(bright music) - We are here in the Field of Dreams at the Negro Baseball Leagues Museum with Joe Posnanski.

Joe has written one of the necessary books for any baseball fan, "The Baseball 100."

It's about the 100 best players, so you say.

We'll get into that in a second.

And he's also just about to publish a book on why we love baseball.

But I'm holding in my hands a book that is not only a necessary book, but it's one of the great books about baseball, about friendship, about character, and about why we love baseball, and it's "The Soul of Baseball: "A Road Trip through Buck O'Neil's America."

And so, I'm really pleased, Joe, that you would have a conversation here at the Negro Leagues that was so special to Buck and to a lot of us.

Tell us a little bit about that invisibility of the Negro Leagues and how this museum is making it visible.

- Yeah, I mean, for me, of course, it starts, like every part of sorta my baseball writing journey starts, with Buck O'Neil.

And I think what's so interesting is, for many, many, many years, 30-40 years, Buck O'Neil would tell the stories that would later become famous, but he was telling those stories for so many years, and nobody listened.

And I got to know Buck sort of right when his fame was beginning to grow, but the thing that always struck me was Buck used to say, "I told these same stories.

"The stories haven't changed, and nobody listened.

"Nobody listened for so long."

And I think there was a conscious effort to sort of ignore the Negro Leagues.

It's an ugly part of America, right, the racism that prevented these great players from playing.

And I think a lotta people didn't wanna look back, a lot of African American didn't wanna look back.

There was a real pain in looking back, and Buck is the one that said, "No, "yes, of course, there was prejudice, "and of course, there was hatred, "and of course, it was wrong, "but there was so much joy, "and there was so many great players."

And that took a long time, and I think no player better represents that than Oscar Charleston, right.

Oscar Charleston played decades before Jackie Robinson, so there was never really the chance.

- [Crosby] A hope, yeah.

- That Oscar Charleston was gonna play in 1947.

He died around that time.

Monte Irvin came along, really was at his best at 1940, '41, '42.

That was really when he was at his very, very best, and people who saw him play then basically said he was Willie Mays.

That was the kind of player that he was, he could do everything.

And then he goes to war, and he comes back, and there's an opportunity for him to be one of the first to sign, but he doesn't feel like he can do it.

Like, his body's not the same.

It takes a few years, and he doesn't actually make it up to the big leagues until 1950 or so.

- Right, of course, famously, Jackie Robinson.

- [Joe] That's right.

- [Crosby] Was here for a year.

- [Joe] One year, exactly.

- Really a lot less than a year, a few months, not very happily, it should be said.

On the other hand, it was his ticket in.

It was.

- Exactly.

- It was the.

- And Willie played just a few games in the Negro Leagues.

So, there are people on that end, and then there are people on the other end who, like Satchel Paige, who had an entire career and then was able to be in the Major Leagues for a little while.

- And how do you feel about Satchel's legacy in that way?

Did he obscure the rest of the Negro League players, or did he keep the Negro Leagues alive in people's minds because he was such a legendary figure?

- I think a little bit of both, honestly.

I mean, he did obscure the others.

I mean, he was so far and away the biggest star, and he particularly obscured the others in the White Press, where they often wrote about Satchel Paige.

Because he was such a great storyteller, and he was so legendary in the way he went about his business.

So they often wrote about him and nobody else.

Like, if you were a reader of the sports pages in the 1930s and '40s, you would assume there was one player in the Negro Leagues basically, and it was, and maybe, maybe you would've heard a little bit about Josh Gibson, but.

- Right, and Cool Papa Bell, the stories about how fast Cool Papa Bell was.

- But yes, but a lot of Cool Papa Bell didn't come till later really.

I mean, it was during that time, it was very much just Satchel Paige.

And yet, on the other hand, of course, every team wanted him to come to their town to pitch.

He essentially, he had to pitch every day, because you paid a ticket to come see Satchel Paige pitch.

- [Crosby] And of course, but on the other hand, Satchel really did, he created Satchel's All Stars, and actually the Negro Leagues was substantially about that, the seasons were sometimes only 60 or 80 games long.

- [Joe] Yeah, the league was just run differently.

I mean, a lot of 'em, there were league games, that were usually played on Sundays, doubleheaders after church.

- After church, they rescheduled church.

- Very famously would yes, schedule church a little early for the games.

And between the league games, they played every day, and so sometimes they played each other, sometimes they played factory teams and farm teams.

So the league was set up very differently, which, makes it very difficult to look at, say stats.

You can look at the stats that are sort of become official, and they are league play, they're the highest level of play, but they don't give you the full flavor of what a full season was like.

- And they don't give you a flavor, which there was a substantial amount of, which is, more and more of the statistics around this are being dug up, is in the barnstorming, they would frequently play All Star teams from the Major Leagues or actual Major League teams, the Yankees frequently.

And the records, as it turned out, of those games are pretty favorable to the Negro League players.

- Yeah, the Negro League players won most of those games.

I mean, they had a, and this was against very, very high level competition.

I mean, Bud Fowler would have a team, Joe DiMaggio would play in these games.

Ted Williams would play in these games, so we're talkin' the highest level.

