>> FREE SPEECH OR HATE SPEECH OVER GAZA... A LITTLE HERE, A LITTLE THERE AND PRETTY SOON THE DEBT IS $2 TRILLION DOLLARS.

AND SOME TRUMP LAWYERS CHANGING THEIR TUNE.

STAY TUNED, IVORY TOWER IS NEXT.

ED ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

I'M JOINED ON BY THIS WEEK'S PANELISTS, ANIRBAN ACHARYA FROM LEMOYNE COLLEGE, MICHAEL TILLOTSON FROM SUNY CORTLAND, AND CHAD SPARBER FROM COLGATE UNIVERSITY.

THE WAR IN THE MIDEAST IS REIGNITING FREEDOM OF SPEECH BATTLES ON AMERICAN CAMPUSES.

STUDENT GROUPS, INCLUDING AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY, DEMONSTRATED IN SUPPORT OF PALESTINIANS.

SOME WROTE A LETTER BLAMING THE WHAT HAMAS ATTACK ENTIRELY ON ISRAELI POLICIES.

THE BACKLASH WAS SWIFT AS MAJOR DONORS PULLED SUPPORT.

CRITICS EQUATED WHAT THEY DEEMED TEPID RESPONSES BY SCHOOLS AFTER THE ATTACK TO ANTI-SEMITISM.. ANIRBAN, WHAT ARE THE OBLIGATIONS OF UNIVERSITIES IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS?

DO THEY HAVE TO COME OUT AND MAKE STATEMENTS AND SUPPORT ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER?

>> IF THEY DON'T MAKE A STATEMENT, THEY WILL GET PRESSURE FROM DIFFERENT GROUPS AND IF THEY MAKE A STATEMENT, THEY HAVE TO BE CAREFUL HOW THEY ARE MAKING STATEMENTS TO NOT ALIENATE THE DONORS BECAUSE THEY ARE DEPENDENT ON DONOR MONEY.

I WOULD BE SPECIFIC ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN COMEDY LETTER IN HARVARD.D.TEE I READ THE LETTER AND AGAIN JULIE BUTLER WROTE AN EXCELLENT PIECE IN LONDON.

I HOPE OUR LEADERS WILL-- OUR READERS WILL GO THROUGH.

THE PROBLEM IS, THEY SAY THE REGIME IS THE ONLY ONE TO BLAME FOR THE DEADLY ATTACKS BY HAMAS IN ISRAEL.

YOU CANNOT APPORTION BLAME IN THAT WAY.

THAT IS UNCOUTH.

THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN EXONERATE HAMAS, NOTHING AT ALL.

HOWEVER, FOLLOWING ANTONIO GUTIERREZ AND JULIE BUTLER AND OTHER SCHOLARS THAT ARE COMING FORWARD AND SAYING YES, OF COURSE THAT IS TRUE.

THERE IS NO ALIBI FOR HAMAS.

IT HAS TO BE SQUARELY CONDEMNED.

THERE IS NO WAY OUT OF IT.

HOWEVER CAN WE TALK ABOUT OCCUPATION AND HAVE DEBATES ABOUT WHETHER ISRAEL HAS BEEN CALLED AN APARTHEID REGIME BY MANY COUNTRIES AND MANY SCHOLARS AND MANY ISRAELIS THEMSELVES.

AND WHY ARE THEIR VOICES STIFLED.HY IF WE CAN'T EVEN TALK, IF WEE CAN'T EVEN DEBATE, THEN THAT IS A PROBLEM.

CONDEMNATION, ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

BUT I DON'T THINK IT CAN JUST END IN CONDEMNATION.

WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO KNOWLEDGE, TO UNDERSTAND YOU KNOW, THE REGION AND ALSO HIGHLIGHT MASSIVE LEVELS OF PALESTINIAN AND ISRAELI SOLIDARITY THAT EXISTED.

SO I WOULD SAY WHAT THAT LETTER WAS EXTREMELY TONE DEAF AND CRUEL, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE ATTACKS.

BUT I ALSO THINK WE SHOULD HAVE DEBATES.

WE SHOULD HAVE OPEN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THESE THINGS.

>> LET ME PICK UP ON A COUPLE OF YOUR THEMES THERE.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE STUDENT PROTESTS, I CAN BE PRETTYHE FORGIVING.

