>> From WXXI News, this is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made on stage in Rochester when Hamilton brought the house down, as sometimes theater critic David Andreatta notes for City magazine, there's nothing new about that.

Hamilton is now an American theater mainstay, and it's been in Rochester before.

So what is new about it?

Here's Andreatta writing for City Quote.

What can be said of this production that couldn't have been said of any other is that it is the best timed version of Hamilton to date.

That's not only because the country's 250th birthday is around the corner, but also because Americans are perhaps as divided about their future as those who are fomenting revolution.

In 1776, Hamilton last swept through Rochester in 2022.

This time its third arrival coincides with growing political violence and culture wars being waged in the name of patriotism.

It also dovetails nicely with the American Revolution.

The provocative six part documentary by Ken Burns that launched this week, The Uprising has been mythologized as some something that unified Americans.

But as the film emphasizes, it sprung from deeply polarized people with selfish and selfless interests.

End quote.

Meanwhile, The Wizard of Oz is on the big screen.

That's also not new.

What is new is the long awaited sequel to last year's Wicked Part one.

Wicked for good wraps up the prequel story with an origin story for the Wicked Witch of the West and the critics.

Not all, but some have been rather brutal on this one.

Here's probably the most brutal writing for The New Yorker.

Justin Chang's review is titled wicked for good is very, very bad.

He writes, quote, this, as far as I can tell, is why wicked for good exists so that the events of bombs novel and the 1939 film forever conjoined in the public imagination, can be maneuvered into position.

But must they be maneuvered so clumsily and with such a glaring absence of brains or heart?

In time we will be introduced to Dorothy Gale, queue a few flashes of gingham and force fed origin stories for her traveling companions, which range from the nonsensically contrived to the gratuitously traumatizing.

Even if your children can stomach the Tin Man's arrival, the Scarecrow's cornfield crucifixion might be the last straw on stage.

All this narrative retconning has a breezy, behind the scenes cleverness, as if the story were being slyly fleshed out in the margins, onscreen and on full display.

It's close to an abomination.

End quote I don't think he liked it.

However, writing for city, Joe Lester argues that sure, the film is maybe not great, but some of the individual performances are great and the final product is good, and sometimes good is good enough.

And we're going to talk about that this hour.

Our critic guest this hour.

And we're going to invite the the audience.

If you've seen Hamilton, if you've seen the new wicked, if you're fans, if you're not fans, if you think either is an abomination or something in between, you can join the conversation this hour.

Joe Lester and David Andreatta, city freelance contributors, welcome to you both.

>> Hello there.

>> Thanks for having us.

>> You've seen Hamilton.

>> I have.

>> You have not seen the wicked.

>> I have not seen any of the wicked, no I haven't.

Okay.

All right.

I'm stuck with the 1939 Wizard of Oz.

You're gonna stay there.

I'm going to stay there.

Okay.

>> I just recently learned maybe Joe knows this.

There was, like, a 1980s return to Oz.

That was kind of a dark fantasy.

And the.

And the novels were kind of darker, too.

They've all been sort of scrubbed up and kind of squeaky cleaned for the television.

>> Yeah, but wicked, the book, that wicked the musical and wicked the movies are based on is pretty dark.

It's dark like fairy tale, dark.

>> And wicked.

The book is like a 1990s.

>> Book.

>> 95, 95.

>> So everything, all the source material is darker.

Why can't we handle it?

Why does it have to be so clean?

>> I, I don't even know that this is clean.

Okay?

Like, I, I think wicked the musical is a little shinier maybe than other versions, especially Return to Oz, which, if you saw it at any point in your life, has probably given you nightmares because.

Terrifying.

for children rated PG, Disney was like, we're just we want to just crawl right into your brain forever.

but I think I think there is some dark darkness to wicked itself.

especially in the second act.

It definitely is dark.

It's the turn of Elphaba into, you know, accepting that she's the Wicked Witch of the West.

so there is a little darkness, but it's, you know, it's still a family tale.

It's still a tale about friendship.

It's still a tale about love.

So it can't, it can't quite get rid of all the soft edges around it.

>> Well, we're going to come back to wicked for good in a moment here.

But because both of our guests have seen Hamilton at some point here, I am curious to know if if there's agreement that this if you haven't seen Hamilton, this would be a timely moment for it more than perhaps any other.

I thought that was an interesting point.

You're making, David.

>> Thank you.

so full disclosure, I had never seen Hamilton before this version here in Rochester.

and.

I almost hesitate to say this because I consider myself a fan of the theater, and I've been involved in local theater.

but I don't care for musicals that much, and.

>> I, I mean, like, is that is that because you were sort of born without.

>> A soul?

>> Are you Canadian?

Is there something.

>> Canadian.

>> Like Canadians.

>> Like musicals?

Canadians?

I think Canadians like musicals.

>> I'm trying to find something to blame this on.

>> you know, I just I always just found, like, the breaking into song a little a little corny, and, you know, I could still be swept up in the pageantry of it all.

the choreography is incredible.

Not just of Hamilton, but other musicals I've seen.

Like, I can appreciate them.

I'm just.

That's not where I would normally spend my my theater going.

Dollars.

so when city editor Leah Stacy asked if I'd be interested in reviewing this, I thought to myself, geez, you know, I've never seen it before.

secondly, not necessarily a fan of musicals, but at the same time, I said, hold on.

This is a cultural phenomenon that, you know, I'm going to pass up a free ticket to see this and, you know, and, share my thoughts on it.

And it was a little daunting, though, because I didn't know what else I could possibly say about this show that hasn't already been said.

You know, whether good or bad.

it seems like it is.

It is just a runaway hit.

And every city it goes to, I mean, even the quote, unquote poor reviews are, are still glowing.

there's nothing that can be said about this show that, that that's negative.

And and likewise, what am I going to do?

Just keep on heaping on the praise, you know, and throw out the, the review buzzwords.

