- [Female Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith is provided in part by HillCo partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, and by Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation.

- I'm Evan Smith.

He was the 43rd president of the United States.

His latest book, "Out of Many, One" tells the stories of immigrants and their contributions to our country.

Our conversation for this episode was co-produced and co-broadcast by South by Southwest and The Texas Tribune.

He's George W. Bush.

This is Overheard.

- [Smith] Let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly?

How have you avoided what has befallen other nations in Africa and-- you could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it.

You know, you saw a problem and over time, took it on and-- Let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak.

Are you gonna run for president?

I think I just got an F from you, actually.

This is "Overheard."

- Mr. President, welcome, it's good to see you, sir.

- Evan, good to see you again, thank you for having me.

- Very happy to have you, sir.

You've been largely out of the spotlight since you handed the reigns to Barack Obama in January 2009.

You've stayed out of policy fights and you've absolutely steered clear of political controversies.

A book about immigration is something of a return to the playing field.

Why write it and why now?

- Evan, I was deeply concerned about the rhetoric around immigration.

And it's been an issue that I've thought about for a long time.

As a matter of fact, when I was president, I tried to get the Congress to reform a broken immigration system.

And so I thought it was appropriate to basically say to American people, let's refocus our attention on immigration in a way that understands the contributions immigrants make to our society.

Not only do I think immigrants renew our soul and bring a spirit to our country, but also it helps our economy.

And I'm afraid those aspects have been lost during the debate.

- You understand, Mr. President, this will be taken in some quarters as a reaction to or as a rebuke of the last four years, specifically.

Is that how you intend this book to be taken?

- Actually, if I'd have been a more of a selfish guy, I would have tried to get the book out before Christmas of last year in order to enhance sales.

But I wanted to avoid the election season because one of the problems is immigration has become overly politicized.

And it's really a rebuke of Congress's inability to come together to get something done on immigration.

- Okay, so let's talk about the book specifically.

There are some policy principles articulated at the end and we'll get to those in a couple of minutes, Mr. President.

You're a very good salesman, a hype man, you have a good hype man's instinct, but in the book you mostly talk about the issue in subtle terms, through portraits, short profiles of immigrants accompanied by literal painted portraits.

You decided to talk about immigration by talking about immigrants.

You put a human face on it.

That was the way you decided to approach it.

- Yes, sir, that's right.

And as you mentioned I've become a painter and it's a passion of mine.

I love painting portraits.

Ken Mehlman came, my old campaign manager, and said, "You need to get involved with the immigration debate.

We need your voice."

And I said, "I don't wanna be out there bloviating.

On the other hand, the Bush Center is involved with the immigration debate."

And he said, "Why don't you paint the portraits of immigrants?"

And I said, "Okay, I will."

And, so this is a book of 43 painted portraits of people who are making contributions to our country in different ways.

- Right.

And these are in your words, in the book, first-generation immigrants who are still alive, or at least who were alive at the time you wrote the book-- - Yes.

- ...and painted their portraits.

So I wonder why these people, as opposed to others.

Every one is justified by his or her story.

But these could have been 43 other people with equally compelling stories.

So who chose- - No question, I did.

And I chose them for a variety of reasons.

I wanted to put some famous people in there.

I wanted to put people like Madeline Albright and Henry Kissinger in there, Arnold Schwarzenegger, but also I met Hamdi, the guy who started Chobani yogurt, was unbelievably impressed by his story.

Little Jenna, my daughter introduced me to Gilbert, who is runs Gilbert's Gazelles there in Austin.

And then of course we reviewed every story, and they're all very compelling.

And here's the common theme.

They made enormous sacrifices to get here.

They had help on getting here.

And once here they helped other people.

And you know, it's a very important thing for people to understand around our country, that contributions people make, oftentimes they're not heralded, but do make a difference in communities in which they live.

- I thought we would talk about a couple of the people, Mr. President, including a couple that you just mentioned as representative of the profiles in the book.

