-I am was in an interesting -!position, being, you know, four -!hours from New York City.

So I -!was able to go down to New York -to cast men up to Vermont and -created this sanctuary, -!essentially where artists get to -!leave the hustle and bustle of -!New York right and get to bask -in the beauty of Vermont.

-Jarvis Antonio Green is a -!director of theater, an actor, -hes even been a musician -and we share something -!in common, we're both two black -creatives who've spent a good -!chunk of our lives in Vermont.

-I was raised in Vermont, this -!show is made in Vermont & Jarvis -!lived there for nearly 15 years -after growing up in the South -and spending some time -!developing his craft in New York -!City.

Vermont's known for a lot -!of things, nature, maple syrup, -!Bernie Sanders, Ben and Jerry's, -ice cream, but also it's -!overwhelming whiteness.

Vermont -!is the second whitest state in -America, which is why, when -!somewhere around 2016 I started -!seeing stuff like this pop up in -!my feed, I started to ask, What -!in the Shakespearean what in the -Jane Austen -!movies?

Black people?

Frolicking -!in fields.

That is exactly what -!I want people to see when they -think of Jag.

-!It's beautiful.

Jarvis's work in -!the state, it stood out.

He was -!the founder of jag productions, -!a theater company whose mission -was to, quote, serve as an -artistic sanctuary for black -creatives in the American -!theater, the company put on an -!annual New playwrights festival -called jag fest, hosted -workshops and outdoor theater -performances and offered a -musical theater lab, all with -!black and queer artists who came -!up from New York or other parts -!of the country to make theater -!together in the Green Mountains.

-!Over the past decade, Jarvis has -!been a huge part of the artistic -!revolution in our little state, -which is why it devastated so -!many of us when in June of 2024 -after an eight year run, jag -!closed its curtains for good in -!an emailed letter, Jarvis said -that, much like other theater -companies across the country, -jag was a victim of, quote, a -!model that increasingly proves -unsustainable amid shifting -!societal support and financial -pressures.

It all seemed very -!sudden to me.

How did jag get to -!this point?

I remember I reached -!out for an interview with Jarvis -!the moment I heard the news, but -!he wasn't ready to dive into it -then now he is, and what I've -!learned is that at the time his -company closed, so much was -!going on behind the scenes for -Jarvis.

Yes, a lot of it was -financial, but there was more -too.

And Jarvis's experience -!speaks to a reality that a lot -of queer creatives of color -face, that at any moment, -everything can fall apart.

-So June in 2024 I closed Jag.

-July 30, my dog of 11 years -!passed, and then September 1 is -when my relationship ended.

-What happens when the public -perception of your work -thriving, vital and expansive -doesn't totally match the -!reality of everything going on -!behind the scenes?

What happens -!when you're just one life shift -away from things breaking and -!what does it look like to piece -it all together again.

-It felt, you know, I guess a -little bit of my own kind of -abandonment issues.

I'm like, -!Why is everybody leaving?

Yeah, -why -is everybody leaving?

-From Vermont public, this is -!homegoings, a show that invites -you to eavesdrop on candid -conversations with people who -!will challenge what you think.

-You know, I'm Myra Flynn, and -!today a conversation with Jarvis -!Antonio green, a Triple Threat -director, actor and singer -!who found himself just last year -losing so much of what he -!built in his community and his -!personal life in one fell swoop.

-!Today, I'm talking to him about -a different kind of art he's -putting his energy into these -!days, the art of starting over.

-!This is his journey, and this is -!homegoings.

We're a proud member -of the NPR Network.

-Welcome home.

-!First of all, it's just so great -!to see you.

I feel like I know -!you, but don't really know you -that well.

But I feel like I -know you, because every time -!I've like witnessed you, whether -it's like social media or -!anything, you're just like you -!put me at ease.

I feel.

You do -!that with so many people?

Like, -ah, that's true.

And you've -!just, you know, you keep track -of each other in a state like -!Vermont, when we're black folks.

-!So yes, welcome to homegoings.

-Yeah.

