WELCOME TO "KENTUCKY TONIGHT."

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING u OUR TOPIC TONIGHT: GAMBLING PROPOSES IN THE KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

LATER WE'LL TALK ABOUT EFFORTS TO LEGALIZE PORTAL IS BETTING IN KENTUCKY GUT FIRST BRAY MACHINES.

THESE ARE GAMES NOW IN MANY CONVENIENCE STORES, BARS AND OTHER PLACES.

THEY'RE REFERRED TO AS GRAY NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR COLOR BUT BECAUSE SOCOM FEEL THEY EXIST IN A GRAY AREA OF THE LAW.

SUPPORTERS SAY THEY ARE GAMES OF SKILL AND THUS LEGAL.

CRITICS SAY THEY'RE SIMPLY SLOT MACHINES AND ARE ILLEGAL IN KENTUCKY.

THERE ARE NOW TWO BILLS IN THE KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY DEALING WITH THEM, ONE TO BAN THEM AND ANOTHER TO REGULATOR THEM SO EV WOO OUR GUESTS IN OUR LEXINGTON STUDIO TODAY TO TALK ABOUT THIS FOR THE FIRST HALF HOUR.

MARK GUILFOYLE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF KENTUCKIANS AGAINST ILLEGAL GAMBLING.

BELLE BOB HELERINGER AB LOUISVILLE LAWYER AND FORM ERR KENTUCKY STATE LEGISLATORS.

KENT GILBERT OF KENTUCKY COUNCIL OF CHURCHES.

AND MICHAEL BARREL, CHIEF PUBLIC AFFAIRS OFFICER FOR PACE-O-MATIC INCORPORATED WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU.

SEND US YOUR QUESTION TWITTER @KYTONIGHTKET.

SEND AN EMAIL TO KYTONIGHT@KET.ORG.

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WELCOME, GENTLEMEN.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

THIS IS VERY TIMELY TOPIC AS ALL OF OUR TOPICS ON "KENTUCKY TONIGHT" ARE, BUT I WANT TO START WITH THIS SIDE OF THE TABLE FIRST TO TALK ABOUT -- SO I MENTIONED TWO WAYS TO DEFINE THESE.

SKILL GAMES OR GRAY MACHINES.

AND MR. HELERINGER, LET'S START WITH YOU.

SO YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE STILL GAMES AND THEREFORE LEGAL.

>> YES.

>> DEFINE FOR US WHAT THOSE ARE.

>> WELL, THERE'S A KENTUCKY STATUTE THAT I'VE GOP COME TO KNOW BY HEART, KENTUCKY REVISED STATUTE 528-0701B.

IF YOU'RE JOTTING THAT DOUBT AN HOME THAT SAYS IT'S DEFINE AN ODD DEFINITION BUT IT SAYS IF YOU'RE NOT A GAME OF CHANCE, IF YOU'RE A GAME OF SKILL, YOU'RE NOT ILLEGAL GAMBLING.

OKAY?

AND OUR GAMES, I REPRESENT PROMINENT TECHNOLOGIES AND WE HAVE THE WILDCAT SKILL GAMES.

AS YOU MENTIONED, THEY'RE PURPLE.

THEY'RE NOT GRAY.

BUT ANYWAY, PEOPLE HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME.

THEY HAVE TO HAVE SOME KIND OF SKILL, MENTAL ACUITY, HAND-EYE COORDINATION ACCORD, WHAR YOU WANT TO CALL IT BUT THEIR SKILL IS WHAT DETERMINES WHETHER OR NOT THEY WIN AND NOT A GAME LIKE A SLOT MACHINE OR YOU PUT A COIN IN AND PUSH A BUTTON, HOPE YOU WIN SOMETHING.

SO UNDER CURRENT DEFINITION OF KENTUCKY LAW, WE'RE A LEGAL GAM GAME.

AND, OF COURSE, OUR OPPONENTS ADMIT THAT BY, EVEN THOUGH THEY SAY WE'RE ILLEGAL, THEY HAVE A BILL TO BAN US THAT OBVIOUSLY THEY WOULDN'T NEED IF WE WERE ALREADY ILLEGAL.

IT WOULD JUST BE A MATTER OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.

CALL UP THE POLICE AND PICK UP OUR GAMES.

NONE OF OUR GAMES HAVE BEEN PICKED UP IN ANY COUNTY WHERE WE'RE OPERATING.

WE HAVEN'T BEEN PROSECUTED FOR ANYTHING.

AND SO WE'RE LEGAL NOW.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE BAN BILL, THAT'S THE STATUTE THEY AMEND, SO THEY WANT TO CHANGE THAT TO EXPLICITLY MAKE US ILLEGAL.

>> SO MR. BARREL, PACE-O-MATIC.

SO YOUR COMPANY MAKES THESE, CORRECT?

>> WE DO MAKE THE WALL STREET JOURNAL BARREL GAMES THAT ARE OUT ON THE MARKET.

>> WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SKILL BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE COULD SAY THAT'S UP FOR INTERPRETATION, HOW MUCH MEMORY OR EYE-HAND COORDINATION, TALK TO US ABOUT YOUR GAMES AND WHY YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE LEGAL IN KENTUCKY.

>> AS BOB SAID, THE LAW IS VERY CLEAR ON THIS.

AGAIN THERE WOULDN'T BE A NEED FOR A BAN BILL IF THEY WERE ILLEGAL.

YOU WOULD JUST CALL LAW ENFORCEMENT HAVE HAVE AND HAVE THEM PICKED UP.

WE HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN DEFENDING ORIGAMIS LEGAL STATUS IN EVERY JURISDICTION WE'VE EVER BEEN IN.

THE GAME ITSELF YOU CAN WIN EVERY TIME.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

A PLAYER CAN PLAY AND IT WIN EVERY TIME.

>> DO THEY?

>> SOMETIMES THEY DO.

SOMETIMES THEY DON'T.

DEPENDS HOW THEY PLAY IT.

IT'S AN ENTERTAINMENT DEVICE FOR FOLKS AT A RESTAURANT, A BAR, SMALL BUSINESS, FA TERNAL CLUB.

THE REALITY IS THOSE BUSINESSES ARE MAKING THE REVENUE OFF THE GAMES BUT THEY'RE ALSO MAKING IT OFF OF THOSE FOLKS STAYING LONGER LIKE OTHER TRADITIONAL ENTERTAINMENT PRODUCT.

I DON'T TO TELL YOU THE SMALL BUSINESSES IN THIS DAY AND AGE ARE OPERATING ON VERY SMALL MESSENGER.

WHETHER IT'S INFLATION, DIFFICULTY HIRING FOLKS.

THIS ADDITIONAL REVENUE IS HELPING THEM MAKE THOSE ENDS MEET RIGHT NOW.

>> PEOPLE WOULD SAY, THOUGH, THOSE WHO CAN LEAST AFFORD TO PLAY THESE TYPES OF ENTERTAINMENT GAMES ARE THE ONES WHO MIGHT BE DOING THAT ALL DAY.

>> WELL, LOOK, IF WE'RE REALLY GOING TO ATTACK A GAMBLING PROBLEM IT WOULD BE THE SPREAD OF SLOT MACHINES IN HHR CASINOS.

THEY ADVERTISE SLOTS ALL OVER THE PLACE, EXPERIENCE VEGAS HERE.

CHURCHILL DOWNS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST SLOTS OPERATORS IN THE NATION.

THEIR GROWING RAPIDLY, AND THEY'RE NOT REALLY PAYING A FAIR CHAIR OF TAXES HERE IN THE STATE.

THEY'RE PAYING 1.5%.

THAT IS ONE OF THE LOYEST TAX RATES IN THE NATION.

THEY'RE PAYING 54% IN PENNSYLVANIA, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO IN PENNSYLVANIA THEY'RE OCCUPATION 54%.

HERE THEY'RE A BIG 1.5.

>> I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT A BILL THAT IS ACTUALLY FOR LEGALIZING AND REGULATING AND TAXING THEM IN JUST A MOMENT BUT I WANT TO GO TO THIS SIDE, MR. GUILFOYLE FIRST.

YOU, HOW DO YOU DEFINE THEM, GRAY MACHINES?

WHY DO YOU SAY THEY NEED TO BE BANNED IN AND TO MR. HELERINGER'S POINT, IF THEY WERE NOT ALREADY LEGAL, THEN THEY WOULDN'T NEED TO BE BANNED.

>> I'LL SAY A COUPLE THINGS.

THERE'S A LOT TO UNPACK THERE.

AND THAWING US.

Y MR. HELERINGER SAID ONLY GAMES OF PURE CHANCE CONSTITUTE ILLEGAL GAMBLING.

THAT IS A COMPLETE MISTESTAMENT OF THE LAW.

THE CASES IN KENTUCKY ARE VERY CLEAR THAT ANY GAME THAT INVOLVES ANY ELEMENT OF CHANCE IS GAMBLING.

THAT IS A VERY BROAD STATEMENT UNKENTUCKY LAW.

SO WHAT THE LEGISLATURE HAS DONE OVER TIME IS IT HAS VERY DELIBERATELY AUTHORIZED THREE FORMS OF AM GLACK, PARA KNEW WAGER WEEK LOTTERY AND CHARITABLE GAMING IT IS UNSECURED THAT THESE PARTICULAR GAMES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE TONIGHT HAVE NOT BEEN AUTHORIZED BY THE LEGISLATURE.