Madeline Albright is the first one that came to mind.

From Czechoslovakia, she was US Secretary of State under Bill Clinton, and she was often in the position of presiding over naturalization ceremonies in which refugees became citizens, and she is herself, a refugee.

- Well, she tells a beautiful story in there about, somebody approaching her after an immigration ceremony talking about how wonderful it was for a refugee to become a citizen.

She looked at and said, "I'm a refugee."

- "I'm a refugee," family fled the Nazis and fled communism to the US in 1948, right?

- That's right.

And interestingly enough, her father became a renowned professor and taught Condi Rice at the University of Denver.

- Yes, that's exactly right, he was Condi Rice's mentor.

And you know, she says, Mr. President, again, thematically this is consistent with the other stories.

She describes herself as a grateful American who believes in our capability to help others.

The gratitude of immigrants and their belief in paying it forward is a common theme noted in these books.

- The other thing about her that's really important is that she became the Secretary of State, which when you think about it is awesome.

I mean, a brilliant woman, who worked hard, raised her family and became Secretary of State.

- She really contributed, didn't she?

That is something.

- Well, it also speaks volumes about our country.

The ability to assimilate and encourage someone and then reward that person with the high office.

- Well, and again another person who feels fits the same bill, Mr. President, is Arnold Schwarzenegger, who you mentioned.

Who came from Austria, arrives in the country in 1968 in California, to train for the Mr. Universe pageant.

He goes on to become an actor, he runs for governor of California.

Again, an immigrant who rises to that point.

He's often talked about as somebody who, if the law allowed it, could have run for president.

And he thinks about our country as a beacon of opportunity.

The thing I loved about this piece about Arnold was, he said, "Every time I accomplish one dream, another begins."

It's about the American dream, Mr. President, right?

- That's right, yeah.

This guy, I've painted him in, as you notice in the book, a strange portrait of him wearing a Uncle Sam hat and a big smile.

And as you said, this was one of the proudest days of his life.

And he wanted me to paint him like he dressed up there at the swearing in ceremony.

But yeah, he's a unique guy in the sense that he had dreams, and he overcame obstacles to achieving those dreams.

He, by the way, is a big proponent of reforming the immigration system.

- Right, and was when he was in office, he's actually talked about this for quite a long time.

So it's fitting that he's in this book.

Mr. President, two people who are not well-known to the public, I mean obviously Secretary Albright, Governor Schwarzenegger, people know.

Paola Rendon, who is, Rendon was a somebody in the book who I thought was quite interesting.

One of the first stories you tell from Cuernavaca, Mexico, very important to you personally.

Worked for your family from 1959, until just a couple of years ago, when she was 95 years old, and she passed away last year.

Talk about a Paola Rendon, please.

- Yeah, I was the person that opened the door there in Houston to welcome her to our house in 1959, I was 13.

And a woman in the middle of this rainstorm, huddled, nervous, scared, and she ends up becoming our second mother.

And she, I watched her work incredibly hard, save money, brought her three children from Mexico to the United States.

They became citizens.

And then when she passed away, I didn't go to the funeral but Marvin, Neil and Dorothy went, two of my brothers and my sister.

And the whole family was there, great grandchildren graduating from college.

I mean, it's a remarkable story.

And it opened my eyes to the importance of treating immigrants with respect and dignity.

- You say in this book that that the experience of Paola Rendon in your family taught you what for immigrants, it means to work hard and to sacrifice for your family.

As you said, she brought her kids over.

The best story in the Paola Rendon profile, I thought, was that she learned to watch English from watching reruns of "Bonanza" and "Gunsmoke" with your brother.

- Yeah, with Marvin.

She was plenty tough, she was plenty tough.

I mean, she was a disciplinarian.

And, you know, as Darla said in the book, that was a very difficult funeral for her to go to.

She was incredibly sad when mom died, of course, but very sad when Paola died.

The immigrant stories in America often are about somebody who's come makes enormous sacrifices so their families can realize, the blessings of this country.

