>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I M GENE GRANT.

WELL.

I WON T BE ANNOUNCING MYSELF AS HOST, BECAUSE AS THEY SAY, ALL GOOD THINGS MUST COME TO AN END.

AND MORE ACCURATELY, EVEN FANTASTIC THINGS MUST COME TO AN END.

AND SO IT IS FOR ME AS YOUR HOST OF THE LINE HERE ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

TONIGHT WE WRAP NEARLY TWENTY YEARS IN THIS SEAT WEEKLY WITH A SPECIAL REMEMBRANCE WITH FRIENDS, COLLEAGUES, AND YOU.

WE LL HAVE TWO ROUND TABLE DISCUSSIONS TO TALK ABOUT JOURNALISM, THEN AND NOW, AND WHAT HAS OR HASN T CHANGED SINCE THEN.

WE LL ALSO TAKE A LOOK BACK AT SOME SPECIAL PROGRAMMING WE VE BROUGHT YOUR WAY, SOME OF THE VERY SPECIAL MOMENTS I VE BEEN ABLE TO ENJOY, AND A FINAL WORD FROM ME TO FINISH.

BUT EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE HAS TO START SOMEWHERE.

LONG-TIME VIEWERS, YOU MAY RECALL THE NAME OF DAVID ALIRE GARCIA, A WONDERFUL JOURNALIST DOING GREAT THINGS RIGHT NOW FOR REUTERS NEWS SERVICE.

HERE S DAVID AND I BACK IN 2008 OPENING THE BRAND SPANKING NEW, NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Gene: ELECTION 2008 ENDS IN A LANDSLIDE.

>> David: FROM BARACK OBAMA'S GROUNDBREAKING PRESIDENTIAL WIN TO A DEMOCRATIC SWEEP IN NEW MEXICO'S CONGRESSIONAL RACES, THERE'S PLENTY TO TALK ABOUT.

>> Gene: YES, THERE IS.

THE BEST ANALYSIS AND INSIGHT ON THE ELECTION OUTCOMES AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR NEW MEXICO HEADING FORWARD IN A SHOW THAT'S INVOLVED, INFORMED, IN-DEPTH.

IT'S NEW MEXICO In FOCUS.

>> Gene: HIGHLANDS UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT MANNY ARAGON MAY BE BACK TO PRACTICING LAW EVERY DAY.

THE MAYOR WANTS YOUR KIDS TO BE FLIPPING PAGES AFTER SCHOOL INSTEAD OF JUMPING ROPE.

AND THE WILSON-MADRID RACE JUST GOT A LITTLE WARMER.

HIGHER EDUCATION, AFTER-SCHOOL PROGRAMS AND POLITICS TONIGHT ON THE LINE.

>> Gene: I'M GENE GRANT, YOUR HOST FOR THE LINE.

>> Gene: HEY, EVERYTHING HAS TO START SOMEWHERE, AND I WANT TO THANK DAVID ALIRE GARCIA FOR ALL HIS EFFORTS EARLY, EARLY, EARLY ON IN THE SHOW.

THAT WAS THE NUMBER ONE.

THAT WAS THE FIRST SHOW.

IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO.

NOW, ONE OF THE BEST PARTS OF SITTING AT THIS TABLE FOR NEARLY TWO DECADES HAS BEEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET AND SPEAK WITH SO MANY INTERESTING AND KNOWLEDGABLE PEOPLE ON THE LINE.

AND THIS WEEK, WE HAVE A REALLY SPECIAL GROUP.

I'M HAPPY TO BE JOINED BY THREE PEOPLE WHO PLAYED A BIG ROLE ON THE LINE OPINION PANEL OVER THE YEARS.

WE START WITH CATHY McGILL, SOMEONE I'VE KNOWN FOR YEARS, WHO'S BECOME A KEY CONTRIBUTOR ON THE PROGRAM AND ALWAYS A FRIEND.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, CATHY.

NEXT, ACROSS THE TABLE, KKOB RADIO HOST T.J. TROUT, WHO QUICKLY BECAME ONE OF OUR GO-TOs, AND WE'VE LOVED HAVING HIM ON EVERY SINCE.

AND BACK ACROSS THE TABLE, I'M SO PLEASED TO WELCOME KATHY WIMMER.

SHE HELPED BUILD THE SHOW!

YOU DON'T KNOW HER BY FACE, BUT SHE WAS THE SHOW, MAKING SURE WE HAD THE RIGHT GROUP TO DISSECT THE ISSUES OF THE WEEK, AND SHE'S HERE AT THE TABLE TO BE WITH US FOR A GOOD-BYE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE TODAY.

NOW, I WANTED YOU ALL TO TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP OUR PRODUCERS FOUND.

TO OUR KNOWLEDGE, MY FIRST APPEARANCE ON NEW MEXICO PBS AND NEW MEXICO In FOCUS, SPEAKING WITH THE SHOW'S THEN HOST KATE NELSON.

>> Kate: GENE GRANT IS A FREELANCE JOURNALIST AND OCCASIONAL BLOGGER.

GENE, TELL ME, DO YOU THINK -- DOES THE PUBLIC ANYMORE WANT JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY, OR ARE THEY JUST LOOKING FOR NEWS THAT CATERS TO THEIR OWN POINT OF VIEW?

>> Gene: WOW, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK THE WORD, ITSELF, JOURNALISTIC, OR THE TERM ITSELF, JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY, IS JUST BEING RESHAPED SO QUICKLY.

WHAT IS JOURNALISM THAT HAS INTEGRITY ANYMORE IN A BLOG UNIVERSE?

THAT'S THE FIRST PROBLEM.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY AS A READER OR AS A VIEWER TO KIND OF HAVE A PRISM TO VIEW WHAT'S GOOD JOURNALISM TO LOOK THROUGH, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW IT IF YOU SAW IT?

SO WHO CARES.

SO GET IT ANYWHERE, AND IT JUST DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.

AND IT CIRCLES BACK TO, IF IT FITS MY SENSIBILITIES AND WHAT I WANT TO READ AND THE CONCLUSIONS I'VE ALREADY BROUGHT TO THE TABLE, THEN IT'S GOOD JOURNALISM.

BUT IF IT DOESN'T AND IT DOESN'T CHALLENGE YOU IN THE RIGHT WAY TO BRING YOU TO ANOTHER PLACE, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE INCLINED TO SEE THAT AS BAD JOURNALISM.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE GET STUCK RIGHT NOW OUT THERE WITH HOW THE PEOPLE CONSIDER IT.

>> Kate: WHY ARE FEWER PEOPLE READING NEWSPAPERS?

>> Gene: OH, BOY.

YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY FUNNY, I THINK IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS YOU HAVE TO SORT OF HAVE GROWN UP AND MODELED FOR YOU AT YOUR KITCHEN TABLE AS YOU'RE GROWING UP.

AND I THINK AS LESS PEOPLE DO THAT AS TIME GOES BY, THAT HABIT OF THE DAILY PAPER, THE THING THAT WE ALL GREW UP WITH -- YOU KNOW, MY GROWING UP INCLUDED READING BOSTON GLOBE EVERY DAY AT ABOUT AGE 11 OR 12, WHICH IS PRETTY WEIRD, BUT THAT'S WHAT WAS MODELED FOR ME.

AND I THINK A LOT OF US JUST DON'T HAVE THAT ANYMORE.

WE DON'T SEE THAT.

AND SINCE WE CAN JUST GET IT ON THE FLY WHEN WE NEED IT, WHY DO WE NEED TO HEAR THAT CLUNK ON THE FRONT STEP OF THE PAPER.

>> Kate: WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT, THAT NEW HABIT.

IN CONSUMING NEWS ON THE WEB, I FIND, FOR MYSELF, I'M GETTING NIBBLES OF IT.

I'M A FEW MINUTES ON THIS WEBSITE, I'M A FEW MINUTES ON THAT SITE.

IT'S NOT LIKE SITTING DOWN WITH THE SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES AND DEVOURING A LOT OF INFORMATION.

WHAT IS THAT DOING TO OUR SENSE OF THE COMMUNITY?

WHAT'S IT DOING TO OUR THOUGHT PROCESSES?

>> Gene: YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING.

I DON'T KNOW HOW QUITE YET THE INABILITY TO SIT DOWN AND READ A 5000 WORD PIECE IS SORT OF AFFECTING THE CULTURE.

YOU DO NEED TIME, AND IT KIND OF HAS TO FIT IN YOUR LIFE.

AND I DO THE SAME THING.

I'M JUST AS GUILTY OF TAKING THOSE BITES ON THE WEB.

I CRUISE SIX OR EIGHT NEWSPAPER WEBSITES A DAY.

YOU CAN'T READ THEM ALL COVER-TO-COVER, SO YOU HAVE TO TAKE LITTLE BITES HERE AND THERE.

AT SOME POINT, THE BEST YOU CAN DO IS GET THE ACCUMULATION OF OPINIONS, IF YOU'RE BITING, AND YOU CAN COME TO SOME KIND OF CONCLUSION THAT YOU HAVE A SENSE OF THE STORY, YOU HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT THE ISSUES ARE.

SO THAT'S THE UPSIDE OF THAT, OF GETTING THE BITE.

THE DOWN SIDE OF THAT, I THINK, IT SEEMS TO ME, IS IF YOU DON'T BRING THAT OTHER PART TO IT, THE ABILITY TO KIND OF LOOK AT ALL THOSE LITTLE BITES ON THE TABLE AS A MASS AT THE END OF THE DAY, OR AT THE END OF YOUR SESSION, WHAT GOOD HAS IT DONE?

YOU KNOW, NOTHING'S REALLY SORT OF SUNK IN.

SO I THINK IT'S AN INDIVIDUAL THING.

BUT I THINK FOR MOST FOLKS, I'M JUST HAPPY THEY'RE GOING OUT THERE BITING.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

>> Kate: GETTING AT LEAST THAT MUCH.

VERY QUICKLY, HOW DO YOU VIEW YOUR ROLE, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS A JOURNALIST?

>> Gene: IT'S PRETTY EASY FOR ME.