Always knew I wanted to -talk with you.

Yeah, I guess, -!like, I want to start out with, -!like, who you are, what you do, -!what is it that you set out to -do in this world?

-!Wow.

Okay, question, that is a -!big question.

Well, my name is -!Jarvis.

I am from the south from -South Carolina.

-Stop it.

Yeah, where's your -accent?

-You know, a lot of theater, a -lot of being in white spaces.

-But yeah, I'm from South -Carolina.

I grew up in the -church, Southern church.

Boy, -!I'm a southern things you never -!know, the things you never know.

-I am a southern church boy.

I -!was the, you know, director of -!the praise dance team.

I believe -!this, yeah, no, I was a church -soloist.

I started singing in -the church like I remember so -!vividly, like my choir director -!at 10 years old, was like, hey, -I want you to learn the solo -that we're going to sing the -song that we're going to sing -!next Sunday.

And it was his eyes -on the sparrow, exactly, -!exactly.

Exactly, yes, okay.

And -!I killed it.

I killed it.

And I -think that was like the first -time I understood, like, the -!power of storytelling, the power -!of song.

And then from there, I -!started just like singing it in -!the church.

And then my a woman -!who was going to my church, who -!was my school librarian, told me -about this boy choir that was -!auditioning young boys, and they -!were going to be traveling all -over the world, singing this -!like classical music.

And I had -!no idea what that meant.

Yeah, -!and she picked me up, took me to -!this audition, and I nailed it.

-And then my world kind of -!shifted in that moment, because, -!like, he was like, Yes, I want -!you to be a part of this choir.

-!And then I went from this, you -!know, very black community, and -then things kind of like, for -!the first time, I, like, learned -!what it meant to like, I don't -!know, essentially be like, not -wealthy, because all of this, -you know, the singers and The -boy choir members were like, -from affluent families.

And I -remember just being like, oh, -there's something different -about my like, I knew that I -!was, like, rich in culture and -!family and things like that, but -like, for the first time, I -learned that, like, Oh, we're -we're poor.

-!I remember this lyric, I think -!it's from Erica Badu that says, -!I remember there in school one -day I learned I was inferior.

-!How did it feel to learn that?

-!Did you feel inferior to these -!boys?

I felt inferior.

You did.

-I did.

I did.

I did because I -think my parents didn't know -what to do with this, that -talent and that gift, and so -!they just allowed me to figure -it out kind of on my own.

So -they couldn't necessarily be -!that support for me, because in -these spaces, I was still the -most talented, -which is a currency in and of -!itself.

What I mean, right?

So -!they weren't necessarily like, -!there for the kind of emotional -things that that I was -navigating in terms of, like, -!what it it felt being like the -!little poor kid versus all the -!kind of white wealthy kids.

So I -did feel a little inferior at -the time, even starting jag -like, I'm now realizing that -since I was 10 years old, up -!until starting jag like, I had -!like, I feel like I was like, I -strayed away from that like, -deep familial cultural -experience.

And was like, in -this, like, very white artsy -!community, white friends, yeah, -!etc, etc.

So like starting Jag, -and now it's like, this big -!coming home to myself, yeah, if -I'm understanding.

-!You, right?

You have a really, -!you have just admitted something -!that a lot of black folks don't -talk about, which is that I -gravitated toward whiteness -because it felt safer.

-Yeah, right.

You.

-I moved to Vermont in 2011 -!which is wild, I know, and also -why Vermont.

-!I started teaching voice lessons -!to folks in Barnard Vermont, and -!there was like this curiosity of -!like, who I was and what I could -bring to the table.

There's a -!curiosity about my craft and my -work.

And in New York, I was -working some in the creative -world, but it was mostly like -!hustling to survive, working at -!work to pay the rent.

Exactly, -!yeah, I was waiting tables, etc, -!etc.

And so it felt good to live -in a community where folks -valued you for your creative -sensibilities, for -your merit.

Basically, yeah, -!yeah, yeah, you brought what I -brought?

Yeah, -that felt really good.