It's captivating, spellbinding.

You're going to see it again and again.

No, I didn't want to go there.

And I thought, well, you know, what angle could I possibly take here?

And it dawned on me as I was watching the show that there were a lot of messages in the in, in the production and in the historical period in which it takes place that are resonating today.

And that's where I chose to focus the review most of all, which is why I say I you know, I could imagine seeing it 15 years or, sorry, ten years ago when it when it debuted, that felt, at least for me.

to be a more hopeful time in, in America than than this one is a less divided time.

I mean, we we sure learned by a year or two later how divided the country really was.

but I don't think it dawned on me at that time.

And I can imagine seeing it at its premiere ten years ago.

seeing it in, say, 2019 or 2022. where, you know there was a, the Biden administration was back in, was back in office and I think there was this sense probably a false sense, obviously a false sense that, you know, we're not as divided as we as we thought we were.

And, you know, we're back to, quote, unquote, normal.

Now, this is, you know, the early 2020s and now it's it has just been flipped on its head.

So to me this is a time this is a time to to go see it.

If you haven't I would strongly urge anyone to go see it.

Even if you don't like musicals like me, you're gonna love it.

>> You loved it.

>> Loved it, loved it.

I, I was just saying to Joanna and before that, before the show, that I've had an occasion in the week or so since seeing it to to be a little down and and when I'm down, I just pop in the.

You'll be back by King George the.

>> Third.

That's.

>> Boosts my spirits.

I'm telling you.

>> I mean, Joe, if you're going to pick one.

Right.

That's probably.

>> It's not a bad one.

It's pretty good.

I mean, is there a bad one in the bunch?

Probably not.

But that isn't a particularly good one.

I think.

>> so.

Okay, I'm.

I'm glad that you admitted you liked it, by the way.

I didn't know if you would have, like, the courage to admit that you liked a musical.

So good for you.

>> Well, I'm growing the more you know.

>> Watch this.

You're going to love wicked.

Actually, I would be surprised, but, you know, you never know.

but on the subject of Hamilton I. David, I got to say, the the themes that you draw on watching the American Revolution this week and listening to a lot of Ken Burns interviews, by the way, he should talk to every class in America.

I know he's busy, but we should just.

We got to just get that guy in front of every audience because he makes he makes you want to run through a wall for this country in a way that's really hard to do.

Here's what I mean by that.

He is not afraid to say we haven't lived up to our ideals.

We had amazing founding ideas, and we've never really been quite that.

But the ideas are exceptional.

American exceptionalism were those ideas that that those not just smart men in Philadelphia thinking smart thoughts, but people who are fighting their own family members?

It was a civil war, wasn't just a Revolutionary war.

It was a civil war.

It was a world war.

There were interests around the world in it, and it was a world impactful war.

And because it was a civil war, I don't buy that we're close to civil war in this country.

Although I don't like even talking about it.

I don't even like the fact that, like, well, are we?

But if you feel like we are, or if you feel like we've never been closer, I do think Hamilton's an interesting watch for you because it really grabs you that way, doesn't it?

>> It absolutely does.

And there are a number of lines in it that if you can catch them and that's admittedly sometimes difficult with the, the, the rapid pace and the hip hop and the.

Yeah.

And the tempo of it which maybe is why I like the King George song.

It's just so, so easy to.

>> Close it down.

>> It slows.

>> It down a little bit.

>> Darkest whitest song in the.

>> Exactly.

But that was.

>> Made for.

>> You, Dave.

>> And that was done on purpose, though.

I mean, it's to differentiate the old world from.

>> The new.

Yeah, of.

>> Course they did a great job with that.

But you know, there are a number of, of, of lines in the in the production that I think resonate with exactly what you're talking about.

You know, Ken Burns saying that these ideals that, that we set out to try to reach we haven't reached them.

It's okay to acknowledge that Thomas Jefferson in the show, I actually wrote down a few of the lines here that didn't make it into my review.

But, you know, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

you know, we shouldn't settle for we fought for these ideals.

We shouldn't settle for anything less.

you know, he certainly had some selfless interests and a lot of selfish interests.

There's no doubt.

and America, even then, was an imperfect place, being run by imperfect people.

Hamilton, you know, not to spoil anything, but was.

>> I think you.

>> Can spoil it.

Yeah, it was, it was, it was it was a bit of a cad.

>> I mean, you know he, he had extramarital affairs and and he wasn't he certainly wasn't perfect.

>> Why do you hate this country?

>> Right.

>> You know, your typical Canadian just can't accept American greatness.

No, I mean, like, I joke because so much of the recent debates about teaching history or even the reaction by some to the Ken Burns documentary, I mean, like the way I've responded to Ken Burns stuff is like, listen to five minutes of an interview with him.

He loves this country.

Yes, like, that guy loves America.

>> Absolutely.

>> He loves the idea of America.

He loves America.

He understands it's okay to be imperfect and we do need to get better.

But like, that guy is not like well, this country sucks.

It's always sucked.

And we're not worthy.

He loves America.

And yet he gets because he mentioned the Haudenosaunee people are like, well, I guess it's a woke documentary.

Like, oh, I guess you mentioned the Hamilton's a cad.

>> Yeah.

>> That's what makes people real, man.

>> Right?

It does.

>> You don't want theater of hagiography.

You don't want hagiography.

Critics don't want hagiography.

>> Right.

And, you know I watched the entire documentary over the course of the last, the last week.

I loved it.

And you know something that struck me?

It's not necessarily.

earth shattering, but it was something that, frankly, I'd kind of forgotten from my history lessons was that, you know I believe that the numbers weren't don't quote me on this, but, you know, there were 5000 enslaved.

black Americans who joined the revolutionary cause and something like 12,000 who joined the British cause.

because freedom to them meant different things.

And, you know, where they saw I mean, that that in and of itself is both on one hand, selfless and also selfish.