WHEN I SIT DOWN AND WRITE A PIECE EVERY DAY, IF I CAN'T, AT THE END OF WHAT I WRITE, FEEL LIKE IT'S GOING TO BE INFLUENTIAL IN SOME WAY, AND I DON'T MEAN JUST TO PROVOKE, I THINK THAT'S PRETTY CHEAP, BUT I THINK TO REALLY BE INFLUENTIAL AND BRING SOME NEW INFORMATION TO SOMEONE'S SENSIBILITIES AND HOW THEY VIEW THE WORLD, THEN I'VE FAILED THAT READER.

I'VE FAILED THAT READER, AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK MOST PEOPLE WHO SIT DOWN AND DO THIS BUSINESS ACTUALLY DO IN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

HOPEFULLY THEY STILL DO.

>> Gene: GENE GRANT, THANK YOU.

>> Gene: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Gene: WELL, THERE'S A POPULAR PLAYBACK IN THE SEVENTIES, FOUR LETTERS, IT'S -- LET ME SEE.

WHAT WAS THAT?

HAIR!

IT WAS HAIR.

I HAD A LOT OF HAIR BACK IN 2005, Y'ALL.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF HAIR SINCE, RIGHT.

OH, MAN.

LIKE I SAID, THAT WAS BACK IN '05 WHEN BLOGS WERE ALL THE RAGE, SOMETHING YOU HEARD ME BRING UP WITH KATE ABOUT MY CONCERN ABOUT CONFIRMATION BIAS -- OH, MY GOSH -- THAT IF READERS DIDN'T LIKE THE NEWS THEY WERE HEARING, THEY COULD JUST GO TO A DIFFERENT BLOG OR WEBSITE TO REINFORCE WHAT THEY ALREADY BELIEVED ABOUT THE WORLD.

NOW, SINCE THAT INTERVIEW, THE BLOG ERA HAS EVOLVED THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA.

18 YEARS LATER, IT'S AMAZING, THE QUESTION REMAINS THE SAME.

CATHY McGILL, CAN THE AVERAGE READER OR VIEWER IDENTIFY GOOD JOURNALISM, THE KIND OF REPORTING THAT CHALLENGES HOW THEY THINK AND STUFF LIKE THAT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS OUT THERE ON THE LANDSCAPE NOW?

>> McGill: I DON'T KNOW THAT PEOPLE REALLY WANT TO BE CHALLENGED, YOU KNOW.

THAT CONFIRMATION BIAS STILL EXISTS AND IT'S AIDED BY THE ALGORITHMS THAT ONLY FEED YOU THE NEWS, THE THINGS THAT YOU WANT TO HEAR.

SO YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE NOT A SEEKER OF TRUTH, THEN YOU CAN SORT OF, YOU KNOW, SIT IN YOUR BIAS.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE PATIENCE AND TIME, T.J. TROUT, TO READ A 5000 WORD SET PIECE ON A SUNDAY.

BUT FOLKS MISS OUT ON A LOT.

HOW DO WE MAKE UP THAT GAP?

WHAT HAPPENS?

>> T.J.: YOUR HAIR WAS AMAZING.

>> McGill: IT WAS AMAZING!

>> T.J.: YOU WERE VERY ATTRACTIVE.

[LAUGHTER] >> Gene: HAIR IS POWERFUL.

MANY BOOKS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT HAIR.

>> T.J.: TO YOUR QUESTION, THOUGH, I KIND OF AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT HOW PEOPLE DON'T HAVE -- THEY DON'T HAVE THE PATIENCE TO SIFT THROUGH A 5000 WORD PIECE OF JOURNALISM ANYMORE, I AGREE WITH YOU.

HOWEVER, I SLIGHTLY DISAGREE WITH YOU IN THE FACT THAT I THINK 20, 30, 40 YEARS AGO, I DON'T THINK THEY HAD THE PATIENCE TO SIT THROUGH IT BACK THEN, EITHER.

THEY DIDN'T.

I THINK THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT WOULD SIT THROUGH AND READ A 5000 PIECE OF GOOD JOURNALISM ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY FULLY ENGAGED WITH THE POLITICAL PROCESS, AND KNEW THAT THEY HAD TO TAKE THE TIME TO DO THIS.

I THINK EVERYBODY ELSE, EVEN BACK THEN, WERE STILL DISTRACTED BY SHINY THINGS, TV, AND LIFE.

I MEAN, LIFE GOT IN THE WAY OF PEOPLE DOING THAT.

>> Gene: THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

KATHY WIMMER, I'M SO GLAD YOU'RE AT THE TABLE.

>> Wimmer: MY FIRST TIME AT THE TABLE AFTER ALL THESE YEARS.

>> Gene: IT'S AMAZING TO THINK ABOUT.

>> Wimmer: ALL THESE YEARS.

>> Gene: BECAUSE YOU PREDATE ME HERE.

SO YOU WERE HERE A LONG TIME.

>> Wimmer: WELL, YEAH, WE HAVE A LOT OF HISTORY.

A LOT OF HISTORY.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

I'M CURIOUS, FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW, THOUGH, I BROUGHT UP SOMETHING THAT'S STILL VALID TODAY, IT'S THE CONCERN OVER HOW EASY IT IS TO GET LOST SCROLLING THROUGH LITTLE BITS OF INFORMATION.

I MEAN, IT'S EVEN WORSE NOW.

AND YOU HAD TO DO THAT FOR WORK HERE.

YOU HAD TO SCROLL THROUGH SO MANY NEWS SITES EVERY WEEK, EVERY MONDAY, EVERY FRIDAY.

IS IT TOO MUCH FOR PEOPLE?

>> Wimmer: THAT'S THE THING, I WOULD SCROLL THROUGH A LOT OF INFORMATION, BUT I THINK WE NEED TO, LIKE, LOOK AT, OKAY, WHAT ARE WE SCROLLING FOR?

I AM THE FACTS KIND OF PERSON, AND WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED WHEN, WHERE, WHY, WHAT WAS IT, AND THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING.

AND SOMETIMES YOU GET THAT INFORMATION, AND IF YOU DON'T THEN PASS THAT ON, LIKE THERE'S A PIECE MISSING.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS, YOU KNOW, WE DID A LOT WHEN I EVEN WROTE SCRIPTS FOR THE LINE, WAS YOU GOT TO GET ALL THOSE FACTS IN THERE AND THE PIECES THAT ARE IMPORTANT.

AND YES, IT'S EASY TO SCROLL PAST THAT.

BUT YOU EVEN MENTIONED BACK IN 2005, ON In FOCUS WITH KATE NELSON, ABOUT NIBBLES VERSUS A MEAL, YOU KNOW.

YOU GET LITTLE NIBBLES, AND THAT'S GREAT, BUT IF YOU'RE MISSING, LIKE, THE NUTRIENTS OF THE MEAL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A PROBLEM.

AND SO SOMETIMES THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED JOURNALISTS TO DO, IS TO POINT OUT THE PROTEINS, YOU KNOW.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

I GOT A QUESTION REGARDING T.J. TROUT FOR YOU, CATHY McGILL.

LET'S SAY YOU'RE LISTENING TO T.J. T.J.'S ANGLE OF ATTACK IS NOT TO BE A NEWS PERSON, TO HAVE FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, AS KATHY POINTED OUT, BUT TO OFFER A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON THE NEWS, A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON THE HEADLINES.

DOES THAT NOT COUNT AS PART OF THE MIX OUT THERE?

I MEAN, T.J.'S FILLING IN A CERTAIN SORT OF A BLANK THERE FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE.

>> McGill: I THINK THAT, YEAH.

LIKE, YOU'RE A PERSONALITY, RIGHT.

YOU HAVE YOUR OPINIONS.

WE ALL HAVE OUR OPINIONS.

AND AS LONG AS IT'S PRESENTED AS THAT AND NOT PRESENTED AS FACT, AND NOT, YOU KNOW, THESE SORT OF ALTERNATIVE FACTS THAT HAVE BECOME POPULARIZED THESE DAYS, THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE EXPRESSING YOUR OPINION, THAT THEY HAVE THE ABILITY, AND THAT YOU SHOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO GO OUT AND RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF.

I ALWAYS SAY, YOU KNOW, DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, GO READ IT FOR YOURSELF.

HERE'S WHAT I THINK ABOUT IT, YOU CAN AGREE OR DISAGREE.

>> T.J.: WELL, THAT'S WHAT I SAY ALL THE TIME.

IT'S JUST SO IMPORTANT ON MY SHOW, TOO, TO GET THE TRUTH OUT.

I MEAN, ESPECIALLY THESE DAYS.

THAT'S THE WHOLE THING.

I THINK THAT IS THE ISSUE OF OUR GENERATION RIGHT NOW.

WHAT IS TRUTH, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF WHAT TRUTH IS PURPORTED TO BE.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

ANOTHER BIG PART OF THIS, AND KATHY HAD TO DEAL WITH THIS AS WELL WHEN SHE WAS WITH US, IS THAT DEALING WITH FOLKS ANGRY ABOUT CERTAIN FACTS NOT BEING EXPRESSED, OR CERTAIN ANGLES OF ATTACK NOT BEING EXPLORED, THAT KIND OF THING.

THE REASON I BRING THAT UP IS THAT PEOPLE NOW HAVE A WAY TO GET TO PERSONALITIES LIKE YOU, OR A PRODUCER LIKE KATHY, VERY EASILY.

BEFORE IT WAS SNAIL MAIL.

WHEN I WAS DOING COLUMNS A THE TRIBUNE, PEOPLE WOULD COMPLAIN AND IT CAME IN AN ENVELOPE WITH A STAMP ON IT.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

THEY CAN GET RIGHT AT YOU RIGHT AFTER A SHOW AND SAY, YOU'RE A BUM.

OR ME, OR ANYBODY.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

HOW HAS THAT CHANGED THE RELATIONSHIP?

>> T.J.: IT HASN'T CHANGED MY RELATIONSHIP AT ALL.

I LEARNED VERY EARLY ON THAT I GENERALLY -- I CALL IT, THE TEXT LINE THAT COMES INTO THE RADIO STATION, AND I DON'T CARE IF I ANGER PEOPLE AT ALL, I CALL IT THE ABUSE LINE.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS?