And there's a classic example of someone working incredibly hard to give her children, her grandchildren and her great grandchildren, a chance to achieve dreams.

- But of course it is her experience, Mr. President, that is often criticized as something wrong with the immigration system.

Somebody crosses over from Mexico, they come here because they wanna make a better life for themselves and their family.

But this has become a flash point in our politics.

The Paola Rendon story has been used in the inverse to make the case against immigration.

Has it not?

- Yeah, it has.

And I used to say, when I was governor, you probably forgot this memorable line, but family values don't stop at the Rio Grande River.

In other words, people coming across to work on jobs that need to be done to provide for their families.

And Paolo is one such person.

Of course she didn't sneak in, she came on on a work visa- - On a work visa, indeed, indeed.

And Mr. President, you mentioned Gilbert Tuhabonye from Burundi in Africa who fled the Hutu attacks on his Tutsis...

They set his high school building on fire, he was an athlete, a runner.

- Right.

- And he comes to America in 1996 to train for the Olympics in Atlanta.

Ultimately, he enrolls at Abilene Christian University, comes to Austin, gets connected with the running community here, and starts Gilbert's Gazelles, as you mentioned, which is one of the foremost running clubs, and your daughter, Jenna, was in that club.

Was she not?

- Yeah, she was a gazelle.

And, she brought Gilbert to my attention.

This guy went through unspeakable dangers to get here.

And, 30% of his body was burned when the Hutus burnt a classroom with the doors locked of Tutsi kids.

And he had a dream, he achieved it, he married his sweetheart from Burundi, and he's a contributing citizen.

He now raises money to help provide clean water in different places in Africa.

But Gilbert is an incredible inspiration.

And so my young girl, got to see Gilbert, and as I said in there, it was a good way to keep her from partying too much.

Because she had to get up and run with Gilbert in the morning.

But she came back all enthused about Gilbert.

And the fact that he was able to influence Jenna, and a lot of other people in such a positive way, really struck me.

- Well, and he talks in his profile to you, told you about the privileges and responsibilities of becoming an American.

And as you say, he's decided to become a philanthropist and give back himself.

Again, the theme here is contributing and then paying it forward.

And I think you cannot read these profiles without appreciating those two crucial elements to immigration.

Now, Mr. President, as I alluded to in the Paola Rendon conversation, what we have seen in recent years is a demonizing of immigrants as the "other"-- - Yeah.

- ...of immigration as a drag on our economy and a threat to our security.

What do you think of that?

- I disagree with that.

I think that we're gonna need willing workers to do jobs that are needed in America, and that secondly, I do... And so therefore our economy, look at Texas, I mean, we're booming, and yet they're still looking for workers and there are people willing to do the work that Americans need to be done.

And therefore there needs to be a system that recognizes that.

And right now, the worker visas, it's an antiquated system.

Evan, you're right, I talk about these stories, but at the back of the book I explain how complicated the whole process is.

Which means, that there needs to be an overhaul, which means that we need to get politics out of the system and get sober-minded people focusing on, A, what's best for our economy, B, what's best for our country.

And, to me that's- - Mr. President, I'm old enough to remember when you attempted to do this, as you said at the beginning.

You attempted, you know, less than 15 years ago, to try to get this done and it didn't get done.

You know, that taking the politics out of immigration is like taking the calories out of fried chicken.

You know how hard it is, Mr. President.

- I'd like to be able to do that, frankly, 'cause I like fried chicken, but yeah, it's very hard.

And therefore, but that's not to say one shouldn't try.

And at the Bush Center, we're focused on this issue a lot and we're working with different groups that believe this is an important measure for the future of our country.

And, can it get done?

I don't know.

I wasn't afraid to try in 2006, I'm not afraid to lend my voice in a unique way here in 2021.

- So, the principles outlined in the back of the book, which are really the Bush Institute's principles.

But because it's your book, your name's on it, I'm gonna associate those principles with you, Mr. President-- - Please do.

