right from Santa Fe Kirk Ellis one of our favorite folks right here in New Mexico we're going to talk about the W the writer strike and others who are joining uh in this strike as well in Hollywood what it means for New Mexico specifically and what we can expect possibly in the future let me introduce Kirk Ellis is a two-time Emmy award-winning uh Emmy Award winner and two-time Humanities prize-winning writer producer who wrote and produced The Amazing acclaimed event series John Adams one of my favorites uh Among Us many other credits are the Emmy nominated into the West shot right here in New Mexico by the way in the Emmy Award winning Anne Frank the whole story and a few more things as well Kirk welcome I really want to thank you for taking some time out I see you rocking the colors there in your t-shirt it's a big deal when getting some of the nuts and bolts here but please do if you would a lot of folks don't know you but by name as a credit they're seeing you for the first time catch us up on the work you're doing currently and uh and anything I might have missed in my intro to you sure I mean the two things are I've only been back really in New Mexico Coast since January of this year and we spent most of last year in Paris as one of the writers and executive producers of new eight-part mini-series for Apple about Benjamin Franklin cheers in Paris so I'm once again back in the 18th century relearning the origins of our country and what a close run thing it was and that project is now it'll be out in February sometime in February or March the early spring of 24. uh By the time it's actually on the air will be yet again another six years from conception to actual realization and it was begun during covet and at the same time um I'd long wanted to do a non-fiction book to repay the debt to a couple of early mentors of mine a couple of really well-known be Western filmmakers uh Bud betticker the director in Burke Kennedy the writer and so UNM press came to me to do the lead Book for a new series that launched question march called wheel West r-e-e-l get it and my book about the movie Ride Lonesome made by Burton bite in 1959 is the lead book and that's available at bookstores near you in New Mexico I love it I love it we should mention you are a member of the PBS family in a lot of ways with your work over Memorial Day talk about that with folks as well it's a big deal for us at PBS sure so for the past four years I've been the writer or co-writer of the annual National Memorial Day concert which has PBS viewers know is a combination of musical performance and readings and recreated biographies of veterans from our many conflicts over the last century um and you know and even earlier than that and that's always been a a real privilege to do and it's always a very moving experience it's also live television on my dad which is nerve-wracking you go out to Washington for a week before uh and start pairing down trip to make sure it comes in at exactly one hour and 28 minutes so there's time for PBS's announcements on either side and anything anything and everything normally does go wrong with live television right but it's a remarkable experience and it's a really it's a team of people been doing it now for over 30 years they really know um how to put it together as you're aware it's always when the PBS is one or two highest rated programs of the year and for me it's a chance to to really touch history on a physical level in an emotional level with people who lived it and to have the honor to take their words and craft them in the drama is really you know I always quite touching I should say it was a little tricky this year I was wasn't sure I was going to be able to follow through with that kid movement but PBS operates under a different and fairer contract than being PTP in the studios so we were still under contract and we could write that check isn't that ironic about the conversation about today that's interesting yes yes right on thank you for your efforts on that that's a special broadcast for us here in New Mexico a lot of folks don't know it was a real life New Mexico involved with that hey there's a lot of uh word salad acronyms out there for a lot of folks who are as you know tuning into the situation literally just now sure not so much to the run-up but the general public is just now kind of tuning into this wga you know what do wga members do what does it stand for what's the issue here let's talk a couple of the broad Strokes first sure so uh on May 2nd um approximately 20 000 members of the wga the writer skills of America and there are two branches that had to register of America West based in Los Angeles and East um here in New Mexico we're covered uh under the wga West contract so not everyone who writes for film and television is a wga member that's partly because they're still certain types of writing like animation commercials things like that that are not yet unionized but those of us who work under What's called the minimum basic agreement which comes up for Renewal every three years um when pencils down computer pad stand whatever down on me second so um as of today and we've been on strike roughly 70 days 70 days and change um about two weeks ago uh The Screen Actors Guild and after these um the trying to remember what after stands for it's like you said word salad yeah but um uh the Actors Guild went on strike um uh for the first time in quite a while and this is the first Joint Strike where you've got actors and writers walking the picket lines together since 1960 and just to