And Buck used to talk about that.

Buck O'Neil used to always say, he'd say, "Well, it's no surprise that we won those games, "'cause those games mattered more to us, "'cause not only were we."

Look the question, there was never a question of how good the players were, but he was like, "It mattered, we needed to win."

The greatest players had incredible respect, almost to a man, for the players in the Negro Leagues, and Buck used to talk about that too.

He said, "Not only does sort of game, recognize game, "that idea, but also, they didn't feel threatened."

So Joe DiMaggio would say point blank, the greatest pitcher he ever faced with Satchel Paige.

- What finally leads to the moment Branch Rickey picking, what's the social background of Branch Rickey doing what he does with Jackie Robinson?

- I think you can see the lead up really in the early '40s during the war.

There was sort of this, I would call it a curiosity.

There were some tryouts.

Jackie Robinson famously tried out at Fenway Park.

There were a few tryouts, there was some talk about it.

I mean, you have to understand, this is at a time when they're lookin' for baseball players anywhere.

- Right, a lotta people are fighting in the war.

- All of the great players are in the war, essentially, and a lot of the good players.

And, of course, it should be said, many of the Negro League top players were also fighting in the war, exactly.

But Jackie Robinson was not.

I mean, he had come back, and I think he was looking for exactly the right person.

The story is very famous about him finding Jackie Robinson and saying, "If I sign you, "you're gonna have to just take the abuse."

And he said, "Don't you want somebody "strong enough to fight?"

He goes, "I want somebody strong enough not to fight back," which Jackie Robinson did for a little while, although as time went on.

- [Crosby] He got fiercer and fiercer.

- Fiercer.

But, the war was a huge part of it.

I mean, it was harder and harder to argue, how could you have African Americans fighting for the country in World War II and not playing in the Major Leagues, which at that point was so far and away America's sport?

- It's interesting, we've been talking about Buck O'Neil and your great book about Buck.

Buck was a manager.

He was a great player, won batting titles twice.

He's ignored, obviously, he continues to play in the Negro Leagues, but eventually he's called up as a coach.

And so, here's a guy who lived through all of it, and you got to know him really well and your book is about him.

Buck never had resentment about anything that happened to him.

He was cheerful and looked for the best in everybody.

- Yeah, completely without bitterness, completely, more than any human being certainly I've ever known.

Here's a guy who had every right to be bitter, right.

I mean, denied the opportunity to go to Sarasota High School, denied the chance to play in the Major Leagues, denied the chance to manage in the Major Leagues, which I think hurt him even more because.

- Yeah, he expected that, and.

- Well, 'cause he was a great, brilliant baseball mind, he would've been a great manager.

He was a great manager in the Negro Leagues, but he would've been a great manager for the Cubs or whatever.

But never got that opportunity, and then for years and years and years, again, ignored, telling stories, people not only ignoring him, but essentially saying he was wrong, telling him he didn't know his own history.

He really had a long time where he was very much discarded, I guess.

- So he finally, he has a career as a scout and then as a coach, and then as the ambassador for the Negro Leagues Museum.

And there is a long time effort to get more of the Negro Leaguers in to the Hall of Fame.

Tell us this story.

You spent a year with Buck on the road, and it's this book.

- Right.

It was right at the end of that year too.

It was at the end of that year, 2006, February.

Essentially, a committee was given the opportunity to put as many Negro League players, executives, managers, whatever, as many as they wanted.

The Hall of Fame put no cap on what they were doing, so we were all 100% certain Buck, the whole thing seemed set up basically for Buck, exactly.

So he doesn't get in.

And I'm in the room with Buck, and I'm very angry.

I mean, I think everybody around Buck was very, very angry for him.

He was not angry because there was no, there was no bitterness in him, but we were very angry for him.

And I was stewing, and Bob came downstairs to set up the press conference.

And I'm there with Buck, and Buck says, "Wow, 17 are going in, 17."

And I'm like, "Yeah, 17."

And I'm thinking he's thinking how wonderful this is.

I'm thinking, how can they put 17 and not put, and all of them are gone, long gone.

And Buck says, "I wonder who will speak on behalf of the 17."

And I looked at him, and I said, "Buck, you would do that?"

Right, this is minutes after they told him he wasn't going to the Hall of Fame.

I said, "Buck, you would do that?"

And he put his hand on my shoulder, and he said, "Joe, what has my life been all about?"

And, he was right, that's exactly what his life was all about.

His life was about celebrating the history, and his life was about just overcoming and having incredible faith in people.

And of course, at the end of the day, he did, he went to Cooperstown and spoke.

- Gave a great speech.

- Gave an incredible speech, led everybody in song in Cooperstown, and it was his last public act.

I mean, two months later he was gone.

- And then eventually, in the Hall of Fame.

- Eventually, years later, 15 years later almost, he gets into the Hall of Fame.

And I remember having very mixed emotions about that, 'cause my feeling was the whole point of getting Buck in the Hall of Fame was that he would be here.

- He was still alive.

- But you know what, it was such a wonderful celebration, and it was a whole new generation of Buck O'Neil fans there.

And he was there, like his spirit was everywhere, so it was wonderful.

(bright music)