(gentle majestic music) - Welcome, everyone, to the Penny Stamps Distinguished Speaker Series.

(crowd applauding) Welcome, everyone, to the Penny Stamps Distinguished Speaker Series.

My name is Christina Hamilton, the series director.

(crowd cheering and applauding) Oh my gosh, you guys are the best crowd ever.

Today we finally are so thrilled to present Gigi's Meets Aunt Charlie's.

(crowd cheering) This is truly a tale of drag scenes and queens making a cross-country connection, San Francisco to Detroit.

We are thrilled to finally have this program in the house.

Postponed from last January due to Omicron, originally inspired by the Institute for the Humanities Exhibition of James Hoskins Project, "Beautiful by Night," Thank you Amanda Krugliak.

- [Audience] Yeah!

- Yeah!

Hopefully, many of you took that in.

And you'll get to see a taste of it today as well.

Today presents really a very rare, unique coming together of these legendary queens from two notorious clubs, for those not in the know, from the gritty epicenters of Detroit and San Francisco.

Aunt Charlie's in San Francisco, and Detroit, our very own Gigi's Cabaret, home of the longest bar title in the United States of America.

(crowd cheering and applauding) And I do wanna thank our partners for their support today, Institute for the Humanities, the University of Michigan Museum of Art, the Spectrum Center, Detroit Public Television, and Michigan Radio, 91.7 FM.

Please do remember to turn off your cell phones and forget you have them.

One note, we are not going to have a regular Q&A today as we will devote all of our time to the stage program.

And for those of you who haven't had enough, the Michigan Theater is working with us and they're providing you something to leave to.

At 7:30 at the State Theater, you can see "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert."

(crowd cheering) Yes!

This evening's festivities are going to be hosted by a very dear friend to many of you here in the audience today, and a beloved Ann Arbor persona, Ben Johnson.

(crowd cheering applauding) We're very happy to see Ben making his return to us today.

He is currently the arts and culture manager for the city of Beverly Hills in Los Angeles after a recent stint.

Previous to that, he was a director of performing arts for the city of Los Angeles.

But in a previous incarnation, Ben was our very own director of education and audience development, the first in that role, I must add, at the University Musical Society right here in Ann Arbor from 1996 to 2008.

(crowd applauding) Yes.

And develop, he did, leading community engagement efforts with Detroit arts organizations, Detroit public schools, all manner of neighborhoods, districts, associations, cliques and klatches, Ben really brought it all together during his time here with us.

These communities came to know Ben as someone they could trust to listen and do the right thing by them.

And during his years here, Ben steeped himself in Detroit history, and it is through this lens which he centers drag heritage and history as an important and unique cultural contribution to the vitality of Michigan and performing arts history.

So when I heard this is now, gosh, it must be a year and a half ago, I don't know.

More than that, maybe.

Amanda Krugliak at the Institute for Humanities planning the original "Beautiful By Night" exhibition, I immediately knew this was the moment to connect the queens between Detroit and San Francisco with these iconic clubs, and that Ben Johnson was the one to bring this story together.

And just everybody remember tonight, this is our thrive season.

It's our moment to thrive.

Our hope is alive.

We can dissolve borders of gender, race, religion, age, anything that divides us and find the common experience of being a human together.

And now, please welcome, (crowd applauding) the return of one of Ann Arbor's prodigal sons, Ben Johnson.

(crowd applauding and cheering) - Hello, everybody.

It's a real treat and honor and very special time to be back, and so I can't see one person out there.

But I do wanna thank Christina in the University of Michigan Stamps School of Art & Design for this incredible opportunity.

Such an honor to be back in Ann Arbor and at the Michigan Theater.

I wanna give a shout out to all my old work family and friends at the University Musical Society.

is Ken Fisher in the house somewhere?

Does everybody know Ken Fisher?

Okay, I think I heard that.

I also too wanted to welcome everyone who's here.

I'm so glad you're here.

I can't see anybody, but I did see the monitor, and there's a full house.

And we are all here to recognize and celebrate four living legends within the performing arts field who are community activists and entertainers.

We originally had five.

Olivia Hart could not make it from San Francisco, but we do have one from San Francisco to hold it down.

But they have, through sheer perseverance, creativity, humor, and love have fostered safe spaces for the spectacular celebrations of queer joy in this world that's heaving with discrimination and homophobia.