I got -this idea, and I basically -!mimicked it after a lot of the -!arts organizations that I grew -!up in.

And then Kathleen Dolan -!at artistic community art center -was like, Hey, would you be -!interested in starting a theater -!program for me?

And I was like, -!Sure, I did that for two years -and and realized that, like, -yeah, no, I don't want to be -!like, making and building shows -!centered around, like, you know, -!white playwrights.

I want to do -!shows that reflect my humanity, -!and that was my struggle in New -!York.

It was like, you know, a -!lots of colorblind casting, but -!not really, you know, going into -!the heart of the matter of like, -what it means for this black -body to be playing this white -!character to appease to dei was -!like, okay, cool.

Like, you can -!be a black person in Oklahoma, -!but like, you know, like, what -does that mean for the person -!that is in this body portraying -!this character?

Like, you know, -!folks never went into the depths -of that, -!yeah.

I mean, like, the theater -!has been notoriously racist in -!its casting for i We interviewed -Audra McDonald, I think, last -!year, and I know so much to say -!about this.

Yeah, look at your -eyes, literally my episode, -!yeah.

But she was, like, she was -!always being cast as, like, the -!maid or, you know, the slave or -!something as well.

So not even -!just plain white characters, but -!the black ones you got to play.

-!Yes, that wasn't good, exactly, -!but I remember her saying, like -she wanted to kind of reclaim -!those roles and take them back -!and make their bigger presence -!on stage.

So I guess, like, I'm -!curious, how would you go about -!staffing this idea of yours with -black representation in the -second white estate in the -union?

-!Yeah, I think particularly for -the artist, I was in an -!interesting position being, you -!know, four hours from New York -!City, so I was able to go down -!to New York to cast to Vermont -and created this sanctuary, -!essentially where artists get to -!leave the hustle and bustle of -!New York right and get to bask -!in the beauty of Vermont.

White -!folks here get to, you know, not -!just white folks and everybody -!that lives in the Upper Valley -or whatever, get to sort of -experience these art because, -!like, at first, I struggled with -this idea of, like, not using -local talent, you know, -!right?

There's, yeah, a lot of -pressure on local here, yeah?

-!Well, yeah, yeah, in Vermont.

So -you, you, you chose like to -ignore that.

I chose -to ignore that.

I chose to -!ignore that.

And it's also what -!I knew, especially if I wanted -to be producing and making -!things like ASAP, so I would go -down to New York and cast -artists work with a casting -director to cast the shows.

-!Wow.

Essentially amazing, yeah, -I mean, and unheard of, like, -you'd have to know Vermont to -know, like, how rare This is.

-And, you know, some people -!listening be like, oh, there's a -!black theater.

Production in my -!city.

This ain't the city?

No, -!yeah.

It's a hard thing to pull -!off, yeah, which is why you've -!been so I think on my radar for -!so many years, all, all of your -!your photos are just like black -people luxuriating in fields.

-!And I'm like, What?

What in the, -literally, yes, what in the -!Shakespearean?

What in the Jane -Austen movie.

That -is the brand black people -frolicking infield.

That is -exactly what I want people to -!see when they think of Jag.

It's -beautiful.

Yeah, 1234, -one, how was that funded?

You -!know, philanthropy, child, like, -just, you know, the whole -donors, local donors, -foundations, grants, and that -allowed me, for a year and a -!half to put up really beautiful -kind of mind blowing for the -area work and folks wanted to -invest in it.

So that initial -gift helped opened up -opportunities for me, for -!mobile, you know, because, like -!people in philanthropy, people, -they got money, they want to -!give money to successful things.

-!And when folks would come to the -shows like they wanted to -support that and be a part -!of that was any of the funding -!as it continued, part of, like -!the boom of Dei, and some of, oh -my god, -2020, yeah, just cash.

Gosh, -!cash, cash, cash, cash, yes, you -get a theater, yeah.

I think -!particularly the big boom for me -!in 2020, was like my partnership -!with a huge organization in the -Upper Valley, which made, you -know, the work easier, like, -!they had a lot of resources and -!a lot of connections within the -!community, and that connection -helped me to make more -!connections and really kind of -!take jag to this next level.