put that in perspective that was a year before I was born and Ronald Reagan was head of the Screen Actors Guild right he wasn't even yet governor of California that's how long this has been in the making and there's a reason for that which is that when these contracts were initially negotiated with an organization called The Association of motion picture and television producers the amptp it was by Design on the part of the producer Studios that each Guild there's also the Director's Guild which is not on strike they reached an agreement last month with the producers and streamers and networks but it was by design that all of us would negotiate separately so there would be no collective bargaining right because they knew that having all three guilds negotiate together was a prescription for a general strike that would shut down the industry uh it's been since you can see extremely rare when there's been this kind of solidarity but I think this kid at a moment when labor in this country whether you're working as a motion picture and television employee you're working in hotels you're working in the restaurant industry you're a UPS driver that's a strike that could paralyze the country if they walk out next month you know everybody is feeling abused everybody is feeling that they've become merely gig workers that their whatever work they do whatever craft whether it's creative or industrial has been underappreciated and underpaid and I think it's frankly what I call the network scenario where people are just mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore that's where we are interesting point there I'm curious let's get it inside the New Mexico borders here for a quick second what's going on locally I understand there is a picket line and a couple of uh Productions have been I don't want to sort of shut down that's maybe a little severe but it's being honored am I right on that I know that is that is true I was um I worked with a Representatives from The Writer's Guild of America came out of La in June but actually around in May when I was in Washington doing uh the concert but um picket lines were established here um in June I became a strike Captain for industrial action and we did pick it there are I think it surprised people how many writer skill members were just here in our small quaint little postage stamp of town in Santa Fe but we did very effective tickets with fewer than a dozen people um on two major Productions and right now I'm unaware of anything that is actually shooting in the state um it's and that is certainly true in Los Angeles there's literally nothing to pick it other than the daily picket lines outside the streamers and Studios what interests me about you Kirk Ellis in your career is you've kind of you know embody three sides of this you've been a producer you're a writer obviously and you've worked you know uh with actors it just how do you personally kind of meld all those three sides of you into this situation I mean it's pretty strongly what you feel is right is right and what's wrong is wrong but you you I'm not saying you might have some affection for the producers but do you know have a feel for where they're coming some from at some level so I should be really clear when I use the word producers um because there's been a lot of misinformation out there that the producers Guild of America which is not a trade Union it's simply an affiliation of people who produce film and TV I'm a member um came out the statement saying that we were in solidarity with the units producers depend on talent to get their projects off the planning boards and onto the stage what we're really talking about are the the motion picture in Television Studios and networks and the streamers the people like Netflix Amazon Hulu Etc and that those are those are the people who are dictating terms that we find unacceptable to this I've I've tried to I've tried to flip the equation and say we are not on strike the studios networks and streamers are on strike against their creative Talent that's what has led to all of this and we all have separate agendas but what to get to the point of your question what really struck me when said quite boldly um within a few days of going on strike released their pattern of Demands and how they had been met or more accurately not met by being a PTP it was extraordinary how similar the actors issues were to the writers not only with the sort of elephant in the room of AI but with the sense that the average actor just like the average writer can't make a living there are people in my guild who are creators and showrunners who are driving Uber who were driving to live show runners okay people who create shows and are you know give giving Emmy Awards for this uh let alone people in entry level positions and you know we're talking about the hundreds of thousands of members of sag sagathra how many of them are working actors and how many of them are working on a level where they are six and seven sometimes eight figure you know um compensation not that many so we're talking about a sort of Grassroots Striker as much as the producers want to pitch it as a handful of elite members of both guilds throwing everybody else out of work that's certainly not what I experienced um on a picket line neither is somebody walking a picket or he's a captain here in New Mexico yes of course there are always those difficult conversations with members of the crew who are going to lose work and I talked to enough crew members over the last couple of months to know that many of them realize