But tonight, we celebrate these living legends.

Each one represents a lifetime performance awards and history.

And so I'm gonna introduce them, and then we'll begin.

So from San Francisco, we have Donna Personna who's featured in a new film called... Well, featured in the film, "Beautiful By Night", and the upcoming film, "Donna."

She was the 2019 Grand Marshall of the San Francisco Pride Parade and was instrumental in the designation of the first transgender district in San Francisco and in the country and is an icon in that community and around the world.

We also have Lady T Tempest from Detroit.

Lady T performed her first number in 1976, which was "Don't Leave Me This Way."

She has a history of winning show titles.

Her favorites were Miss Gigi's and Miss Gigi's Classic and a Lifetime Achievement Award in 2015.

She is the drag mother to Nickki Stevens and is proud to be called ma, mom, and granny.

Maxi Chanel (crowd cheering) started at the Nectarine Ballroom in 1991 and is the founder of our own House of Chanel, which has given space to young drag artists for over 30 years here in Ann Arbor and at Slanti.

She has won every award in Michigan and has performed all over the country and uses her platform to raise money at every show for local nonprofits.

And then finally, Nickki Stevens.

(crowd applauding) Nickki has been performing... She has been performing for 35 years and has been the show director at Gigi's Cabaret for the entire time, which has the longest-running and most awarded female impersonation review in the country.

She is the most awarded female impersonator in Michigan history and won Michigan's Entertainer of the Year 14 times, including the Spirit of Detroit Award by Mayor Dennis Archer.

Please help me welcome, give a warm Michigan welcome to these legends of drag.

Thank you very much for coming.

(crowd applauding and cheering) (upbeat music) (crowd cheering) ♪ I call you when I need you ♪ ♪ My heart's on fire ♪ ♪ You come to me come ♪ to me wild and wild ♪ ♪ You come to me give ♪ me everything I need ♪ ♪ Give me a lifetime of ♪ promises and a world of dreams ♪ ♪ Speak a language of love ♪ like you know what it means ♪ (crowd laughing) - [Audience] What happened?

♪ Mmm and it can't be wrong ♪ ♪ Take my heart and make it strong baby ♪ ♪ You're simply the best ♪ ♪ Better than all the rest ♪ ♪ Better than anyone ♪ ♪ Anyone I've ever met ♪ ♪ I'm stuck on your heart ♪ ♪ I hang on every word you say ♪ ♪ Tear us apart ♪ ♪ Baby I would rather be dead ♪ ♪ In your heart I see the star ♪ of every night and every day ♪ ♪ In your eyes I get ♪ lost I get washed away ♪ ♪ Just as long as I'm here in your arms ♪ ♪ I could be in no better place ♪ ♪ You're simply the best ♪ ♪ Better than all the rest ♪ ♪ Better than anyone ♪ ♪ Anyone I've ever met ♪ ♪ Ooh I'm stuck on your heart ♪ ♪ I hang on every word you say ♪ ♪ Don't tear us apart no no no ♪ ♪ Baby I would rather be dead ♪ ♪ Each time you leave me ♪ I start losing control ♪ ♪ You're walking away with ♪ my heart and my soul ♪ ♪ I can feel you even when I'm alone ♪ ♪ Oh baby don't let go ♪ ♪ Ooh you're the best ooh ♪ ♪ Better than all the rest ♪ ♪ Better than anyone ♪ ♪ Anyone I've ever met ♪ ♪ Ooh I'm stuck on your heart ♪ ♪ I hang on every word you say ♪ ♪ Don't tear us apart no no ♪ ♪ Baby I would rather be dead ♪ ♪ You're the best ♪ ♪ Ooh you're simply the best ♪ ♪ Better than all the rest ♪ ♪ Better than anyone ♪ ♪ Anyone I've ever met ♪ ♪ I'm stuck on your heart baby ♪ ♪ I hang on every word you say ♪ ♪ Don't tear us apart no no ♪ ♪ Baby I would rather be dead ♪ ♪ Oh you're the best ♪ ♪ You're better than all the rest ♪ ♪ Better than anyone ♪ ♪ Anyone I've ever met ♪ ♪ Ooh you're the best ♪ (crowd cheering and applauding) (crowd cheering) - Thank you, ladies.

- [Audience] (indistinct) (Ben and crowd laughing) - So we have a lab territory to cover right now, so I'm gonna talk little fast, if you don't mind.