You know, you're looking to, of course, escape.

the enslaved slavery.

So it goes to show that, like Hamilton, there were so many moving parts and so many different people with so many different interests.

as you know, who who were in charge of you know, fomenting the revolution and, you know, crafting the constitution.

Eventually.

>> Joe, does that give you any comfort when things do feel sort of fragile right now?

Does does a show like Hamilton and that historical lens give you any comfort?

>> yeah.

I mean, I think art always does for me.

I think and I think especially as, as Dave writes, you know, in his review about, you know, watching it now versus maybe watching it earlier and the fact that it was sort of produced and, and came together during a different administration and a different time.

you, you feel that, but it doesn't it doesn't feel antiquated when you watch it.

It doesn't feel of a different time.

It just you view it through a different lens for sure.

I think I also think there's no wrong time to watch Hamilton or to maybe, like, maybe no wrong time to like, watch a musical.

so maybe I'm slightly biased in that.

In that respect.

>> You're in the pro musical camp.

>> I am extremely pro musical.

we don't have enough time during.

Do you.

>> Break into song?

Like, at dinner?

Sometimes.

>> Oh, yeah.

My family does not care for it, but I, you know, I was raised on, you know, old movie musicals, West Side Story, Oklahoma.

Like, that's what I grew up watching as a child.

so it's that I turned out this way is not surprising to anybody.

>> So my thing one in my family, my oldest son he.

>> You're going with thing one and thing two.

Now.

That's great.

>> That's great.

Yeah.

You know that's an odd to the nod to the classics there.

I'm telling you, Joe, he thought I wrote the song.

Well, this is what?

When he wouldn't get up for out of bed in the morning, I would knock on his door and say, oh, what a beautiful morning.

And he would go, shut up.

Oh, what a beautiful day.

And he would go, not another word.

He thought I made that up for him, you know, he thought that that's, you know, teenagers think the word.

>> Was it the singing or was.

>> It the song?

>> Probably.

It was the incredible baritone and just the really pitch perfect performance.

Every time that he thought, this must be a dad.

>> Classic dad.

>> Or it's gotta be a dad original.

So that's when I break into song is to annoy my older boy.

but never at dinner.

but let's let's for a moment, let's finish up a little bit of a Hamilton discussion.

Although I've got some emails that we'll read in our second half hour.

Listeners, if you've got thoughts on Hamilton or Wicked or anything else, or why David Andreatta is missing something in his life.

>> Why do you hate Joy?

Why do you hate joy?

Why do you hate joy?

>> You're not a fan of joy.

how do we how do you get Dave Andreatta to love musicals?

What could Dave see besides Hamilton that will open his eyes?

What's the next one?

Oh, boy.

Joe's going to give us, like, the the rehab.

>> I can't.

>> Wait the intervention for Dave Andreatta on musicals.

You can weigh in their Connections at wxxi.org.

Join the chat on YouTube there.

there's even a note on a scarecrow crucifixion.

Crucifixion, which we're going to get to coming up here.

but on the subject of Hamilton, I will just say this to kind of put a fine point on Dave's point.

I'm really glad that you not only acknowledged that it's tough to write reviews on something that's been covered a lot, but it's also important to understand historical parallels.

And when you feel the despair of looking around going, it's never been worse.

It's never been worse.

It's that is just recency bias.

We have all kinds of biases, and one of the strongest is thinking that your moment in history is unlike any other.

And there are historical analogs or even times where it was worse.

There were bombings in the 1970s.

Political violence was worse in the 60s and 70s.

We were more fractured then.

So I just I guess I want to say to you, I know you have been feeling a little fractured.

I think it has been worse.

I think it has been worse.

I think it was worse than the time of Hamilton.

I think it was worse than probably the 60s and 70s.

I'm going to be an optimist.

>> I think.

I think it was worse than two.

And which is all the more reason to draw inspiration from lines that, you know, put upon Eliza Hamilton one of her songs is, you know, look around.

isn't it wonderful to be alive right now?

even in this turmoil, at this terrible time in history, where your country is besieged by war and the future is anything but certain, you can still find joy in the moment.

And.

I hope.

I hope we all can.

And and, you know, flipping King George's tune on its head you know, don't throw away this thing we had.

>> Right.

>> 100% with you there.

I hope you melted it quiet uptown.

By the way.

I hope.

that I've got Kelly Clarkson's version of Quiet Uptown is even better, Dave.

>> Okay, I'll.

I'll have to listen.

>> You are going to be singing that around the house, man.

>> You know, speaking of of this the the educational portion of this I had, I was lucky enough to get two tickets, and I thought, you know, who would really, really appreciate this?

I teach a journalism 101 class at the University of Rochester, and I have a British exchange student, and I asked him if he'd ever seen Hamilton.

He had not.

So I took him as as an experience for him.

He absolutely loved it.

And I said, you know, I can't wait to talk to you about when when the show is over about, you know, what you learned about the American Revolution.

He said, oh, that'll be a short conversation.

We didn't really learn anything about it.

And I said, why is that?

He's like, do you know how big the you know, him telling me this is the student telling telling the professor, right.

do you know how big the British Empire was?

If we had to have a course on every single empire that we lost.

you know, it would take up.

It would take up all of high school.

So I think he was being a little facetious, but he was able to glean from the story line snippets of American history that he wasn't able to that that he didn't learn in school.

And I think anyone that's interested can enjoy that.

>> Yeah.

Because one of the criticisms that are often leveled at teachers is that, well, the American Revolution or the Civil War or any conflict is taught in such little depth, but you don't have a lot of time.

And there are standardized tests that you have to get students prepared for.

And there's a certain kind of track that you can't get off, so that it's interesting to hear the British perspective on this.

>> Yeah, it.

>> Sure was.

Yeah, yeah.

All right.

So, here we go.

Here, I'm going to take a phone call.

Joe, get ready with your Dave intervention idea.