that the shows they were working on here in June and July would be the last shows they would work on all year and sadly that is true because this is going to be a long strike but in general everybody was sympathetic to my guilt and certainly noted the actors because they understand the issues are um existential across the industry that's an interesting point there that it does somewhat dovetail into each other it's very interesting let's get into what are the demands what do the studios want what the writers want where's the middle ground here I want to kind of carve off AI here if I could Kirk I want to talk about that separately next but what's the basic uh rub here for for okay well so the easier questions what do the studios want no change whatsoever okay they want to provide a minimum less than cost of living increase in certain quarters than call it quits we'll talk about anything when the time comes but that's all it is they came in they came into both The Writer's Guild and the Senate after negotiations I think and I think Fran drescher's barn burner of the speech when the actor's guild went on strike confirmed it for me they never intended negotiate they came in with an initial offer and that was as far as they were ever going to go so in terms of what writers are looking for as with any labor action money isn't the harder whether you're working on whether you've been in the business as long as I've been and you've worked up to the level that I've achieved where you're just coming in in real wages you are working now for less money than when you started than when you started five years ago 10 years ago 20 years ago or 30 years ago you're working for less money um I think what the average viewer may not appreciate unless there are certain age is that back in the days of network television or even the Golden Era of HBO and the beginning of the streaming here Network television produced 24 episodes of the show every year whether it was Blue Bloods away 50 you know you name it even going back to The Honeymooners and I Love Lucy and the dawn of Van Buren you that was that was a Year's work you could you could make it you could predict what your salary would be it was consistent you went into the office you did the work you had this Hiatus over the summer uh well the you know new episodes are being written and then you were back to that schedule in the early days of streaming there were 13 episodes so you could theoretically do two shows a year or whether you are a staff writer or a showroom you could do that well now you've got you know a shows on Apple shows on Netflix that are six episodes Eight Episodes maybe special that are 10 episodes right and that's it nobody can make a living doing that and there's no cine cure to allow you to continue to work and on top of that you know I'm there were stories um you know you would hear from Matt Weiner with Mad Men or um uh Vince Gilligan with uh Breaking Bad on EMC where you'd have a show done for a certain budget never enough money that the show needed both of those shows are reasonably big hits certainly after they go on hiatus during the last strike and Netflix Picks Them Up and everybody starts to watch him the studio would come back and go look we love what you guys did we want you to do the same show for less money because you're good you can do this and you'll have few reminders in the room cool so this has now become exponentially worse for writers so for instance with and every show is different Mike White wrote every episode of White Lotus and there's a consistency to that that you would not have in room um Howard Carter and I wrote every episode of Franklin but it was a containable narrative we did not need a room full of people other shows did but what's happening now is that the studios and streamers are saying look here come up with an idea come up with an idea for Chef you want to do a show about um modern day scientists in Los Angeles great that's great oppenheimer's coming out looks like something we can do so here's what we're going to do you know how many writers would you need to put what's called a mini room together come up with some storylines for us we're going to do Eight Episodes so okay I need two writers so we all go into a mini room I get paid at a level you know here they're paid the level here right the entry level we work and we break out these stories we submit them to the streamer the streamer goes great it's a good show seriously how we're gonna move forward you fire the writers you're in the mini agreement you write all the episodes yourself right so maybe I'll say yesterday maybe I'll say no to that but I won't have these other writers anywhere on the show so what that's creating is a serious situation where unlike what was happening just recently in television where you had a room of people who knew the show knew the characters anyway who would what we call breakout epathetics that the show wanted Runner would rewrite on his or her own or in tandoned with the original writer but it was a training Grant so those writers could go to set monitor what's going on while the other people in the room are working on the next couple of episodes they would gain enough experience to her at some point they could pitch their own show that's not happening you know there's no training ground for any of this um and as if that wasn't bad enough I'll use my own film as an example look I was well compensated on the on the Franklin project by uh I have no argument with that but the money I received as writer and executive producer is