IN FACT, THEY'RE CURRENTLY ILLEGAL UNDER KENTUCKY LAW BECAUSE THEY UNDOUBTEDLY INVOLVE AN ELEMENT OF CHANCE.

SO WHEN MR. HELERINGER TALKS ABOUT HAVING TO USE SKILL, RENEE, THESE GAMES ARE TICK-TACK-TOE.

IT'S NINE IMAGES THAT SPIN AND STOP, AND THE PLAYER IS TO COMPLETE A LINE IF IT CAN WITH A WILDCARD.

MANY TIMES WHEN YOU HIT THE PLAY BUTTON, WHICH IS A LOT LIKE A SLOT MACHINE, THE IMAGES STOP AND THE NINE IMAGES, LIKE ON THE TICK-TACK-TOE BOARD, NONE OF THEM MATCH.

THAT'S A LOSS.

THAT'S PURE CHANCE.

I JUST LOST AS A MATTER OF CHANCE.

SO IT'S VERY CLEAR WHAT OUR BILL DOES, HOUSE BILL 594, IS IT AFFIRMS AND MAKES IT CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT THESE TYPES OF GAMES ARE ILLEGAL.

AND TO THE OTHER POINT THAT WAS MADE, THAT THESE GAMES HAVE NEVER BEEN SEIZED, THAT THEY'VE NEVER BEEN PROSECUTED, THERE'S AN ONGOING CASE IN ROUND CROWN RIGHT NOW WHERE THE ROWAN COUNTY SHERIFF SEIZED ONE OF THESE GRAY GAMES.

THE INDIVIDUAL WHO OWNED THE PREMISES WHERE THE MACHINE WAS LOCATED HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME, POSSESSION OF A GAMBLING DEVICE.

HE IS SET TO BE ARRAIGNED ON APRIL 5th, AND THAT GRAY GAME MACHINE, IT'S SITTING IN AN EVIDENCE ROOM IN ROUND COUNTY.

SO WE'RE OPPOSED TO THESE BECAUSE THEY'RE ILLEGAL, AND THEY'VE DONE A GREAT JOB CONFUSING THINGS.

WE HAVE TO MAKE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR.

AND WE'RE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT CRIME.

THESE MACHINES AREMATICS FOR TRIME.

WE'VE BEEN POINTING OUT IN PENNSYLVANIA HOW YOU HAVE SMASH AND GRAB GANGS GO INTO STORES WITH SLEDGEHAMMERS, BUST OPEN THE MACHINES AND STEAL THE CASH.

GUESS WHAT?

FOUR WEEKS AGO THAT HAPPENED IN LEITCHFIELD, KENTUCKY.

TWO MEN CAME INTO A CONVENIENCE STORE AFTER HOURS, BUSTED OPEN THE MACHINE AND STOLE ALL THE CASH.

AND AS THESE MACHINES CONTINUE TO PROLIFERATE AND SPREAD, AND THEY WILL, AND WHAT I'M HEARING ANECDOTALLY IS PEOPLE ARE JUST NOW STARTING TO NOTICE THEM IN THEIR COMMUNITIES, THIS TYPE OF CRIME WILL PROLIFERATE.

KIDS WILL HAVE READY ACCESS TO THESE MACHINES.

PROBLEM GAMERS WILL HAVE READY ACCESS.

AND THIS BUSINESS ABOUT HHR MACHINES, YOU CAN ONLY PLAY THOSE AT EIGHT LOCATIONS IN KENTUCKY.

IF THEY HAVE THEIR WAY, THERE WILL BE A MINIMUM OF 8,000 LOCATIONS AND A MINIMUM OF 40,000 MACHINES STATEWIDE.

>> REVEREND GILBERT, WHAT'S YOUR OBJECTION?

IS IT MORAL?

>> I THINK IN PART BUT I THINK MAYBE IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT THAN SOME MIGHT EXPECT.

THE KENTUCKY COUNCIL OF CHURCHES IS A BROAD COALITION.

WE'RE NOT AGAINST GAMBLING.

WE ALL ENJOY GAMES OF CHANCE AND SOMETIMES LIKE TO GO TO THE HISTORIC RACES IN KEENELAND AND ALL THOSE THINGS BUT WE RECOGNIZE THERE ARE SOCIAL COSTS INVOLVED IN EXPANDED GAMBLING.

WE REALLY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT EXPANDING GAMBLING ON TWO ACCOUNTS.

ONE IT PROVIDE, THESE GAMES IN PARTICULAR PROVIDE RELATIVELY UNSUPERVISED ACCESS TO MINORS AND THOSE WHO MIGHT ALSO HAVE GAMBLING ADDICTIONS OR PROBLEMS OR MIGHT DEVELOP THEM.

THE SECOND THING IS THAT WE'RE ALSO VERY MUCH CLEAR THAT THE SOCIAL COSTS EXTEND WELL BEYOND JUST WHATEVER THE STATE'S GOING TO RECEIVE IN THE PALTRY TAX AMOUNT IT'S GOING TO GET.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE AMOUNTS OF HERE ARE VERY SMALL.

BUT THAT ALSO MEANS THERE THAT THERE'S NOT A LOT TO GO AROUND FOR REGULATION, TO PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR THOSE SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS WHO,S AS WE HAVE HEARD POINTED OUT, ARE STRUGGLING, BUT 124 A WISE WAY TO MAKE THAT MONEY BACK?

I THINK NOT.

IT HAS A COST TO THE COMMUNITY.

IT HAS A COST ON SOCIAL SERVICES.

AND IT PUTS FAMILIES IN SOME CASES IN GRAVE DANGER.

>> BUT RECENTLY AT THE STATE CAPITOL THERE WERE SOME SMALL BUSINESSES, SOME MOM AND POP WHO CAME AND SAID IN THE ROW UNDER THE A THAT THEY ARE ALREADY OPERATING ON A VERY THIN MARGIN AND THIS HAS HELPED THEM DURING POST PANDEMIC TIMES TO MAKE IT THROUGH.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND THIS IS WHERE I WOULD CALL ON LEGISLATOR TO REALLY EXAMINE WHAT WE HAVE DONE TO SMALL BUSINESSES.

GAMBLING NOT ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE EK DOTE HERE.

WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS COMPREHENSIVE, FAIR WITH EQUITY TAXATION AND REGULATION OF OTHER INDUSTRIES THAT MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR MIDDLE-OF-CLASS BUSINESSES AND SMALL MOM-AND-POP ENTERPRISES TO THRIVE.

THE THE LEGISLATURE HAS NOT 4 A GREAT TRACK RECORD OF THAT IN THE LAST LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS.

AWAY REALLY NEED TO WORK ON THAT, NOT USE GAMBLING AS A STOPGAP THEY SO THEY HAVE TO TURN THERE FOR CLOSING THE GAP ON PROFITS.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BILL THAT WOULD REGULATE AND TAX, AND THIS IS REPRESENTATIVE STEVE DOMES' BILL 5 DRIVE 25.

MR. HELERINGER, I WANT TO COME TO YOU FIRST BECAUSE THIS WOULD CREATE A KENTUCKY GAMING COMMISSION TO REGULATE THESE MACHINESWHERE EVER WHEREVER THEIR THEY ARE.

AND WE HEARD THERE ARE TENS OF THOUSANDS, AND YOU CAN CORRECT THAT IF IT'S A MISTAME.

IT WOULD TAX THE GAMES AT A RATE OF 6%.

SAME AS THE STATE SALES T. >> IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT IT DOESN'T LEGALIZE THE GAMES.

WE'RE ALREADY LEGAL.

IT ACKNOWLEDGES THE FACT THAT WE NEED TO BE REGULATED.

WE NEED TO BE TAXED BEYOND WHAT WE ARE.

IN SOME COUNTIES WE DO PAY AN OCCUPATIONAL TAX PER MACHINE, BUT THAT'S VERY NEGLIGIBLE.

I DON'T ANY YOU'VE EVER HAD A SHOW, RENEE, WHERE PEOPLE CAME ON THE SET HERE AND SAID, WE'RE GOING TO FRANKFORT.

WE WANT TO BE REGULATED AND TAXED.

OKAY?

THAT'S A VERY SELECT GROUP OF INTEREST GROUPS.

BUT WE DO, AS WE ARE IN OTHER STATES, AND WE'RE GOOD CORPORATE CITIZENS & IN THE COUNTIES WHERE WE'RE LOCATED.

WE'RE INVOLVED IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

WE'RE NO PREYING ON CHILDREN.

-- NOT PREYING ON CHILDREN.

WE'RE NOT DEVASTATING NEIGHBORHOODS.

THIS IS A LITTLE GAME AT IT CONVENIENCE STORE.

IF SOMEBODY GOES IN 20 BUY A SIX BACK OF BEER FOR A CARTON OF MILK, THEY MIGHT WANT TO PLAY A GAME OR TWO ON ONE OF OUR MACHINES.

AND BY THE WAY I WANT TO CORRECT SOMETHING MARK SAID.

WHEN I SAID NONE OF OUR GAMES, I MEANT OUR GAMES, OUR COMPANY GAMES HAVE NOT BEEN PICKED UP AND WERE NOTES PROSECUTED INDEPENDENT ROUND COUNTY CASE, IT INVOLVED PACE-O-MATIC, AND THAT'S A TEST CASE OBVIOUSLY, BUT WE'LL WIN THAT.

WE HAVEN'T LOST ANYWHERE.

>> SO I WANT TO GO TO YOU, MR.

BARLEY, HAVE YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT ROUND COUNTY CASE.

