>>> TRUMP'S --APPEARS TO HAVE AN IMPACT.

TAKE THE CIVILIAN TOWN OF CHARLEROI.

HAITIAN IMMIGRANTS THERE HELPING TO REVITALIZE THAT TOWN.

BUT THEY ARE BEING TARGETED BY TRUMP'S LIES.

AS GEORGE PACKER PUTS IT, TRUMP HAS FOUND A SMALL, TENDER WILL IN A CRUCIAL SWING STATE AND STUCK A FINGER INSIDE.

SUMMIT MIGHT ALSO CALL IT MICRO- TARGETING.

--CALLED WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS .

>>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, GEORGE PACKER, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> YOU WENT TO CHARLEROI, PENNSYLVANIA.

I READ THIS PIECE YOU DID IN THE ATLANTIC.

IT IS SO EMBLEMATIC OF ALL OF THE THEMES WE ARE FACING.

TELL ME HOW YOU FOUND CHARLEROI AND WHY WAS IT SO EMBLEMATIC FOR YOU?

>> IT'S A SMALL, INDUSTRIAL TOWN SOUTH OF PITTSBURGH.

I SAW TWO STORIES THAT HAPPEN TO COINCIDE ALMOST EXACTLY IN TIME.

--MAKING GLASSWARE SINCE THE 1980s WAS GOING TO SHUT DOWN AND MOVE SOME OF ITS OPERATIONS TO OHIO.

300+ GOOD UNION JOBS ARE GOING TO DISAPPEAR FROM A TOWN THAT HAD BEEN LOSING INDUSTRIAL JOBS FOR 50 YEARS.

IT WAS ONE MORE BLOW TO A DECLINING INDUSTRIAL TOWN ON THE DASH COQUILLE RIVER DASH COQUILLE RIVER.

THE ONLY --THE OTHER CHARLEROI STORY IS THAT DONALD TRUMP LEARNED THAT HAITIAN IMMIGRANTS ARRIVED OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS.

TO A TOWN THAT REALLY --IT WAS A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT INCREASE.

HE BEGAN SAYING THAT CHARLEROI IS BEING DESTROYED BY THE HAITIANS.

THAT CRIME WAS RAMPANT, HOW DO YOU LIKE YOUR BEAUTIFUL CHARLEROI NOW.

I THOUGHT, THESE TWO THINGS ARE BOTH CRUCIAL ELEMENTS OF THE ELECTION.

ONE IS ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND DEMAGOGUERY.

THE OTHER IS ABOUT THE CLIENT.

-- I THOUGHT, I SHOULD GO THERE AND SEE WHAT IT'S LIKE.

>> LET'S START WITH THE ECONOMIC THING.

THERE WAS A PRIVATE EQUITY SAYING THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SHUTTING DOWN THE PYREX PLAN.

WAS SOME OF THE ANGER DIRECTED AT WALL STREET CORPORATE BILLIONAIRES?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WORKERS FROM THE FACTORY WHO ARE UNION MEMBERS IN THE LOCAL STEELWORKERS UNION.

THEY WERE FURIOUS.

THE CENTER LANE PARTNERS , AND A COMPANY CALLED ANCHOR HOCKING WHICH HAD RECENTLY BOUGHT THE FACTORY, UNDER SOMEWHAT HAZY CONDITIONS.

IT SEEMED THEY HAD BEEN PREVENTED FROM BUYING IT EARLIER BECAUSE OF ANTITRUST LAWS.

AND THEN, THE CELL WENT AHEAD AND IT WAS A BANKRUPTCY SALE.

IT WAS ALL VERY SHADOW WE.

SUDDENLY, THEY ARE ANNOUNCING IT WILL BE MOVED TO OHIO.

THAT PEOPLE WILL GET SEVERANCE TO MOVE TO OHIO IF THEY CAN DO THAT.

IT WAS A HUGE DISRUPTION.

I TALKED TO WORKERS WHO SAID , THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DEALING WITH.

THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT US.

THEY STRIP US FOR PARTS AND THEN THEY MOVE WHAT IS PROFITABLE AND CONVENIENT.

AND WE GET WHAT?

ONE WOMAN SAID $8000 IN SEVERANCE.