So before we get started, I'd be greatly remiss if I did not recognize one of the two great heroes of gay liberation in Michigan.

I wanna dedicate this presentation to the pioneering queer activist for LGBTQAI2S+ rights in Michigan, Jim Toy.

(crowd cheering and applauding) Jim Toy, who is Chinese American, was the founding member of the Detroit Gay Liberation Front in 1970 and Ann Arbor Gay Liberation Front in 1971, who started the Gay Liberation Front in this audience and was the founder of what would become Spectrum Center here at the university, as well as many other important significant contributions to establishing and protecting the rights of the LGBTQ community in our region.

He died on January 1st, 2021 at the age of 91.

I'm sure he would be here tonight if he could, and he would be thrilled to know that this was happening, and his spirit is with us tonight.

(crowd cheering and applauding) And in the spirit of knowing your own history and the relationship to this lecture, it was Jim Toy, who on September 16th, 1972, almost 50 years ago to the day, he organized 60 demonstrators to picket the infamous gay bar in Ann Arbor called The Flame to protest the exclusion of trans persons and drag queens.

So right here in Ann Arbor, he had to picket to let drag queens and trans people into the gay bar.

(crowd applauding) So we celebrate our artist night and think about how, right here in Ann Arbor, queens had to fight for the right to be welcomed into queer space and they still do.

So, Gigi's Meets Aunt Charlie's.

Tonight, I wanna tell you about the origin story of tonight's Penny Stamps' program, legendary drag queens from two historic performance venues in California and Michigan.

I received a call from the inimitable Christina Hamilton to invite me to interview these highly recognized drag artists who have spent their entire careers performing at these notorious and gritty bars.

Our first bar we're gonna talk about is Aunt Charlie's.

And just to give us the context and center us in the location, in the Tenderloin District of San Francisco, the inspiration for this interview is to be centered on the documentary, as she said, of "Beautiful By Night" by James Hoskins, which is a film that follows three elderly drag queens over the course of one evening at Aunt Charlie's as they perform their nightly rituals of transformation and it offers a behind the scenes view of a life lived in queer space.

It features three extraordinary human beings.

Colette Lagrand, Donna Personna, who's here tonight, and Olivia Hart.

I want to give a special shout out to James Hoskins who helped with the development of this lecture and his art was the inspiration.

And how many people have been to Aunt Charlie's?

I can't see you, but I heard a few.

Well, you gotta make the pilgrimage.

So Aunt Charlie's is really important queer space in the consciousness of San Francisco history.

It's the last gay bar in this part of San Francisco in the Tenderloin District.

If you study queer life, you most undoubtedly make a pilgrimage to San Francisco, and then all late night roads lead Aunt Charlie's, and it is literally one of the last vestiges of queer SF and a vestige, as we know, is being pummeled with the forces of gentrification.

It was saved during COVID with a GoFundMe campaign, but holding it down were these three artists who are performing, and so let's watch a little bit of "Beautiful By Night".

(audience faintly speaking) (footsteps pattering) (performer faintly speaking) - And I did my face up and walked out and all the GI's looked at me.

(plane buzzing) Practically all my life, I've been around people who do theater.

What I did was I was a gopher and did everything I could but didn't ever get in spotlight or perform.

I was mortified that I thought performers when they were out there, they did something perfectly.

And, you know, I build myself, I say that I'm a mess.

I never truly like anything I do.

I really don't.

I'm very critical, so I wouldn't try.

Not one person, no one ever said, don't go out there, or you can't do this.

It was only me, and that's one thing that I want to get out to the world.

That, don't limit yourself.

Try it.

- Don't mind this street, you passed the show.

(footsteps thumping) (crowd cheering) - I want track number nine on that one.

(upbeat music) Yeah, right, hottie, you need to share tonight.

(group laughing) - [Speaker] You could have a taste.

His name is Pauline.

- Pauline.

(group laughing) - [Speaker] His name is Delicate.

- Oh!

Don't worry, I won't damage it.

Maybe a little bent after I'm done.

(group laughing) - I only have like four.

- Yes, honey, can you... - I want every last one of them.