>> YEAH, WE WORKED WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT TO HAVE THAT PICKED UP TO ADDRESS THESE EXACT ATTACKS WE'RE GETTING TO GO AHEAD AND APPROVE THAT OUR GAME IS A LEGAL GAME OF SKILL.

WE'VE DONE THAT IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS.

THE WE'RE VERY CONFIDENT WE WILL WIN.

THE OTHER ISSUE I WOULD ADDRESS THAT WAS BROUGHT UP IS THE ISSUE OF CRIME.

WE HAVE A FULL-TIME STAFF OF FORMER LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS THAT GO AROUND AND WORK WITH OUR LOCATIONS TO TRY TO WORK AND SELF-REGULATE THE BEST WE CAN SO THE STATE HOPEFULLY IMPLEMENTS REAL REGULATION.

BUT WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CRIME, AND I WOULD HOPE THAT CHURCHILL WOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT CRIME.

IN PENNSYLVANIA THAT MR. GUILFOYLE REFERENCED, ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IN PENNSYLVANIA AT CASINOS IS KIDS BEING LOCKED IN CARS.

I THINK WE ALL AGREE THAT'S A DIFFICULT PROBLEM.

CHURCHILL'S CASINO IN CHURCHILL DOWNS THEY HAD TWO KIDS LOCKED IN CARS A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.

ONE WAS LOCKED IN A CAR AT 90-DEGREE TEMPERATURES OVER 20 MINUTES.

THEY HAVE TO DEVELOP AN ENTIRE PROGRAM AROUND PARENTS NOT LOCKING THEIR KIDS IN CARS.

THAT'S A PROBLEM.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THEFT P. THEFT IS TERRIBLE.

BUT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE HEALTH AND SAFETY CHILDREN, THERE'LL BAD, AND THAT'S WHERE WE SEE THESE CRIMES OCCURRING AT THESE CASINOS.

IN LOUISVILLE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE STATS, IT'S THE MECCA OF CRIME, IS THE HHR FACILITY IN LOUISVILLE.

THERE'S NO OTHER BIG VENUE THERE THAT EVEN GETS CLOSE TO THE AMOUNT OF CRIME.

>> SO THIS QUESTION FOR MR. GUILFOYLE, THIS IS FROM LEONARD IN PIKE COUNTY.

WHAT IS THE MOTIVATION FOR CHURCHILL DOWNS AND BANNING THE MACHINES?

WHAT IS THEIR STAKE IN IT?

>> WELL, I WOULD CY FIRST OF ALL I REPRESENT THE KENTUCKIANS AGAINST ILLEGAL GAMBLING.

THAT'S A NON-PROFIT KENTUCKY CORPORATION THAT WAS FORMED TO FIGHT ILLEGAL GAMBLING LIKE GRAY GAMES.

OUR COALITION IS BROAD-BASED.

WE HAVE MANYREs FROM THE EQUINE -- REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE EQUINE INDUSTRY.

WE HAVE KEEP.

WE HAVE RACE FOR EDUCATION.

WE HAVE HORSEMEN'S GROUPS.

WE HAVE CHURCHILL DOWNS.

WE ALSO HAVE THE KENTUCKY CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, GREATER LOUISVILLE, INC., COMMERCE LEXINGTON, ENTITIES THAT ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THE GAMING INDUSTRY.

SO WHAT OUR COALITION STANDS FOR IS PUTTING A STOP TO ILLEGAL GAMBLING.

NOW, JUST TO RESPOND TO A COUPLE THINGS, MR. HELERINGER SAYS WE HAVEN'T LOST ANYWHERE.

MR. HELERINGER FILED A LAWSUIT IN FRANKLIN COUNTY BACK IN DECEMBER OF 2021, AND HE ASKED ON BEHALF OF HIS CLIENT FOR THE COURT TO DECLARE THAT GRAY GAMES ARE LEGAL.

THAT CASE WAS DISMISSED IN JUNE OF LAST YEAR, AND NO APPEAL WAS TAKEN.

THE CASE WAS DISMISSED AND NO APPEAL WAS TAKEN.

I DON'T CONSIDER THAT A WIN.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE TAX AND REGULATE BILL THAT YOU ASKED ABOUT.

FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THE STATE FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE JUST RECENTLY PULLED OUT OF THEIR FUNDRAISING PARTNERSHIP WITH THE GRAY GAMES INDUSTRY.

THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THEIR TAX AND REGULATE BILL, THEIR PROPOSING A 6% TAX ON GROSS PROFITS.

AND EARLIER THE COMPARISON WAS MADE TO 1.5% ON PARI-MUTUEL WAGERING.

THAT'S APPLES TO ORANGES BECAUSE THE 1.5% IS ON TOTAL HANDLE OR TOTAL AMOUNT WAGERED.

THE 6% IS ON GROSS PROFITS.

SO HOUSE BILL 525 DEFINES GROSS PROFITS AS THE AMOUNT OF MONEY PUT INTO THE MACHINE MINUS THE AMOUNT TAKEN OUT.

SO IF YOU PUT $100 IN AND THE BETTERS GET $90 BACK, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE $10?

A, IT DOESN'T GET TAXED.

AND B, IT GOES OUT OF STATE TO THESE COMPANIES.

AND ONE THING I'LL SAY ABOUT CHURCHILL DOWNS, THEIR HEADQUARTERED IN KENTUCKY.

THEY ARE A TRUE CORPORATE CITIZEN.

AND THEY FOLLOW THE LAW.

NOW, THIS 6% TAX, KEEP THIS IN MIND, RENEE, THEY'RE GOING TO -- HOUSE BILL 525 HAS SPLITS IN IT.

THEY ONLY ALLOCATE 10% OF THE TAX TO GO TO THE KENTUCKY STATE POLICE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO ENFORCE THIS NEW BILL.

10%.

AND THE KENTUCKY STATE POLICE DON'T EVEN CONTROL, IN MOST URBAN AREAS IN KENTUCKY, 5%, A MEASLY 5% GOES TO FUND THIS NEW STATE GOVERNMENT AGENCY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO CREATE, SOMETHING CALLED THE KENTUCKY GAMING COMMISSION.

THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN ENFORCE THE REGULATIONS ON 40,000 MACHINES STATEWIDE ON THAT KIND OF MEASLY PALTRY AMOUNT OF MONEY.

IT'S NOT GOING TO FLY.

IT JUST WON'T WORK.

>> SO TO THIS QUESTION, I'LL GIVE THIS REVEREND GILL BETTERED, THE BAN BILL COULD LEAD TO MORE GAMBLING RATHER THAN STOPPING ILLEGAL GAMBLING SO WHY NOT SPOTTER REGULATION?

>> I'M NOT SURE WE'RE OOH POSED TO REGULATION.

I THINK THE FIRST STOP STOW SAY FROM THE COALITION OF CHURCHES THAT I REPRESENT WOULD BE THAT THERE ISN'T A GOOD THING THAT COMES FROM A GAMBLING EXPANSION, AND THE EXPANSION THAT IS USED TO SORT OF SUPPORT STATE GOVERNMENT WE THINK IS A SUSPECT WAY TO RUN.

THIS IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

IT'S NOT WISE.

IT'S NOT SAL UBIQUITY RUSS IN ANY WAY TO THE GOVERNANCE OF THE COMMONWEALTH.

THE SOCIAL COSTS WHERE WE HAVE MINORS THAT ARE GOING TO BE IMPACTED, I THINK MR. HELERINGER YOU POINTED OUT THAT HHR MACHINES ARE -- OF CRIME.

THIS BILL OR GRAY GAMES IF NOT STOPPED WILL CREATE MANY CASINOS ACROSS THE STATE.

WE WOULD HAVE THOUSANDS OF LITTLE LOCUSTS OF THESE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE WERE PROBLEMS WHERE PROBLEM GAMBLING IS A PROBLEM AFFECTS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 6 AND 10 PERCENT OF THOSE WHO SAY THEY GAMBLE, THAT COULD LEAVE A GREAT NUMBER OF PLACES THAT WOULD, WELL, SIMPLY BE LOCUSTS FOR THINGS THAT AREN'T HELPFUL.

>> CAN I JUMP IN?

>> DOES THE BILL ADDRESS OR PUT A LOT OF PERCENTAGE TO PROBLEM BLESS?

>> THERE IS -- GAMBLERS.

>> THERE IS SOME IN THE BILL.

BUT FOR THE SECOND TIME THIS EVEN MARK SAID I MISSTATED THE RECORD OR WARS WAS WRONG.

LET ME TELL BUT FRANKLIN CIRCUIT COURT.

WE'RE DAMMED IF WE DO OR DON'T.

THEY SAY WE'RE ILLEGAL SO WE TOOK THE INITIATIVE, OUR COMPANY, AND FILED A DECLARATION OF RIGHTS IN THE CIRCUIT COURT.

MARK'S A LAWYER.

THAT'S ASKING A JUDGE TO TELL THE PARTIES WHAT THE LAW IS, AND WE DID THAT AFTER WE ASKED FOR AN OPINION FROM THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THAT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE WE WERE GOING TO GET THAT, SO WE GO TO FRANKLIN COUNTY AND FILE THAT ACTION BECAUSE THE COUNTY ATTORNEY IN FRANKLIN SAID, WE'RE WE'RE NOT GOING TO -- WE'RE GOING TO ISSUE MORE OCCUPATIONAL LICENSES FOR YOUR CURRENT MACHINE BUT NO NEW ONES, SO THAT WAS ENOUGH TO GO TO COURT AND ASK THE JUDGE FOR A DECLARATION.