IT'S A BUNCH OF PEOPLE, GENERALLY SPEAKING, SCREAMING FROM THE CHEAP SEATS WHATEVER THEY WANT TO SCREAM WITH NO FILTER, AND THEY KNOW IF YOU SAID SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO THEIR -- IF THEY SAID SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO MY FACE, WE'D HAVE A PROBLEM.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

MANAGEMENT HAS TO DEAL WITH A LOT OF THINGS HERE ON AN OPINION SHOW, BELIEVE ME.

>> T.J.: SO MY STRATEGY IS, KEEP THAT STUFF AWAY, KEEP YOUR HEAD DOWN, AND PUT FORTH THE BEST PRODUCT YOU CAN, AND PUT OUT AS MUCH INFORMATION, GOOD INFORMATION AS YOU CAN FOR PEOPLE, AND HOPEFULLY THEY'LL LISTEN.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

HEY, FOLKS AT HOME, WHEN OUR PRODUCERS WENT DIGGING FOR THOSE OLD CLIPS, IT REALLY WAS FUNNY TO FIND MY FIRST APPEARANCE WAS CENTERED AROUND A TOPIC WE JUST PACKAGED INTO A TWO-PART SPECIAL, THE STATE OF JOURNALISM IN NEW MEXICO.

WE JUST RAN THAT TWO WEEKS AGO, OR THREE WEEKS AGO.

MOST MEDIA OUTLETS DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR RESOURCES TO TURN THE LENS ON THEMSELVES FROM TIME TO TIME.

SO KATHY WIMMER, I WANT TO ASK, DO YOU THINK IT'S A VALUABLE EXERCISE TO REFLECT ON AND ASSESS OUR OWN INDUSTRY, AND MAYBE MORE IMPORTANTLY, LET PEOPLE KNOW HOW WE DO OUR JOBS?

>> Wimmer: ABSOLUTELY.

AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I ALWAYS WAS VERY ADAMANT ABOUT, BECAUSE OKAY, GENE, YOU'RE THE UBER-HOST.

THIS IS THE END OF AN ERA OF YOU BEING THE UBER-HOST.

BUT YOU WERE THE HOST OF THE LINE AND ALSO DID SOME HARD, LOTS OF HARD NEWS INTERVIEWS.

THE LINE IS AN OPINION PANEL, AND WE VERY CAREFULLY WANTED TO SAY, IT'S DIFFERENT OPINIONS.

NOW, YOU CAN HAVE ALTERNATE OPINIONS, NOT ALTERNATE FACTS, AND THAT WAS YOUR JOB TO KEEP THAT GOING.

BUT THE AUDIENCE ALSO WANTED TO KNOW YOUR OPINION, TOO.

AND YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO BRING IN YOUR OPINION WITH THE LINE.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I ALWAYS THINK YOU WERE A MASTER AT, AND I WILL TALK MORE ABOUT THAT, IS THAT THERE'S ALL SPECIALTIES IN SO MUCH OF THE NEWS.

SOMEBODY COVERS SPORTS, SOMEONE COVERS ART, SOMEONE COVERS THE GOOD FEELING NEWS OF THE DAY.

AND YOU GOT TO DO ALL OF THEM, AND YOU CROSSED EACH ONE VERY WELL.

I MEAN, YOU SPANNED EACH TOPIC VERY WELL.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE THE MASTER AT IT.

>> Gene: I APPRECIATE THAT A LOT.

I WANT TO NOTE ON SOMETHING YOU MENTIONED IN THE MIDDLE THERE, AND THAT IS MY ABILITY TO EXPRESS MY OWN OPINION, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING I WAS ALWAYS VERY CONSCIOUS OF.

YOU CANNOT DO THAT OFTEN.

THERE ARE CERTAIN TIMES TO DO IT FROM THIS SEAT, BUT PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR PEOPLE FROM THESE SEATS OVER HERE.

THAT'S ALWAYS WHAT I HAD TO KEEP IN THE FRONT OF MY MIND.

AND INTERESTINGLY, DURING OUR TWO-PART SPECIAL LAST MONTH, WE SPOKE ABOUT THE CHANGING WAYS VIEWERS GET THEIR INFORMATION AND NOTED THAT YOUNGER VIEWERS, THIS IS INTERESTING, GEN-Z AND MILLENNIALS CONSUME THE MOST NEWS WHILE SCROLLING ONLINE.

SO HAS WAKING UP AND SCROLLING ON YOUR PHONE REPLACED MY GENERATION'S MORNING ROUTINE OF STARTING THE DAY WITH YOUR MORNING NEWSPAPER?

I MEAN, AGAIN, IS THIS A CREDIBLE WAY TO GET YOUR NEWS?

AND HAVE NEWSPAPERS ADAPTED TO THE SHIFT, PROBABLY MORE IMPORTANTLY.

>> McGill: I THINK NEWSPAPERS ARE WORKING VERY HARD TO ADAPT TO THE SHIFT, BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO.

YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE AN ONLINE PRESENCE.

AND SO I HOPE THAT PEOPLE ARE, YOU KNOW, SCROLLING THROUGH AND TRYING TO SAMPLE SOMETHING FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLACES BEFORE COMING TO A FINAL CONCLUSION.

SO YOU KNOW, GET SOME MORE EYES ON IT, ASK ABOUT WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON, AND READ IT FOR YOURSELF.

>> Gene: EXACTLY RIGHT.

T.J. >> T.J.: GENE.

>> Gene: I THINK ABOUT YOU OFTEN.

YOU HAVE A QUESTION TO ASK ME, I THINK.

>> T.J.: YES, I DO.

>> Gene: I CAN SEE IT IN YOUR EYES.

I KNOW YOU.

YOU'RE NOODLING SOMETHING OVER THERE.

>> T.J.: I'M WRITING NOTES OVER HERE, GENE.

OKAY, IT WAS INTERESTING YOU AND KATE NELSON BACK IN 2005 DISCUSSING THE STATE OF JOURNALISM BACK THEN.

OKAY, SO WHAT DO YOU THINK HAS CHANGED?

I THINK I KNOW WHAT HAS CHANGED, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE RESPONSIBILITY IN 2023 FOR A JOURNALIST?

>> Gene: THAT'S A TRICKY QUESTION, RESPONSIBILITY.

YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE IT'S ABOUT LETTING THE READER OR THE VIEWER KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

THERE'S ALMOST A RESPONSIBILITY OF THAT.

LIKE, WHO IS THIS PERSON GIVING ME THIS INFORMATION?

I NEED A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN JUST A BYLINE, A NAME, A GENDER, I NEED SOMETHING JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN THAT AS A CONSUMER FOR MYSELF.

I'M NOT ASKING FOR YOUR POLITICAL BIAS, I'M NOT ASKING FOR YOUR BACKGROUND, I'M NOT ASKING HOW YOU VOTED, NOT THAT STUFF, BUT I DO GENERALLY WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE WRITER OR THE PRESENTER, AND I THINK YOU OWE THAT A LITTLE BIT TO THE AUDIENCE THESE DAYS.

I THINK BACK WHEN YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO DO A LOT OF THAT KIND OF STUFF.

>> T.J.: 100%.

I AGREE 100% WITH YOU.

AND THE THING THAT KILLS ME THESE DAYS ARE THE SO-CALLED JOURNALISTS WHO ARE JUST THROWING STUFF OUT THERE ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT HAVE NO TRAINING, YOU KNOW, NO EDUCATION REALLY TO SPEAK OF, AND THEY'RE JUST FULL OF OPINIONS AND MISINFORMATION AND HEARSAY.

>> Gene: IT'S HARD TO PARSE.

>> T.J.: IT'S HARD.

>> Wimmer: I THINK YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WHEN YOU SAID, THEY WANT TO KNOW A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT YOU AND WHERE IT'S COMING FROM, BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST A TALKING HEAD, IT'S SOMETHING.

AND WE NEED THAT.

WE NEED THAT COMMUNICATION.

>> Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE AND TALKING THROUGH THAT.

I LOVE IT.

WE'RE GOING TO BE BACK HERE AT THE TABLE FOR ONE FINAL DISCUSSION AT THE END OF THE SHOW TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF OUR FAVORITE MEMORIES FROM NMPBS AND NEW MEXICO In FOCUS.

I KNOW I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT ONE.

BUT RIGHT NOW, ANOTHER INTERVIEW THAT STICKS OUT IN MY MIND FROM MY TIME WORKING HERE.

BACK IN 2014, PBS WAS AIRING THE HIT SERIES FROM HENRY LOUIS GATES CALLED 'FINDING YOUR ROOTS,' YOU MIGHT REMEMBER.

IF YOU HAVEN T SEEN IT, HE AND A TEAM OF GENEALOGISTS GATHERED INFORMATION ON THE HERITAGE OF CELEBRITIES AND PUBLIC FIGURES, EVENTUALLY SHARING THEIR FINDINGS ON CAMERA WITH THEM, TO THEIR SURPRISE.

IN OCTOBER OF THAT YEAR, WE DECIDED TO DO SOMETHING HERE AT NMPBS, INVITING GENEALOGIST RUTH RANDALL ON THE SHOW TO TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MY HERITAGE THAT I NEVER KNEW, AND IT REALLY WAS FASCINATING.

>> Gene: RUTH, I'VE GOT TO START WITH YOU.

MY FAMILY, WE DO NOT KNOW MUCH ABOUT MY FAMILY HISTORY, BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW WELL FROM AFRICAN-AMERICAN RESEARCH; YOU CAN ONLY GO SO FAR BACK AND THEN YOU KIND OF GET TO A STOPPING POINT.

YOU'RE NOT QUITE SURE WHERE YOUR FAMILY ROOTS HAVE COME FROM.

SO WITH BAITED BREATH, I MUST ASK, WHAT DID YOU COME UP WITH FOR THE GRANT FAMILY?

>> Randall: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, YOU HAVE A VERY INTERESTING ANCESTRY.

YOUR MATERNAL LINE IS FROM CAPE VERDE, AND THE ISLANDS OF CAPE VERDE WERE COLONIZED BY THE PORTUGUESE IN THE MID 16th CENTURY, AND THE ISLANDS SUBSEQUENTLY BECAME A CENTER FOR THE SLAVE TRADE.

YOUR PATERNAL LINE IS FROM BARBADOS, A SOUTHERN CARIBBEAN ISLAND, AND IN THE MID 17th CENTURY, THE ISLAND BROUGHT IN SLAVES TO WORK IN THE SUGAR INDUSTRY.