- ...call for a number of different ways to think about the issue, I wanna ask you just about a couple.

You say we need secure borders.

Does that mean that you think we need a border wall?

We spent a lot of time over the last four years in Texas talking about a border wall.

Do we need a border wall?

Yes or no?

- I think we need all the above.

I think we need electronics, I think we need manpower.

I think we got to understand who is coming.

But one of the things that will help enforce our borders to have a worker visas that match the needs of our economy so people don't have to sneak in to work.

And that in itself is part of the security.

Look, Americans want secure borders, but they gotta understand it's a complicated task, and therefore all the above is gonna be necessary.

- You also called, Mr. President, in this book, for a path to citizenship, as I read it, for those here unlawfully, pay a fine, pay back taxes, learn English, provide your work history, give people a chance to get right with the law.

You know that that's a controversial position in some quarters, particularly in the quarters that are your party.

Right?

- (laughing) Yeah, well it was part of my plan in '06, by the way.

I think the idea of trying to convince the American people that somehow people that have been here for a long time and had been good citizens and pay their taxes are voluntarily gonna go home.

Many of them even don't even have a home to go home to, is a political pipe dream.

And therefore rather than ignore the situation, I think we got to address it.

And I do believe there needs to be a path to citizenship.

I think Congress is gonna have to be mindful to make sure that those who are undocumented don't get to jump ahead of the line of those who are documented and have played by the rules.

But nevertheless, I think it's in our nation's interest to bring people out of the shadows.

- Mr. President, we've known each other for a long time.

You know that I'm not just gonna ask you about the book today, I have other things I wanna ask you.

And so I'm gonna use the time we have left to ask some other questions.

Mr. President, tell me what you were doing and what you were thinking on January 6th.

- I was disgusted.

I can't remember what I was doing, but I remember feeling a sense of, I was sick to my stomach, and to see our nation's Capitol being stormed by hostile forces.

And it really disturbed me to the point where I did put out a statement, and I'm still disturbed when I think about it.

It undermines rule of law and the ability to express yourself in peaceful ways in the public square.

This was an expression that was not peaceful.

- Right.

Mr. President, by the time people see this conversation, it will be more than four months since election day.

And yet there are still an alarmingly high number of people who don't have confidence in the election result, who believe the election was stolen.

Three out of four self-identified Republicans.

One out of three self-identified independents, according to a Quinnipiac poll believed there was widespread fraud in the election.

You're one of only 46 people to occupy the most powerful office in the world.

You're one of only five former living presidents.

And you are a lifelong Republican.

You and your family have been stalwarts in the party.

Your point of view matters.

I need to ask you directly and simply, do you believe the election was legitimately conducted, or if there is any taint whatsoever to the outcome?

- I think the election, all elections have some kind of improprieties.

I think this election, the results of this election though, were confirmed when Joe Biden got inaugurated as president.

- Well, Mr. President, with respect, you didn't answer the question, was the election stolen or not?

- No.

- No?

Okay, well, that's an important thing to say and I appreciate the fact that you were willing to say it, sir.

Thank you.

You know, it seemed Mr. President, over the last few months or longer that our democracy was at peril, was hanging by a thread.

Looking back, how concerned have you been about the health of our democracy?

And looking ahead, how concerned are you?

- Yeah, I thought you were going to say hanging by a chad.

Anyway, I am, uh, you know, I thought, first of all, the turnouts in 2018 and 2020 were huge.

In other words, it shows the vibrancy of democracy.

That's a telltale sign that people wanna get engaged in the system and that they were willing to go vote.

And so I liked that aspect of it.

Politics has always been rough, Evan.

And right now we're at a period of time, though, when there's a lot of anger in the system, which then causes people to worry about the future of our democracy.

I think it's gonna eventually work its way out of the system.

History of the United States has showed these populous movements begin to fritter over time.

And so I'm optimistic about democracy.

For a while I was worried about it because people started saying, "Democracy doesn't work, democracy is bad, democracy is this, democracy is that."