THEY'RE STUDENTS BY NATURE, YOUNG, NAIVE, SUSCEPTIBLE TO GROUP THINK AND IT'S OUR JOBS AS PROFESSORS TO MAKE THEM NOT THAT.

AND SO THAT'S WHY I HOLD HARVARD AND SOME OF ITS SIMILAR INSTITUTIONS KIND OF ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR FAILURES IN THAT AREA.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, LOCALLY, WE HAD A CORNELL HISTORY PROFESSOR WHO CALLED HAMAS' ATTACKS EXHILARATING AND ENERGIZING.

NOW I THINK THAT SENTIMENT IS REPREHENSIBLE, BUT FROM AN ACADEMIC POINT OF VIEW, I'M MORE CONCERNED PERHAPS THAT IT REVEALS THAT HE IS SORT OF BAD AT HIS JOB; THAT IT FAILS TOERT RECOGNIZE HOW COMPLICATED THE REALITY IN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE ARE.

BUT NUANCE AND MORAL CERTITUDE, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T GET ALONG.

AND SO THE PROBLEM, THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM THAT I HAVE IS THAT UNIVERSITIES HAVE INSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURES THAT REWARD CAREERS AND DEPARTMENTS FOR OUTRAGE OVER ANALYSIS.

AND FOR ADVOCACY AS A FORM OF INQUIRY.

AND AS LONG AS THAT'S TRUE, WE SHOULD EXPECT OUR STUDENTS TO FAIL TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITY OF THEIR WORLD.

AND SO IT'S REALLY THOSE INCENTIVE STRUCTURES THAT I THINK HAVE TO CHANGE.

>> MICHAEL, DOES THE LEFT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SORT OF, MAYBE A PHILOSOPHICAL PROBLEM?

IN SOME CASES IS THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT, IN THEIR SUPPORT OF PALESTINIANS, MAYBE SLIDING OVER INTO ANTI-SEMITISM?

>> THERE ARE SOME FROM THE LEFT WHO ALSO SUPPORT ISRAEL BUT I WOULD SAY WHEN I WAS AN UNDERGRADUATE AT INDIANA UNIVERSITY IN BLOOMINGTON INDIANA I HAD A JEWISH ROOMMATE THAT I WOULD HAVE LONG TALKS WITH ABOUT THEHE ISRAEL-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT AND HE AND HIS JEWISH FRATERNITY BROTHERS SAMMYS AS THEY WERE CALLED BACK THEN WOULD HELP ME TO UNDERSTAND WHY THE CONFLICTS IS SO IMPORTANT TO SO MANY PEOPLE.

CURRENTLY I HAVE FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE.

WHAT UNIVERSITIES ARE SAYING AND NOT SAYING.

WHAT PRIVATE COMPANIES ARE DOING AND NOT DOING.

SO FOR ME, I WILL ALLOW THOSE WHO ARE DEEPLY IMPACTED TO SPEAF AND WRITE IN FULL MEASURE IN PUBLIC WAYS THAT THEY SEE FIT AND DEEM APPROPRIATE.WO GUT I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK TO WHAT CHAD SAID ABOUT STUDENTS ARE NAIVE AND THAT WE ARE SLIGHTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR REFORMING THEIR CHARACTER.

I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TELL ME WAYS THAT CAN BE DONE AND WHY YOU THINK STUDENTS ARE NAIVE?

>> I THINK IT'S JUST AN ARTIFACT OF, YOU KNOW, BEING YOUNG AND INEXPERIENCED WITH THE WORLD AND LIKE HAVING, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU ARE 18 YEARS OLD, HAVING LESS THAN A COMPLETE EDUCATION WHICH, UNDERSTANDABLY, DEFINITIONALLY IT IS TRUE.LY AND SO BRINGING TO THE TABLE CONVERSATIONS THAT TALK ABOUT, IN MY DISCIPLINE IT'S STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES, COSTS AND BENEFITS, POLITICAL SCIENCE, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW EVERY POLITICAL POLICY OR EVERY POLITICAL CANDIDATE IS INHERENTLY A COMPROMISE.

AND SO THESE KINDS OF DISCUSSIONS, AS OPPOSED TO UNNUANCED-- THERE IS A VILLAIN AND A HERO, THOSE KINDS OF DISCUSSIONS.