NOW, YOUR FATHER WAS BORN IN MASSACHUSETTS.

YOUR FATHER'S FATHER, JOSEPH, WAS BORN IN BARBADOS.

DO YOU KNOW WHEN YOUR GRANDFATHER JOSEPH CAME TO THE UNITED STATES?

>> Gene: BOY, I THINK IT WAS IN THE TEENS.

I'M NOT QUITE SURE.

1918, 1919, SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE.

I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE.

>> Randall: WELL, HE CAME TO THE UNITED STATES IN 1923, TUESDAY, JULY 24TH, AND HE WAS ON THE SS PAMPAS.

>> Gene: I'LL BE DARNED.

WHAT A WAY TO TRAVEL.

MY GOODNESS.

>> Randall: YES.

ON LINE 21 OF THE SHIP MANIFEST IS YOUR GRANDFATHER'S NAME.

>> Gene: WOW.

>> Randall: YOU CAN SEE IT BETTER ON THIS ONE.

>> Gene: I'LL BE DARNED.

>> Randall: DID YOU KNOW THAT HE WAS A SKILLED CRAFTSMAN?

>> Gene: I KNEW HE BECAME A SKILLED CRAFTSMAN.

I DON'T KNOW WHEN THE CRAFTS -- WHEN IT STARTED?

LIKE HOW HE GOT GOING.

>> Randall: WELL, WHEN HE BOARDED THE SHIP IN BARBADOS, HE'S LISTED AS A COOPER, WHICH MEANT HE WAS A MAKER OF BARRELS AND PAILS OR BUTTER CHURNS.

WOODEN VESSELS.

>> Gene: I HAD NO IDEA.

HOW INTERESTING.

>> Randall: AND THEN ON FEBRUARY 1st, 1943, YOUR GRANDFATHER JOSEPH, AFTER SIGNING A DECLARATION OF INTENT AND GIVING AN OATH OF ALLEGIANCE, PASSING A CIVICS TEST, WAS GRANTED CITIZENSHIP, AND HERE IS HIS SIGNATURE.

>> Gene: OH, WOW.

>> Randall: HIS DATE OF BIRTH, AND THE DATE OF ADMISSION.

AND THIS IS HIS CERTIFICATION FOR NATURALIZATION.

>> Gene: I'LL BE DARNED.

WOW.

I NEVER HEARD ABOUT IT.

HE'S NEVER MENTIONED IT, OR MY DAD, EITHER.

>> Randall: SO THERE YOU ARE.

>> Gene: WOW.

>> Randall: NOW, ON APRIL 27, 1942, ALL MEN IN THE UNITED STATES WHO WERE BORN ON OR AFTER APRIL 28, 1877, OR ON OR BEFORE FEBRUARY 16, 1897, HAD TO REGISTER FOR THE DRAFT.

AND IT'S COMMONLY REFERRED TO AS THE OLD MAN'S DRAFT.

SO HERE'S YOUR GRANDFATHER JOSEPH'S CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION, HIS DRAFT REGISTRATION CARD.

AND THEN YOUR GRANDMOTHER'S NAME, BECAUSE THAT'S THE PERSON WHO WOULD ALWAYS KNOW WHERE HE LIVED.

>> Gene: GOTCHA.

I'VE NEVER SEEN HIS SIGNATURE BEFORE.

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING.

LOOK AT THAT.

>> Randall: NOW, YOUR GRANDMOTHER, NAOMI, AND JOSEPH MARRIED AROUND 1928.

ON NOVEMBER 7TH, 1949, SHE TOOK THE SAME STEPS AS HER HUSBAND, YOUR GRANDFATHER, TO BECOME A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO THERE'S HER SIGNATURE.

THAT INCLUDES HER MAIDEN NAME.

>> Gene: WOW.

AND THAT'S THE ADDRESS THAT I KNEW THEM FROM.

THAT WAS THE PUTNAM AVENUE IN CAMBRIDGE.

>> Randall: NOW, NAOMI'S FATHER WAS WILLIAM ADOLPHUS ELDER.

DO YOU KNOW WHEN HE CAME TO THE UNITED STATES?

>> Gene: I DON'T.

>> Randall: OKAY.

WELL, HE BOARDED THE SS CUTHBERT ON FRIDAY, MARCH 13, 1914.

AND HIS NAME APPEARS ON LINE 19, I THINK, OF THIS DOCUMENT, YES.

AND HE WAS A PORTER AT THE TIME.

>> Gene: A PORTER, OKAY.

INTERESTING.

>> Randall: HE, TOO, WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS TO BECOME A U.S. CITIZEN, AND SO HERE'S HIS CERTIFICATE OF NATURALIZATION.

>> Gene: A LOT GOING ON WITH MY FAMILY IN THE EARLY 1940s.

>> Randall: WELL, REALLY, THAT'S GREAT-GRANDFATHER, AND THIS IS GREAT-GRANDMOTHER.

NOW, I THINK THE INFORMATION I HAD, SHE WAS ALWAYS REFERRED TO ALBERTHA.

SHE WAS ALBERTHA ELIZABETH ELDER.

AND ON OTHER DOCUMENTS, SHE IS ELIZABETH ELDER.

SO HERE'S HER CERTIFICATE OF NATURALIZATION, THEIR ADDRESS AND HER SIGNATURE, DATE OF BIRTH.

>> Gene: WOW.

>> Randall: THERE YOU GO.

>> Gene: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THIS IS AMAZING.

>> Randall: DELIGHTED TO SHARE THIS WITH YOU.

>> Gene: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THIS IS REALLY QUITE SOMETHING.

NONE OF THIS INFORMATION WE HAVE IN OUR FAMILY, I DON'T BELIEVE, BECAUSE WE'VE ALL MOVED AROUND.

THAT'S HAPPENS IN LIFE, FAMILIES MOVE AROUND AND THINGS.

AND THIS CONNECTS SO MANY DOTS, I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO TELL YOU.

BUT I WILL TAKE THAT STEP.

I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME TALK IN OUR FAMILY AT THIS POINT.

>> Randall: WONDERFUL.

>> Gene: THANK YOU FOR KICKSTARTING IT.

>> Randall: IT WAS MY PLEASURE.

>> Gene: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Gene: I CANNOT THANK RUTH RANDALL ENOUGH.

INFORMATION ABOUT NEWS AND EVENTS IS ONE THING.

WHEN IT'S ABOUT YOUR FAMILY AND HERITAGE AND PRIDE, THAT'S ANOTHER STORY ALL TOGETHER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, RUTH.

SPEAKING OF ROOTS, WE ALL NEED WATERING OF OUR ROOTS TO GROW, AND IN MY BUSINESS, THAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN YOU HAVE HEROES TO LOOK UP TO.

AND WITHOUT QUESTION, THERE'S A HERO OF MINE WHO HELPED SHAPE MY LIFE AS A PROFESSIONAL.

THAT WOULD BE THE LATE GWEN IFILL.

WHEN I WAS A YOUNG MAN, THERE WEREN'T A WHOLE LOT OF BLACK FACES TO LOOK UP TO IN THE NEWS BUSINESS, ESPECIALLY FEMALE.

SHE WAS AN ENORMOUS FIGURE FOR ME.

HER WORK FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES COVERING THE CLINTON CAMPAIGN WAS A HIGHLIGHT.

HER BYLINE ABOVE THE FOLD NEARLY DAILY WAS A THING OF BEAUTY AND AN INSPIRATION.

IN 2010, SHE CAME TO OUR FAIR CITY FOR HER OWN BOOK TOUR FOR THIS, CALLED 'THE BREAKTHROUGH; POLITICS AND RACE IN THE AGE OF OBAMA.

GREAT BOOK, IF YOU HAVEN'T READ IT.

IF YOU ATTENDED THE PACKED EVENT THAT NIGHT THAT WE DID, YOU'LL RECALL HOW HUGE A FIGURE SHE WAS FOR ALL OF US, AND SITTING DOWN WITH HER AT THIS TABLE, HONESTLY, WAS DIZZYING.

I STILL CAN'T BELIEVE I DIDN'T JUST PASS OUT IN FRONT OF HER.

BUT WE MADE IT THROUGH, AND IT WAS TRULY, TRULY A MASSIVE HIGHLIGHT FOR ME.

>> Gene: ON THE BOOK, WHAT WAS YOUR IMPETUS TO WRITE THIS?

THERE'S BEEN PLENTY OF DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE RACE IN 2008, BUT YOU'RE COMING FROM A VERY DIFFERENT ANGLE HERE.

>> Ifill: VERY DIFFERENT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE, AS YOU RECALL BACK THEN, THOUGHT I WAS WRITING A BOOK ABOUT PRESIDENT OBAMA.

BUT IN FACT, PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS JUST THE SPARK FOR A STORY I HAD BEEN CARRYING AROUND IN MY HEAD FOR MANY YEARS, WHICH IS, WHO ARE THESE AFRICAN-AMERICANS WHO ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE BREAKTHROUGHS THAT HAPPENED DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT?

I WAS RAISED AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE WERE STILL MARCHING IN THE STREETS AND SITTING AT LUNCH COUNTERS.

I'M WATCHING A GENERATION OF YOUNG BLACK KIDS WHO WERE RAISED WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT LUNCH COUNTERS EVEN ARE.

THIS IS ALIEN TO THEM ALMOST.

AND EVEN WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS ELECTED, THEY WENT, UH-HUH, SO WHAT?

WHAT IS HAPPENING IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE SAW IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

INSTEAD OF MARCHES, INSTEAD OF LAWS ON THE BOOKS, WE NOW SEE A GENERATION OF CANDIDATES WHO ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE LAWS THAT WERE ALREADY PASSED.

THEY'RE NO LONGER TRYING TO GET LAWS PASSED, THEY'RE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS, OR TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ACCESS TO ELITE EDUCATION, WHICH WE SEE SO MANY OF THEM IN THIS BREAKTHROUGH CROWD HAVE.

AND AS A RESULT, THE IMPETUS KIND OF CHANGES.

IT'S NOT IDENTIFY FOCUSED.

IT'S NOT IDENTITY DRIVEN.