AND WE TOOK ALL THE RISK ON THAT.

THE JUDGE COULD HAVE RULED AGAINST US.

AND THE DAY AFTER WE FILED THE LAWSUIT, THE COUNTY ATTORNEY CALLED ME UP AND SAID, HEY, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

WHAT DID YOU SUE US FOR?

WITHDRAW YOUR CASE.

AND WE STILL DIDN'T EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS NO CASE OR CONTROVERSY.

WE ASKED THE JUDGE TO STILL RULE ON IT BECAUSE LATER DOWN THE ROAD THERE COULD BE A PROBLEM WITH A NEW COUNTY ATTORNEY.

AND THE JUDGE SAID, NO, I'M SORRY, I DON'T DEAL IN THEORETICAL CASES.

I ONLY DEAL IN ACTUAL CASES.

SO HE DISMISSED THAT.

THERE'S NO APPEAL BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T HAVE WON AN APPEAL OF THAT.

THE JUDGE REALLY WAS RIGHT.

BUT THAT'S THE BACKGROUND OF THAT, AND THAT'S NOT A LOSS.

THAT'S CREDIT TO US FOR TRYING TO GET A LEGAL RESOLUTION FROM A NEUTRAL DETACHED JUDGE THAT WE'RE LEAGUE.

WE HAD EVER CONFIDENCE WE WERE GOING TO WIN THAT CASE ONCE HE SAW THE MACHINES, ONCE HE SAW HOW THEY OPERATED, LOOKED AT THE LAW AS IT CURRENTLY IS.

WE HAD EVERY CONFIDENCE WE WERE GOING TO WIN THAT CASE.

>> MR.

BARLEY, THERE IS AN AD THAT IS TARGETING REPRESENTATIVE KILLIAN TIMONEY, THE REPUBLICAN FROM ELECTRICS WHO WAS THE SPONSOR OF HOUSE BILL 525 THAT WOULD BAN OR, HE SAYS A DIFFERENT WORD FOR THAT, NOT BAN, GRAY MACHINES.

IS PACE-O-MATIC BEHIND THOSE ATTACK ADS OF REPRESENTATIVE TIMONEY THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH GRAY MACHINES OR SKILL GAMES AT ALL BUT THEY GO AFTER HIS RECORD ON TRANSGENDER SPORTS.

>> NO.

AND, LOOK, I'VE SEEN THE REPORTS.

NO, WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

WE ARE WORKING TO HELP SMALL BUSINESSES THAT WOULD BE ATTACKED BY HIS POSITION ON SKILL GAMES.

THAT WOULD BE AFFECTED BY A BAN.

REPRESENTATIVE TIMONEY, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, HASN'T BEEN IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

I'M NOT SURE HE UNDERSTANDS WHAT IT IS LIKE TO SIGN THE FRONT OF A PAYCHECK.

THAT'S REALLY WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE.

SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS IN KENTUCKY WHO ARE MAKING $25,000, $30,000 A YEAR OFF THE REVENUE, THAT DOESN'T COUNT PROBABLY THE ADDITIONAL REVENUE THEY MIGHT HAVE FROM SOMEBODY THAT MIGHT SIT AT THE TABLE AND HAVE AN EXTRA DRINK OR A MEAL, THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

THAT EXTRA REVENUE IS ALLOWING THEM TO STAY IN BUSINESS.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT AD'S COMING FROM.

I WOULD SEW ASSUME -- >> MR. >> IS THAT COMING FROM YOUR COMPANY?

>> MAY I SAY ON THE AIR AND ON THE RECORD ABOUT WHAT AN OUTSTANDING REPRESENTATIVE MR. TIMONEY IS.

HE'S ONE OF THE FEW REPUBLICANS -- I ASK LOBBIED 20 FAIRNESS CAMPAIGN, AND REPRESENTATIVE TIMONEY IS ONE OF THE FEW THAT HAVE SPOKEN OUT IN DEFENSE OF GAY KENTUCKIANS AND TRANSGENDER KIDS, SO I WANT TO THANK HIM FOR THAT, BUT I DO DISAGREE WITH HIM ON HIS POSITION ON 594, BUT OUR COMPANY IS NOT RUNNING.

ANY MEDIA WHATSOEVER.

THEY HAVE PUT ALL THEIR HOPES IN ME.

SO GOOD LUCK, RIGHT?

>> NO COMMENT ON THAT.

>> OKAY.

>> I DO NEED TO ASK MR. GUILFOYLE, IS THIS THE KIND OF ISSUE THAT REQUIRES A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT?

>> NO.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT IT NEEDS THAT STEP?

>> NO, IT DOES NOT.

IT DOES NOT.

THE KENTUCKY LEGISLATURE HAS BROAD AUTHORITY, WE CALL IT POLICE POWER, TO REGULATE THE MORALS OF THE COMMONWEALTH, SO TO PASS ANTI-GAMBLING LAWS AND STATUTES, ALCOHOL LAWS, BROAD AUTHORITY TO DO ALL OF THAT DOES NO TAKE A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO DO SO.

IT'S A SIMPLE AMENDMENT OF THE GAMBLING STATUTE, WHICH BOB WAS RIGHT, I'M GOING TO TELL YOU RIGHT, BOB WAS RIGHT ABOUT SOMETHING, IT IS CHAPTER 528, BUT THAT IS A CRIMINAL STATUTE, AND IF YOU VIOLATE THAT STATUTE, YOU'RE COMMITTING A CRIME.

SO IT IS A FELONY TO SET UP AND OPERATE A GAMBLING DEVICE IN KENTUCKY.

THIS IS VERY SERIOUS.

SO WHEN MR. BASHINGY TALKS ABOUT SMALL BUSINESSES, I WONDER WHETHER THEY HAVE REALLY WEIGHED WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE BECAUSE AT THIS POINT SOMEBODY SHOWED UP AT THEIR DOOR AND SAID, HEY, WE'D LIKE TO PUT THREE MACHINES IN YOUR FRONT DOOR HERE.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY US.

IN FACT, WE'RE GOING TO PAY UP.

WE'RE GOING TO GIVE YOU A CUT AND IT'S GOING TO BE GREAT.

NOW, IF THEY'RE SUCCESSFUL IN PASSING HOUSE BILL 525, ALL OF THESE LITTLE BUSINESSES NOW HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE 37 PAGES IN THIS BILL THAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO COMPLY WITH, AND THEY MAY WELL LOSE THEIR LIQUOR LICENSE IF THEY DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF RISK INVOLVED IF THIS GOES FORWARD FOR THE SMALL BUSINESSES, AND I DON'T THINK THEY'VE REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

AND IF OTHER THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT IN VIRGINIA THERE HAVE BEEN OVER 150 LAWSUITS FILED BY THE GRAY GAME OPERATORS AGAINST THE SMALL MOM H. AND POPS WHO AFTER THEY HAD THE GRAY MACHINES FOR A WHILE DECIDED, YOU KNOW WHAT, MAYBE I DON'T LIKE THE PEOPLE COMING IN OR I DON'T LIKE THE CROWD AT A TRACTS, I WANT THEM OUT.

THE ANSWER IS NO.

YOU SIGNED A CONTRACT HERE.

>> THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT TRUE.

THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL.

AND HE SHOULD KNOW PERT BETTER.

THISH IS THEY'RE BRINGING IN ILLEGAL GAMES.

THE OTHER THING I MENTIONED ASIDE FROM MY NAME IS BARLEY.

>> I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT.

>> THE CHAMBER'S SUPPORT OF THE BAN.

THAT IS MR. GUILFOYLE'S -- ON THE CHAMBER BOARD.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF BUTTONS PUSHED, A LOT OF PEOPLE GETTING SHOVED ON THIS ISSUE FROM VERY HIGH UP AND REALLY IMPACTING SMALL BUSINESSES DISMAYS A SHAME.

THE CHAMBER APPROVED THEY ARE THE CHAMBER OF BIG BUSINESS, NOT SMALL BUSINESS.

>> SO IN A SMALL BUSINESS DECIDED THAT THEY NO LONGER WANTED TO CARRY THOSE GRAY MACHINES, HOW DO GET THEY GET OUT OF CONTRACT?

>> THEY CAN CALL AND US WE'LL MOVE IT TO ANOTHER LOCATION.

THE PROCESS WITH THOSE -- WERE THEM BRINGING IN ILLEGAL GAMBLING DEVICES.

>> I AM A PROUD MEMBER OF THE BOARD CHAMBER, BUT 70% OF OUR NUMBERS ARE SMALL BUSINESS.

IT'S NOT ALL BROWN-FORMAN AND BEAM SUN ENTRY TRI.

WE REPRESENT THE MALL BUSINESSES OF KENTUCKY.

I'M VERY PROUD OF THAT.

>> THEN WHY TAKE A POSITION COUNTER TO THEM?

>> I THINK I JUST EXPLAINED THAT I DON'T THINK THAT SMALL BUSINESSES HAVE REALLY FIGURED OUT WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE.

IF THEY PASS THE TAX AND REGULATE BILL, THEY'RE GOING TO BE SUBJECT TO A MOUND REGULATIONS, AND THEY'RE ALSO GOING TO BE BEHOLDEN TO WHATEVER AGREEMENT THEY SIGNED WITH THESE GRAY GAME OPERATORS.

IF THEY REALLY THOUGHT THAT THROUGH, I DON'T THINK SO.