(car engine revving) (gentle jazz music) ♪ It's got to happen ♪ ♪ Happen sometime ♪ ♪ Maybe this time I'll win ♪ ♪ Everybody loves a winner ♪ ♪ That's why they are lovely ♪ ♪ Lady Peaceful Lady Happy ♪ ♪ That's what I long to be ♪ ♪ What are we gonna do ♪ if we lose that fire ♪ (crowd cheering and whistling) ♪ Inside and out ♪ ♪ Inside and out ♪ ♪ Inside and out ♪ ♪ Inside and out ♪ (footsteps thumping) (buss engine revving) (car engine revving) (turn signal clicking) (metal clacking) (metal creaking) (keys jingling) (paper crackling) (heavy breathing) (door creaking) (vehicles humming) (crowd applauding) - Thank you for this film.

So when Christina called me for this interview, I enthusiastically said yes, but not only did I want to amplify this really important history, these artists at Aunt Charlie's, I also wanted to ensure that the parallel artists who were also sustaining and contributing to the same legacy and creative economy with the history of artists located here in Michigan and was centered on Gigi's Cabaret.

So, quick backstory, when I was at the University Musical Society, there was this weird tension between the city of Ann Arbor and Detroit.

And no one would seem to be going to Detroit, and Detroiters weren't coming to Ann Arbor.

So it seemed to be there was a real cultural divide, but I was always like, why isn't everybody going down to the fabulousness of Detroit?

And right off of Highway 39 was this magical, cultural space called Gigi's Cabaret.

And who's been?

- Ey!

(crowd cheering) - Well, if you haven't been, you gotta make the pilgrimage.

And as someone who studies performing arts for a living, and when I was working at the University Musical Society and traveling all over the world and going to festivals and looking at artists, it was always struck me about the unique aesthetic that was the DNA of what it meant to be a performer in the city of Detroit.

In Detroit, in my mind, it was different.

It was more performative as if the artists are literally performing for their lives, but also adding juicy doses of talent, punk, edge, humor and joy.

But I noticed that also, if you are an artist in Detroit, much like the Tenderloin, and if you've decided to stay in Detroit, that means you've got nothing to lose.

Therefore, you have everything to give, and this is reflective in the kind of visual art that comes from Detroit music that's produced in Detroit, and it's the same for drag.

We were lucky to get a little behind the scenes look at Gigi's during COVID so we wanted to give you a little tour that is hosted by Nickki.

So this is once in a lifetime viewing here.

So here we are in Detroit, right here, to center you, and there's Gigi's.

And here we go.

Tour of Gigi's.

(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to Gigi's Cabaret, and Cabaret, I should say.

My name is Nickki Stevens, and I'm gonna show you around the longest-running, the most awarded female impersonation review in Michigan history.

(upbeat music) Follow me.

Come on down to the infamous Gigi's Cabaret room.

Our shows are on Saturday evenings.

Doors open at 8:30 PM.

Show times are 10:00 PM, 11:00 PM and 1:00 AM.

Reservations are highly suggested.

It's $10 per person, 21 and up, $15 per person under 21.

Here's the cabaret room.

We seat over 140 people and are usually close to capacity each and every Saturday night.

I've been your hostess and emcee here at Gigi's Cabaret for over 30 years and known as the Peroxide Piranha or the Blonde Bombshell.

Here's the bar where you can get any kind of libation from non-alcoholic, to all the booze you can drink.

And we suggest you drink because the more you drink, the better I look.

Back here we do have concession area, just like you would find in a movie theater, with candy, chips, nachos, popcorn, hot pretzels, souvenirs, all the t-shirts and merchandise that you could ever hope to own, and jewelry made by my mother, Purple Angel, and something to take home and remember your night and experience here at Gigi's Cabaret, and hope to see you soon.

Right now we have set up for the pageants this weekend, which is the our 48th annual MISS Gigi's Pageants.

It is the longest-running gay bar title in the nation.

And this table over here is to remember the past Miss Gigi's that have passed away.

And once a Miss Gigi's, always a Miss Gigi's, so we always like to recognize them and memorialize them each and every year.

We lost Jennifer Holiday Chanel this year back in November, so she's the newest to join the party elsewhere, and I know that they're all having a great time.

But here, this is where you'll see me and you have seen me for the past 30 years, coming out to meet and greet each and every one of you, get to know you, ask who's new, who's never been here before, make fun of you, where you live, what you do, what you look like, what you're wearing, and introducing each and every one of my troll ups that I have on a house cast, as well as special guests from all over the country here each and every Saturday night.

Here's where all the magic starts, and the magic happens here each and every Saturday night.