BUT WHAT YOU SEE WHEN YOU SEE THEM ALL OF A SUDDEN IN THE MIX, NOT ONLY IN CONGRESS AND IN THE WHITE HOUSE, BUT ALSO IN THE STATE LEGISLATURES AND IN MAYOR'S OFFICES, IS THAT WE'VE NOW, THE WORD IS INTEGRATED POLITICS IN A WAY THAT HADN'T HAPPENED IN THE 1960s OR '70s.

>> Gene: INTERESTING PART ABOUT THE BOOK THAT I GOT A LOT OUT OF, BECAUSE AGAIN, IF YOU WERE EITHER THERE DURING THOSE EARLY CIVIL RIGHTS STRUGGLES OR NOT, WHAT'S WONDERFUL ABOUT THE BOOK IS THAT LOOK AT THE SANDPAPER FRICTION YOU DESCRIBE BETWEEN THE MOSES GENERATION, THOSE WHO CAME UP AND FOUGHT THE GREAT BATTLES, THE EPIC BATTLES, AND AS YOU JUST MENTIONED, THOSE WHO HADN'T.

BUT THE NEGOTIATION BETWEEN THOSE TWO THOUGHTS ARE A FASCINATING DEAL.

>> Ifill: SOMETIMES BETWEEN PARENTS AND THEIR CHILDREN.

IT'S INTERESTING TO SEE SOMEONE LIKE A BILL CLAY IN MISSOURI WHO BROKE THROUGH AND GOT ARRESTED IN CIVIL RIGHTS MARCHES, AND HIS SON IS IN CONGRESS BUT CAMPAIGNING ON BEHALF OF SCHOOL VOUCHERS, SOMETHING HIS FATHER WOULD BE COMPLETELY AGAINST.

JESSIE JACKSON, JR. AND JESSIE JACKSON, SR., DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO KIND OF THE SAME GOALS.

SO IT'S INTERESTING TO WATCH WHAT HAPPENS.

AND ALSO WHAT HAPPENS IS, WHEN YOU GET POWER, YOU DON'T LIKE HANDING IT OVER.

AND THAT'S NOT JUST IF YOU'RE AFRICAN-AMERICAN, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE BRAHMIN AND THE IRISH IN BOSTON, IT'S JUST THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS HAPPENED.

BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'VE ONLY RECENTLY COME TO POWER IS THE FRICTION IS THAT MUCH GREATER.

IT'S LIKE, I'M NOT WILLING TO GIVE YOU THAT TORCH YET, EVEN THOUGH IF YOU WOULD JUST WAIT A MOMENT.

ALL THESE CANDIDATES I TALKED TO WERE TOLD TO JUST WAIT A MINUTE, WE'LL GET TO YOU.

INSTEAD, YOU NOW HAVE A GENERATION WHO ARE SAYING, WELL, THAT'S NICE, THANK YOU SO MUCH, WE RESPECT WHAT YOU DID, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO WAIT, UP TO AND INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT.

>> Gene: BLACK POLITICS, IT'S ONE OF THOSE UNFAIR QUESTIONS.

BUT WHERE ARE WE RIGHT NOW?

WE HAVE A BLACK PRESIDENT.

WE'VE GOT CERTAINLY SOME REPRESENTATION.

BUT THE AMOUNT OF WOMEN IN ELECTED SEATS, THERE'S BEEN SOME PROBLEM.

WOMEN OF COLOR, I SHOULD BE SPECIFIC.

AND THEN, ALSO, FOR THE BENCH, SO TO SPEAK.

BLACK POLITICIANS COMING FORWARD TO RUN FOR NATIONAL OFFICE, WHERE DO WE STAND NOW?

>> Ifill: WHEN I FINISHED WRITING THIS BOOK, I WAS VERY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THIS.

I THINK THERE IS QUITE A DEEP BENCH IN A BENCH THAT WE'RE NOT AWARE OF.

EVERY TIME I WENT TO INTERVIEW SOMEONE FOR THE BOOK, THEY'D SAY, AND DO YOU KNOW ABOUT SO-AND-SO?

AND THEN I'D GO THERE AND THEY'D SAY, AND DO YOU KNOW ABOUT SO-AND-SO?

THE TWO BLACK REPUBLICANS WHO WERE ELECTED TO CONGRESS THIS TERM, I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THEM BEFORE SIX MONTHS AGO, PROBABLY.

SO THE IDEA THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WE'VE NEVER HEARD OF -- IN 2008, WHEN WE ELECTED BARACK OBAMA, NO ONE KNEW WHO HE WAS IN 2003 BEFORE HE GAVE HIS BIG SPEECH.

SO THINGS CHANGE VERY QUICKLY, AND I THINK THE BENCH IS DEEP, BUT IT'S NOT EXCLUSIVELY IDENTITY DRIVEN AND IT'S NOT EXCLUSIVELY PARTY DRIVEN.

I THINK THAT CAN ONLY BE HELPFUL.

I THINK IT CAN BE HELPFUL BECAUSE SO MANY OF THE KIDS WE'RE RAISING, WE'RE WALKING THIS LINE WHERE WE WANT THEM TO BE AWARE OF THEIR HISTORY, BUT WE DON'T WANT THEM TO BE BOUND BY IT.

AND IF WE CAN ELECT A GENERATION OF POLITICIANS OF COLOR, AND WHITE POLITICIANS, TOO, WHO SEE THE WORLD THAT WAY, ISN'T THAT WHAT WE'RE REALLY STRIVING FOR?

>> Gene: ABSOLUTELY.

THE QUESTION IS, IS IT APPROPRIATE FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS TO CRITICIZE VIGOROUSLY THIS AFRICAN-AMERICAN PRESIDENT PUBLICLY?

AND WE DO THIS AMONGST OURSELVES.

IT'S ALWAYS A GOOD ROW AMONGST OURSELVES.

BUT I'M THINKING BACK TO WHEN TAVIS SMILEY WAS ASKING SOME VERY TOUGH QUESTIONS DURING THE CAMPAIGN, AND CORNEL WEST, AND SOME OTHER FOLKS.

THAT SEEMS TO BE A PART OF THE DEMOCRACY, AS WELL.

YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE THESE ARGUMENTS.

>> Ifill: SURE IT IS, SOMEBODY'S GOT TO HOLD THE FEET TO THE FIRE, AND THAT'S FINE.

THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO DEVAL PATRICK IN MASSACHUSETTS.

HE JUST GOT RE-ELECTED, BUT HE HAD A PRETTY VIGOROUS REPUBLICAN CHALLENGER IN MASSACHUSETTS THIS LAST TIME.

BUT A LOT OF HIS LOUDEST CRITICS, ESPECIALLY EARLY ON, WERE AFRICAN-AMERICAN LEADERS WHO SAID, WAIT A SECOND, WHAT'S THE POINT IN ELECTING YOU IF YOU'RE NOT SPEAKING EXCLUSIVELY TO US?

AND HIS RESPONSE, AS IS OBAMA'S RESPONSE AND SO MANY OF THIS NEW GENERATION OF BREAKTHROUGH FIGURES, IS, YOU KNOW, DON'T GIVE ME SUCH A HART TIME, I'M GOING TO GET TO YOU IF I FIX ALL THIS OTHER STUFF.

AND IT'S JUST TWO DIFFERENT WAYS AND TWO DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES OF HOW ONE SPEAKS TO SAVING ONE'S COMMUNITY, OR SPEAKING FOR, OR REPRESENTING.

I THINK THAT WE'RE LEANING MORE TOWARD THE FORMER RATHER THAN THE LATTER, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO FEW AFRICAN-AMERICAN LEADERS, STATEWIDE LEADERS AND BEYOND, BUT ALSO BECAUSE WE'RE STILL A MINORITY AND MAJORITY SOCIETY.

AND IN A MAJORITY SOCIETY, ANYBODY, ALL THEY WANT FROM POLITICIANS IS FOR THEM TO SAY, I WILL SPEAK TO YOU, AND I WILL LISTEN TO YOU, AND I WILL SPEAK FOR YOU.

IF AT ANY POINT ANY POLITICIAN OF ANY COLOR OR CREED SEEMS LIKE THEY'RE ONLY SPEAKING TO ONE GROUP, THEY LOSE EVERYBODY ELSE.

AND THAT'S THE LINE.

>> Gene: SHE MAY BE GONE, SHE WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN GWEN IFILL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WHAT A WONDERFUL TIME SHE HAD HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, AND WE HAD WITH HER.

FABULOUS.

PBS NEWSHOUR HAS HAD A MAJOR IMPACT ON OUR STATION, AND OUR COVERAGE OVER THE YEARS.

IN JUST A FEW MINUTES, YOU'LL GET TO SEE SOME OF THE BIG STORIES I WAS ABLE TO EXPLAIN TO VIEWERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY VIA THE NEWSHOUR.

BUT BEFORE THAT, I WANTED TO SHARE ANOTHER INTERVIEW WITH A NEWSHOUR LEGEND, THAT WOULD BE JIM LEHRER.

IT'S HARD TO EXPRESS HOW THRILLING IT WAS FOR ME TO NOT JUST MEET THIS ENORMOUS HERO OF MINE, BUT TO HAVE A SWEET QUIET MOMENT WITH HIM IN OUR GREEN ROOM IS SOMETHING I'LL CHERISH FOREVER.

NOW, DURING THIS INTERVIEW, ALSO FROM 2010, I GOT THE CHANCE TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT SOME OF THE MAJOR CHANGES THAT WERE GOING ON AT THE NEWSHOUR AT THE TIME.

LOOKING BACK, I FIND OUR CONVERSATION INTERESTING FOR SEVERAL REASONS.

AS MR. LEHRER TALKS ABOUT THE EVER-EVOLVING WAYS PEOPLE CONSUME NEWS AND HOW NEWS OUTLETS MUST ADJUST, MANY OF THE IDEAS HE TOUCHES ON ARE STILL BEING THROWN AROUND NEWSROOMS TODAY, INCLUDING OUR OWN.

>> Gene: WE ARE VERY HONORED TO HAVE JIM LEHRER HOST OF THE PBS NEWS HOUR HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

THANK YOU FOR COMING AND SEEING US.

>> Lehrer: GENE, I AM DELIGHTED TO BE HERE.

THIS IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS FOR ME.

>> Gene: HERE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR BOOK.

I WANT TO GET TO THAT IN A QUICK SECOND.