all the money I will ever see from that [ __ ] there will not be a dime not a penny not a farthing of residuals because Apple like Netflix like Amazon owns the project in perpetuity in all media around the world forever uh so Kirk even as executive producer that is correct residuals that's correct wow yeah there's no there's no additional money all of this you know the director Tim and patton the other EPS or tripleplant and Cranston all of us you know that's that's the money we love the project and it was a great creative team and it was just the art of the collaboration the physical you know adrenaline Russia making it right but that's it and Gina gets worse because at some point and this has already happened and I'm sure your viewers may have experienced this on their viewing platforms the the streamer can say you know everybody who wants to watch John Adams or Franklin they've watched it let's just pull it forever from the platform now back in the day 2008 when John Adams comes out there were these things called DVDs and shortly after that blue release that was an ancillary Mark uh you know owned it's like HBO is Time Warner the the DVD company was Time Warner so it was all the same money but there was a physical cop of the show you know I got a residual for those DVDs when they were sold or when they were rented I still got it but you see John Adams on Amazon you pay a buck 99 right there are no DVDs made of anything anymore there will be no DVDs of Franklin it exists as a streaming platform and should Apple choose to pull it a week after the last episode of years a year after the series is on the air 10 years later it'll be like it never existed like none of us ever did any of that work wow yeah amazing messages as a Creator to an artist that's a really really hard thing to accept now neither of our guilds has control over that because that's a corporate business decision but I bring it up because it's part and parcel of the way the industry these Mega corporations for whom entertainment is a is a Content you know they didn't call it product anymore it's just content uh the same way underwear could be content you know in another in other industry so it's just that's how things Retreat that is bad that's a fascinating anecdote and I think it explains a lot about where folks are coming from on both sides yeah and the actors have this exactly the same issue there yeah glad you got that in exactly right there's a email I'm not an email a uh meme floating around Facebook this morning from Justine Bateman a little ten partner broken down and why she feels uh sag actors I want you to talk about AI how it will affect you I'm a former sag board member former sag negotiating Committee Member I'm also wgan DGA just to set up for the folks at home who this person is here's the quote that really caught me Kirk and I think this goes dovetails of what you've been seeing here it reads in part AI a quote AI has to be addressed Now or Never I believe this is the last time any labor action will be effective in our business if we don't make a strong rules now they simply won't notice if we strike in three years because at that point they won't need us yeah that's that really caught me your reaction to that I I agree with that 100 I've said to people privately and this is sort of the first time I'm saying it publicly is that if we don't win this you know individually as The Writers Guild collectively um that I should include the teamsters um in iatc in this because they're affected as well if we don't win this there's no reason for any of this to go back to our day job because already the industry I grew up in versus journalist then as a writer and now as a writer producer that industry doesn't exist anymore it's going right um but the work still remains that there won't be any kind of work like I know it so I will simply have no choice than to write books I won't make any money but if I'm not going to make any money I might as well make no money on something I control rather than something that somebody's parceling out to me is gig work that's that that's beautifully put exactly I think a lot of people will be in your exact position why give it away yeah that's right you didn't go through all this in your life just to give it away I mean come on people give me a break I mean just just to to put a button on that yeah look we're in a we're in a a time in this country all right having just come back from France I can't say it's Universal but in this country the artists are under five yeah writers are Under Fire um the work of actors is under Fire um the arts and culture are um are not regarded as important but uh a significant uh population of the political class um and I don't see that changing for the foreseeable future there's none less support for what we do so we must rely on ourselves and we must maintain unity and solidarity through this because there's nobody out there offering us a safety net mm-hmm let's talk about AI let's talk about chat GPT and shortcuts and ways to do things another thing Justine mentioned about episodic television Kirk I know you write a lot of longer form stuff but episodic television is not uh unknown to you she made a really really good point here let me find it I just lost my place here uh training here we go you'll like this training quote training an AI program on an older hits TV series and creating an additional season for example family ties for example has a 167 episodes an AI program could easily be trained on this and create an eighth season you see what I mean here yeah