All the girls coming out one by one.

We do do production numbers occasionally, but most of the time, it's one single number after the other.

Our 10 o'clock show is a fast teaser show without the emcee.

Runs for about 35 minutes.

Our 11 o'clock show is our featured show with myself, the emcee, and runs for about 90 minutes.

And then our one o'clock show is called the Glamor Show, which is usually power ballads and lovely gowns and head pieces and feathers to be able to relax you before you leave here at the end of the evening and give you one more zing of drag.

You wanna follow me, and I'll show you the dressing rooms.

Oh, we can point this out.

We honor the past and we teach the future.

This is what we teach and tell all of our contestants each and every year, and that's our motto along with the tradition of excellence.

That, you become a titleholder here, you're gonna learn more in one year than you would at drag school for 10 years.

And back here is where the transformations begin from male to female.

And some of our entertainers, you probably would be able to tell that they were males at all.

It's our dress room, 11 sections.

We do have up to nine girls in a show each and every Saturday night.

Sometimes there's a little more, sometimes a little less, but we do have nine cast members each and every Saturday night.

And here's my dressing room.

This is where I bark all the commands and yelling at all the girls to hurry up and get ready.

It's time to go.

15 minutes to overture.

I hope you come and see us.

We've been here 48 years.

I don't plan on being here another 48, but I'm sure Gigi's will.

At this time, we are in the process of trying to have Gigi's put on the historical registry for the state of Michigan because there is no LGBTQ location in the historic registry, so that's what we're working on right now.

So Gigi's, if that happens, will always be here, always have to be a bar, and always be a place where everyone's welcome except narrow-minded people.

We hope to see you soon.

Thanks for coming.

Bye.

(crowd applauding) - So one of the important special elements that both of these spaces share is its connections to the trans community and how each is cultivated and embraced.

Trans people is part of their history.

This is a slide of the Compton's transgendered cultural district.

So the Tenderloin District has a documented presence for the trans community since the early 1920s.

And in those days, it was called the Gay Ghetto from the 1930s through the '60s, prior to the birth of the renowned Castro District in the modern LGBTQ rights movement after the Compton Cafeteria riot, which Donna Personna was at.

(crowd applauding and cheering) And in 2017, through the advocacy of three Black trans women, the Compton's transgender cultural district was legally recognized and named.

So to amplify the contributions of transgendered people to the city of San Francisco.

These leaders were Aria Sa'id, Honey Mahogany, and Janetta Johnson.

And it will be noted like Jim Toy that the advances of gay rights mostly has laying on the shoulders of trans and people of color.

(crowd cheering and applauding) There's a similar set of circumstances occurring at Gigi's where on any given Saturday night, if you walk in, you'd see hundreds of the trans community dancing and socializing at Gigi's.

It's a phenomenon... Not a phenomenon, but I had never seen it anywhere.

It was a real cultural space that celebrated trans joy.

This was not only trans, but there's also included cross dressers and female impersonators, allies, friends and lovers.

But at the center of this, and I was always curious as to why this, in this gritty industrial working class town of Detroit was I seen like such a wonderful preponderance of people celebrating their identity.

And one of the reasons was this really interesting person named Janet.

I don't know Janet's last name, but Janet is a pioneer trans woman who founded Janet's Closet in Wyandotte, which is located south of Detroit.

And it was at this store that started, it was a store that started in 1999 as a vehicle to help find female clothing that fit on a man's body, and it is the largest cross-dressing store in the world.

A little bit of a chore, Janet's Closet.

(crowd applauding) And I'm gonna talk over this, but to give you a little taste.

Who's been to Janet's Closet?

- Yeah!

(crowd cheering) - [Ben] Gotta make the pilgrimage.

(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to Janet's.

I'm Corrine.

- I'm Bailey, and this is the world's largest cross-dressing store in America, and we're gonna give you a tour today.

- So we're just gonna watch that while I talk.

It's interesting...

So Janet founded this, and not only was it Janet's Closet on one side of the building, but Janet also ran Michigan's largest speed shop, the National Machined Engine company.

So, speed shop on one side, cross-dressing paradise on the other.

So we took this tour, and you can see that if you do go there, and I do hope that you do, it's designed for anybody who is either exploring or has no idea how to come out or wants to sort of look for clothing that would fit them.