In -!2019 we produced a show called -!East ice table that moved to New -!York, that kind of put us on the -map.

I mean, it was just like -!this combination of, like, all -!the things, really good theater, -!it being outdoors, food, news, -like, it was just a really -lovely it was lovely.

Yes, it -!was lovely.

So all those things -!combined really made a beautiful -experience.

And my thing as a -producer, as a director, it's -like, yes, you're gonna get -!really great theater, but, like, -!it's all the elements from the -!moment you walk into the space -that, like, makes the theater -experience great for me, like -!the people that you're around, -!like, you know, the lobby, all -!of that, like, I like for it to -feel like a, I don't know, -immersive, -!yeah, it's gonna say that, yeah, -!it should feel like church.

It -!should feel like it should feel -like -it is like, if you're gonna -!gather people, if you're gonna -gather 200 300 people, folks -should leave changed.

I i, -so I love this image of black -!people frolicking in the fields, -!and I just wonder, like, I don't -know that curation, right?

Of -just like everything is just -like wonderful and beautiful, -!and like going so well, and even -hearing you talk, it sounds -like, I believe you like, it -!sounds like, like it was dope, -!and, oh no, I wonder, I wonder, -what a struggle -at I wonder, -what if there's more to the -story.

-!Gosh, behind the scenes, really -!interesting conversations with -funders.

Basically, things -!started to go south.

They pulled -out big.

That's big.

We were -getting ready for the third -!season and, like, kind of got an -email that was just like, we -can't do this.

-Wow, anymore that must have -gutted you.

Gutted, yeah, -!gutted, gutted, gutted.

And your -mind goes to all these places -like, Sure, yes, yeah, yes, -!yeah.

And we were coming out of -the pandemic, and Biden was -elected now, and -you know, time to lose that -money, -!yes, yeah, yes.

And so that was -a big shock.

And then we lose -!our outdoor space, and then we -kind of lose our sort of home -indoor space, yeah.

And so -things got really strange for -!us.

It felt, you know, I guess, -!a little bit of my own kind of -abandoned.

Issues.

I'm like, -!Why is everybody leaving?

Where -!are we?

Yeah, why is everybody -leaving?

-And so backtrack, in 2022 or -!three, I got the biggest burnout -I've ever had.

I didn't know -!what it was.

I woke up.

We had a -!fundraiser in the fall of 2022 I -!woke up one day and I felt like -!my life force was, like, gone.

-Like, I would like, get up, I -!would like, get dressed, and I -would have my heart, would -!raise, I wouldn't want to leave -!the house.

And I was like, What -!in the hell is going on?

And at -this point, I had just been -!going, going going going, going, -!running this organization.

And I -!remember calling my doctor, and -!then I meet with a psychiatrist, -and they're like, this sounds -like this sounds like -depression.

And then I had to -!get on, like, some SSRIs to kind -!of calm me down.

And I remember -talking to a board member and -!saying, like, hey, like, I need -!to take a break.

And this board -!member was like, Well, if you, -!like, take a break, like, there -won't be an organization, -yeah, because you are, you're -the identity, you're the -identity.

Your identity is -!wrapped up in this identity, and -you are not separate anymore, -yeah?

-!And at this point, it's probably -!year six or seven, and I'm just -like, which is a -!long by the way, kind of amazing -for any -!project.

Thank you.

Thank you.

-But, like, I was also like, -okay, you know, within this -organization, we're talking -about the we're talking about -!what it means to co lead.

We're -!talking about what it means to -!build community.

You are about -that life of like, centering -!black and marginalized voices, -!etc, etc.

So it's like, right?

-!Don't think about this just for -me.

Think about all of the -!artists like, let's figure out -ways to make this thing work, -not just because of me.

Like, -there, there are more voices -like mine that like, benefit -!from this work.

So I was like, -!I'm like, why am I showing up to -the board meetings?

Why am I, -why are all of us here?