OR 35 YEARS OF HER LIFE WORKING IN THE FACTORY.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY BLAINE, -- BLAME, A PORTION.

AND TO CORPORATE GREED.

>> IS THAT SOMETHING THE DEMOCRATS USED TO BE ABLE TO EXPRESS MORE?

>> YES.

CHARLEROI WAS A DEMOCRATIC TOWN UNTIL ROUGHLY 2016.

THEY MAY HAVE BEGUN TO TURN RED EARLIER.

BUT 2016, I WAS TOLD, WAS A TURNING POINT.

WHEN TRUMP BEGAN TO ARTICULATE THE ANGER AT TRADED DEALS, IMMIGRATION, AND OTHER FORCES.

GLOBALIZATION, THAT PEOPLE THEY FELT WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DECLINE OF THE TOWN.

DEMOCRATS, AND UNIONS WERE THE VOICE OF WORKERS IN A PLACE LIKE THAT.

I WOULD SAY UNTIL THE 1990s WHEN IT NAFTA AND THE FORCES OF GLOBALIZATION, AND THE NEW DEMOCRATS, UNDER BILL CLINTON, REALLY LOST THE VOICE TO SPEAK FOR THOSE WORKERS.

STOPPED SEEING THEM, YOU COULD SAY.

THE WORKERS FELT MAYBE THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS.

THE DEMOCRATS LOST THEIR STANDING AS THE CHAMPIONS OF THE WORKING CLASS.

PEOPLE IN A PLACE LIKE CHARLEROI, WHO NO LONGER --WHO HERE INSTEAD THE PARTY IS BECOMING THE PARTY OF THE COLLEGE EDUCATED, THEY LOOK TO THE REPUBLICANS.

WHO MAY NOT BE DOING ANYTHING ECONOMICALLY TO HELP THEM, BUT AT LEAST GETTING THEM SCAPEGOATS AND CULTURE WAR ISSUES THAT THEY CAN BLAME FOR THEIR TROUBLES.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE REPUBLICANS OFFERING SCAPEGOATING.

WAS THAT WITH THE IMMIGRANT DISCUSSION WAS ABOUT?

ENTRANCE ATTACK ON THE IMMIGRANTS THAT HAVE COME TO CHARLEROI?

>> I THINK SO, BASICALLY.

WE HAVE TO BE HONEST.

WHEN A TOWN OF 4200 OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE WORKING- CLASS AND AGING PEOPLE FIND THERE ARE NOW 2000 NEW IMMIGRANTS , 50% OF THE POPULATION , AND A DISTRESSED TOWN --AND THEY ARE OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TENSIONS.

AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE COMPLAINTS I HEARD THAT THE SCHOOLS ARE OVERCROWDED, THE TEACHERS CANNOT PAY ATTENTION TO THE AMERICAN STUDENTS BECAUSE THEY HAVE TOO MUCH TRANSLATING TO DO, TOO MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF STUDENTS FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS TO TEACH.

THAT THE TRAFFIC LAWS ARE NOT BEING FOLLOWED BECAUSE THE IMMIGRANT DON'T KNOW WHICH ARE THE ONE WE STREETS.

AND THEY ARE BADLY MARKED, I'VE GOT TO SAY.

I WAS WARNED BY UNION MEMBER TO WATCH OUT FOR ONE OF THESE >> BUT HASN'T THE IMMIGRATION REVITALIZE THE ACCOUNT ME -- ECONOMY?

>> THESE ARE THE INEVITABLE GROWING PAINS OF THE RESURGENCE OF LIFE.

YES, IT IS COMING FROM ABROAD.

BUT THAT IS BECAUSE IT WAS NOT COMING FROM HERE.

THE TOWN WAS DYING.

AND SUDDENLY, EMPTY HOUSES ARE FILLING UP.

THERE IS A WHOLE NEW POPULATION OF TAXPAYERS WORKING IN RATHER LOW-WAGE JOBS THAT AMERICAN WORKERS BASICALLY DID NOT WANT.

LIKE IN FOOD PREPARATION FACTORIES.

THERE ARE BAKERIES AND MARKETS OPENING.

IS OUR PARTNERSHIP, THERE IS LIFE.