>> AND ALSO THE MAIN PROBLEM RATHER THAN A NUANCED CRITICAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE REGION, THT HISTORY OF THE REGION.

I MUST ALSO SAY THIS, RIGHT, CRITICIZING A STATE'S POLICYEG CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD AS ANTI-SEMITIC.

IF TOMORROW YOU CRITICIZE THE GOVERNMENT POLICY AND I'M OF INDIAN ORIGIN, I CANNOT REALLY SAY THAT YOUAN ARE ANTI-INDIAN.

THAT BE WOULD BE OBSCENE AND NOT FAIR TO YOU.

WE NEED TO SEPARATE THE STATE FROM POLICY.

WE NEED TO SEPARATE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE FROM HAMAS AS A FASCIST ORGANIZATION.

AND WE SHOULD SEPARATE THE ISRAELI RIGHT WING GOVERNMENT FROM ANY OTHER ISRAELI SPEAKING IN FAVOR OF PALESTINIANS AND IN SOLIDARITY, AND SO WE ARE STIFLING THOSE VOICES RIGHT NOW.

>> RIGHT NOW IN GAZA THERE IS A HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE UNFOLDING.

PEOPLE ARE PROTESTING AGAINST THAT.

BUT WE'VE SEEN, IN OTHER CASESES IN THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE WE HAVE SEEN HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHES UNFOLDING IN SYRIA, LET'S SAY, AT THE HANDS OF THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT OR IN SUDAN, NORTHERN SUDAN WAS BASICALLY A MUSLIM AREA.

WE'VE SEEN IT IN YEMEN RIGHT NOW YOU ARE SEEING THAT.

SO WHY ARE WE NOT SEEING THESE BIG STUDENT PROTESTS OVER THAT?

>> BECAUSE THIS IS A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE ISSUE HAS BEEN A LONG STANDING ISSUE AND A LOT OF BAD BLOOD ON BOTH SIDES AND THE LACK OF BEING ABLE TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER.

AND I DO THINK THAT IS WHY THE STUDENT GOVERNMENTS-- BUT I ALSO THINK THERE HAS BEEN STUDENTS HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE SAUDI ARABIAN WAR IN YEMEN AND SO FORTH BUT THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE ANIMATES... >> THEY MAY BE TALKING ABOUT IT BUT THEY'RE NOT OUT IN THE STREETS PROTESTING.

>> THAT IS RIGHT.HE >> MICHAEL.

>> I THINK WE COULD HAVE MORE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE DEEPER AGGRESSIVE RIGHT WING ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THAT HAS PUSHED OCCUPATION TO LEVELS THAT NOT ANYONE COULD SUSTAIN.

T I THINK THERE SHOULD BE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE WHEREWITH ALL OF THE NEW GOVERNMENT THERE THAT HAS PUSHED OCCUPATION TO WAYS THAT I DON'TH THINK ANY HUMAN BEING COULD WITHSTAND OVER TIME.

SO, YOU KNOW, AS TOUCHY AS THE SUBJECT MAY BE, I THINK THE CONVERSATIONS WOULD BE A LOT MORE BROADER MOVING AWAY FROM JUST EMOTIONAL RESPONSES.

>> AND I THINK THAT SPEAKS TO THE INTERESTING COMPLICATIONS OF THIS.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE RIGHT WING GOVERNMENT AND PEOPLE THROW AROUND WORDS LIKE GENOCIDE OR OCCUPATION OR WHAT HAVE YOU, AND IF YOU ARE IN AN INSTITUTION WHERE THE STRUCTURES ARE DEVOTED TO DIVERSITY EQUITY, INCLUSIONEV KIND OF RHETORIC, THEN IT BECOMES LIKE OH WELL THEN ISRAEL, THEY'RE THE OPPRESSORS.

THEY'VE GOT THE MONEY AND THE MILITARY AND ALL THIS OTHER KIND OF STUFF.

AND ALL THE NUANCE, ALL THE COMPLICATIONS OF THAT AREA GO OUT THE WINDOW.

AND SO THEN YOU GET STUDENT PROTESTS OR PROFESSORS CALLING IT EXHILARATING.

AND IT'S LIKE NO, NO, NO, NO, THERE IS SO MUCH MORE TO THISIN STORY THAN THAT SIMPLE REDUCTION.