>> GENTLEMEN, WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

SO MUCH MORE TO BE SAID BUT WE'LL ERR HEAR ABOUT IT IN THE KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY AS THESE BILLS MOVE THROUGH THE PROCESS.

YOU CAN SEE IT RIGHT HERE ON KET.

STAY WITH US BECAUSE AFTER A SHORT BREAK, THE DEBATE OVER LEGALIZING SPORTS BETTING IN KENTUCKY.

WE'LL SEE IN YOU JUST A MOMENT.

>> Renee: WELCOME BACK TO "KENTUCKY TONIGHT."

I'M RENEE SHAW.

NOW WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT SPORTS BETTING IN KENTUCKY.

HOUSE BILL 551 FILED LAST WEEK WOULD MAKE IT LEGAL TO BET ON SPORTS OUTCOMES IN KENTUCKY.

SUPPORTERS OF THE IDEA SAY PEOPLE ARE BETTING ON SPORTING EVENTS ANYWAY AND KENTUCKY ISN'T GETTING ANY BENEFIT FROM IT.

LEGISLATION LIKE THIS HAS BEEN OPPOSED BY PEOPLE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SOCIAL HARM TO KENTUCKIANS.

SO OUR GUESTNESS OUR LEXINGTON STUDIO TO TALK IT ARE SENATOR DAMON THAYER A REPUBLICAN FROM GEORGETOWN AND SENATE MAJORITY FLOOR LEADER.

RICHARD NELSON, FOUNDER ANDY EXECUTIVE DEFECT COMMONWEALTH POLICY CENTER.

STATE REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MEREDITH, A REPUBLICAN FROM OAKLAND.

AND KENT GISH HANGS AROUND WITH THE KENTUCKY COUNCIL OF CHURCHES.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING WITH US AND WE STILL WANT YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS ON THIS PORTION OF OUR PROGRAM.

SO SEND US YOUR QUESTIONS by TWITTER @KYTONIGHTKET.

SEND AN EMAIL TO KYTONIGHT@KET.ORG.

OR USE THE WEB FORM AT KET.ORG/KYT.

OR JUST SIMPLY GIVE US A call A.

WELCOME.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

SO SPORTS BETTING.

LET'S TALK ABOUT WHY AND WHERE.

REPRESENTATIVE MICHAEL MEREDITH, THIS IS YOUR BILL.

I'M GOING TO GIVE THE FLOOR TO YOU FIRST.

TELL US ABOUT -- THIS BILL NOTHING FORTUNE FOREIGN TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

SEVERAL YEARS IT'S COME UP BEFORE.

HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT THAN PREVIOUS ITERATIONS.

>> >> THANKS, RENEE.

THINKS THE THIRD OR FOURTH YEAR WE HAVE HAD A SPORT WAGERING BILL IN FRANKFORT.

THE BILL HAD BEEN CHAMPIONED BY REPRESENTATIVE ADAM KOENIG FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.

I HAD BEEN A COSPONSOR OF THAT LEGISLATION.

WE STARTED WITH THE BASIS AND THE FOUNDATION THAT HAD BEEN LAID ON THOSE PREVIOUS BILLS, AND THEN STARTED WORKING FORWARD.

WE KNEW THAT ONLINE POKER, FANTASY SPORTS HAD BEEN AN ISSUE WHEN THE BILL GOT OVER TO THE SENATE IN THE PAST AND SO WE REMOVED THOSE TO START WITH.

WE ALSO LOOKED AT THE REGULATOR STRUCTURE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE HORSE RACING COMMISSION HAD ENOUGH AUTHORITY TO LICENSE AND REGULATE AND WORKED WITH THEM ON THE LANGUAGE TO MAKE SURE THEY DID.

AND THEN WE WORKED WITH THE INDUSTRY TO MAKE SURE THIS WAS MODERN LANGUAGE THAT WOULD WORK AND GET AROUND SOME OF THE POTENTIALLY PITFALLS IN OTHER STATES THAT HAVE DONE THIS.

SPORTS WAGERING IS A PRETTY NEW THING IN THE MARKET ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IF YOU LOOK THEY FEDERAL LEVEL WAS OVERTURNED IN MAI 2018 BUT SINCE THEN 36 STATES AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA HAVE LEGALIZED SOME TYPE 6 A SPORTS WAGERING PROGRAM INSIDE THEIR JURISDICTIONS.

OUR BILL WOULD ALLOW THIS TO TAKE PLACE AT THE LICENSED RACETRACKS IN KENTUCKY AT A PHYSICAL LOCATION, A BOOK, OR THROUGH MOBILE SITES THAT THEY WOULD CREATE WITH PARTNERS IN THE SORTS WAGERING SPACES WITH.

>> SO NO SPORTING VENUES LIKE PREVIOUS TIMES.

I THINK KENTUCKY SPEEDWAY MIGHT HAVE BENEFITED FROM A PREVIOUS ITERATION.

>> THAT WHAT IS IN PREVIOUS VERSIONS OF THE BILL.

IT'S NOT IN THE LATEST.

NO, IT IS NOT IN THIS VERSION OF THE BILL, JUST THE LICENSED RACETRACKS IN KENTUCKY THAT L. ALREADY OFFER SPORTS.

>> SO NO FANTASY SPORTS?

>> NO DAILY FANTASY SPORTS AS WELL.

>> ANYTHING ELSE YOU CARE TO ADD ABOUT THIS, SENATOR THAYER& WITH WHAT HAS BEEN PROPOSED IS THIS SOMETHING THE SENATE WILL EMBRACE THIS TIME AROUND?

>> I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE WHOLE SENATE.

WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO PASS IT THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

I WILL CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE FOR IT.

I BELIEVE THAT SPORTS SPEIGHT NATURAL EXTENSION OF OUR HISTORY AND TRADITION OF BETTING ON HORSES IN KENTUCKY.

THAT'S SPORTS WAGERING.

IT'S LEGALLY DEFIND IN THE PARI-MUTUEL STATUTES.

AND I JUST KNOW THAT THIS IS EXTREMELY POPULAR.

IT POLLS OFF THE CHARTS, 65% PLUS KENTUCKIANS, INCLUDING THE MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS THINKY SHEWED HAVE SPORTS WAGERING IN KENTUCKY.

I THINK THAT THINK WE SHOULD HAVE SPORTS WAGERING IN KENTUCKY I THINK WITH SIX OF OUR SEVEN SURROUNDING STATE'S HAVING LEGALIZED IT, IT PUTS US IN A POOR COMPETITIVE POSITION.

AND I HEAR STORIES ALL THE TIME ABOUT PEOPLE GOING TO TENNESSEE OR INDIANA OR OHIO BECAUSE THE GEOLOCATION DEVICE ON THEIR PHONE WON'T LET THEM MAKE A BET IN KENTUCKY.

SO THEY'RE DRIVING TO OTHER STATES, MAKING THEIR WAGES ARE OVER THERE.

THEY CAN TO GO A BRICK AND MORTAR SPORTS BOOK IN SENATE CINCINNATI.

THEY'RE SHOPPING OVER THERE, GETTING GROCERIES OVER THERE BEFORE THEY COME HOME TO KENTUCKY.

SO IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE SPORTS WAGERING.

IT'S ABOUT THE ACTIVITY THAT THEY'RE ENGAGING IN WHEN THEY GO TO OTHER STATES.

EVERYWHERE I I GO, WHETHER IT'S THE GYM, THE GROCERY STORE, THE MOVIES, UK BASKETBALL GAME.

I RECENTLY WENT TO AN NKU GAME UP IN NORTHERN KENTUCKY.

AND IT'S IF FIRST THING PEOPLE ASK ME, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO PASS SPORTS BETTING?

IT'S RIDICULOUS, THEY SAY, EVEN PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO MAKE A SPORTS BEATEN TO KNOW WHEN WE'RE GOING PASS IT BECAUSE THEY THINK IT'S SOMETHING WE SHOULD HAVE.

>> HOW MUCH WOULD THE STATE BETTER THAN SPLIT.

>> THE STUDY SHOWS $22 MILLION WOULD GO TO THE GENERAL FUND BUT I THINK THAT IS REMARKABLY LOW.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE OTHER STATES THAT HAVE LEGALIZED SPORTS BETTING, THE TAX RECEIPTS TO THE GENERAL FUND HAVE AS FAR EXCEEDED EXPECTATIONS.

AND REPRESENTATIVE MEREDITH'S BILL HAS ANY OF THAT MONEY GOING INTO THE PENSION FUND SO THAT FUTURE GENERAL ASSEMBLIES COULD THEN USE IT TO PAY TEACHER PENSIONS, STATE EMPLOYEE PENSIONS AND THE LIKE, AND, YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN PAYING -- WE'RE GOING TO BE PAYING OFF OUR PUBLIC EMPLOYEE PENSIONS FOR A LONG TIME, AND ANY EXTRA MONEY FOR THAT I THINK WOULD BE USEFUL.

>> ANY MONEY GOING TOWARD PROBLEM AM GAMBLING?

>> THAT WOULD HAVE IN A SEPARATE BILL, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I COULD SUPPORT IF WE HAD AN ECUMENICAL APPROACH.

RIGHT NOW THERE ARE THREE LEGALIZED FORMS OF GAMBLING IN KENTUCKY, PARE KNEW HORSE RACING, CHARITABLE GAMING AND THE LOTTERY, AND IF WE ADD SPORTS BETTING AS PART OF THE LEGALIZED WAGERING MENU, I COULD SUPPORT 234 A BUDGET YEAR MOST LIKELY MAKING SURE THAT EVERYBODY IN ALL FOUR OF THOSE SECTORS PAYS A SMALL AMOUNT INTO A PROBLEM GAMBLING FUND.