I WAS TOLD BY THE BOROUGH MANAGER AND BOROUGH COUNCIL PRESIDENT THAT THIS WAS A GREAT GIFT TO CHARLEROI TO FIND A YOUNGER PROBABLY ASIAN -- POPULATION COMING.

AND THE WORKERS AT THE PYREX COMPANY SAID THEY HAD A HALF- DOZEN HAITIAN WORKERS THERE AND THEY WERE THE HARDEST WORKING.

EVEN AS THE SAME PEOPLE WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT SCHOOLS AND TRAFFIC AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> ONE OF THE INTERESTING CHARACTERS IN YOUR PIECE IS THE COORDINATOR OF PATIENT COMMUNITY RELATIONS WHO CAME TO THE UNITED STATES IN THE OCEAN COAST GUARD.

>> THIS GUY -- WAS A REALLY INTERESTING MAN.

REALLY THOUGHTFUL.

AND OPTIMISTIC.

AS IMMIGRANTS OFTEN ARE.

HE SEES US IN A BETTER LIGHT THAN WE SEE OURSELVES.

HE TOLD ME HE ALWAYS LOVED THE PHRASE, E PLURIBUS UNUM , ON THE AMERICAN POINT.

HE SAID IT EXPRESS WHAT AMERICA IS ALL ABOUT.

HE SAID, IT MEANS PEOPLE FROM ALL DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS COME TOGETHER IN A UNITED COUNTRY.

WHICH MADE ME A LITTLE SAD.

BECAUSE WE ARE NOT A UNITED COUNTRY.

AND IT MAY TAKE SOMEONE LIKE THAT FROM HAITI TO SEE US IN A BECAUSE HE IS, FROM A COUNTRY BEING TORN APART BY VIOLENCE.

AND HE SEES US AS HAVING ALL OF THESE ADVANTAGES AND GOOD THINGS.

HE ACTUALLY REALLY LOVE CHARLEROI.

BUT THE AFFECT --EFFECT OF TRUMP 'S POINTING IT OUT AS A FAILED PLACE BECAUSE OF IMMIGRANTS, HE SAID, WAS HAVING A TERRIBLE EFFECT ON THE IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES WHO WERE KEEPING THEIR HEADS DOWN, STAYING INSIDE, EVEN THINKING ABOUT LEAVING CHARLEROI .

>> YOU TALK ABOUT HOW SOME DEMOCRATS ARE ABLE TO SPEAK TO THESE FRUSTRATIONS.

IT IS SOMETHING THE NATIONAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS NOT DONE ALL THAT WELL, APPARENTLY.

BUT ONE OF THE PEOPLE RUNNING FOR CONGRESS, -- IS ABLE TO TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING FROM CORPORATE GREED, TO BEING PROUNION.

AND TO MITIGATE SOME OF THE EFFECTS OF THE IMMIGRATION AND TALK.

TELL ME HOW THAT MESSAGE WORKS.

FROM THE DISTRICT JUST NORTH OF CHARLEROI.

THE PENNSYLVANIA 17th DISTRICT.

HE IS AN OLD-FASHIONED DEMOCRAT, YOU COULD SAY, HE'S A NAVY VETERAN, HE IS A LAWYER, VERY THOUGHTFUL.

BUT HE HAS STAKED HIS POLITICAL FATE IN A DISTRICT THAT IS QUITE EVEN, AND WHERE HE MIGHT NOT WIN RE-ELECTION.

IT'S ONE OF THOSE 50-50 DISTRICTS THAT HAVE BECOME SO RARE.

HE STICKS HIS FUTURE ON A RETURN TO A DEMOCRATIC MESSAGE, THAT WE ARE WITH THE WORKERS, WE DON'T WANT CORPORATIONS TO BE READING OUR TOWNS AND FACTORIES, STRIPPING THEM FOR ASSETS AND MOVING ON AND LEAVING BEHIND BROKEN LIVES.

IT IS A STRONG MESSAGE THAT HE TRIES TO HIT HOME , GOING DOOR TO DOOR IN SPEECHES, ET CETERA.

DISTRICT WAS THE CHEERING -- TRAIN DERAILMENT IN OHIO WHICH IS THE CROSS OF HIS DISTRICT.

SOME OF THE CHEMICAL GASES SPREAD INTO HIS AREA.