that's a problem for writers I mean that's really scares me your thoughts on that so do you remember the great Robert Allman film written by Michael Tolkien based on his book actually called the player it came out in the early 1990s yes with Tim Robbins as this diabolical a studio executive in Griffin Mill yes who really believed that solution industry's problems was first to get away get to get rid of the writers he actually of course the the premise of the film is he kills a writer and gets away with it but that's only the first step because then when you can get rid of the directors and actors then it's great right well that's where we are because regardless of whether you're a writer an actor for that matter a director um look at why AI dies um in studios know this um and you know people say well can you know can can AI write a script say well I'm not sure that's the issue I think you're looking at it the wrong way what what a studio or a streamer can say is but use Justin Bieber's example um Siri write me season 8 of Family Ties and it will do that you'll do that now it may be good better and different and I must say I've read some chillingly good AI generated poetry and screenplay work it's weird um for a sec I have to agree I had my I muck around with chat gbt a little bit and I asked to write out a scene not a whole script but just a scene for something I've been thinking about and it's shocking to watch the screen fill up with words in screenwriting format you know what I mean it's like oh my goodness this what is this it's yeah I'm with you on that so so what so what what would happen then is that this you know whether it's chat GPT or any other form of AI would generate these scripts right then mindful of what I said earlier about not having any more writers it's just me the network hands these scripts to me and goes here 's we know it's a turd but we know you can publish so go do that so I'm not getting replaced exactly but I'm no longer a creator of the work I'm simply A Pair of Hands who's achieving a predetermined outcome and that's what it is and that's what would be done with with ag look actors have been through this before you remember the commercials of Fred Astaire dancing with the mop and the unauthorized use of imagery I mean that was a real existential threat at the time the actors and they got that shut down um this is far greater um and I know you want to talk about background actors let's go there now I do want to talk about actors let's go back around and then go to uh you know Top Line folks and what I mean by that's interesting to see folks like David Duchovny from the X-Files on the picket line talking about how little money he made from a deal that was made and he just got cut out of it this is a very complex issue it's very interesting let's go back to background actors here of course should we throw a scenario at you I I think about this uh my experience working on a great a picture that was here in New Mexico The Longest Yard sure Adam Sandler deal uh back a few years ago that did some filming out in Los Angeles and I was very lucky to be a part of some background actors here in New Mexico we got brought out to LA to for continuity because we were part of the the sideline scenes uh with the with the teams and I watched in all the New Mexico crew you know they brought in hundreds many hundreds of extras to fill these football stands to do these football scenes but man dude it was so challenging I mean we're talking about people stuff here not to put these folks down but there were big companies out in La that could Wrangle Extras by the thousands for these types of films and my conclusion on it Kirk was I'm not sure how much a studio would stand to deal with this because I'm telling you there were things that happened there that would there were a lot lawsuit friendly let's put it that way we're talking human beings ganged up in one place no supervision it was wild in Los Angeles watching those things and we had a conversation in those years saying no studio is going to put up with this in 10 years there's no way don't go CGI they'll go something something we didn't know at the time I'd like to get your thoughts on background actors I want to make a distinction between those kind of background actors the ones that you know can watch a director learn the business be really this a professional angle the background actors sure let's talk about the big background actors thing I just described there first your thoughts on that would the studios be okay to replace okay so even beings there so there's I want to try and structure this answer so it doesn't look like I've gone off on an impossible TNG right there there is a for even the most casual View um there is uh sixth sense when you're watching something you know when there's a there's a real people on the screen and when you've got a handful of real people and they've been replicated endlessly to fill in background space uh that's why we love watching some of these epics from the 1950s like whether it's been her um or if you know 55 days of Peking and these Lawrence of Arabia those are all real people and uh there was a day a time in our industry when you had industry professionals who were organized and they were uh they were thorough and the the work to Wrangle all those extras falls under the first second assistant directors and there are many of them and I certainly worked with them in Paris on the Franklin show we had a minimum for our exterior scenes of two to three hundred extras a day and on our largest day we'll