>> QUICKLY...HA >> THERE IS A TINY NEW ELEMENT OF THIS NEW RURAL SUPPORT OF ISRAEL.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS TO THIS DEGREE, THE RURAL SUPPORT.

PROBABLY RESPONSE TO RIGHT WING TELEVISION, ISRAELIS GOOD, PALESTINIANS BAD.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS RURAL SUPPORT OF ISRAEL FULL STOP >> A LITTLE HERE, A LITTLE HERE AND PRETTY SOON IT ADDS UP TO REAL MONEY.

THE FEDERAL DEFICIT IN THE CURRENT YEAR HAS DOUBLED.

THE GOVERNMENT SPENT 2 TRILLION DOLLARS MORE THAN WE TOOK IN.

LAST YEAR.

AMERICA'S OVERALL DEBT IS NOW MORE THAN $33 TRILLION DOLLARS.

THE INTEREST ON THE DEBT FOR THIS YEAR ALONE IS $659 BILLION3 IT SEEMS LIKE A DOWNWARD SPIRAL IN WHICH WE HAVE TO BORROW MONEY TO PAY THE INTEREST.

NOW, CHAD IS THIS EVEN A PROBLEM.

I JUST SET IT UP LIKE IT IS A BIG PROBLEM.

YOU ARE THE ECONOMIST.

TELL ME IF I'M NUTS.

>> YOU ARE NOT NUTS.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS ALL THE TIME.

I MEAN LOOK, THE FIGURES VARY DEPENDENT ON YOUR SOURCE.

THE DEBT IS 140% OF G.D.P., THE FOURTH HIGHEST.

WE PAY TWICE AS MUCH IN INTEREST PAYMENTS NOW THAN WE DID TWO YEARS AGO AND WE SPEND MORE ON INTEREST THAN WE DO ON NATIONAL SECURITY NOW.

CHINA OWNS ABOUT 15% OF OUR DEBT IF YOU LOOK AT A WORLD WHERE CHINA TRIES TO INVADE TAIWAN AND WE WANT TO PROTECT TAIWAN, WHO IS GOING TO LEND US THE MONEY?

IT WON'T BE CHINA.

THE GOVERNMENT ESTIMATES THAT SOCIAL SECURITY WILL BECOME INSOLVENT BY 2033.

GOOD LUCK GETTING YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY CHECKS.

AT LEAST ONE OF THOSE BULLETS SHOULD TROUBLE YOU.

ALL OF THEM TROUBLE ME.

SO, YEAH, I MEAN I'M ALARMED.

>> SO WHY DO WE HAVE THIS PROBLEM NOW?

>> JUST THE NUMBERS, RIGHT.

THE PUBLIC DEBT HAS INCREASED BY 120% FROM 2013.

STANDING AT $26.3 TRILLION NOW AND THE INTRAGOVERNMENTAL HOLDING, CAN THAT'S ANOTHER KIND OFOV DEBT THAT'S PART WHAT HAVEE CALLE THE DEBT-- THAT HAS ALSO INCREASED BY 44%.

WHY THIS HAPPENED, I THINK THERE ARE THREE MAIN THINGS.

AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ WAR, THAT ADDED A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF SPENDING FOR U.S. THEN WE HAD THE GREAT RECESSION, WHICH AGAIN CREATED A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF INCREASE AND YOU CAN SEE THAT.

I WENT TO THE TREASURY.GOV TO LOOK AT THE GRAPH AND THEN WE HAD THE PANDEMIC AND THEN THE REACH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SANDWICHED BETWEEN THEM IS THE REACH THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PASSED.

ADDING ALL THAT UP, WE HAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF DEBT.

ONE SHOULD SAY THAT THOUGH, THE MILITARY SPENDING-- WE SPEND MORE MILITARY IN SPENDING THAN THE NEXT SIX COUNTRIES PUT TOGETHER.G- BUT EVEN PUTTING THAT ASIDE, I DO FEEL THERE IS A GOOD BOOK BY MATTHEW DESMOND CALLED POVERTY IN AMERICA WHERE HE SHOWS THAT THE RICHEST 20% GETS $36,000 FROM THE GOVERNMENT THROUGH DIFFERENT TAX CUTS.