The next musical.

You're already ready with this, we're going to see what Ellie in Fairport has to say about an intervention for Dave with the next musical.

What's it going to be, Ellie?

>> Hi, there.

So my suggestion for Dave next is to visit Bandstand the Musical.

This is a show from 2015.

It was off.

it was started at the Paper Mill Playhouse in New Jersey in 2015.

And then came to Broadway in 2017, and the show is actually really unique in that it is another historical one.

This is a show that talks about veterans, a group of veterans coming home to the United States after World War II, all having served in different ways.

And they're trying to figure out what to do with their lives, and they're dealing with PTSD and survivor's guilt.

But the thing that all ties them together is they all happen to be musicians.

And so they they enter and a patriotic song contest, and it is a fascinating story.

It is beautifully done, and it touches on PTSD in a way that you would never expect a musical to do so.

And it does it in a beautiful and moving way.

And I think that is the perfect way to kind of lure Dave in to.

>> The brighter side of things.

>> Because he when David, when you said you were having a down week and then you went and listened to musicals, this is what you should be doing all the time.

>> 100% when you're at.

>> The gym, I want you listening to musicals.

>> Okay?

Anyway, I'm going to walk you through my playlist of songs to work out to.

>> I'm going to be walking through my door tonight just to.

>> There you go.

That's very West Side Story.

I would like that to happen.

Joe is kind of impressed.

I gotta say.

>> okay.

>> Thank you.

Ellie.

>> So, Ellie, a couple.

>> Things here.

>> I think the worst musical for Dave.

Ellie is going to be cats.

Let's make him watch it, though.

Let's just make him.

>> That's the worst musical for anyone.

>> So I.

>> Wouldn't even bother with that.

We can probably do something better to make him hate it.

>> A little.

Have you seen cats?

>> I've seen cats.

>> Believe it or not, twice.

Why?

>> Because I have divorced parents and they.

both took me when I was a.

>> Kid.

At separate times, they thought.

>> It would.

>> Be a real treat.

Amazing.

>> I've got the thing for you, son.

>> Cats.

A book of.

poetry that.

>> Has no through line whatsoever.

Set to music.

>> Oh my.

>> Gosh, it's just awful.

I still remember those people in cat suits.

>> Pretending to play with a ball.

>> Of yarn, and it.

was so troubling it was troubling.

>> Turns out not cats.

All right.

So, Ellie, because you obviously sound like a theater fan and a musical fan, two questions.

Hamilton.

Still great?

Yes or no?

>> Absolutely.

And interestingly enough, I saw both wicked for good in theaters and then Hamilton at downtown within 48 hours for.

>> Each other.

>> To each other.

And it was it was almost like whiplash in terms of watching something that was perfectly, perfectly timed, perfectly tuned, wicked or not wicked.

Hamilton is the tightest production I've ever seen.

There's a reason it's so good.

and then having just come off of wicked for good and just turning in my brain of all the ways they could have tightened that up, I don't want to.

I don't want to spend the next hour just ragging on it.

But I have a lot of thoughts.

Joe, you were totally spot on in your review.

>> Thank you so much.

>> But, yes.

and they're both great in their own ways.

And I agree that, you know, for all of my criticism of any of the wicked movies, I'm glad they're being made.

I'm glad that we're bringing musicals to a broader audience.

That said, they can all use a little tightening up.

>> Everybody needs an editor.

>> Get us in there.

>> Of course.

Take care of it.

Thanks, Ellie.

Thank you so much.

>> I'll write up.

Thanks.

>> You guys.

>> Oh, my.

>> Gosh.

>> Bandstand.

It's on the list.

I wrote it down in my.

>> Notebook.

Love it.

I.

>> I was not ready to hear that.

You've seen.

>> Cats twice.

Twice.

>> You've seen, like, no musicals.

>> You're actually.

That's not true.

>> I actually.

>> Have seen quite a few musicals.

>> And that's how, you know, you.

>> Just don't.

At some point.

Yeah, I just.

>> Think that might be.

>> Why interest.

in them?

So, Joe, what is your what is your.

>> Choice for the intervention.

>> With Dave?

>> Okay.

So I have a couple not thematically related to Hamilton.

I loved Ellie's suggestion.

bandstand.

Great choice.

I think you could probably get on board with Hadestown.

which is Greek mythology.

>> I believe.

>> Right.

or, you know beautiful production, beautiful lighting, beautiful sets.

a lot of really dramatic songs and interplay.

I think in the complete opposite direction.

I could see you liking the Book of Mormon.

>> Oh.

>> Yes, I, I think I'd like.

>> I think you'd like.

I think I'm.

>> Gonna.

>> Endorse that one.

>> Yeah.

I just think knowing.

>> You and.

>> Your personality and your sense of humor all complimentary, I think you would like Book of Mormon, which I also have enjoyed.

Oh, yeah.

and then in the other, other direction, I don't know how many directions I'm going in now, but I think I could also see you liking Into the Woods.

>> That one I've never heard of.

>> Oh, okay, so it's Stephen Sondheim.

it is basically fractured fairy tales.

Act one is, you know, Cinderella.

Baker Baker's wife.

Rapunzel, et cetera.

Setting up the fairy tale that you think you know.

Act two kind of deconstructs that a bit.

The music is gorgeous.

probably some of the most difficult music that, you know, musicians have ever had to sing or play.

but as an audience is such a delight because you think you know the story and you don't.

And I think there's a little bit of Hamilton to that, too, where you think you know what to expect, but you don't.

You sit down and you're like, oh, confronted with either history that you don't remember or parts of history that you never even learned or, or figures from history that, you know, were never in a textbook.

>> Certainly, >> Certainly I was.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> The relationship between Alexander and sister in law Angelica, I was like, what is going on here?

>> She will never.

>> Be satisfied.

Absolutely.

Okay.

>> Yeah.