WE WOULD BE REMISS IF WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT THE PBS NEWS HOUR AND SPECIFICALLY THE CHANGES THAT WERE RECENTLY MADE AND HOW SMOOTH IT WAS FOR SOME FOLKS.

BUT I AM SURE IN YOUR SHOP IT WASN'T ALL THAT SMOOTH.

SMOOTH RELATIVELY, THINGS ARE NOT EASY, AS THEY SAY.

BUT HOW DID THAT ALL WORK?

HOW WAS THE IMPETUS TO MAKE THOSE CHANGES AND HOW DID THAT GET IMPLEMENTED?

>> Lehrer: THERE WERE TWO THINGS THAT CAME TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME.

NO.

1, WAS THE NATURAL FEELING FOR ANYBODY WHO WATCHED OUR PROGRAM REGULARLY, THAT REALIZED THIS WAS BASICALLY A TEAM EFFORT.

IT WASN'T JUST ABOUT BILLY BOB ANYMORE, ONE PERSON WHO WAS THE ANCHOR AS I HAD BEEN FOR YEARS, WITH ROBERT MACNEIL BEFORE THAT.

IT WAS LESS ABOUT PEOPLE -- ONE OR TWO PEOPLE.

IT WAS ABOUT ALL KINDS OF FOLKS WHICH WAS INTENTIONAL BUT I THOUGHT THAT THE PROGRAM NEEDED -- THE TITLE OF THE PROGRAM NEEDED TO REFLECT THAT.

THAT WAS ONE THING GOING ON.

THE OTHER THING WAS REALITY.

THE REALITY OF THE NEWS BUSINESS, REALITY, PARTICULARLY IN THE TELEVISION BUSINESS AND PARTICULARLY IN THE SERIOUS JOURNALISM BUSINESS.

THAT WE HAD TO THINK OF WAYS AND USE THE NEW TECHNOLOGY TO SPREAD OUR BRAND OF JOURNALISM AND, YES, CONTINUE TO BE A PROGRAM THAT WAS BASICALLY AN APPOINTMENT TELEVISION PROGRAM BUT ALSO IF YOU WANTED TO WATCH US IN SOME OTHER -- IF YOU WANTED TO WATCH US ON A PINK I POD WITH YOUR NAME ENGRAVED ON IT, FINE.

BUT, TO EXPAND OUR ONLINE THING.

WE CAME TO THE REALIZATION, GENE, THAT WE HAD A SURVEY THAT SHOWED THAT 40% OF THE PEOPLE WHO WATCHED THE ONLINE NEWS HOUR NEVER WATCHED THE BROADCAST NEWS HOUR.

40% OF THE PEOPLE WHO WATCHED THE ONLINE, I MEAN, THE BROADCAST NEWS HOUR NEVER WENT TO THE ONLINE.

SO, WE REALIZED THAT WE HAD SOME CROSS FERTILIZATION TO DO AND SO WE EXPANDED HORIZONTALLY.

AND, NOW, IF THERE IS A TWEAK, WE TWEAK.

IF THERE IS A TWITTER, WE TWITTER.

WE ARE THERE FOR -- WE ARE USING THE MECHANICS AND BASICALLY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MECHANICS, WE ARE USING THE MECHANICS IN EVERY WAY WE POSSIBLY CAN WITHOUT CHANGING THE BRAND OF JOURNALISM, WITHOUT CHANGING THE THRUST OF OR JOURNALISM BY JUST OFFERING IT TO PEOPLE IN WAYS THAT HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT AND MORE AND MORE VEHICLES.

>> Gene: WAS THERE RESISTANCE INSIDE THE SHOP?

I MEAN, YOU TALK ABOUT FACEBOOK, TWITTER, ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.

>> Lehrer: IN FACT, SOME OF THE OLD PEOPLE, AND I AM THE OLDEST ONE THERE, WAIT A MINUTE, DO WE REALLY WANT TO DO THIS?

I BECAME CONVINCED, YES, WE REALLY DO WANT TO DO THIS, BECAUSE IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN WHAT WE ARE DOING, IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN WHAT WE ARE DOING IN PUBLIC BROADCASTING, THEN WE HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE MORE OF WHAT WE DO IS BETTER NOT ONLY FOR OUR COMMUNITIES AND FOR OUR AUDIENCES GENERALLY, IF IT IS A REGIONAL AUDIENCE OR STATE AUDIENCE OR NATIONAL AUDIENCE.

IT IS ALSO THE BEST FOR US.

IT IS ALSO PART OF OUR MISSION.

THE MISSION OF PUBLIC BROADCASTING HAS ALWAYS BEEN TO GO WITH THE FLOW, THE FLOW OF GROWTH, THE FLOW OF NEED AND MY GOODNESS YOU TALK ABOUT A NEED FOR CONTINUED SERIOUS JOURNALISM, IT HAS NEVER BEEN HIGHER THAN IT IS RIGHT NOW AS NEWSPAPERS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ARE HAVING REAL FINANCIAL PROBLEMS AND THEY ARE CUTTING BACK AND CUTTING BACK.

AND WHAT ARE THEY CUTTING BACK, THEY ARE CUTTING BACK THEIR SERIOUS JOURNALISM.

IT'S NOT JUST AN OPPORTUNITY THAT, OH, WELL, THESE OTHER PEOPLE ARE HAVING THEIR PROBLEMS, WE IN PUBLIC BROADCASTING SHOULD HELP FILL IT, WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO HELP FILL THIS.

AND THAT MEANS ALSO WHAT WE HAVE ALSO BEEN DOING AND THE NEW NEWS HOUR, THE PBS NEWS HOUR, HAS FORMED NEW COALITIONS AMONG ORGANIZATIONS, SOME OF THEM ONLINE, SOME OF THEM PRINT, SOME OF THEM WHATEVER, AND TO HELP AMORTIZE OR JOURNALISM COSTS.

IF THEY ARE IN THE SAME RACKET WE ARE IN, WHICH IS SERIOUS JOURNALISM, WE'LL MAKE A DEAL WITH YOU.

WE'LL COLLABORATE AND AMORTIZE SOME OF THE JOURNALISM COLLECTING AND REPORTING COSTS.

SO, WE ARE STILL IN THE BEGINNING, STILL IN THAT, AND ALL OF US IN THERE HAVE TO KEEP OUR EYE ON THE BALL AND REMEMBER WHY WE ARE IN THERE AND THOSE OF US IN PUBLIC BROADCASTING IN PARTICULAR.

>> Gene: HOW IMPORTANT ARE AFFILIATES LIKE KNME TO THAT MISSION?

IS THAT ALL PIECES OF A WHOLE?

YOU KNOW, IS THE NEWS HOUR THE HUB AND WE ARE ALL THE SPOKES OUT HERE, BUT IT ALL ADDS UP TO A WHOLE AT SOME LEVEL.

>> Lehrer: ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THE THING ABOUT PUBLIC BROADCASTING THE WORD PUBLIC HAS NEVER BEEN MORE VITAL THAN IT IS NOW.

PUBLIC MEANS THE PUBLIC IN ALBUQUERQUE.

THE PUBLIC IN MCKINNEY, TEXAS, THE PUBLIC IN NEW YORK, THE PUBLIC IN LOS ANGELES, THE PUBLIC IN MINNEAPOLIS.

WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER.

AND LOCAL PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS AND PUBLIC RADIO STATIONS ARE REALIZING WITH ALL OF US TOGETHER THAT WE HAVE THE MEANS THAT NOBODY ELSE HAS TO HELP FACILITATE TO FILL THE VOID THAT IS INCREASING IN SERIOUS JOURNALISM AT THE LOCAL LEVEL AND AT THE STATE AND REGIONAL LEVEL AS WELL AS THE NATIONAL, INTERNATIONAL LEVEL.

WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN TO FORM COLLABORATIONS WITH LOCAL PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS MORE THAN WE HAVE EVER DONE.

WE HAVEN'T DONE THIS BEFORE AS WELL AS WE SHOULD HAVE AND EXTENSIVELY AS WE ARE NOW.

HERE AGAIN IT IS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL.

LET'S SAY THERE IS A STORY IN NEW MEXICO THAT WE BELIEVE, FOR WHATEVER REASON, SHOULD BE COVERED ON THE NEWS HOUR, WELL, IT IS BETTER FROM A STANDPOINT OF JUST JOURNALISTICALLY, THE PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS STORY THAN PARACHUTING IN A GROUP FROM WASHINGTON ON THE NEWS HOUR, NO.

1.

NO.

2, IT HELPS BOTH SIDES FINANCIALLY THAT WE CAN COVER A STORY IN NEW MEXICO WITH KNME THAN WITHOUT KNME.

AND IT JUST MAKES ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD.

>> FOR A BAROMETER OF WHERE HOUSING STANDS ACROSS THE COUNTRY WE ARE JOINED BY FOUR REPORTERS FOR PUBLIC MEDIA, GENE GRANT IS A CORRESPONDENT FOR THE PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION KNME IN ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO.

>> Grant: WHERE WE SIT OUT HERE, WE HAVE GOT ONE OUT OF 675 HOMES HAVE HAD FORECLOSURE FILINGS.

THAT IS CERTAINLY NOT LIKE WE'RE HEARING FROM OUR GUESTS IN OHIO AND OTHER PLACES, NEVADA, FLORIDA.

BUT IT IS STILL RELATIVELY PROBLEMATIC.

WE HAVE GOT OVER 3800 HOMES HERE STATE-WIDE IN FORECLOSURE.

>> FOR MORE WE TURN TO COLLEAGUES FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

GENE GRANT IS WITH NEW MEXICO PBS, GENE.

>> Gene: VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT WE JUST HEARD FROM INDIANA THE LAST BIT OF IT ABOUT CERTAINLY THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE AND DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY CUTS HERE.

HERE, RAY, IN NEW MEXICO, WE HAVE SO MUCH FEDERAL PRESENCE EITHER THROUGH MILITARY OR THROUGH OUR NATIONAL LABORATORIES, BUT I'LL TELL YOU IF YOU'RE IN SOMEONE'S KITCHEN OR DINING ROOM, THEY ABSOLUTELY KNOW ABOUT SEQUESTRATION.

TO HEAR IT OFFICIALLY IN NEW MEXICO FROM EITHER THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, THE LEGISLATURE, THE MAYOR'S OFFICE HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, VERY, VERY LITTLE AT THIS POINT.