And there's a whole selection of wigs, you see the makeup, and there's a whole area that you'll see where there's... You could have... You can put... What do you call it?

Formulated breasts and hips and tuck.

It's all there.

It's really fascinating to go.

And there's also room where if you don't know anything about makeup they'll have a professional do your own makeup, fit you with a wig, fit you with shoes, make you get ready.

Also, you can go there and they have lockers.

So if you just want to go out for the night, you can put your clothes in a locker, get transformed to go out, come back and go back to the life that you lead.

But they really love the fact that they can help people realize their own identity.

And what I was witnessing when I was going to Gigi's and seeing everyone dancing on the dance floor is that Janet at the time, but also if there's someone who is new to the community, she would take everyone out for one night to go dancing with that new person just so they would know what it would feel like to be surrounded by people who cared about them.

So they really created a safe space.

So Janet did that.

They did that at Gigi's.

(crowd cheering) And we wanna celebrate that.

And other queer performance histories, and specifically those center in queer and trans spaces, are all but being erased at this time as well.

This erasure been going on for a long time, and I wanna acknowledge the generations of unsung queer performers in these spaces who helped to build this important legacy.

Long before there was an Aunt Charlie's and a Gigi's, there's also a wide variety of other important meeting spaces that featured the art of female impersonation and entertainment and drag of all kinds.

Some of these included Pinocchio's in San Francisco, in the Belmont, The Gold Dollar in Detroit.

You may have heard the name Vicki Marlane, who, for 50 years, was performing at Aunt Charlie's and they recently named a street after her.

So... Our legendary queens.

(crowd applauding) Finally.

So this gathering of queens I hope will inspire the people in this room, one, to know your history, two, embrace intergenerational kinship and support and quit the ageism that plagues the LGBTA community, but I know it plagues every community, so, works very much in LGBT community, to engage in the social practice of ensuring that queer spaces are protected.

And as you know, there are over 240 anti LGBTA bills filed in 2022, mostly targeting trans people.

And finally, that the art of drag and female entertainment is also seen on the same other levels that those that are so rigorously studied and researched and referenced in institutions of higher learning.

And as we think about in the importance of DEI, as it's being funded in practice here in Michigan, and these practices have been on the... As it been funded in Michigan, but these practices have been on the shoulders of these queens for generations without any of the support or acknowledgement offered.

So if you want to know how it really looks to see de DEI in the truest sense of the word, you should make your pilgrimages to Gigi's and Aunt Charlie's and Janet's Closet.

And so with that, and let's get on with this interview, but I first want to thank Christina Hamilton, Nate Davis in line, Brittany Barnes and Susan Schauberger for their help in this presentation.

And without any further ado, we welcome back to the stage our legendary queens, Lady T Tempest, (crowd cheering) Donna Personna, Nickki Stevens, Maxi Chanel.

(crowd applauding and cheering) In brand new looks.

Hello.

Hello, everybody.

- Hi, honey.

- Hello.

- I have to keep my legs closed.

- So do I.

(crowd laughing) We don't wanna scar these people's eyeballs.

- I mean, the first thing I wanna do is just say thank you.

- Thank you.

Thank you, all.

- Thank you.

- Thank you Ben.

Thank you Ann Arbor for coming out for us.

This is awesome.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, sisters.

- Thank you, honey.

This is fabulous.

- I mean, What does this represent?

Like, 1000 years of drag history right here on this day?

- Yeah.

- How dare you?

- I've only been part of for 20 years.

- I think I stole that from Nickki.

- I've only been doing this six months.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

(crowd laughing) First of all, before you get started, Ben, first of all, they said that they were coming to Gigi's to do a little video and a little pictures and everything else, whatever.

I didn't know that I was going to be the tour guide.

(crowd laughing) I would've put a lash on or two.

(crowd laughing) But I look like a truck driver from the pilot truck stop in Monroe, Michigan along I-75.

Woo woo!

(crowd cheering) Large Marge, the lesbian truck driver.

(crowd laughing) Tell the Large Marge sent you.

So, I first wanted to say that, and you can see by that video why I'm single.

All right.

(crowd laughing) - I would like to thank you all for dragging me out of here from San Francisco.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Oh, fa, fa, fa.

(crowd applauding) - I've come a long way, baby.

- Our San Francister.

- Yeah, and it took a long time.

(group laughing) - So I wanna talk to you about your lives and your history, and I think that's an exciting thing for us to think about.