Like, -!you know, why do I have a board -!of like, eight people?

Why do I -have staff if I can't take a -break.

-Yeah, that's that math is not -math, yeah, -!yeah.

And so I think part of my -!superpower is that, like people -!do love me and care for me, and -!I think that the folks that were -involved were doing it for me -!versus the bigger right picture, -!right, right?

And that love is -very stressful, love as well, -!because it's about, it's about -!loving you, but it's also makes -you a bit of a token in a -!situation where, like, You are -!the beloved black person, yeah, -!in the town and, like, not the -!work, yeah, you were presenting.

-I was, I was actually kind of -shocked that, like, no one -fought harder for it to stay.

-That's how I knew that it was -!like, oh, like, Oh, we're just -doing it because, because of -!Jarvis, right?

And I'm like, Oh, -you don't want this for your -town, right?

You don't, you -!don't.

You don't want to, like, -have this here as, like, a -permanent sort of thing, you -!know.

And people were showing up -!and doing the thing because of -me, not because of, like, the -!cultural impact and like being a -very white town, and like -needing and wanting something -like this, like the -reasons you started it.

The -reason I started it wasn't -because you, yeah, and -!so, like, I thought that, like, -!when, when we lost those venues, -that people would literally, -like, be in the streets, -!essentially, of just being like, -!Okay, we got to figure out how -to turn this around.

But -!everything still kind of fell on -!my shoulders, and I'm just like, -well, I don't need to care.

I -don't need to -!carry all of this.

You can't.

I -cannot.

And your body was -telling you, -my body was telling me.

I -!decided to wrap it up in 2024 I -!remember vividly.

The of like we -!were going in circles at a board -!meeting on like, what, what was -!the thing that needed to take us -to the next level?

And it was -!like, oh, we need to really amp -up our committees.

Like -!committee structures.

We need to -have all of these committees -!you were acting too in your own -Yeah.

-And so at that moment, I was -!like, Oh no, no, I can't manage, -!run this board, raise the money, -manage the staff like I just -can't.

I told them that I'm -!like, I can't do this anymore.

I -!need to, I need to be done.

And -I think a lot of it was tied -!into my personal life as well.

-What was going on with you -personally?

Dine, -!yes, so like, I was in a serious -!relationship with a person for -almost six years.

We were -!engaged.

I got engaged about a -!year ago, around this time, wow, -yeah.

June 14 was when I was -proposed to of 2024, -!happy engagement, diversity, I -know, but -so, but was this person there -!watching you do all go through -!all of this?

Yes, yes.

That's a -!really Yes.

That's an intimate -yeah thing, especially the -burnout and the depression, -yeah, all of that.

So, -and it's, it's interesting -!you're talking about, like the -!white would you know, when you -!were mentioning about, like, me -!having access to whiteness and -!white people and like, feeling -!like I'm safe and stuff there, -!and like, part of this closing -!jag was, like, I had the safety -in this, Like, white partner, -!because they, um, very well off, -!and they're gonna finish their -!PhD program, and we were gonna -go out into the world, get -!married, have children and go to -!move essentially.

So I was like, -knowing that and knowing the -!pressures of my job.

I was like, -!okay, cool.

Like, this is a good -time, right?

-!You're like, I can afford to end -!this.

Yes, this, this production -I've worked, like, my life on -!basically, yes, right?

Because -you had that safety net.

Yes, -!oh, the white safety net.

Yeah.

-So what happened next?

-We both did proposals to each -other.

I saw -that it was so nerdy and so -!cute.

Thank you.

Like, you guys -both, like, I got engaged.

-!Here's my ring in, like, a week -!or daily.

I don't know there was -another one.

There's another -!proposal.

You already engaged.

-!It happened once, yeah, but it -was really sweet.

Yeah, -!so in August, we're now engaged.

-The world knows, I close Jag, -we're starting to plan a -!wedding.

Yeah, we go to Ireland -for a trip, just like an -engagement -!trip, yes?

So we're in Ireland.

-!It's like, day 10.

I'm a little -!exhausted.