I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING REASONABLE.

AND WE FRANKLY SHOULD HAVE DONE IT BASS LAST YEAR WITH REPRESENTATIVE KOENIG'S BILL BUT WE WERE FOCUSED ON HOUSE BILL 607 WHICH WAS THE PARE UHL MUTUAL TAXATION BILL AND TRYING TO GET THE SPORTS GAMING PASSED AND GET THE GRAY MACHINES GAME PASSED.

WE ARE SPORTS CRAZY IN KENTUCKY.

I MEAN, THIS IS -- I'VE LIVED IN FOUR STATES.

THIS IS MY FOURTH AND FINAL STATE.

THIS IS WHERE I'VE BEEN FOR 30 YEARS AND PLAN TO THE REST OF MY LIFE HERE.

SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE HERE.

I'VE NEVER SEEN A PLACE LIKE THIS.

PEOPLE HAVE LO THEIR SPORTS HERE, AND THEY JUST WANT AN OPPORTUNITY TO EARTH GO TO THEIR LOCAL RACETRACK OR ON THEIR PHONES MAKE A WAGER ON THEIR FAVORITE TEAM OR ATHLETE LIKE PEOPLE IN OUR SURROUNDING STATES ARE DOING.

>> MR. NELSON, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS IDEA?

>> I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH THAR SNARE.

JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE DEMANDING SOMETHING DOESN'T TRANSLATE INTO GOOD PUBLIC POLICY, AND PEOPLE ARE GAMBLING IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY ON SPORTS.

IN A FEW WEEKS WE HAVE THE MARCH MADNESS AND PEOPLE WILL BE FILLING OUT THEIR BRACKETS AND OFTENTIMES THEY WILL PUT MONEY IN A POOL.

WE JUST HAD THE SUPER BOWL AND PEOPLE PUT MONEY INTO THE OFFICE POOLS.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO MAKE A DISTINCTION, RENEE, BETWEEN SOCIAL GAMBLING AND STATE-SPONSORED PREDATORY GAMBLING.

SOCIAL GAMBLING IS TAKING PLACE IN COMMONWEALTH AND ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS A PUBLIC POLICY INTRODUCED BY OUR LEGISLATURE THAT OPENS THE DOOR TO CORRUPTING SPORTS.

WE HAVE SEEN THE CORRUPTION OF SPORTS WHEN GAMBLING COMES INTO PLAY.

WE BELIEVE THAT IT'S GOING TO ACCELERATE ADDICTIVE BEHAVIORS.

AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE NEXT GENERATION, WHAT WILL THIS DO TO KIDS.

I THINK THAT IT NORMALIZES GAMBLING TO KIDS.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IF THIS HAPPENS AS IS BEING TALKED ABOUT, PEOPLE WITH THE ABILITY TO GANAL GAMBLE ON A SMARTPHONE OR ON A DEVICE, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S JUST GAMBLING ON THE OUTCOME OF A GAME.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IN-GAME BETTING WHERE THEY BET ON DURING A FOOTBALL GAME, DID THEY MAKE A FIRST DOWN OR DOES MY TEAM SCORE A TOUCHDOWN ON THIS DRIVE.

AND THEN WHEN THE GAMES ARE DONE, RENEE, I THINK WE NEED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT OTHER ADS THAT GROUPS LIKE FANDUEL AND DRAFTKINGS ARE GOING TO BE RUNNING OTHER ADS, ONLINE CASINO TYPE GAMBLING, BLACKJACK AND POKER.

WHERE DOES THIS END?

HOW DOES IT AFFECT OUR KIDS AND WHERE DOES THIS END?

I THINK WE NEED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE PRONE TO ADDICTION.

I DON'T KNOW IF THE STATE HAS DONE A STUDY OR CONSIDERED THAT.

WHAT ARE THE COSTS AND BENEFITS INVOLVED HERE?

WHAT WHAT IS THE DOWNSIDE?

WHO DOES IT AFFECT?

AND ESPECIALLY THE LEAVES THESE IN COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY.

WE KNOW THAT THE POOR ARE VULNERABLE, THOSE WHO ARE DOWN ON THEIR HOPE.

THEY'RE LOOKING FOR A WAY OUT OF THEIR POVERTY.

AND INSTEAD OF THE STATE PROMOTING AND OPENING THE DOOR TO PREDATORY GAMBLING OPERATIONS, THE STATE SHOULD BE A FIREWALL TO ANY INDUSTRY THAT COMES IN AND THAT WOULD PREY ON ITS PEOPLE.

>> REVEREND GUILDER, DO YOU BELIEVE THE PREDATORY NATURE OF THIS TYPE OF PROPOSAL?

>> I THINK SO.

I THINK WHAT WE SEE BY RESEARCH, IN 2008 THE LEGISLATIVE RESEARCH COUNCIL WHEN THERE I WAS PROPOSAL FOR GAMBLING THROUGH CASINOS EXPANSION CLEARLY SHOWED THAT WHAT WE HAVE IS A NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO GAMBLE ARE NOT THE HIGHEST PAYING TAXPAYERS.

IT'S THE LOWER INCOME FOLKS WHO ARE.

AS WE SAY, OFTEN DISADVANTAGED BY CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCE LOOKING FOR HOPE, AND I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE NOTHING BUT SYMPATHY FOR THAT, BUT IT'S NOT A GOOD BASIS FOR PUBLIC POLICY.

IT'S NOT A WAY TO FUND ESSENTIAL STATE SERVICES.

AND TO RELY ON PEOPLE'S HOPES AND DREAMS ON THE CHANCE THAT THEY MIGHT HIT IT BIG IS TO TAKE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE EK TOTAL ONE IN A LITERALLY MILLIONS AND MILLIONS SHOT INSTEAD OF PROVIDING EQUAL OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO THRIVE ON THEIR OWN.

I MEAN, THE REASON THEY SAY THAT THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE HOUSE OFREs.

THAT'S NOT THE ONE WHO WINS IN THIS ONE.

THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS BECAUSE IT IS DESIGNED TO TAKE MONEY FROM PEOPLE YOU DON'T LOSE IF YOU ARE A CASINO.

>> SO THIS COMMENT FROM DAVID MILLINER OF VILLA HILLS, KENTUCKY, THE PARKING LOTS IN OHIO ARE FULL OF KENTUCKY LICENSE PLATES SO HOW MUCH REVENUE IS KENTUCKY LOSING BY NOT HAVING LEGAL SPORTS BETTING?

>> I ZWAI THIS AND I CAN'T DEBATE ANYBODY'S MORAL OBJECTIONS TO SOMETHING OR THEIR RELIGIOUS CONVICTIONS.

WHAT I CAN SAY IS THIS.

EVERYBODY HAS A DIFFERENT MORAL COMPASS.

THAT'S SHAPED BY WHO WE ARE AND OUR ENVIRONMENTS AROUND AND US THE GOD THAT WE ALL WORSHIP BUT I WANT TO SAY THIS.

MR. NELSON MENTIONED TAMPERING WITH A SPORTING EVENT AND WHAT COULD HAPPEN THERE.

WE PROVIDE MORE SEVERE PENALTIES FOR TAMPERING WITH A SPORTING EVENT IN THIS BILL.

>> SUCH AS?

>> A CLASS C FELONY, I BELIEVE IT IS.

I DON'T HAVE THAT RIGHT IN FRONT OFY ME RIGHT NOW BUT I BELIEVE IT IS.

WE ALSO HAVE SPECIFIC PENALTIES FOR BETTING BY PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THE GAMES, REFEREES, OFFICIALS, SPORTING ATHLETES, OWNERS OF THE TEAMS.

WE'VE TALKED ABOUT PROBLEM GAMING HERE, AND I AGREE WITH SENATOR THAYER, I THINK WE DO NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT PROBLEM GAMING.

I DON'T THINK THAT THIS BILL IS THE PLACE FOR IT BECAUSE AGAIN WE HAVE FOUR DIFFERENT TYPES OF LEGALIZED GAMBLING IN KENTUCKY, AND I THINK THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE ALL SHOULDERED BY THE SPORTS WAGERING INDUSTRY TO COVER THE PROBLEM GAMING.

WE SHOULD PUT THAT AND SPREAD THAT ACROSS ALL THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF GAMING THAT ARE ALLOWED IN THE STATE CURRENTLY.

BUT I ALSO WANT TO SAY YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT KIND OF MONEY WE'RE LOSING, AND THAT WAS THE QUESTION.

WE KNOW, BASED ON RESEARCH AND STUDY, THAT THERE'S ROUGHLY $1 BILLION BET IN THE ILLEGAL MARKETPLACE, THE ILLEGAL AND UNREGULATED MARKETPLACE FOR SPORTS WAGERING IN KENTUCKY AS WE SPEAK.

THAT DOESN'T COUNT THE FOLKS DRIVING ACROSS THE STATE LINES BACK AND FORTH.

THAT $22 MILLION, $23 MILLION IS I THINK A CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE BUT I THINK A REALISTIC ESTIMATE TOO.

AND TO MR. GILBERT'S POINT A DILL GETTER'S POINT A MOMENT AGO, WE'RE NOT PUTTING THIS MONEY DIRECTED TO PAY DIRECT STATE SERVICES.