One of the things I'd like you to talk about, because there's a lot of young people on this audience, what it was like when you first started.

What was the scene, what were you seeing, who was around?

This is pre-cellphone, pre-internet, pre- - Cassette tapes.

- Pre all that.

(crowd laughing) And so you were coming out in whatever city you were in.

What was that like?

What was the gay world like at that time?

- I can tell you, being the longest person out up here, I came out in the '70s, I was only 20 some years... (laughs) (crowd laughing) I was only 21 or 22 years old, and I remembered the very first time I went to a bar.

It was Gigi's.

And the waiter came up to me, his name was Wally, I remember this.

And he said to me, "Is this your first time?"

And I said, yes.

And he said, "They're gonna eat you alive."

(crowd laughing) And I was only 110 pounds, and I wasn't trans then.

I didn't have these things.

And he said, "They're gonna eat you alive."

And I thought, oh my God, what does that mean?

And I have to tell you, it was the greatest day of my life.

(crowd applauding) Yes, yes.

Greatest day of my life.

Don't allow yourself to stay in a closet, don't allow anybody to put you in the closet.

Be who you are, be proud of it, and make sure anybody that needs your help, you helped.

Because I had a home.

I took in... Nickki was part of that home.

We took in 13, 14 young people that were put out of their homes because they were gay, we made sure they were safe and sound, and I want you all to be proud of who you are because I am very proud of being 70 years old, being trans, being LGBTQ.

Did I do it right?

- Yes, ma'am.

- Okay.

I know times have changed.

In my day, you were just sissy, gay.

That was it.

That's all we had.

But thank you all very much.

(crowd cheering) - Nickki.

- The way it's changed, and besides cassette tapes and rotary phones.

Back then, when I first came out and started going to the bars, in Detroit there was 60, 70 gay bars or whatever, now there's eight, maybe, if that.

And always back then, we're not tooting our own horns, not doing anything else or whatever, we've fought and everything else and marched and everything else, and da, da, da da, and we'll get into that a little bit later.

But now, especially here in Ann Arbor, you can walk down your street holding hands with your significant other, you can kiss on this street, you can... Back then, the entrances to the bar were through the back alley, through a back door, so you didn't get shot or nobody knew where the bar was.

It was our own private oasis, our own private paradise, that we could be around people that who were like us.

And it was very hush, hush on the down low, and you had to ask somebody where the next bar was, and then it started to get more and more and more and more.

And very few straight people, heterosexuals, excuse me.

(crowd laughing) It was usually the receptionist at the hair salon, that some gay guy was working at.

But back then, and for us to come to this now, I mean, I remember just being wet behind the years.

The very first time I was at a gay bar, I was 15, 15 years old.

(crowd laughing) I know.

on a blind date on Pipeline.

Do you remember... Who's old enough to remember- - No, no one.

- No one?

- No one.

(crowd applauding) Just you.

- Okay.

Well... - I don't remember dating.

- Ah!

It was the bedrock, Fred Flintstone Grindr.

That's what it was.

(crowd laughing) It was the Michigan Bell, not AT&T, the Michigan Bell tester lines that you would call and you'd hook up with somebody and like, how tall are you, how big are you?

Yada, yada, yada.

Da, da, da.

What do you like to do?

And spit on it and all that.

Okay.

And, do wanna meet up?

And yada yada, yada, all that, and that's the first time I ever was at gay bar.

But that's... Err, going around the corner.

(crowd laughing) Back then, ladies and gentlemen, we had to be secretive and everything else or whatever to be able to be and choose who we wanted to be, and now, hallelujah, thank God, but now others are trying to put a step back, and we're not gonna go there, but that's my story of coming out.

- We're gonna do Donna, and then we're gonna end with you, Max.

- Come on, Donna.

- Donna, tell us about what it was like in San Francisco, coming out in San Francisco.

- Well, I wanna say, first of all, that I'm 76 years old.

(crowd applauding) - We love ya.

- Yes, and I love that.

I love it, I own it.

And one message that I give off for that is, you can survive, I will survive.

- [Maxi] That's right.

- You can still be here.

But when I was 18, 19 years old in another century, as she said, it was very, very secretive.

There weren't...

Gay bars were not known.

You didn't go to a tree to see a poster or a telephone pole to know where there was a show.

It was all secret.

And the clubs had names like, well, where I work, Aunt Charlie's.