There are children.

-They're like, we're waking up -every day.

That's -!hilarious.

There are children.

-!There are children there.

I love -K, -!yes.

But children be children.

-!We're all in one Airbnb, and day -!10, I'm like, I I need a breath, -!like I am.

This is a lot for me.

-And I I remember, yeah, I -remember saying that, like, I -I'm gonna go, I'm gonna meet -y'all in Dublin.

That was the -!next stop.

I'm gonna meet y'all -!in Dublin.

I'm gonna get a hotel -for the night and meet you in -!Dublin, and then I'll meet up at -!y'all the Airbnb, which is like -!a block away.

I made sure to get -!something close so I meet them -!in Dublin.

My part, my fiance at -!the time, we stay in the hotel -!the night.

They get up the next -morning, go on a walk, come -!back, lie in bed, and I'm like, -What's something's up?

Like, -!what's going on?

And they were -like, I don't think this is -!going to work anymore.

And so I -!like, Get up, like, I sit up in -!bed, and I immediately go into -!like, Okay, I know this is a lot -you were planning, a lot.

-Wedding.

This trip is a lot.

-!Let's continue our trip.

We were -gonna leave the family at the -end of the trip, go to London -and Paris.

We had tickets, we -!had hotels, we had show tickets.

-!Let's go to London and let's go -!to Paris, and let's talk about -!this, even if you feel this way, -like let's get away.

-But your immediate question -!wasn't why.

It was like, let's -just keep it going.

Keep it -!pushing Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, -all right, -!yeah.

And I think we got to sort -!of a Yeah, no.

I that's a really -!great question, because I think -!part of what was difficult was -like me trying to figure out -what the why was and the Why -!didn't come until later, the Why -did not come until later.

So -!they get up, pack their things -!and go to their parents Airbnb.

-!I am, like, sitting in my hotel, -!like, just kind of in shock.

And -then I I realized I was, oh, -they have my passport.

And I -!called him, like, Hey, can you -!bring me my passport?

I already -did.

It's at the front desk.

-!Stop, yeah, and again, did not -see any of this coming.

I -already did this at the front -!desk.

And then I called back.

I -!was like, hey, so they called me -!and was like, Are you going to -London?

And I was like, well, -!this, that trip was for the two -!of us.

Are we going?

Like, are -we going?

No, I'm not going -!well.

I'm like, well, I'll come -!back home.

I'll take the return -!flight from Dublin back to the -!US.

They were like, I've already -!changed my flight.

I'm getting -!on the 10 o'clock flight with my -family.

-!Wow.

Yeah, so stark, yeah, yeah.

-!And so I go to London and Paris -!by yourself, by myself.

I'm in -London.

I have a friend that -!lives in Paris, and X actually, -!and I saw him, and he showed me -around Paris, and was, like, -!very supportive.

I come back.

I -!am bopping around in Airbnbs in -!Vermont while I'm trying to like -Like, no one talks about what -it's like to like, like, deal -with grief.

And also have to -like and like deep hurt.

And -!also have to be organizing your -!way forward and out like I was, -!like, dealing with all of this, -!I'm like, Oh, I have to figure -out where I'm going to live, -!right?

We had a home together, -and you still don't have an -!answer as to what is happening -!well.

And yes, it was, it's been -maddening.

I know it was -maddening, but it was like -!things that we talked about in -our relationship of like, you -!can be a little analytical, you -can be a little critical at -!times.

And yes, I do have that -nature.

I make theater, you -!know?

I wish you can be a little -bit more supportive.

And so, -!like, I was like, Well, did any -of this change since you -!proposed, right?

No, no, no, but -I think things just got to a -fever -!pitch with the proposal in the -wedding, the -!wedding and and feelings, and a -!lot of it was internalized.

And -I, I know one of my I don't -know, like, problems or -whatever, is that like?

I can -have a really good argument.

-Oh, -it's bad, it's bad, it's bad, -!it's bad.

And so then they would -not want to address things -!engage with, engage with because -!I could, I could take it to the -moon and back, -!also theater, yeah, yeah, yeah, -yeah.