>> GENE, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CITED A PATTERN OF EXCESSIVE FORCE, SO, THEY ARE SEEING SOMETHING THAT LINKS ALL THESE SHOOTING, RIGHT?

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> Gene: YOU KNOW, IT IS INTERESTING.

AS YOU MENTIONED THERE WAS 37 INCIDENTS, 23 OF THEM FATAL.

AND WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR, QUITE SPECIFICALLY, IF THERE WAS AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL PATTERN OF FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS BEING VIOLATED HERE AND THEY WERE QUITE STRONG IN THEIR OPENING STATE RIGHT OFF THE BAT OF THE HEARING THIS MORNING THAT, IN FACT, THEIR FINDINGS DID FIND, IN FACT, THAT THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAD A NUMBER OF SITUATIONS THAT THEY FOUND UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND DID VIOLATE THOSE RIGHTS.

AND WHAT THAT ACTUALLY DID WAS OPENED UP A LOT OF DIALOGUE ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON HERE, WHAT IS THE PATTERN?

>> SOLOMON PENA, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, HAD A CRIMINAL HISTORY AND THERE WERE LAWMAKERS IN NEW MEXICO WHO TRIED TO KEEP HIM FROM RUNNING BECAUSE OF THAT.

TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> Gene: SPECIFICALLY HIS OPPONENT, MIGUEL GARCIA, WHO HELD THE SEAT AT THE TIME, HE WAS INCUMBENT, HE ACTUALLY FILED IN COURT TO KEEP MR. PENA OFF THE BALLOT BECAUSE HE HAD A FELONY RECORD.

>> GENE GRANT OF NEW MEXICO PBS.

GENE, THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR REPORTING WITH US TONIGHT.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> Gene: MY PLEASURE.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR SPECIAL GUESTS THIS WEEK FOR ONE FINAL DISCUSSION HERE AT THE ROUND TABLE.

OVER THE LAST TWO DECADES WE HAVE COVERED A WIDE RANGE OF TOPICS ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS FROM HISTORIC PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS TO A PANDEMIC THAT SENT US TO A VIRTUAL STUDIO.

WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH IT ALL OVER HERE AND KATHY WIMMER AS A FORMER PRODUCER HER, YOU HELPED SHAPE THE MAJORITY OF THE EPISODES I HAVE HOSTED ON THE LINE AND IN FOCUS AT THE TIME.

WHAT STORIES THAT HAVE WE HAVE DISCUSSED OR GUESTS THAT WE HAVE HAD THAT STAND OUT TO YOU.

I AM VERY CURIOUS.

IT IS A LOT OF GUESTS AND A LOT OF STORIES.

>> Wimmer: SO MANY, AND BUT THERE ARE QUITE A FEW THAT STAND OUT WITH ME AND A LOT OF THEM HAVE TO DO WITH YOU IN THE FIELD.

MY VERY FIRST TIME I WAS IN THE FIELD WITH YOU AND I AM JUST ONE OF MANY.

THERE HAS BEEN OTHER PRODUCERS WHO HAVE DONE A LOT OF THIS.

SO I JUST HAPPEN TO BE HERE IN THE HOT SEAT TODAY, BUT WE WENT OUT TO THE GOLF COURSE WHEN THEY WERE THINKING OF TEARING DOWN THE NORTH GOLF COURSE.

AND YOU AND I WENT OUT THERE AND, YOU KNOW, YOU ALWAYS SO GOOD IN THE FIELD.

THE GOLD STREET, WHEN THEY WERE TRYING TO PUT UP THE BIG BUILDING COMPLEX THAT SOME WERE OPPOSED TO AND SOME WERE VERY FOR.

THEN SENATOR OBAMA, WHEN HE WAS SENATOR OBAMA BEFORE HE BECAME PRESIDENT OBAMA, AND WE WENT TO DO THAT RALLY THAT HE WAS DOING.

THIS TAUGHT ME A BIG LESSON AND I THANK YOU FOR THE LESSONS YOU HAVE TAUGHT ME ABOUT RACIST BEHAVIORS IN THIS COUNTRY AND RIGHT HERE.

BECAUSE WE ALL WENT IN WITH A FULL CREW AND YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE THAT GOT PATTED DOWN.

YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE THAT GOT PULLED ASIDE AND PATTED DOWN AND I THOUGHT HERE IT IS.

THANK GOD HE WAS OUR FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT, I WAS VERY HAPPY ABOUT THAT, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SECURITY WERE JUST, YOU KNOW, REGULAR SECURITY AND THEY PULLED YOU OUT.

AND THAT REALLY HIT ME THAT, YOU KNOW, HERE IS A LESSON.

I AM GOING TO STOP TALKING BECAUSE THERE IS A WHOLE BUNCH MORE BUT OTHERS HAVE OTHER THINGS TO SAY.

>> Gene: THANK YOU KATHY, VERY SWEET.

I FORGOT ABOUT THAT WOMAN WITH THE OBAMA SITUATION.

BOY OH BOY, YOU HAVE BEEN WITH US, KATHY MCGEE FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.

IT IS ALMOST UNFAIR TO ASK YOU YOUR FAVORITE TIME HERE BUT I HAVE TO ASK YOU, WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR FAVORITE GO HER WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN AT THE TABLE.

>> McGill: WELL, YOU TALK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE HISTORIC PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS AND I REMEMBER BEING ON DURING SOME OF THOSE TIMES WHEN I WAS LIKE PLEASE DON'T ASK ME ABOUT THIS ONE PERSON.

DON'T ASK ME ANY QUESTIONS AND YOU ALWAYS MADE SURE THAT IT CAME AROUND TO ASKING ME ABOUT THOSE QUESTIONS AND I, OF COURSE, HAD TO RESPOND BY YELLING OR DOING SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

YOU KNOW.

THOSE THINGS STAND OUT BUT JUST LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY THAT YOU GAVE FOR ME TO TALK ABOUT OVERCOMING THE TRI CULTURAL MYTH IN NEW MEXICO AND WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE BELONGED AND TO GET THAT INFORMATION OUT AND FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE NEED TO LIVE UP TO THE PLEDGE TO OUR STATE FLAG THAT WE ARE PERFECT FRIENDSHIPS AMONG UNITED CULTURES.

AND SO I FEEL LIKE YOU HELPED ME TO DO THAT AND I WILL JUST SAY THAT WATCHING YOU INTERVIEW GWEN IFILL WAS ONE OF THE HIGHLIGHTS OF THINGS THAT I KNOW ABOUT YOU BECAUSE I SAW THAT THIS WAS YOU'RE HERO, THAT SHE WAS YOU'RE HERO AND SOMEBODY THAT YOU REALLY RESPECTED AND YOU WERE WELL PREPARED AND YOU ASKED THE RIGHT QUESTIONS AND WERE SO WONDERFUL DURING THAT TIME.

I WAS LIKE, I AM PROUD TO KNOW THIS GUY AND I ALSO WILL SAY THAT I SENT YOUR NATIONAL NEWS APPEARANCES AROUND TO MY MOM AND TO EVERYBODY.

LIKE, I KNOW HIM, HE IS A FRIEND OF MINE AND I HAVE HIS CELL PHONE NUMBER AND I TEXT HIM.

AND YOU'LL ALWAYS BE MY GO-TO PERSON FOR POLITICS LATE AT NIGHTTIMES WHEN I AM TEXTING YOU TO SAY, GENE, DID YOU HEAR THAT, DID YOU SEE WHAT THEY SAID.

>> Gene: THAT IS NOT OVER, NOT AT ALL.

THAT CARRIES ON, ABSOLUTELY.

TJ, I CAN REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME YOU SAT TO MY RIGHT, I WAS LIKE, TJ TROUT HERE, HE IS AMAZING.

THIS IS SO INTIMIDATING.

YOU HAVE GONE THROUGH THIS BEFORE, LEADING A SHOW.

YOU WERE WITH 94 ROCK, HOW MANY YEARS.

>> T.J.: I WAS WITH 94 ROCK FOR 25 YEARS.

>> Gene: I KNOW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ME HERE, BUT I AM EMBARRASSED A LITTLE TALKING ABOUT ME HERE, BUT RETIRING FROM SOMETHING, HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT IT, LEAVING A BROADCASTING CAREER.

>> T.J.: I KNEW IT WAS TIME.

MAYBE YOU KNEW IT WAS TIME TOO, BUT I WAS SCARED.

I WAS MAYBE INTIMIDATED A LITTLE BIT BY THE FUTURE.

WELL, NOW WHAT, WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WITH MY TIME NOW?

AND, OBVIOUSLY IT DIDN'T LAST LONG, RIGHT.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE EMOTION OF THIS, HOW MUCH EMOTION IS INVOLVED IN THIS AND I WAS LEAVING THE STATE.

YOU'RE NOT LEAVING THE STATE.

I WAS LEAVING THE STATE AND IT HIT ME, I WAS LEAVING AT CHRISTMASTIME AND I WAS ALONE, BECAUSE MY WIFE HAD ALREADY LEFT AND I WAS WALKING THROUGH THE SUNPORT TO BOARD MY PLANE, AND I JUST BURST INTO TEARS.

I WAS SOBBING LIKE A LITTLE BABY, ALL THE WAY DOWN, AND PEOPLE WERE LOOKING AT ME LIKE, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU MAN.

BUT IT IS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR YOU.

IT IS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR YOU.

DON'T BE AFRAID.

YOU KNOW WHEN IT IS TIME, YOU KNEW WHEN IT WAS TIME AND YOU PICK -- LET ME GO BACK TO ONE MORE THING.

I AM GOING TO FLIP THIS AROUND ON YOU.

ONE OF MY MOST MEMORABLE EXPERIENCES WITH YOU WAS ON MY SHOW AND THIS WAS RIGHT AFTER GEORGE FLOYD WAS MURDERED.

I DON'T KNOW -- I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO BEGIN THE CONVERSATION WITH YOU.

BUT WE HAD THE CONVERSATION AND YOU CAME ON AND YOU SUCCINCTLY EXPLAINED TO ME AND MY AUDIENCE PERSONALLY HOW YOU FELT ABOUT THAT INCIDENT.