run the banks of the sen shooting this huge Market sequence um we had 465 experts alone costs uh never with any of those problems because there was a real sense of organization to that yes it can get out of control and I think the Studios have known that for years and that's why you've had CGI um to just filling the crowds not just in Marvel movies but in every film you know you you'll watch a movie and go wait there are all these credits for like 3D and 2D animation what is that I'm having to say to people remember that crowd scene there were probably like eight people there but they used two and 3D animation to make it look like the whole stream was full of people so that's been going on for a while here's what's different and what's much more Insidious about Dai aspect and what the producers are offering now when the SAG after negotiations broke down with the ampgp the studios and networks and streamers released a statement saying we don't understand what happened we had historic language historic language for AI that would have sorted out the actor's demands so when Frank Drescher and the sax negotiator who has a name I would die for his character Duncan Crabtree Island I mean I would not want to be a across the table and then even a duck and Crabtree clearly these guys shouldn't have been either because he was challenged about that historic language he said you know what you want to know what it was here was the language here was the historical AI language the background actors would be paid for one afternoon's work on a show they would be paid a minimum they would then sign off the rights to be photographed then the image could be used in perpetuity by the holder of that copy right I mean the studio or the streamer the network forever so one group of background actors could then be background in everything this company does in perpetuity that was their historic language that's what they were offering okay that's not gonna that's not going to make anybody on the other side of the table sleep easier at night so that's that's that's the danger so yeah because I mean I got I got hit with that I got hit with that sometimes on picking lights well I've been doing this already so you have to understand CGI replication doesn't require an actor that can be generated in that you know in a computer algorithm this is taking somebody's image paying them one time and then using it forever as long as Dad long after the people who made the show were dead long after the long after this media that we know now has changed completely and it's all holographic it's still that same image very chilly so I'm very chilly about that that really doesn't uh let me kind of add to what you're talking about Kirk and go back to Justine Bateman here you'll appreciate this um one of the bits as she breaks down here is about AI written scripts and digitally scanned actors image or voice as well we're going to talk about the voice bit too um some talent agencies quote some talent agencies are actively recruiting their clients to be scanned you choose the projects and get 75 cents on the dollar wow so what that last bit means you might be able to explain that but uh on the money part but I I understand what she's saying about the scanning part it fits what you were just mentioning a second ago right I mean this this feeds into another big this is this is an issue that the writers don't have but that is the equivalent of saying um a minimum number of writers in the writer's room for a show of significant length one of the things the actors have been was very very concerned about is the fact that since covid and Studios again using a global pandemic as an excuse to cut costs you know actors would be brought into a casting director's office to either perform an audition of a scene for the director producer and writer or they would be brought into the casting director's office to record it with the casting director who was giving them some minimum Direction well that's not the window now most most people are saying look self tape self tape and send it to us we'll send it to the we'll send it to the director in the uh in the showroom really self tape so as an actor have to either if I don't have the equipment I've gotta find somebody who'll do it for free find a place to do it because you're not going to want to sell tape in your bedroom in your house you're going to want to put on a costume you're going to want to really make an impression that's right I mean how abusive is that so this is all part and parcel of that issue it's like now this is where it affects and I'm not talking about people you know who are trying to uh make their bones as actors do this do this major A-list actors it needs to do this it's all because the pandemic has changed the way people do things right come on look if we have the opportunity to see people in a room uh when Tim van Patty and I were casting the the Franklin show sure he's in New York out here in Santa Fe where I was in Palm Springs the winter house depending on when this occurred we would look at auditions you know on uh through the casting director that the casting director had taped but they had directed all of that and then there would be meetings on Zoom so is there a personal connection are there questions and things like that so you know you want that personal connection uh but it's like now say no no we don't need to go back to the way it was done before because nobody's doing it that way that's just not true that's amazing that's amazing yeah Kirk clear this one up for me I'm not quite sure