WE'RE PUTTING THIS TOWARD A PENSION FUND THAT GOT BEHIND FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, AND THIS IS EXTRA DOLLARS THAT WE WILL BE ABLE TO PUT IN AT SOME POINT IN TIME TO HELP PAY DOWN THAT UNFUNDED LIABILITY THAT WAS CREATED OVER DECADES.

THIS IS NOT BASIC STATE SERVICES THAT WE'RE FUNDING WITH THIS MONEY.

>> MAY I RESPOND TO THAT JUST A MINUTE.

AND I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT THE MORALITY.

AGAIN, THE COUNCIL IS NOT AGAINST GAMBLING, BUT I DO THINK WE HAVE A BIGGER MORAL ISSUE WHICH IS THAT THE LEGISLATURE JUST CUT $1.2 BILLION FROM THE STATE COFFERS.

IT'S HARD TO CRY POOR AT THIS POINT IN THAT YOU'RE GOING TO NEED THE PALTRY 22 TO 40 MILLION DOLLARS THAT WE MIGHT SEE FROM SPORTS GAMBLING.

I WOULD SAY PENSIONS ARE A ESSENTIAL STATE SERVICES.

I THINK WE NEED TO THINK CAREFULLY ABOUT WHAT ARE THE COSTS HERE.

>> I'M NOT CRYING POOR HERE.

BUT THERE'S $1 BILLION BEING BET IN KENTUCKY IN ILLEGAL AND UNREGULATED MARKETPLACES, AND THIS BILL WILL PUT REGULATION TO THAT AND PUT CONSUMER PROTECTION FOR THOSE WHO ARE BETTING IN THE MARKETPLACE.

>> ESTONIA STEWART TWEETED, WILL ANY MOBILE SITE BE ALLOWED TO OPERATE OR ONLY HORSE TRACK BASED MOBILE SITES?

>> SO THE WAY THE BILL IS WRITTEN, EACH HORSE TRACK CAN GET A LICENSE.

EACH OF THOSE TRACKS CAN THEN LICENSE WITH UP TO THREE SPORTS BETTING PLATFORMS.

>> OKAY.

>> IF I COULD ADDRESS SOMETHING SENATOR MEREDITH OR REPRESENTATIVE MEREDITH SAID.

I'M SORRY.

>> THERE IS A SENATOR MEREDITH.

>> IN A SIMILAR NECK OF THE WOODS.

YOU CAN REGULATE AND INCUR OR PUT INTO LAW HIGHER PENALTIES FOR ANY CORRUPTION OF SPORTING EVENT.

YOU CAN COME DOWN HARD ON REFEREES.

YOU CAN COME DOWN HARDER ON PLAYERS THAT WOULD BE TAKING BRIBES.

AND WE'VE SEEN THIS HERE IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY.

BACK IN THE '50s, AT LEAST SOME OF US, I WASN'T AROUND THEN BUT THERE I WAS POINT-SHAVING SCANDAL IN THE NCAA BETWEEN 192747 TO 19 INFORMANT WHERE A TOTAL OF 33 PLAYERS AT SEVEN DIFFERENT SCHOOLS WERE FOUND INVOLVED WITH A POINT-SHAVING SCANDAL, AND BECAUSE OF UK MEN'S BASKETBALL INVOLVEMENT IN THAT, NECESSITY FORE WENT THE 52-53 SEASON.

BECAUSE OF CORRUPTION.

HERE'S MY QUESTION.

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH A SPORTS ATHLETE AT A COLLEGE THAT IS JUST TRYING TO MAKE ENDS MEET AND THEY'RE TEMPTED WITH A BRIBE?

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

HOW DO YOU EVEN TRACK SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

IN-GAME BETTING AT A VOLLEYBALL GAME.

>> SENATOR THAYER, DO YOU WANT TO ANSWER THAT?

>> WELL, I'M GLAD TO SEE MR. NELSON TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED IN 1950.

WE'RE NEARLY A QUARTER OF A WAY THROUGH THE 21st CENTURY, AND WE'RE STILL USING ARGUMENTS LIKE WE'RE COMING ON THE HEELS OF PROHIBITION.

I AM, THIS IS THE 21st CENTURY.

SPORTS BETTING IS A WIDELY ACCEPTED SOCIAL NORM.

AND THERE'S BEEN NO EVIDENCE IN THE STATES THAT HAVE LEGALIZED SPORTS BETTING FOR ANY OF THIS ELICIT BEHAVIOR THAT THESE GENTLEMEN ARE REFERRING.

IT'S A SPECIOUS ARGUMENT.

IT SOUNDS LIKE IT MIGHT BE TRUE BUT IT IS IN FACT NOT TRUE.

THERE'S MORE REGULATION IN PLACE THAN EVER BEFORE.

AND I'M GLAD ALSO TO HEAR MR. NELSON ADMIT THAT PEOPLE FROM KENTUCKY ARE WAGERING ON SPORTS.

SO WHY WOULD WE WANT TO LET THAT CONTINUE TO OCCUR IN A COMPLETELY UNREGULATED ENVIRONMENT?

WHY WOULD WE WANT PEOPLE TO DRIVE IN SOME CASES HOURS TO SURROUNDING STATES TO SPEND THEIR MONEY THERE?

YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO LIVE AND LET LIVE.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE A SPORE BET, DON'T GET AN APP ON YOUR PHONE, DON'T TO GO A LOCAL RACETRACK.

NO ONE'S HOLDINGS A GUN TO ANYONE'S HEAD TO TELL THEM TO GO TO THE RED NILE TO PAKE A BET ON THE SUPER BOWL.

>> IN 2016 THERE I WAS STUDY DONE BY THE NCAA MORE THAN 20,000 ATHLETES FOUND THAT MORE THAN A QUARTER OF THEM GAMBLED ON SPORTING EVENTS, MOSTLY NBA, NFL BUT SOME ADMITTED TO BETTING ON OTHER NCAA SPOTTY EVENTS.

SO TO MR. NELSON'S POINT, EVEN THOUGH HE CITED A 1950 SCENARIO, WE KNOW THAT THAT COULD STILL AND HAS AND DOES STILL OCCUR.

WHAT IS THE PENALTY FOR THOSE ATHLETES?

>> HE JUST TOLD YOU THAT THAT'S COVERED IN THE BILL, AND I WOULD NOTE THAT THAT OCCURRED BEFORE THE PASSAGE OF PASSFA AND BEFORE STATE'S, RARE TO THAT YOU COULD ONLY MAKE A LEGAL SPORTS BET IN NEVADA AND NEW JERSEY I THINK.

OR IT WAS JUST NEVADA.

>> NEVADA.

>> UNTIL THE SUPREME COURT THREW IT OUT AND SAID IT HAD TO BE REGULATED BY THE STATE.

>> YOU'VE GOT BASICALLY A TENTH AMENDMENT SITUATION GOING ON HERE WHERE EACH STATE IS PASSING THEIR OWN RULES, PASSING THESE TOUGH PENALTIES, AND WE'VE NOT SEEN ANY TYPE OF POINT-SHAVING SCANDALS LIKE HAPPENED 73 YEARS AGO BEFORE ANY OF US HERE WERE BORN.

>> HUMAN NATURE DOES NOT CHANGE.

IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN 75 YEARS AGO -- >> YOU DON'T TRUST PEOPLE.

YOU WANT TO TELL THEM HOW TO LIVE THEIR LIVES.

>> DON'T DON'T TELL ME HOW I THINK.

>> YOU WANT TO PREACH FROM YOUR PULPIT ABOUT WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.

>> TIMOTHY DON'T HAY WAS CAUGHT IN A GAMBLING SCANDAL REFERENEING NBA GAMES.

HE SPENT TIME IN JAIL.

IN THE ATLANTIC IN SEPTEMBER OF 2021 HAD AN ARTICLE, NOT A BASS CHONE OF CONSERVATIVISM BY THE WAY, IT WAS TITLED SPORTS GAMBLING IS A DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN, AND THEY TALK ABOUT THE CORRUPTION OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE.

THEY TALK ABOUT THE MAIN STREAMING OF AN ACTIVITY THAT WAS ONCE CONSIDERED A VICE, SOMETHING ON THE MESSENGER OF SOCIETY.

-- MARGINS.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING I SAID EARLIER.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOCIAL GAMBLING, GUYS A THURSDAY EVENING PLAYING POKER AND GAMBLING QUARTERS WHATEVER IT IS AND STATE-SPONSORED PREDATORY GAMBLING.

THE STATE SHOULD ENCOURAGE ACTIVITY THAT ENCOURAGES THRIFT, HARD WORK, SAVINGS, DELAYED GRATIFICATION, NOT GET RICH QUICK, NOT PREYING ON THE HOPES OF POOR PEOPLE.

MUCH OF THE MONEY THAT COMES INTO THE KENTUCKY LOTTERY,Y KNOW IT'S AN A DIFFERENT ISSUE, BUT IT'S FROM POOR PEOPLE.

SOMEBODY IS GOING TO WIN, MIGHT AS WELL BE PUNCH THE STATE IS INVOLVED WITH CREATING LOSERS WITH THE CONSTRUCTION OF SPORTS INGHAM GAMBLING I THINK THE SAME IS TRUE.

>> THIS HAVE BEEN SCANDALS IN SPORTS FOR YEARS.

BACK TO THE '50s, THE POINT-SHAVING SCANDAL THAT HE'S TALK ABOUT INTO THE '70s WHEN NEVADA WAS THE ONLY PLACE THAT YOU COULD DO THIS, BUT PEOPLE WERE THROWING GAMES ALL OVER THE COUNTRY BASED ON WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN NEVADA.