So -!a lot of things they would not -!disclose, and so they had to sit -!with a lot of that until it was -just too much.

You -!sound so understanding of their -purview and perspective right -now.

Were you pissed -I was fucking -so I'm just recognizing like -!you've had two major heartbreaks -!happen around how.

Distant were -they from one another?

Jag -closed in 2024 -June of 2024 September 1 is -!when, so June in 2024 I closed -Jag, and then September 1 is -when my relationship ended.

-I really, really want to cry.

-!That's a lot.

Yeah, it is.

It's -a lot.

And you you were, it -sounds like already kind of -!fragile, and is like fraying at -the seams in this point.

So I -gotta ask, like, how was your -mental health going after the -personal breakup?

Did it did -!it get worse?

It got worse?

It -got worse, and I'll be -!completely honest, like I just -came through a really kind of -!dark time, like in this breakup.

-!I gained weight, started taking -!ozempic, had crazy side effects, -wow, got vertigo, and it was, -!you know, it was, it was awful.

-!And so, like, all these things -!are just kind of coming up, like -!in the breakup, like, oh yeah, -!no, I have to deal with a little -!bit of my own internalized fat -!phobia.

And just like, what it -!means to, like, heal in, like, -!in isolation, yet, like people -!are around me, for sure, and but -!this is, like, this work I have -to do, -like, on your own, on my own.

-!Can nobody do it?

No, you can do -it.

So, how did you start the -work?

-!I started the work by becoming -sober.

-!Good place to start.

Yeah, did -it change a lot for -you?

It changed a lot for me?

-!Yeah, I was numbing.

You know, I -didn't have, like, a huge -!drinking problem, but when I did -!drink, I would go to the ends of -the world.

And you know, I am -!just learning how to deal with -!my own like emotions.

I have to -!learn what it means to deal with -the racing thoughts I have to -!learn to deal with.

You know, so -!much that comes up by having the -!psych time and space right now, -!to not be distracted.

And a lot -!comes up fear.

I a lot of there.

-!There's been a lot of fear that -!I've had to excavate out of me, -!like no one's no one's around to -save me, no saviors around.

I -can't lean on to a partner to -!make me feel whole, to make me -!feel safe, okay, like I have to -cultivate those things on my -own.

I have a really deep -meditation practice, right?

-!Yeah, right now, lots of breath -work.

-!And you moved, I moved and you -!moved out of the country, out of -the country.

Listen, not that -I'm like, a crazy Instagram -stalker of you, but I like, -!that's where I see all your your -!life happening.

And I was like, -You're in Montreal.

-I'm in Montreal.

I'm in -!Montreal.

Why Montreal?

Okay, so -why Montreal is that it's far -!away enough.

But I also have a -!friend that lives there, Natalie -!batchville, who was on my board -when I first started Jag.

She -was doing a post doctorate at -!Dartmouth, black Haitian woman, -feminist theory, you know, a -!ceramicist, amazing person.

So I -!wanted to be around someone that -!could, like, give me a warm hug -and, like, put me in, like, -!intentional communities.

She was -!the main reason.

To be honest, -she was the main reason.

-And so, what are you doing in -Montreal?

Like, like, I -am, like, yeah, yeah, I'm -!writing a book which is wild.

Do -you just try on -anything that looks like art?

-!Yes, I've heard music, theater -!production.

I've never written -!a book.

I won a quarter million -dollar grant.

How -!are you getting I need to hang -!out with you more.

You seem to -!just have luck with that.

That's -amazing to -!write this book.

Now.

Who gets -!funding to write a book before a -book is written?

-You do way.

So -!I'm writing this book about my -!experience here my methodology, -!how I develop new plays, how I -center wellness and movement -!around my theater practices, how -!food is so integral to the way I -make and create.

One of my -chapters is about the not for -!profit industrial complex, and -all the systems that are in -!place and how they are not the -greatest systems for the work -that I was doing.