what Justine's getting at here yeah uh when she continues that thought your digital image can be triple and quadruple booked so that bodes well for a 10 percenter I'm not sure what a 10 percenter is that that's that's your agent manager and the tech that's that's that the original title of coma Asian in French was was uh ten percent so um so it said so what there's what she's saying is that should this reach that level of abuse okay there will be this digital scanning okay that can be manipulated with your voice you know in your Expressions right and you're in four shows simultaneously so the people making money off that your agent and manager and or if you have one right they are getting quadruple commissions and of course the network is getting your service for essentially one fee you know I see okay that I'm glad you cleared that up that's that's that's kind of fast it shows you how layered this is now I want to continue on this is something uh you started to talk about a little bit ago and I hope folks you hear this as not far-fetched when I read this because this is actually a reality you can do now now here it is quote film things she's worried about with AI quote films customized for a viewer based on their viewing history which has been collected for many years actors will have the option to have their image quote bought out and quote to be used in anything at all and films ordered up by the viewer for example quote I want a film about a panda and a unicorn who saved the world in a rocket ship and put Bill Murray in it end quote that's not that far-fetched guys oh so that's and that is that is something that's a monster that we as viewers yeah of a certain type of platform have to own level of responsibility for all of us Netflix is the worst of this you're watching the show and of course on Netflix you don't get to watch the incredits they just take you to another show then who who cares who may like everything is tail credited now all the credits are at the end it's like forget nobody wants to know who made that they just wants to another show where you get that algorithm says because you like this you will love this right so what Justine Bateman is talking about is really not a far-fetched idea it's the next iteration it's that how about we build you a program in a movie or a series based on these elements because you like Justine payment in this and you like Bill Murray do that then you really love Wes Anderson here's a movie with all these things put together you know this thing I mean you know if the director's claim they got satisfactory language under the eye now I haven't seen I don't know what it is okay um and in I know through friends of mine in that Guild they talk about you know we're the hardest people to replace are you and we've all gone on YouTube we've looked at um there's a Stanley Kubrick The try I can't remember which film the shiny trailer for The Shining directed by Wes Anders all done AI so if you're a direct now maybe if you're a mediocre director you've got Lester be worried about it if you're a director with a recognizable style I would be afraid I would be very very afraid because I think your stuff could be reproduced just as easily that's an interesting point we talk about that at New Mexico PBS about painters like say people like the state of Georgia O'Keeffe is in big trouble you know what I mean you can just download style painting you know it's just somebody should be compensated for that and it they're not oh no no no that gets you know that gets you in your debt okay please let's not just throw off the rails but you will remember the the we talk about a lot of Supreme Court decisions that were uh Olympus test decisions been some of the ones that are are even more complicated and generationally complicated pass without notice you may remember the Supreme Court cited with um the Warhol estate I believe no no uh with the photographer who took a photo of uh that Warhol reproduced that was meant to only be used twice within Warhol used it over and over again right um it was a little different each time that was the Indie Warehouse trade markets like who is this guy why is the Page worth so much they all look the same but there was always something a little different well the Supreme Court decided that the underlying copyright to that artwork was with the original photographer okay um so that's where we get into these copyright machines and like who owns what and what constitutes a work of art just you know does Georgia O'Keeffe have the right to that or if somebody manipulates one of her works and that piece becomes the one everybody manipulates right has to be a state just deserve any money any compensation we're in a very very strange time for this about New Orleans why it was you know it's like who was it Ed Sheeran he's just barely skated by the copyright infringement that's not going to remind thanks for that reminder what shouldn't have gone even that far suddenly exactly anger yeah it was crazy I I I poor Sheeran let's just put it down away that was a toughness let me continue Kirk on this one you'll appreciate this and again folks this is not far-fetched if you know anything about mid-journey and any other uh programs AI programs out there so I mentioned that she mentioned films customized and I use the Bill Murray in the film about a panda and a unicorn she continues viewers will have the option to get digitally scanned themselves and pay extra to have themselves inserted into these custom films that's not that far up let me give you another one she