AND YOU ALSO BROUGHT AN AFRICAN AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE I DON'T THINK MY AUDIENCE WOULD HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO IF IT WERE NOT FOR YOU AND I WILL ALWAYS THANK YOU FOR THAT.

IT WAS A BIG DEAL.

>> Gene: I APPRECIATE YOU BRINGING THAT UP.

I DO RECALL IT AND I WANT TO TURN BACK TO KATHY FOR A QUICK SECOND.

YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS.

I DON'T WANT TO EXPOSE YOU CERTAINLY, BUT IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE BLACK FACES OUT THERE IN PLACES LIKE NEW MEXICO WHERE IT IS 3% POPULATION HERE STATEWIDE AND YOU HAVE ALWAYS SAID HAVING SOMEONE WITH A BLACK FACE IN THIS SEAT HAS A LOT OF IMPORTANCE.

IF YOU CAN PICK UP ON THAT FOR A QUICK SECOND.

IT IS EMBARRASSING TO HEAR YOU TALK ABOUT ME IN THIS WAY BUT IT HAS TO BE TALKED ABOUT.

>> McGill: WELL, I THINK I WOULD PHRASE IT THAT I AM MAD BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHY DO YOU GET TO GO OUT AND HAVE ANOTHER NEW EXPERIENCE AND I HAVE TO KEEP DOING THE SAME THINGS I HAVE BEEN DOING.

AND I AM SAD BECAUSE I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN HERE HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR YOU SAYING, LET'S GET KATHY MCGILL ON.

AND MAYBE NOBODY WOULD HAVE SEEN THAT I HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS GOING ON IN NEW MEXICO POLITICS.

I THINK IT CHANGED A LOT OF THINGS.

I SEE PEOPLE AT THE GAS STATION COMING OUT OF RESTAURANTS, ARE YOU THAT CRAZY LADY THAT IS ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, AND YEP, THAT IS ME.

IT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT YOU AND IT IS SO IMPORTANT AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE PROUD TO SAY THERE IS A PERSON HERE WHO IS KIN FOLK AND WE ALSO THINK OF KIN FOLK.

HE UNDERSTANDS US AND IT IS LIKE FAMILY AND IT IS GOING TO BE REALLY, REALLY SAD TO SEE YOU GO.

I GOT TO SAY ONE MORE THING, I AM GLAD BECAUSE IN MY OTHER LIFE I HAVE BEEN A VOCALIST, RIGHT, YOU KNOW, AND SO IT BRINGS TO MIND THIS SONG THAT SAYS THERE WILL BE MANY OTHER NIGHTS LIKE THIS, I MIGHT BE STANDING HERE, SITTING HERE WITH SOMEONE NEW.

THERE WILL BE OTHER SONGS TO SING, ANOTHER FALL, ANOTHER SPRING, BUT THERE WILL NEVER EVER BE ANOTHER YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> Gene: WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN SUNG TO BY KATHY MCGILL, YOU HAVE BEEN SUNG TO.

THANK YOU KATHY.

IT IS VERY SWEET.

VERY SWEET.

I WANT TO THANK, AGAIN, MY MAN RADIO HOSE TJ TROUT, KATHY MCGILL, FOUNDER AND DIRECTOR OF THE NEW MEXICO BLACK LEADERSHIP COUNCIL, AND A VERY SPECIAL THANKS TO YOU, KATHY WIMMER, FORMER PRODUCER HERE ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS AND THE LINE.

I CAN'T THANK YOU ENOUGH FOR SPENDING YOUR TIME WITH ME TONIGHT TO LOOK BACK AT WHAT WE AS A TEAM HAVE ACCOMPLISHED DURING MY TIME HERE.

IT HAS BEEN A TEAM EFFORT.

I DO WANT TO THANK THEM PROPERLY IN A MINUTE BUT THERE IS SOMETHING I WOULD LIKE YOU TO KNOW.

THE JOY OF THIS POSITION WASN'T ABOUT BEING IN THIS SEAT.

IT WAS ABOUT BEING OUT AND ABOUT AND HAVING AMAZING CONVERSATIONS IN STORES, RESTAURANTS, PARKING LOTS WITH THE SUN BEATING DOWN, IT DIDN'T MATTER.

I ESPECIALLY APPRECIATED THE REVEAL THAT MANY FOLKS ENJOYED A GLASS OF WINE OR A BEER TO UNWIND THE WEEK WITH US.

IT WAS ALWAYS VERY SPECIAL TO HEAR THAT.

THAT IS THE IMPORTANT TAKE-AWAY FOR ME AFTER 16 YEARS HERE.

IT WAS A CONVERSATION, A LONG EXTENDED HASHING OUT OF THE TOPICS WE HAVE OFFERED UP EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT.

I LOVED EACH AND EVERY CONSULT.

SO MUCH HAS CHANGED IN THE MEDIA, THE CITY AND ALL OF OUR LIVES SO IT IS DEEPLY GRATIFYING TO ME WHEN YOUNG PEOPLE INTRODUCE THEMSELVES AND TELL ME THEY HAVE BEEN ON THE COUCH EVERY WEEK WATCHING ALONG WITH THEIR PARENTS.

THESE ARE THE KIND OF PEOPLE PERKS THAT MAKE THIS EXPERIENCE SPECIAL AND, YES, I HAVE SPOKEN WITH SOME BIG NAMED PEOPLE AT THIS TABLE BUT THOSE FOLKS COME AND GO.

WE, YOU AND I, REMAIN AFTER THEY LEAVE, AS IT SHOULD BE.

LET ME SAY FROM MY HEART, THANK YOU.

WE GET A LOT DONE HERE AND BY WE, I ALSO INCLUDE THE INCREDIBLE UNM STUDENT CREW I HAVE BEEN HONORED TO WORK WITH.

IT HAS BEEN SO LONG THE FIRST WAVE HAVE CAREERS, SPOUSES AND CHILDREN.

IT HAS BEEN AMAZING TO WATCH AND TO ALL THOSE STUDENTS I SAY THANK YOU.

I MIGHT ADD ALSO THEIR PARENTS.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME WONDERFUL MOMENTS WITH THEM OVER THE YEARS AND I VERY MUCH TOOK TO HEART THE DEEP PRIDE THEY EXPRESSED FROM THEIR CHILDREN WORKING HERE AND THAT HAS BEEN SPECIAL.

SO GLAD YOU GOT TO MEET KATHY WIMMER TONIGHT BECAUSE SHE REPRESENTS THE AMAZING CREW WE HAVE HAD OVER THE YEARS.

IT IS NOT EASY TO READ THE EBB AND FLOW OF A COMPLICATED CITY IN A STATE LIKE OURS, BUT KATHY AND EVERYONE INVOLVED DID IT BRILLIANTLY.

TO ALL THE PRODUCERS WHO HAVE BEEN A PART OF THIS JOURNEY, THANK YOU.

TO EVERY PANELIST FROM SHOW ONE TO TONIGHT, THANK YOU.

TO THE PBS NEWS HOUR, I CAN'T SAY ENOUGH THANKS FOR ALLOWING ME TO BE A PARTICIPANT, A HUGE HONOR.

TO THE ENTIRE MANAGEMENT STAFF, PAST AND PRESENT, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT AND YOUR BACKBONE WHEN THE ACTION GOT INTENSE, BUT ESPECIALLY YOUR WILLINGNESS TO LET ME GROW IN THIS SEAT.

WHEN I LOOK BACK AT HOW THIS ALL STARTED FOR ME, I'M REALIZING I AM SORT OF A CHILD, IF YOU WILL, OF A BYGONE ERA IN TELEVISION, THAT LATE, LATE, LATE, LATE NIGHT ONE-ON-ONE TALK SHOW.

TOM SNYDER COMES TO MIND IF YOU MIGHT RECALL HIM.

AND EVEN BEFORE THAT, THE OCCASIONAL VIEWING WHEN I WAS VERY YOUNG OF THE OLD DICK CAVETT SHOW WHICH, KIDS, RAN FIVE NIGHTS A WEEK LIVE FOR 90 MINUTES.

I LOVED THOSE SHOWS, ACTUALLY SOMEWHAT DEVOURED THEM.

IT IS HOW I LEARNED ABOUT THE WORLD AND STILL TO ME A DEEP LOVE FOR THE OPINION-BASED DISCUSSION SHOW.

THESE SHOWS ARE A GRAND TRADITION IN THE TELEVISION WORLD BECAUSE SO MUCH GETS REVEALED IN THE HASHING OUT OF NEWS STORIES, POLICY AND THE LIKE.

SO IT IS FOR THE LINE, THE SAME WAY.

THIS SHOW IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE A CRITICAL AND IMPORTANT SEGMENT OF OUR COLLECTIVE UNDERSTANDING OF OUR CITY AND OUR STATE.

WITH EXECUTIVE PRODUCE JEFF PROCTOR NOW FIRMLY AT THE HELM ALONG WITH LOU DIVIZIO AND TEAM MEMBER ANTONIO SANCHEZ, THIS SHOW IS HEADED FOR NEW HORIZONS.

AND I CAN'T WAIT TO HAVE MY OWN FRIDAY NIGHT HOIST FROM THE COUCH WHILE HOLDING A BEER BREWED IN SANTA FE.

NOW, I MENTIONED SANTA FE SPECIFICALLY TO COINCIDE WITH MY NEW POSITION.

I AM STARTING SOON WITH ANIMAL PROTECTION OF NEW MEXICO AS THEIR CHIEF PROGRAM AND POLICY OFFICER FOR ANIMALS IN SCIENCE.

IF YOU KNOW ME PERSONALLY, YOU VERY MUCH UNDERSTAND ANIMAL WELFARE IS NOT JUST A PASSION FOR ME, SOMETHING TO PUT MY HEAD DOWN INTO AND WORK AS HARD AS I DID HERE AT NEW MEXICO PBS.

SO TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO JOIN THE TEAM AT APNM, AN ORGANIZATION I HAVE A WORLD OF RESPECT FOR FROM WATCHING THEM CLOSELY FOR OVER 20 YEARS, THIS IS SOMETHING I COULD NOT SAY NO TO WHICH, MEANS I WILL STILL BE AROUND TO CORNER IN STORES TO TALK TO BUT IT WILL BE IN SANTA FE.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US FOR STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

I'LL BE WATCHING ALONG WITH YOU NEXT WEEK, IN FOCUS.