Like particularly amongst some of the kids.

And yet the evidence is such that people take democracy seriously.

And-- - I guess the question, Mr. President, is did you believe that our own government in any way was putting our democracy at risk?

- No, I think what's putting democracy at risk is the capacity of people to get on the internet and spread of all kinds of stuff.

But democracy checks and balances work.

It's a balanced system, and the courts work, the legislative process needs a little work, particularly like on immigration reform, but it's, no, I thought the system worked fine.

- A few weeks ago, Mr. President, President Biden said he'd received calls since inauguration day from every former president, but one, I assume you're not the one.

- No, I called him on election day.

- You did call.

Could you tell us what advice you gave him or at least tell us what the most important takeaway from your own experience in the job was as he settles in?

What's the most important bit of advice you have for him?

- That there'll be a lot of critics and just do what you think is right.

And you shouldn't tailor a policy based upon the internet noise or the editorials.

He ought to surround himself with a good team, listen to them and make decisions in a crisp way.

And you know, he's an experienced guy, and, I had a good conversation with him.

I said, "Anything I can do to help, if I feel comfortable with it, let me know."

And, so he's off to a good start, it looks like.

And hopefully this anger will begin to work its way out of the system.

- All right, Mr. President, we just have a few seconds left.

I think we'll go just a little bit longer to give you a chance to answer this.

And this is the interviewer's prerogative.

I wanna ask you about baseball, Mr. President.

That was the first-- - What's your favorite team, Evan?

- I don't wanna say publicly what my favorite team is, Mr. President, because-- - Wait a minute, wait a minute.

I'm asking you, I wanna do what you did to me.

Simple answer.

- I'm the interviewer, Mr. President.

The topic of the first interview I ever did with you 28 years ago, before you ran for governor, when you were still co-owner of the Rangers was baseball.

So I'm gonna come back around to that, 'cause I know you're still a big fan and so am I.

With everything that divides us in this country, immigration and all the rest, can we agree that putting a runner on second base at the start of extra innings is a terrible idea.

- Yes.

We can.

- Would you please tell Rob Manfred and somebody in Major League Baseball that this is just ruining the game?

I mean, isn't it like- - I'm like you, I'm an old curmudgeon when it comes to baseball.

Like you, I understand that baseball is a beautiful sport because you can compare the old with the new, and therefore the rules need to be pretty consistent.

The question I thought you're gonna ask is, should the National League have it designated hitter?

- Oh, the old system, what do you think about that?

- You know, I'm ambivalent.

I think, I think the players ought to be for it because it extends the playing life of some of their older players.

I don't know what the politics are inside baseball now.

I know this, I'm looking forward to opening day.

I'm proud to talk about being a mighty Rangers fan.

It could be a tough year for us, Evan.

It's, (laughs) the awful word, "rebuilding" as has come up here which basically says, "Wait for a couple of seasons."

- Well, there are some people that think politics is in a rebuilding year as well, Mr. President.

- It could be.

- That's all the time we have.

This is all the time we have, unfortunately, I wanted to say again to you how much I appreciate you joining us, and congratulations on the book, good luck with it.

And look to see you around Texas or somewhere else sometime soon.

- Thank you, Evan, but by the way, every dime, the profits from this book, not everyone, it got to pay for some of the cost of put it out.

But the profits go to groups that have helped immigrants settle in our country.

- Well, that's good to know.

- And the groups mentioned.

Anyway, good luck to you, thank you very much for having me.

I remember when I used to be angered at South by Southwest when it made so much noise outside the governor's mansion.

But those were the old days, you know.

- Those were the days, Mr. President, that's exactly right.

Okay, well, we'll see you soon.

Thank you, very much, bye-bye.

- [Narrator] We'd love to have you join us in the studio.

Visit our website at klru.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, Q&A's with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes.

(gentle serene music) - [Narrator] Funding for Overheard with Evan Smith is provided in part by HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, and by Laura and John Beckworth, Hobby Family Foundation.

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