THAT IS ABOUT $16,000 MORE THAN THE BOTTOM 20% GET, RIGHT?

SO THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT WAYS BY WHICH YOU CAN REDUCE THE BUDGET BUT I AGREE WITH CHAD, ESPECIALLY THE SOCIAL SECURITY, THE JOKE IS THAT NOW YOU CAN WRITE A THANK YOU NOTE TO THE TWO PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO PAY YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY.

IT'S ALARMING.

>> THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO GET AT.

YOU ARE AS ALARMED-- YOU ARE AS ALARMED ABOUT THIS FROM THE LEFT AS CHAD IS FROM THE RIGHT.

>> WELL, NO, I'M ALARMED FROM THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

HE IS ONLY BLAMING THE RIGHT.

I'M BLAMING BOTH.

>> MICHAEL, IS THERE A SOLUTION?

IS THERE A WAY TO CHIP AWAY AT THIS?

I MEAN WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO BECAUSE WE CAN'T KEEP FORKING IT OVER.

>> I'M CURIOUS ABOUT ONE THING, TO BUILD ON THE POINTS.

ACCORDING TO THE DATA FROM THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF NEW YORK, THE NATIONAL DEBT HAD 45TH ARE THE'S REIGN.

NEW YORK, THE NATIONAL DEBT HAD RISEN $8 TRILLION DURING THE 45TH ARE THE'S REIGN.

NEARLY TWICE AS MUCH AS EVERY AMERICAN OWES ON DEBT EXCEPT COMBINED.

IT IS ABOUT $24,000 IN NEW FEDERAL DEBT FOR EVERY PERSON IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT SAID, FROM A PHILOSOPHY OF POLITICAL PRACTICE, THIS IS WHAT HAS INTERESTED ME FOR QUITE SOMETIME IS THAT GOING BACK TO THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION, IS HOW THE DEFICIT AND SPENDING IS ONLY A MATTER OF CONSEQUENCE IT APPEARS WHEN THERE IS A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT IN OFFICE.

GOING BACK TO THE BILL CLINTON PRESIDENT, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS GENERALLY LEAVE A SURPLUS AND REPUBLICANS GENERALLY DRAIN THAT SURPLUS.

BUT ALL IS QUIET ON THE RIGHT WHEN THIS HAPPENS SO IT MAKES ME QUESTION THE CURRENT NOISE ON THE ISSUE IS JUST POLITICS TALKING POINTS BEFORE THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

FOR ME, IT'S THE SAME OLD RINSET AND REPEAT BLAME THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT PIECE.

>> YOU FALLEN TO THE TRAP OF POINTING TO THE OTHER SIDE AND THAT'S NOT GOING TO GET US OUT OF THE MESS.

THE QUESTION OF WHY HAS THE DEBT RISEN, YOU ARE PRETTY MUCH RIGHT.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE DEBT G.D.P.

RATIO OVER TIME, SPIKED HUGELY IN THE GREAT RECESSION AND AGAIN THIS COVID AND IT NEVER GOES DOWN.

THAT'S ONE LOOK AT IT.

RIGHT NOW WHAT WE SEE IS A LOTT OF REVENUE SHORTFALLS, PART OF IT OF COURSE IS THE TRUMP TAX CUTS.

BUT PART OF IT IS THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT INVOLVES A LOT OF SUBSIDIES THAT ARE GOING TO COST THREE TIMES MORE THAN ORIGINALLY PROJECTED AND THOSE SUBSIDIES ARE GOING TO WEALTHY PEOPLE THAT WOULD HAVE BOUGHT GREEN ENERGY ANYWAY.

HOW DO YOU SOLVE IT IS THE OTHER QUESTION.

NOW I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT PEOPLE GO TO THE COMMITTEE FOR RESPONSIBLE FEDERAL BUDGETS WEBSITE.

IT'S A BIPARTISAN... >> A GREAT WEBSITE.

>> THEY HAVE A LITTLE INTERACTIVE TOOL THERE LIKE, CAN YOU GET THE DEBT DOWN TO A REASONABLE LEVEL?

I FAILED THE FIRST TIME I DID IT AND I WAS WILLING TO DO THINGS LIKE INSTITUTE A CARBON TAX, TO MAKE SOCIAL SECURITY MEANS T TESTED SO THAT I WOULD NEVER, EVER ACTUALLY HAVE A CHANCE OF RECEIVING IT.