They were -created for something very -specific back in the day, but -like you know, to be doing -transformative theater making -!from a black and queer lens like -!those systems aren't necessarily -!really.

Great.

So I write about -that, yeah, you look -!well, thank you.

You sound well -and you look well, thank you.

-!Thank girl.

Oh, because it has -been a time, yes, -literally, the heart, one of -!the, like, the hardest moments -!of my life, and even on my way -!here, because I was with my ex, -somatic things came up for me -again, and I think -!my body wanted to revert back to -!that life, when there's there, -!was like, there's so much growth -!that has happened, and so, you -know, leaving I felt like a -!sense of loss.

But I'm like, I -!also was just like, asking the -!universe for my energy back.

I'm -!like, I give me my energy back.

-!Because, you know, when you've -!known someone for so long, and -!even though we are friends, when -!you do jump back in, you know, -!your body wants to, you know, go -!back to that life, and I'm like, -yeah, -!no, kind of Yeah, forgiven each -other.

And -yeah, yeah, we have forgiven -!each other.

I've forgiven her.

-She came out as trans a month -after we split up, and she's -!going through HRT, wow and all -those things.

And so was -this happening, like, as an -!undercurrent in the breakup at -all?

Or, like, I -!mean, I think in hindsight, yes, -!but like, no, no.

I mean, they -!were always a feminine person.

-!Wore dresses sometimes, but you -!know, to, you know, she tells me -now that she feels like she's -always been a girl, but you -!know, we never talked about her -!transness, right, when we were -together.

-If you had stayed together, -would that have been an issue -!for you to be?

I don't think so.

-Yeah, -like, I could be in a -!relationship with her as she's, -like, transitioned, because I -know who that person is.

But -!like, if I just met her on the -!street as a woman, I don't think -right, I would -!be but like you would be willing -to go through that transition -!with somebody and love them for -Yes, who they are, no matter -!what correct a lot of the people -!that ended up helping you with -!jag and the person who ended up -!proposing to you.

These are the -!people who broke your heart, and -!these are white people.

And so I -!just kind of want to, like close -!that loop of the initial trust -!in the safety of white people in -!the south, now that you've been -!through all this, do you trust -white people less, -damn right?

Yeah, yeah, -!yes, yes, yes, if I can get my -!brain to understand that more in -my actions, you know, and be -!clear about understanding that -for like the people that I -engage with moving forward, -!yeah, no, I do.

I do trust white -people less, but I've also -!created a life, and are living -!in a place where there are a lot -of white people, right?

Which -makes I have to check myself -with that, because it just I -still gotta engage with the -!world.

I still gotta be out in -!the world, and I can't just be -!like hiding, not trusting people -!and not being out in the world.

-So it's complicated.

It's -complicated, I think thing, I -!think I'm excited for my like, -!what's after Montreal, and being -in an area where there's just -more black and brown folk -that'll -feel good.

Yeah, yeah, as -!somebody who's been through so -!much in such a short period of -time, who is like sitting in -!front of me, like keeping life -beautiful and positive and -productive and writing a book -and making future plans and -!cuddling with your ex in a way -!that you forgave them.

And I'm -like, could you just tell the -rest of us your secret sauce?

-!Like, what is this art you have?

-Of like, moving on, starting -over with so much holistic -!sensibility, you know?

Wow.

It's -really cool.

-Wow.

God.

God, -okay, like to thank God.

Yes, -yes.

-Spirit, spirit spirit spirit -!spirit surrender, calling out, -!asking, I like letting like my -!moon is in Virgo, I organize, I, -plan i and this has been the -!biggest lesson of like girl, let -!go of that survival shit.

Let it -go like you are enough if you -don't do another friggin -organization, organizing like -you are enough, -!the core of me is just a loving, -sweet person, and I try to -!really lean into that love and -!into that joy as much as I can, -because like that, that's my -!survival.

That is my survival.

-!Thanks so much for joining us.

-!If you want to continue to be a -!part of the homegoings family, -!stay in touch@homegoings.co and -subscribe.

To the homegoings -podcast.

Wherever you listen, -take good care you.