So good.

>> a little bit of audience feedback for Dave.

Ellen says, go see maybe happy ending.

says best, most creative musical ever.

Several Tonys.

You'll love it best.

so maybe happy ending, that.

>> Is, when.

>> It's on Broadway right now.

>> I've never heard of that one.

Kathy and Aaron says Dave should see rent.

>> Oh, I've seen rent.

>> I was gonna say I'd see Dave.

Maybe Dave being.

>> A curmudgeon.

Rent was not going to be.

>> No, no, I didn't.

These were just people who didn't pay their rent.

Yeah.

>> I don't think it.

>> Was just.

Are you.

>> A landlord?

>> Yeah.

That.

Why you don't know.

>> Are you on the side.

>> Of the landlord?

>> Oh my.

>> Gosh, no.

>> But thank you for the suggestion.

But I have seen rent.

I wasn't crazy about it.

>> I didn't put that on my list.

So I feel vindicated.

>> Yeah, I would probably would not have put rent on the list.

And Dave probably thinks one show of rent is 525,600 minutes.

He's like this.

>> Just way too nicely done.

>> how did you like that?

>> That was pretty good.

That was great.

>> And our colleague Julie Williams says a couple of things here.

If Kelly Clarkson's version of Quiet Uptown doesn't make Dave cry, there is no hope for humanity.

Dave doesn't cry.

Are you kidding, Dave?

>> If you don't cry, that's interesting, because maybe Happy Ending is about robots, so that might actually be like a good segue.

>> I was almost moved to tears at Hamilton.

>> Are you A.I.?

>> No.

I'm serious.

Yeah, right.

>> It's a different hour.

>> It almost got you.

>> It almost.

almost got you.

>> Yeah.

And Julie says everyone carries on about how talented Lin-Manuel Miranda is because of Hamilton.

But In the Heights was also phenomenal.

>> Joe agreed.

>> Totally endorse that one.

>> They're 100%.

>> so after we take our only break of the hour Dave didn't know he was in for an intervention.

This is great.

The Connections audience trying to convince Dave to love a musical or see a musical.

Turns out he's seen a lot of musicals.

He just doesn't like them.

I was going to be like Brigadoon.

>> Oh, boy.

Have you seen Brigadoon?

No.

>> I I've seen Man of La mancha.

>> Oh, to dream the impossible dream.

>> Actually, that song is moving.

>> It's wonderful.

It's beautiful.

Oh, man.

>> I.

>> I liked Brigadoon.

I was dating the lead in high school.

>> And so I liked.

No.

Yes, I.

>> Had to go see it.

>> So that's how I saw.

>> Guys and Dolls.

Have you.

>> Seen that?

Oh, yeah.

Seen guys and dolls, too.

>> Actually, I could see that.

>> I've seen Chicago.

>> Okay.

>> I like Chicago.

>> A lot of snapping in that one, too.

It's up here.

>> Yeah, >> I like I want to see that move again.

>> I do too, for.

>> Those not watching on YouTube, you're missing the great.

>> Dave moves there.

>> And when we come back here we're going to talk more about wicked for good.

Joe's review Ellie says full endorse on Joe's review.

You can find Joe and Dave's work in City Magazine.

Dave reviewing Hamilton, which is at the Westwood Theater through.

>> November 30th.

>> November 30th now.

And Joe reviewing wicked for good, which is in theaters now.

So let's come right back and continue the conversation on Connections.

>> I'm Evan Dawson Thursday on the next Connections, we bring you an annual favorite for the Thanksgiving holiday.

It's the Splendid Tables, Turkey Confidential.

Francis Lam is back to answer your Thanksgiving cooking questions, along with a chef and cookbook authors.

Tune in for this great tradition.

And from all of us here at WXXI and Connections, Happy Thanksgiving!

We are grateful that you're part of this community.

We'll be back with you live on Monday.

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>> This is Connections and we are going to the movies.

We're going to the theater.

a little more feedback from our audience that keeps pouring in for supporting Joe and Saving Dave.

Joe who loves musicals.

Dave, who doesn't like musicals?

Although Dave, in his review of city, said he loved Hamilton.

Maybe, to his surprise there so this Nora says the Wiz, 1978 The Wiz.

>> Yes, that's the the.

>> Michael Jackson version.

>> Isn't it?

>> The.

>> Yeah.

>> The movie is Diana Ross, Michael Jackson.

so a little spoiler alert for the next issue of city, there's a little sidebar that I put together about other Wizard of Oz flavored movies that you can kind of check out, and The Wiz is on there.

The music is great.

I'm sure you've heard a version of Home or Ease on Down the Road at some point.

Just a really beautiful creative production.

>> Good music matters.

They're good.

Nora was.

>> Saying the same thing.

>> Good music from Wiz, Mark says a suggestion for Dave come from away.

It's on Apple plus says great story, great actors, great music.

A tribute to Canadian and human connection and greatness.

>> Yeah, it's set right after 911.

>> Yes.

>> Right.

It's a it's a it's a plane that gets diverted to Newfoundland.

>> That story that.

>> Is an.

>> Amazing story I've heard.

That's really good.

>> It is very good.

>> Thank you for that one.

>> You've seen it?

>> I have seen it.

I saw it when it was.

It came here a couple of years ago, I believe.

I saw that production.

also very tightly put together.

I think there's no intermission, maybe, like, it's very, very short, tight production, which is great.

>> Okay.

Thank you.

There, Mark.

Joel says Dave must watch the classics.

The Sound of Music, West Side Story, grease, The Music Man, Little Abner, Oklahoma, and he must watch cats, Starlight Express and any other Andrew Lloyd Webber musical as a marathon.

>> Oh, oh.

don't do that.

That sounds.

>> That sounds painful, but I saw, I saw I've seen a few of those.

Okay.

so thank you for that.

>> Okay.

The marathon starting with cats does sound like.