HE HAS MADE REGULATION OF RAIL FREIGHT ONE OF HIS SIGNATURE ISSUES.

AND HIS USE THAT ESSAY, REPUBLICAN PARTY, ARE YOU READY TO REGULATE RAIL FREIGHT ?

OR ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP IT DEREGULATED?

THAT IS A SORT OF ECONOMIC MESSAGE THAT DOES NOT REALLY ADDRESS IMMIGRATION HAD ON.

BUT ESSENTIALLY, IT TRIES TO SAY , THERE ARE LARGER REASONS FOR YOUR TROUBLE THEN THESE 2000 HARD-WORKING IMMIGRANTS IN YOUR TOWN.

THERE ARE MUCH BIGGER FORCES AT WORK.

LET'S PAY ATTENTION TO THEM, AND NOT SCAPEGOAT PEOPLE WHO ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO LIVE THE >> THE POPULACE MESSAGE OF TAKING ON THE RAIL FREIGHT AND RAIL COMPANIES , IN SOME WAY DOVETAILS -- DID HE WORK WITH JD VANCE ON THAT RAILWAY THING?

>> THERE IS A POPULIST STRAIN IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

JD VANCE IS MAYBE IT'S THE LEADING SPOKESMAN AND NOW IN CONGRESS.

HE WAS A COSPONSOR OF THAT RAIL FREIGHT REGULATION BILL.

I THINK IT IS CALLED THE RAIL SAFETY ACT OR SOMETHING.

JOSH HAWLEY OF MISSOURI IS ANOTHER.

IT IS SORT OF A SUBMERGED PART OF TRUMPISM .

TRUMP TALKS THAT WAY WHEN IT SUITS HIM.

BUT WHEN HE IS IN POWER, WHAT DOES HE DO?

HE CUTS TAXES FOR CORPORATIONS AND RICH PEOPLE.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS SERIOUS ABOUT ACTUALLY DEFENDING THE WORKING CLASS, OR IF THEY'RE USING IT AS A WAY TO TURN THEIR PARTY INTO A WORKING-CLASS PARTY, WHICH MANY REPUBLICANS WANT, WITHOUT EVER REALLY SHEDDING THE LEGACY OF THE SMALL GOVERNMENT, LOW TAX -- AND THE OTHER HALF OF THAT QUESTION IS WHETHER THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS CAPABLE OF RECLAIMING THAT MANTLE AFTER YEARS AND YEARS OF BECOMING THE PARTY OF THE PROFESSIONAL CLASS , WHICH DOES NOT REALLY SEE PLACES LIKE CHARLEROI AT ALL.

AND HAS FORGOTTEN ABOUT THEM.

>> THERE HAS BEEN A MAJOR SHIFT, WHICH IS SOMEWHAT DOCUMENTED, OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY MOVING MORE AND MORE TO BECOME THE PARTY OF URBAN, MORE AFFLUENT, MORE EDUCATED -- ELITE.

IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY PLAYING A POPULIST CARD , BEING FOR THE AVERAGE WORKING GUY.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS THAT A MAJOR SHIFT IN OUR POLITICS THAT WILL BE ONGOING?

>> I THINK IT'S BEEN HAPPENING FOR SEVERAL DECADES .

ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, WITH BILL CLINTON AND BARACK OBAMA.

IT WAS ANOTHER MERITOCRATIC THAT BELIEVED IN MERITOCRACY AND BELIEVE IN HIGHER EDUCATION.

ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, IT WAS A REVOLUTION WITH TRUMP.

IT HAPPEN IN 2016.

UNTIL THEN, IT WAS A REAGAN DOGMA THAT HELD THE PARTY IN ITS GRIP.

AND NOTHING ELSE COULD GET THROUGH.

NOW WE HAVE A REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT CLAIMS TO SPEAK OF FOR WORKERS, AND IT'S WINNING WORKING-CLASS VOTERS FROM ALL RACES.

THAT IS A BIG CHANGE THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST CYCLE AND HAS DEFIED THE NORMS OF BLACK VOTERS VOTING FOR A REPUBLICAN IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN.

IT IS HAPPENING, IT IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR DEMOCRATS.