TO ACTUALLY RAISE THE SOCIAL SECURITY TAX THRESHOLD SO RICH PEOPLE MAY MORE OF IT.

AND SO I WAS WILLING TO DO SOME INCREASES IN TAXES AND CUTS AND WHATEVER.

I COULDN'T DO IT.

>> ALL THESE CHANGES DON'T GET US CLOSE.

>> IT'S SO HARD.

>> AND NOW THERE IS THIS THING, I DON'T BELIEVE IN IT, BUT MODERN MONETARY APPROACH.

LONG STORY SHORT, THE UNITED STATES IS GOOD FOR BUSINESS.TE IT IS A CONFIDENT, IT IS A STABLE, IT IS A CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY AND IT IS POWERFUL AND PEOPLE BELIEVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND BELIEVE IN THE RULE OF LAW AND PROPERTY IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO THEY'RE WILLING TO INVEST IN THE UNITED STATES.

AS LONG AS THAT CONFIDENCE IS THERE, DEBT IS NOT A PROBLEM.

AND THE ANALOGY, HOWEVER... >> YOU ARE SAYING YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT?

>> I DO...

I PARTIALLY THINK IT'S PROBLEMS WITH THAT.

BUT YOU KNOW, JAPAN HAS 200% DEBT, AUSTRALIA HAS 200% DEBT AND... >> CHAD SAID WE FALL INTO THE TRAP OF BLAMING THE OTHER SIDE.

THERE IS A REALITY TEST HERE AND I POSE THE QUESTION, WHY IS IT ONLY A QUESTION FROM THE RIGHT WHEN THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT IS IN OFFICE.

WHEN WE GIVE AWAY BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF TAX CUTS FROM THE RIGHT.

THAT'S MY QUESTION TO YOU.

>> SO MY RESPONSE IS I AM MAD AT THE RIGHT FOR THE INCREASE IN DEBT.

AND YOU HAVE CANDIDATES RIGHT NOW LIKE NIKKI HALEY, WHO IS VERY UP FRONT THAT WE HAVE FAILED ON THIS ISSUE.NT >> SO SHE HAS COME UP WITH A COUPLE POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS AND THEY INCLUDE THINGS LIKE RAISING SOCIAL SECURITY...

THIS WAS A BUSY WEEK IN THE LEGAL TRIBULATIONS AND TRIALS OF DONALD TRUMP.

HIS FORMER LAWYER AND "FIXER" TESTIFIED IN THE NEW YORK FRAUD CASE THAT HE "REVERSED-ENGINEERED" THE VALUES OF TRUMP PROPERTIES TO GET A NUMBER THE BOSS WANTED.

HE ALSO TESTIFIED TRUMP NEVER EXPLICITLY TOLD HIM TO DO SO.

IN THE GEORGIA ELECTION CASE, THREE OF TRUMP'S LAWYERS HAVE NOW PLEADED GUILTY AND WILL TESTIFY.

AND IT'S BEEN REPORTED HIS CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS WAS GRANTED IMMUNITY AND TESTIFIED TO A GRAND JURY.

LOTS OF PEOPLE THINK THE WALLS ARE CLOSING IN, BUT MAYBE NOT SO FAST.. MICHAEL, IN THE NEW YORK CASE, DOES THE PUNISHMENT OF LOSING HIS BUSINESS LICENSES FIT THE CRIME AT WHICH NO ONE LOST ANY MONEY.

>> I GUESS WE HAVE TO TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT TURNS OUT.

TO YOUR POINT THAT PEOPLE ARE SINGING LIKE BIRDS.HA AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, WHEN YOU RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND UNDER OATH OR SIT IN PRIVATE IN A DARK ROOM WITH PROSECUTORS DESCRIBING YOUR FATE, SOMETIMES A NEW PSYCHOLOGY STARTS TO EMERGE AND ALL THE EMOTION, FEELING, OPINION,N, HYPOTHETICAL, CONJECTURE AND BRAVADO DISAPPEAR.

SO I'M NOT SURE WHY ANYONE IS SURPRISED AT ALL THESE GUILTY PLEAS BECAUSE SELF PRESERVATION IS ONE OF THE BASIC LAWS OF HUMAN NATURE.