I think we've been thinking torture all wrong.

I mean, like, I don't support torture at all, but, like, if we're if we.

>> Have to do it, that's the way to do it.

>> Monty, on the phone in the city has a comment as well.

Hey, Monty, go ahead.

>> Thank you.

I think this is a support Dave question.

the first part of a musical I ever saw was West Side Story.

And let's put it this way, I've got a few years, probably on all of you.

And so going to high school.

and by the way, we lived right behind one.

I could not see the reality of what?

Of of what I lived with.

Transferred into a musical with gangs and fights and things like that.

So what's what's going to make me, you know, want to see more of that kind of stuff?

>> Monty?

I would say it's a certainly it's a fair point.

I mean, if for you that's too close to home and that's too difficult.

Absolutely.

I mean, that's I think there are people Joe Lester, who find a sense of solidarity is the wrong word, but art can transcend painful experience and also be helpful or healing for Monty, that was not helpful.

So I get it.

>> Absolutely.

>> Everyone's got.

>> Different lines.

Everything is not for everyone.

And I think that's also an important thing to remember when, like recommending something or encouraging people to see something to.

>> Get closer to your microphone.

>> Sorry.

>> Thank you.

You print people.

>> I don't like to listen to my voice.

But I think that is important to know.

And to know yourself enough to be like, I can't watch that because of certain reasons, which is a good thing to know about yourself and to recognize in what art might bring to your life.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, if you devised a banking system, Hamilton might be hard for you.

>> Absolutely.

100 if you don't like to write, Hamilton might not be.

>> For you.

>> Now.

>> Prolific.

>> So Ellie mentioned that she really liked Joe's review for City of Wicked for good.

And as I mentioned, off the top, some of the reviews were pretty brutal.

not all of them, but I would say the critical consensus is not great here.

What I took from you, Joe, not having seen the movie myself, is you think a lot of the individual performances are really good, that it's well cast, that the leads are great, that it maybe needs better music, and it maybe is too long needs an editor.

Is that fair?

>> So here's the problem.

they they manufactured their own difficulties here by splitting the show into two movies.

>> Do you think.

>> It could have been.

>> 100%?

>> Okay.

>> And I think they then had to solve that problem with the second movie, because I think I put it like, very explicitly in my review, the second act of wicked, the show is boring, like it's darker, but not a lot happens.

There's not a lot of of action.

Most of the good music, I would venture to say is in the first act.

So you also have a real sort of dearth of bops happening in the in, in what results as the second movie.

and I think another problem is the second movie vis a vis the second act of the show.

Elphaba and Glinda are not together for a lot of that, and the magic of the first wicked, which I sort of unabashedly love.

I really think they did a great job with that first movie.

Is the chemistry between, you know, Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo and those two characters.

They are so wonderful together, wonderfully cast.

They sound amazing.

Just there's so much energy happening in that first movie because of that.

And the second movie really suffers.

I think.

>> Because was there a.

>> Creative way to, to deal with that?

I mean, you can't, I guess the story you can't force them together.

>> So they do a little bit.

one of the songs in this, in wicked For good, is just traditionally a duet between the Wizard, in this case, Jeff Goldblum and Elphaba.

Here they sort of manufacture getting Glinda into that scene.

So it becomes a little bit of a trio, which I think does help kind of fill that void.

But it's not enough.

>> Okay so it suffers for those reasons, and it could have been shorter, but it's not an abomination, in your view?

>> I don't think so.

it's also shorter than the first movie.

So I think there's a lot of bloat in the first movie that could kind of be gotten rid of, and then you could shorten this one and you could have smushed them together, may make a three hour movie, give me an intermission.

I'd be thrilled.

but no, I can't write it off completely because I think these performances are so great.

I think there are, you know, two, maybe two and a half real high points musically that I'm not sure I would be willing to give up or just kind of toss away.

so, so I'm not, I can't, I can't, I can't throw it out completely.

>> Can can I ask you a question?

So in my review of Hamilton, I wrote that, you know, the tickets are a little steep and I get I get why.

But you will be a richer person for seeing Hamilton.

Will I be a richer person for seeing any of the Wicked's.

>> You personally, Dave?

Andreatta yes.

I don't think so.

>> Okay.

Why?

>> I mean, I don't, I don't I think.

>> We're all what she.

>> Yeah.

>> But you're probably hopeless.

>> Oh.

>> No.

>> No, no, I thought she.

>> Was saying that.

I'm already so well-rounded.

>> That's exactly.

No, thank you.

>> no.

I also think we're comparing, like, very different pieces of art.

I think Hamilton, and I'm not discounting either of them.

I actually think it's a compliment to, like, be different and to have, you know, pieces of art that, you know, have different viewpoints and different levels.

but I think, I think there's a little bit of like an essentialism to seeing Hamilton.

artistically, I think there's it's it was groundbreaking for a reason.

I think it won, you know, between like, the Pulitzer and the Tony and whatever for Lin.

Like, it really was groundbreaking at the time for several reasons.

I think wicked is is is beautiful music at times.

but I don't think like, the weight is different.

>> Got it.

>> If that makes sense.

>> Yeah.

And can I, can I ask you to tell the audience a little bit about whether kids are going to be traumatized?

I mentioned that in the review for The New Yorker.

Justin Chang said that there was a scene that was gratuitously traumatizing the, the the scarecrows cornfield crucifixion, which, incidentally, got a note from Chris who says, now he's interested.

Scarecrow crucifixion.

Only now am I interested.

>> In seeing this movie.

>> What what what.

>> I don't I think that's a little excessive from Justin Chang, but.

I don't honestly, I find the monkeys a little bit more.

>> Intimidating than anything else.

Scarecrow.

>> Okay.

>> Spoil it.

>> It's a spoiler.

>> It's like a.

>> It's a real plot.

Spoiler.

>> It's okay.

Really?

Yeah.

>> Okay.