AND LATINO VOTERS THE EVEN GREATER NUMBERS.

I BELIEVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS PREPARED TO USE GOVERNMENT .

THE ANTIGOVERNMENT GENE IS SO STRONG IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT TO USE GOVERNMENT, AND TO GOVERN WELL, RATHER THAN SIMPLY TEARING DOWN THE ADMINISTRATIVE STATE, TO BRING JOBS, AND MANUFACTURING, AND GREEN ENERGY JOBS TO PLACES LIKE CHARLEROI .

OR TO KEEP THE JOBS THAT ARE STILL THERE, AND TO SUPPORT UNIONS.

BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE VOICES OF WORKERS.

I AM VERY SKEPTICAL.

I THINK IT GOES AGAINST TOO MANY OF THE --TOO MANY OF ITS DONORS.

IN A WAY, THE WORKING CLASS IS UP FOR GRABS.

AND I DON'T SEE EITHER PARTY CLAIMING IT.

I DON'T SEE EITHER PARTY MAKING IT A TRUE ALIGNMENT, THAT WOULD LAST IT --FOR A GENERATION OR TWO.

WHICH PARTY CAN CLAIM TO SPEAK FOR PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR A LIVING AND MAKE AN HOURLY WAGE ?

RIGHT NOW TO GET UP IN THE AIR AND I DO NOT SEE EITHER PARTY MAKING ITS CLAIM IN A WAY THAT IS GOING TO LAST AS A REALIGNMENT.

>> YOU WROTE A VERY INFLUENTIAL BOOK CALLED THE UNWINDING ABOUT HOW AMERICA KIND OF AFRAID.

HOW IS THAT PLAYED OUT EVEN MORE AS YOU SAW IN CHARLEROI?

>> WE JUST KEEP ON UNWINDING.

THAT BOOK CAME OUT IN 2013.

TRUMP WAS A NEW YORK CELEBRITY AND TV STAR.

AND HE HAD BEGUN TO MAKE A NAME FOR HIMSELF AS A DENIER OF BARACK OBAMA'S CITIZENSHIP .

HE IS NOT IN THE BOOK.

BUT TRUMPISM IS IN THE BOOK.

THE LANDSCAPE THAT TRUMP WALKED OUT ONTO IS IN THE BOOK.

IT'S ABOUT COMMUNITY IS IN DECLINE, INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE FAILING TO SUPPORT THE PEOPLE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SUPPORT.

IT IS ABOUT LONELINESS.

HOW AMERICANS SEEM TO BE TRYING TO MAKE IT AGAINST THE ODDS WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM EITHER GOVERNMENT OR UNION, OR CHURCH, OR CORPORATION.

I WROTE IT IN PLACES SIMILAR TO CHARLOTTE --CHARLEROI LIKE YOUNGSTOWN, OHIO.

IT WAS NOT HARD TO FIND PEOPLE THAT SAID THE MIDDLE-CLASS IS GONE, THE GAME IS RIGGED FOR THE ELITES AND THE POWERFUL.

AND MY CHILDREN ARE NOT TO HAVE A GOOD AS LIFE AS I HAVE.

THOSE BECAME THE MANTRA I HEARD OVER AND OVER.

DID I HEAR THAT IT CHARLEROI?

THAT IS ALL I HEARD IN CHARLEROI.

OF COURSE, CHARLEROI IS NOT SEATTLE , OR WASHINGTON, OR AUSTIN, TEXAS.

THE COUNTRY IS REGIONALLY DIVIDING DRAMATICALLY INTO THE CHARLEROI 'S OF AMERICA AND THE AUSTIN'S OF AMERICA.

THAT IN ITSELF , TO ME, IS PART OF OUR UNWINDING.

WE DO NOT FEEL LIKE WE BELONG TO THE SAME COUNTRY.

PEOPLE OF THE SAME PARTY DO NOT FEEL LIKE THEY BELONG IN THE SAME COUNTRY.

AND THERE ARE ELITES IN POLITICS THAT HAVE FIGURE OUT THE BEST WAY TO MAKE MONEY IS BY FEEDING THAT.

NOT BY TRYING TO OVERCOME IT, BUT BY FEEDING IT, AND THAT IS WHAT THEY DO.

>> GEORGE PACKER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.