WHEN PEOPLE GET A SENSE THEN WORLD IS IN JEOPARDY, THEIR INTEREST IS FOR THEMSELVES.

AT THE SAME TIME, LET'S NOT FORGET THE GEORGIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY HAS DONE A MAGISTERIAL JOB OF ROUNDING UP PEOPLE WHO ADD TO THE CORPUS OF INFORMATION AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT BECAUSE LET'S FACE IT.

WHETHER THAT BIRD STARTS TO SING, THEY ALL START TO HEAR THR MELODY OF JAIL TIME, RIGHT, BUT WHAT IS INTERESTING HERE FOR ME IS THIS: THERE ARE PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHO THOUGHT THAT THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE OF SOME SORT OF HERCULEAN FEALTY TO THEE FORMER PRESIDENT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY AS MENTIONED, SELF PRESERVATION IS ONE OF THE BASIC LAWS OF NATURE, EVEN WHEN IT TAKES A WHILE TO HAPPEN, THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING.

>> SO ONE-- THAT WAS QUITE A SUMMARY, REALLY.

ONE OF THE FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTORS THINK THAT FANNY WILLIS HAS A WEAK CASE AND THAT'S WHY NONE OF THE LAWYERS ARE PLEADING GUILTY TO THE ACTUAL RACKETEERING CHARGES.

I KNOW IT'S FROM THE NATIONAL REVIEW AND THAT'S YOUR FAVORITE PUBLICATION, CHAD.

>> MY FAVORITE PUBLICATION IS THE ECONOMIST AND YOU KNOW IT.

LET'S SEE.

>> SECOND FAVORITE.

>> ON THE FIRST SEGMENT I WAS SAYING ACADEMICS SHOULD NOT OPINE ON ISSUES IN WHICH THEY DON'T HAVE AN EXPERTISE.

SO WHERE DO I WANT TO... LOOK.

WHEN I FOLLOW THIS GEORGIA CASE, LIKE I'M NOT SUPER INTERESTED AND I FEEL LIKE THE REACTIONS PEOPLE ARE GETTING FROM THE DEVELOPMENT SO FAR ARE REALLY MOTIVATED BY THEIR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS ABOUT TRUMP, RIGHT?

SO WHETHER SHE HAS DONE A WHAT WAS THE-- >> MAGISTERIAL.

LOOK IT UP.

>> IT SOUNDS GLOWING.

OR IF YOU LIKE THE NATIONAL REVIEW THAT SAYS THERE IS NO CASE THERE, IT CORRELATES SO MUCH WITH SOMEBODY'S AGAIN, VIEWS ON TRUMP.

THERE IS THE CHRIS CHRISTIE QUOTE I TURN TO, YOU DON'T GIVE A NO JAIL PLEA UNLESS THE PERSON HAS SOMETHING VERY GOOD TO SAY AGAINST THE OTHERS.UR SO THAT MAKES ME THINK THERE IS A CASE.

>> ANIRBAN, QUICKLY, YOU HAVE A QUICK OPINION ON THIS?

>> I THINK HE WILL LOSE BIGLY.

[LAUGHTER] THINGS ARE CLOSING IN AROUND HIM.

IF THERE WAS NOTHING IN GEORGIA, NO CASE, RIGHT, THEN WHY WOULD PEOPLE, HIS OWN PEOPLE KIND OF TURN AGAINST HIM, RIGHT?

AND NOW BEING YOU KNOW, STATE WITNESSES, SO THINGS ARE CLOSING... >> AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO DISLIKE TRUMP TO UNDERSTAND THE LAW, EITHER.

>> WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO-- WE WILL CHECK IN ON THIS BECAUSE THESE TRIALS ARE GOING TO GO ON AND ON FOR SOMETIME.

PERIODICALLY WE'LL CHECK IN.

WE WANTED TO GO TO THERE-- As AD Fs.

ANIRBAN, WE'LL START WITH YOUR F. >> MY F WAS SUPPOSED TO GO TO THE CORNELL PROFESSOR BUT THEN A FORGOT.

BUT IT GOES TO MIKE JOHNSON'S DELUSION AND HIS EFFORTS TO AVERT THE 2020 ELECTION RESULTS.