So, like, really?

Really.

Yeah.

Okay.

Don't turn off your radios if you don't want to know what happens.

So Fierro, who is the love interest, becomes the scarecrow.

He is kind of basically tortured by the guards in Oz.

And now you really are not going to see it because Dave's like.

>> No, no, no, Dave is kind of interesting here.

>> We see the scarecrow.

>> Get crucified.

>> No, you see him like there's sort of like hazy kind of flashes to what's happening.

You see him sort of like up on, like a post a little bit, and then you kind of don't see him for a while, and then he then there's like a reveal of who he is and what he looks like now, because Elphaba has to, like, do this magic to basically save his life which turns him into the scarecrow.

It's sort of I don't think it's I don't think there's like a brutalism to it at all.

I think visual effects wise, it's horrifying because I don't think it looks good.

So maybe that's where the nightmares are coming.

>> You don't.

>> Think kids will be traumatized by that.

>> Scene?

>> Listen, so many of us watched The Wizard of Oz as children and like those flying monkeys in that version were terrifying.

I feel like kids, they're gonna be fine.

They're kids are going to be fine.

Everyone don't email me.

>> Yeah.

>> There's.

>> A.

>> Is that true for you, Rob?

Well, engineer.

Rob, flying monkeys were the scariest thing in the original movie.

Traumatizing as a kid.

Oh, I mean, you've got brothers who make fun of you for that.

No, that was legit terrifying.

I get made fun of because I was terrified by the octopus in the live action Popeye starring Robin Williams.

That was scary to me.

as a child, and I, I very justifiably get made fun of for that.

But the flying monkeys, I think that's pretty scary.

okay, two other points on on wicked and then we'll go back.

Oh, let's take a little bit of feedback here, because this is MJ who wants to weigh in on this, who says, I hated wicked for good, says I'm also not a big fan of musicals, but I did enjoy the first wicked installment.

I had read the book back in the 90s.

Okay, so a lot of knowledge here.

Went to see wicked for good with friends last Saturday afternoon, primarily because they always host an amazing Oscars party, and I wanted to know what was going to be nominated, apart from some very welcome political commentary woven into the movie, the rest of it was even more trivial than the first installment.

There was less interesting choreography, stupider lyrics, and worse acting.

I am sorry that I will never get those hours back in my life.

On the flip side, I'm glad my senior level membership at the little theater at the matinee rate meant that I only spent $6 on this fiasco.

>> Great.

Whoa.

>> I love that I do, I love that also.

Yeah, go see it at the little.

They're showing this, you know, among other theaters in town.

So great way to to to support them.

If you want to see this blockbuster, which is fantastic.

>> and a question about who is this guy and whether there was enough heat.

There supposed to be a romance here?

>> Oh, man.

>> Don't I don't yeah, there is.

>> I'm I'm speaking generally here.

>> Yes.

>> Was it like a tepid romance or was there enough heat?

>> Okay.

>> So because Dave Entrada.

>> Wants heat.

>> In the romance.

>> All right.

In the.

>> Show.

>> Wicked in the musical, Fiero and Elphaba have this very intense song together that on stage is, like, very dramatically staged in an intense, like, love scene.

In this.

>> Like, sexy.

>> Yeah, but like, they're, like, constantly touching.

Like, it's just like, it's very dramatic.

It's very intense.

and in the movie, like, you know, she's singing about being kissed and held, and they are on opposite sides of whatever this room is.

She's wearing the ugliest garment that I could have imagined for this scene.

It is.

It is really.

It's really upsetting.

Like how how they devised like this one moment that is legitimately supposed to be sort of a turning point in the show because, you know, Fiero is Glinda's fiance, and then he goes off with Elphaba, and it's at the end of that song.

She sort of whispers, you know for the first time, I feel wicked, like, this is really a turning point for her on several levels, and it's so lackluster in the movie.

It's really just poorly done.

>> Should be spicy.

>> It should be spicy.

Get rid of the cardigan.

>> Cardigan?

>> Nothing.

>> Nothing sexy.

Wearing a cardigan.

>> Oh, Dave.

>> Oh, God.

>> Yeah, I.

>> Gotta see.

>> This thing.

Oh my God, I'll go with you.

>> Davis.

Now bizarrely interested in.

>> Sort of.

>> Crucified scarecrows, cardigans.

>> Cardigan, love songs.

Wow.

Yeah, right.

>> Bob and Lima on the phone next.

Hey, Bob.

Go ahead.

>> Hey, thanks for having me, Evan.

So I'll preface by saying I didn't grow up in the area I grew up in Iowa.

Not a lot of venues for musicals, aside from maybe Pirates of Penzance.

>> A lot.

>> Of.

>> Scarecrows.

Yeah, a lot of scarecrows.

But I will say my introduction, you know, Gone With the Wind on VHS didn't appeal to me.

As you know, a 12-year-old boy.

But there were musicals that did, you know, The Nightmare Before Christmas?

An animated musical or even.

And I hate to say this because it's juvenile South Park, bigger, better, and uncut.

An excellent musical front to back.

And then the other, the only other real you know, introduction I've had.

Besides, I saw Hamilton in 22.

Here was the avant garde stuff like repo, a genetic rock opera with Sarah Brightman.

And I just wanted to know if the critics think that these have a place in our society, or even to be considered with the rest of these musicals, or if this is a much more refined niche kind of enjoying experience.

>> Yeah, it's a good question, Bob.

>> Yeah, that, that that is interesting.

I have I have actually seen South South Park Uncut.

it was it was funny.

I mean, I, I don't recall the specifics of the plot.

>> Do you like the song Blame Canada?

>> Yeah, I thought.

>> That was funny.

Yeah.

Blame Canada, that was.

>> Everything went wrong just when Canada came along.

>> But I.

>> I, I, I don't, I don't know, I don't know how whether I'd, I'd put South Park uncut into the same category as a Broadway musical.