mentions number five licensing deals made with Studios so that viewers can order Up Older films like Star Wars and put their face on Luke Skywalker's body and their ex-wife's face on Darth Vader's body Etc once again if you're up to speed folks on what's out there now with these free programs like mid-journey and text of video programs and all the things that work with that this is not far-fetched at all Kirk your reaction into this stuff is just well I think they're probably they're probably any number of long time multi-decade Gamers out there thinking with the laugh what took the movie and TV industry so long to catch up right because that's happening on video games already your own Avenue yeah so that's I don't I I mean I I would argue that she's not being far-fetched there she's maybe a little bit behind the times because the technology exists for all of that yeah yeah it's so interesting Kirk let's bring it back to local before we let you go here I appreciate the amount of time you spend with us it's been uh fabulous here for New Mexicans what's the upshot you know I always like to remind people any industry here it's always on tender footing you know even even though we're raking lots of money and it seems like if things are going great in the film business things can turn in a season so to speak yeah or just coming on has been doing their thing lots of other states Louisiana doing their thing you never know how these things are going to go I'm not asking you to predict for New Mexico but what's the upshot here for us if this doesn't go well uh for actors there's a flaw in the system the flying system has always been there and um when this was first being contemplated about Bill Richardson and you know the unfortunately now late Eric wit thank you yes there I was on what was called the governor's Council for film and television Industries I think I got that right and my initial sort of back of the brain concern which this strike has brought out is that when we were looking at this incentive yeah we did not look at a parallel incentive for new mexico-based creators of content New Mexico writers New Mexico directors New Mexico actors we conceived it as a service industry where we would the resident of the West back in 2005 there were maybe two Crews two Aus Crews you could feel now we can easily accommodate five films across the state with you know top-line people right uh some from New Mexico some have moved out from New Mexico but Studios always bring their their people here um so unfortunately as a result of doing that what it means is that there are none of us who create product here who could qualify for say a sag waiver for a WG waiver because that's not how our industry is set out so we belong New Mexicans no matter what our Union or what our craft we are now going to have to weather this shutdown together because that's the way this industry was created here and we will by the way we will good last note there hey I encourage folks as well you know honestly Kirk I'm fascinated with the history of unions in the filmmaking business I stumbled on this about 20 years ago the efforts of Jimmy Cagney back in the day and I got smitten and this is a I don't know if folks realize you guys live in a world of a constant war no one's ever really at peace you know I'm so glad you brought that up because to put this in perspective with people when you look at the violent births of the Screen Actors Guild and especially especially what was then called the screenwriters Guild and those initial strikes where you had the teamsters against us not with this you had you had the Burbank fire department turning water hoses and water cannons on Strikers outside the Warner Brothers Gates let alone now Universal cutting trees down on this sag in in in WG Pickin lines um on that on stretch of Lancer Shimmer uh Baron Boulevard but to put in perspective we're literally back to where we started it's as though all the games that were made over time you know in that last that that that that that you know well thousand year storm sag wga Strike Back In 1960. what did that get for the actors they got him residuals it kind of you got them minimums you got them all the things that they've been building on Sim stand it's like all of that is being is being evaporated now and we're literally back to our own origin story that's where we've come that's amazing that's amazing what a great way to put that in perspective Kirk Ellis up in Santa Fe you see the T-shirt he's wearing he's not messing around there you go and as you mentioned it's going to be a fight I've been in Union battles as well I told you before we started filming it you know no one's supposed to be paid well it's it's a it's a risk but you gotta how you manage that risk is by being together and that's that's the whole thing you can't do it alone it's just this is the membership for that yeah really stuff Kirk thank you so much really appreciate it thank you Gene if something breaks in the future can we call on you again if this gets resolved in some way I will I will always be at your back and call sir thank you so much Kirk really appreciate that hey guys check it out check it out tonight get a great show tonight on channel five and at seven o'clock of course Channel 5.1 we'll see you then of course Sunday morning is the repeat until then it's only 99 today in Albuquerque it's kind of a break actually it feels pretty good but stay out of the heat anyway guys have a great afternoon Kirk once again thank you and we'll see you next time thank you Gene Take Care thank you