ALSO TO HIS VERBAL CRUELTY TOWARDS GAY PEOPLE AND HIS EFFORTS TO CRIMINALIZE HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONS.

>> MIKE JOHNSON, YOU DIDN'T SAY BUT MIKE JOHNSON, THE NEW SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

>> MICHAEL, YOUR F. >> MY F GOES TO FLORIDA CONGRESSMAN MATT GAETZS WHO CONTINUES TO CONGRATULATE HIMSELF FOR PARALYZING CONGRESS AND PARALYZING AMERICA FOR THREE WEEKS.

>> AND F, CHAD?

>> MY F GOES TO THE NEWS THATY CAZ TORTILLA COMPANY WILL CLOSE.

EVERY TRANSPLANT TO CENTRAL EVERY WESTED COAST SOUTHWEST AND TRANSPLANT TO NEW YORK RECOGNIZES THEM AS THE BEST LOCAL OPTION AND ARE SAD TO SEE THEM GO.

TO THE PROPRIETORS, THANK YOU FOR MAKING A GREAT PRODUCT.

I WISH YOU THE BEST ON YOUR NEXT ENDEAVORS AND I SHOULD PRAISE LOCAL BUSINESSES BEFORE THEY CLOSE.

>> LET'S GO TO THE As.

ANIRBAN.

>> MY A GOES TO AN ISRAELI PEACE ACTIVIST AND D.J.

AND WAS KILLED BY HAMAS MILITANTS ON OCTOBER 7 AND HIS BROTHER, WHO CARRYING ON HIS SIBLING'S LEGACY IS DEMANDING THE DEATH OF THEIR SIBLING NOT BE USED AS A PRETEXT FOR MORE BLOODSHED.

HE SAID THE CALL TO MY GOVERNMENT IS TO STOP KILLING PEOPLE.

>> MICHAEL, YOUR A.

>> TO Dr. LEWIS ROSENGARDEN, DIRECTOR OF THE OPPORTUNITY PROGRAM AT SUNY CORTLAND.

HE CONTINUES TO BE A FORCE FOR UNDER REPRESENTED STUDENTS AND THEIR FUTURES.

I SALUTE YOU.

>> AND CHAD, YOUR A.

>> I LOVE THIS ONE.

MY A GOES TO AN ARIZONA DAD IRA LATHAM WHO ATTENDED A SCHOOL BOARD MEETING TO ARGUE AS A PARENT, I EXPECT THE DISTRICT TO ENFORCE DRESS CODE POLICIES THAT LIMIT NEEDLESS DISTRACTIONS IN CLASS BECAUSE I HAVE NO OTHER WAY TO DESCRIBE MY CONCERN ABOUO THIS DISTRICT'S POLICY, I'LL DO AN OBJECT LESSON.

HE THEN STRIPPED DOWN TO A CROP TOP AND DAISY DUKES TO ILLUSTRATE THE ATTIRE THE SCHOOL BOARD TEAMED APPROPRIATE TO PROGRESSIVE TYPES TO LIKE TO CLAIM THAT BODIES ARE NOT A DISTRACTION, HE WOULD LIKE TO SAY, HOLD MY BEER.

>> ANOTHER STUNT.

>> OKAY.

I WANT TO PICK UP, MICHAEL, YOU GAVE YOUR F TO MATT GAETZ.

FOR HOLDING THINGS UP IN CONGRESS.

AND, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO WONDERY WHETHER HE PULLED A PRETTY STRATEGIC MOVE BECAUSE AT THE P END OF THE DAY, THE NEW SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE IS SOMEONE THAT HE WOULD BE VERY HAPPY WITH.

AS HE CALLED HIM-- HE WENT ON THE SHOW AND CALLED HIM MAGA MIKE JOHNSON.

>> I HAVE YET TO SEE ONE USEFUL BILL THAT MATT GAETZ HAS BROUGHT TO FORE.AV OR ONE CLEAR THOUGHT.

I THINK HE IS FULL OF EMOTION AND MEANNESS AND HE HAS NO USEFUL PURPOSE FOR AMERICAN CONGRESS.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.

FOR COMMENTS YOU CAN WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN AND IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO WATCH THE SHOW AGAIN, YOU CAN DO SO ONLINE AT WCNY.ORG.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY.

AND FOR ALL OF US AT "IVORY TOWER," HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.

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