Well would would you Johanna.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm not a purist.

I love musicals.

I think the good part about wicked is that it's a movie musical.

So I think there is a place, and I'm not considering Wicked part one and wicked for good high art at all.

I think there is a place my niece texted to say Into the Woods.

The movie version is like, worth checking out and considering.

And I also think kind of going back to, you know, talking about like ticket price and, you know, being richer for seeing these things.

I think the availability of some of these pieces of art, you know, on streaming in, in the theater is just as important.

However you take it in, if it's a movie musical, if it's South Park, if it's an adaptation of another adaptation that's been, you know, put on screen somewhere, that's great.

I think.

I think it's an important art form.

Bottom line.

>> Hey.

>> Before I grab one more phone call here, Carl, I'll grab that in a second.

What about 1776, the musical before Hamilton?

Do you know that one, David?

>> No.

>> I don't I.

>> Don't oh, my gosh, there's a great song in that musical in which they're yelling at John Adams, who is droning on.

about independence and the.

But they're all and this is like, true to form.

It's July 1776.

They are sweltering and they're going, somebody open up a window.

>> And they're just like.

>> They can't even concentrate.

>> It's just too hot.

>> Sweats pouring down their faces.

Sit down John, sit down.

John.

so I you would like the cheekiness of somebody.

>> I wonder.

>> How that's playing.

if that's still plays nowadays, that since Hamilton has come out like when was 1776, when did that come out?

>> Like 1976?

>> Oh, long time ago.

70s maybe.

Probably.

Right.

So yeah.

Yeah.

>> No, I don't.

>> Think so.

It's all it's.

>> Obviously a different time.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, yeah.

But anyway I don't even know if that was, was that a stage show before?

It was a.

>> Movie.

>> I believe.

>> So most of these.

>> Things, I think so, yeah.

>> this is Carla in Chile.

Hey, Carla.

Go ahead.

>> Evan, thank you for having a top eight.

That's pretty lighthearted before the holidays.

I am amazed you brought up 1776.

We took ten classes of juniors to see that in 1976.

>> All right?

>> And you're you're absolutely right.

The kids got it.

My comment about Hamilton.

And this sounds like the Emperor has no clothes.

I had a senior sitting beside me.

We were in the balcony and I looked at him at one point and said, do you understand what they're saying?

And he said, our teacher gave us background and we studied act one and act two, and I can only understand when there is a trio, a couple or a single actor on the stage.

>> Okay.

Yeah.

I mean yeah.

You talked about that Dave.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

That it, it is a little bit hard, difficult to follow the rapid fire.

of it, but I found that the choreography and just the story line sort of filled in the blanks for me.

Like I was able to get it, but I, I agree with that assessment that I couldn't catch all of the lyrics.

>> It's so many words.

It's just so many words.

>> Yeah.

>> I think some of it though is it's been around long enough that some of the audiences now know the music.

Sure.

but I, I understand the point there.

And Carla, I'm told.

Thank you, Julie Williams on our team here, that 1776 premiered in 1969.

So there you go.

we're going to make you watch 1776 and Elizabeth tuning in late, says Dave would like six.

It's an hour.

It's only an hour long.

An historical like Hamilton, I don't know, do you know six?

Joe?

>> I've heard of six.

it's a wives of Henry the eighth.

>> Oh.

Oh, Julie says.

>> Yes, it is, and it's fantastic.

>> Yeah, I haven't seen it, but I remember it coming out and it being sort of like very popular.

>> The, the.

>> Rare case of the perspective of the women.

>> Yes.

>> Not the not the monarch.

Okay.

Elizabeth, thank you for for that.

And I just want to say to Carla, too I appreciate the idea that occasionally we need some light hearted Connections.

We've hit some heavier themes here.

Civil War, you know, things like that.

But we do 500 hours a year, and we think of the show as, like, the public square.

And sometimes things do seem heavy, and sometimes they're heavy.

So listeners occasionally tell us to lighten it up once in a while, and we try to do that, but we will always take your feedback Connections at wxxi.org.

If you want to tell us more of what you want to see.

All right, Joe, what are you seeing next here?

What's on the menu next?

>> What are you excited about?

>> Oh, gosh, that's too big of a question to answer honestly.

One thing I do want to say, though, is that wicked is coming to,, West.

Yes.

In February, March of 2026.

So if you've seen the movies like them, didn't like them, want to compare them to the show, now's your chance.

And it is a it is typically a good show, like a good musical to see.

So I kind of would recommend maybe people checking that out.

>> Okay.

>> And believe it or not, I have.

>> My eye on Spamalot.

Believe it or.

>> Not, I have.

>> My eye on Spamalot.

Spamalot?

Yeah.

>> Okay.

Art wants to know what about dear Evan Dawson?

I think it was.

I thought it was.

Oh, I get, I get the joke.

What is it?

Dear?

>> Evan Hansen.

Yeah.

>> I still don't know what.

>> I haven't seen it.

>> Dear Evan Dawson, maybe a Rochester themed musical.

Their producer Megan Mack weighing in, also wants to endorse six.

There you go.

I will head into the weekend saying 1776, but a lot of great ones, just not cats.

>> Never, never cats.

The sequel.

>> 3.5 hour sequel.

>> You know, for anyone watching on YouTube, you can see that I've been taking notes, copious.

>> Notes.

>> Taking notes.

Have I have everyone suggested.

>> Come back.

>> After you've watched everything and then.

>> Let's do it again.

>> We'll see if the intervention works.

Joe, come back for.

>> That show.

Absolutely.

>> All right, Joe Lester, Dave, Andrea, his work in City magazine, reviewing wicked for good, reviewing Hamilton, having a lot of fun.

Happy Thanksgiving guys.

Thank you both for being here.

>> Thank you.

>> And to all of the listeners.

Thank you.

Thanks for being with us.

We'll talk to you next week.

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