THOSE PENALTIES WERE NOT IN EXISTENCE IN A LOT OF THOSE OTHER STATES, AND NEVADA WAS THE ONLY PLACE GETTING THE ACTION, BUT THE ACTUAL -- THE ACTUAL GAMES WERE TAKING PLACE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

AND SO TO SAY THAT THIS IS GOING TO IDENTITY AND CHANGE WHAT'S BEEN GOING FOR YEARS IT WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING.

>> I WANT TO GET TO THE SPECIFICS.

YOU HAD THE KENTUCKY HORSE RACING COMMISSION THAT WOULD HAVE THE REGULATOR OVERSIGHT.

SHOULD THERE NOT BE AN INDEPENDENT GAMING COMMISSION TO DO THIS INSTEAD OF HORSE RACING FRIDAY IS?

>> NO I DON'T THINK SO.

WE DRAFTED THE BILL SPECIFICALLY.

OBVIOUSLY THE TRACKS ARE THE LICENSEES.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE HORSE HANGS COMMISSION HAS DONE OVER THE DECADES, PROBABLY CHORES TO A SHEAR E. CENTURY NOW WE HAVE BEEN EV THAT I HISTORY OF BEING ABLE TO REGULATE GAMING, BEING ABLE TO REGULATE WAGERING ON HORSE RABIES BEING ABLE TO OTT HHR MACHINES.

HEAVY A PROVEN TRACK RECORD.

WHY CREATE A NEW STATE AGENCY IF THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO TO DO THIS THEMSELVES.

>> WOULD THERE HAVE TO BE ANY BLOATING OF GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY TO MAKE SURE THAT'S WONK THE WAY IT SHOULDSOME.

>> I DON'T THINK IT DOES.

OBVIOUSLY THERE IS MONEY OFF THE TOP OF THIS THAT WILL GO TO FUNDING THE INCREASED RECORDS THEY WILL NEED AT THE RACING COMMISSION BUT AGAIN THAT COMES OFF THE TOP.

THE LEFTOVER FUNDS WILL GO INTO THE PUBLIC PENSION PERMANENT FUND.

>> THIS QUESTION FROM LAURIE B.

THIS IS A TWEET.

IF THE ARGUMENT FOR THIS IS PEOPLE WANT IT AND WE'RE LOSING MONEY TO OTHER STATES, WHY ARE THESE ISSUES NOT ALSO OR I THINK THE PERSON MEANT TO SAY YOUR THESE POINTS NOT ALWAYS VALID FOR LEGALIZATION OF MARIJUANA?

A SIGNIFICANT POLICY CHANGE SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE SUBSTANTIAL REASONS FOR APPROVAL.

A LITTLE ROUGH THERE ON THE TRANSCRIPTION BUT YOU GET THE POINT, LEADER THAYER.

>> YES.

AND THERE IS AN EFFORT RIGHT NOW TO SEE IF WE CAN DEVELOP A NARROWLY TAILORED MEDICAL MARIJUANA BILL.

THAT WOULD INVOLVE NONCOMBUSTIBLE PRESCRIBE BY A DOCTOR FOR A LIMITED NUMBER OF ADDICTIONS APPLICATIONS, AND I'M KEEPING AN OPEN MIND ON THAT.

NUMBER OF AFFLICTIONS.

>> THERE'S THE ANSWER TO THAT.

BACK OVER TO THIS SIDE.

MR. NELSON OR DEFINITE GILBERT, TO RESPOND TO WHAT YOU HEARD FROM REPRESENTATIVE MEREDITH.

>> I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE CAN LEGALIZE AND BRING NEW TAX REVENUE IS BUT THE QUESTION IS IS IT GOOD FOR SOCIETY, DOES IT CREATE A CULTURE FLOURISHING, DID IT PREY ON HUMAN WEAKNESS?

SENATOR THAYER MENTIONED MEDICAL MARIJUANA.

WHAT ABOUT RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA?

WHY NOT LEGALIZE THAT AND TAX IT?

WHAT DO WE SAY IF WE GET TO THE POINT WHERE HALF OF KENTUCKIANS, 55% OF KENTUCKIANS SAY WE WANT IT, WE'RE USING IT ANYWAY, DOES THE STATE LEGISLATURE COME IN AND SAY WE'RE GOING TO LEGALIZE IT AND TAX IT.

PEOPLE ARE DOING IT ANYWAY.

THERE ARE OTHER ACTIVITIES THAT ARE OUTSIDE THE MARGINS RIGHT NOW.

I MEAN, SEX WORK, PROGRESS.

>> THAT'S JUST A RIDICULOUS SPECIOUS ARGUMENT.

>> IT'S LEGAL IN LAS VEGAS.

>> YOU JUST WANT TO TELL PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE THEIR LIVES.

>> HEAVEN FORBID SOMEONE GO NO THE RED LINE AND MAKE A BET ON THE SUPER BOWL.

>> IT IS 202023, RENEE.

THESE ARGUMENTS ARE LIKE 1928.

>> THERE IS A SOCIAL COST TO INGHAM GAMBLING THOUGH.

YOU DO YOU ADMIT PEOPLE HAVE DEVELOPED -- >> THERE ARE SOCIAL COSTS TO EVERY HUMAN ACTIVITY.

>> THEY'RE NOT ALL LEGAL?

MANY OF THEM ARE LEGAL LIKE ALCOHOL AND TOBACCO AND THE FOODS WE EAT, THE AIR THAT WE BREATHE, DRIVING CARS.

WE MAKE CHOICES EVERY DAY.

SOME OF THEM ARE GOOD FOR US, SOME ARE BAD FOR US.

>> SO WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE ON ACTIVITY?

>> THERE WILL BE 49 LEGAL STATES FOR SPORE BETTING AND KENTUCKY WOULD BE THE ONLY UNONE STUCK IN 1928 I HAVE.

>> VOTED FOR MEDICINAL MARIJUANA IN THE PAST, I THINK TWICE NOW.

THE PILL HAS PASSED THE HOUSE.

BUT I WANT TO MAKE A CLEAR DISTINCTION HERE.

MARIJUANA IS STILL AN ILLEGAL SCHEDULED SUBSTANCE AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

WHEN PASCO WAS REFIELD IN MAY OF 2018, SPORTS WAGER BECAME A FEDERALLY LEGAL ACTION THAT STATES COULD THEN REGULATE.

AND AGAIN, 36 OUT OF THE 50 STATES AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA HAVE ALREADY TAKEN ACTION ON THIS AND ALREADY HAVE PROGRAMS OR ARE DEVELOPING PROGRAMS CURRENTLY FOR THIS.

JUST ONE MORE LITTLE PIECE OF DATA FROM THIS NFL SEASON THAT WE JUST COMPLETED.

GEOCOMPLY WHICH DOES GEOFENCING FOR MANY OF THESE SITES ACROSS THE COUNTRY DID OVER 5 MILLION CHECKS ON KENTUCKY-BASED ACCOUNTS DURING THE NFL SEASON, AND THOSE ATTRIBUTE BACK TOO-TO-181,000 UNIQUE ACCOUNTS THAT ARE REGISTERED IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS, MOSTLY PROBABLY SURROUNDING BECAUSE AGAIN LIKE SENATOR THAYER SAID SIX OF OUR SEVEN BORDER STATES ALREADY HAVE LEGAL PROGRAMS, WHERE FOLKS HAD ACCOUNTS REGISTERED IN NOSE JURISDICTIONS AND FRIED TO BET EITHER FROM THEIR HOMES OR AS THEY NEARED THE STATE BORDER INSTEAD OF WHEN THEY CROSSED THAT BORDER.

PEOPLE MAY DEPRIVE TWO HOURS TO DO THIS ACTIVITY BUT MANY TIMES PEOPLE ARE DRIVING LESS THAN FIVE MINUTES TO CROSS THAT BORDER LIONEL SO THEY CAN PLACE THEIR WEPT WE ARE NOT, BY NOT LEGALIZING THIS, STOPPING ANYONE FROM GAMBLING, WE'RE INTO THE NOT STOPPING ANYONE FROM TAKING PART IN ANY OF THESE ACTS OF.

WE'RE JUST NOT REGULATING IT IS IN THE STATE AND THE STATE IS NOT GETTING A SINGLE BENEFIT FROM IT CURRENTLY.

>> REINVENT GILBERT.

>> I THINK WE HAVE FIND OUT OUT THIS IS A COMPLICATED ISSUE AND, OF COURSE, PEOPLE I HAVE A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

I APPRECIATE SENATOR THAYER BUDGET BULLY IN BULLY PULPIT.

>> WORKED FOR 20 YEARS.

>> EXPERTS DIFFER.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE REALLY LOOKING AT HERE IS IT'S A QUESTION OF WHAT WILL ACTUALLY BE THE BEST STATE POLICY.

RELYING ON THINGS LIKE IF WE WERE TO BASE THE ENTIRE STATE POLICY ON ALCOHOL TAX THAT WOULDN'T BE WISE EITHER.

IF WE'RE LOOKING AT EXPANDED INGHAM GAMBLING ON THESE SIN TAXES,S THIS IS NOT THE SOUNDBITES OF GOOD STATE POLICY.

>> WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

ROBUST CONVERSATION.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING US TONIGHT.

WE WILL SEE YOU IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS ON "KENTUCKY TONIGHT."

I'LL SEE YOU TOMORROW NIGHT ON "KENTUCKY EDITION."