If you were of a certain bent, you figured, Oh, wow, maybe that's somewhere I wanna go.

There was another one that was... - And this was in San Francisco?

- This was in San Francisco.

And also, people doing drag were in alleyways.

It was like a speakeasy.

You had to go to a place where, in the daytime, they make olive oil or something, but at night, and you had to say a certain rhyme, eenie meenie miney mo, and they would let you in.

And it was magical in there.

It was magical in there.

And we saw these shows, but the show girls, I'm gonna be crude, if they wanted to have a dilly-dally, they had to rent a boy because it wasn't offered to you.

If they caught on that you did drag, you never had any kind of romance or boyfriend.

And this is the gay community.

They exed you.

You couldn't have that life.

So, myself, not that I wanted that life, but it seemed too difficult to navigate, and I didn't want that for myself.

And they got tormented, they got beat up, stuff like that.

- You mean it was the era that police were still arresting?

- Oh, the police applauded if they saw that.

There was nowhere to go.

There was nowhere to go for help.

And that was just too much work for me.

And also, I wanted to have, I'm gonna say like, a normal life.

I wanted to go to school, I wanted to work, so I chose not to do that.

And I was so, so afraid of drag.

I never wore makeup.

But I will say, I say this, when I dawned men's clothes, they magically turned into something that a woman would wear.

I mean, you know, the girl can't help it.

I couldn't help it.

That was my experience.

But at the age of 59, I started... My friends, I was friends with The Cockettes, which is a legendary group in San Francisco.

- The Cockettes.

- Yeah, The Cockettes.

And I encourage you to look them up, find out about them.

So I was friends with them.

And in 2003 a documentary came about them.

And so I reconnected with them and I was hanging out with them.

And like, for about two years, The Cockettes would say, "Have you ever tried this?"

"Have you ever put on a dress?"

And they kept nagging me, and they kept coming up with names for me.

What I did, it was a game.

And I said, okay, well, since I'm educated and read a lot, maybe I should be the Paige Turner.

(crowd laughing) But, I read dirty books too, so I decided not to do that name.

So I finally put on a dress and I never took one off again.

I mean, that was... (crowd cheering) - Thank you.

- That was a new life for me.

And I decided, my name is Donna Personna because I dawned a dress and I dawned this persona, and this persona is really who I am.

It's really who I am.

So it took me a long time to do it, but I finally did it, and this is it for the rest of my life.

And I'm blessed... (crowd cheering) I'm blessed that I get many opportunities.

You might think that you start old and it's not gonna happen, but I'm very proud of this.

I've performed in over a hundred stages.

Yes, over a hundred stages, and I'm proud of this too, and this is because of The Cockettes.

I have performed on the Lincoln Center Stage in New York City.

- That's right.

- Congratulations.

- So, you're never too late, you're never too old, and go for it, and be who you are.

And now, everything that I was afraid of, now I'm a goddess for it.

- Ah.

- And so I ain't gonna... - That's great.

- I'm not gonna change.

- Thank you, thank you.

- Thank you.

- I wanna hear Maxi's origin story and the House of Chanel.

Like, when they write the books, they wanna talk about the House of Chanel.

- Well, I'm gonna start with coming out and segue into House of Chanel.

So back when I was coming out, it was the '80s and I lived in Fairview, North Carolina.

Yes, I had just moved there after living in Africa.

So talk about your culture shock.

So I knew who I was, but at that time, I really had no idea that there was such a thing as living a lifestyle of being gay or being trans or being a drag queen.

I had no idea about any of it.

And then I graduated high school and got as far away as I could from North Carolina.

And I mean, I love it, but no, can't live there.

I love to visit though.

Moved to Seattle, Washington.

And when I got to Seattle, Washington...

Okay, in the building.

Got to Seattle, Washington, I discovered like my head was blown off.

I discovered multitudes of people living life the way they wanted to live it.

You know, like, gay people, trans people.

I was friends with tons of trans women, and this was back in, late in the '80s.

And so I discovered that there was such a thing as being gay coming out having a community, so I ran back home to North Carolina.

I lived with my grandmother, so I was like, Grandma, I got something to tell you.

She was like, "Oh, okay, after dinner we'll go sit on my bed and we'll talk about it."

So, 'cause you know, we used to watch Ed McMahon's show?

We used to watch that every week.

So that was the day.

I was like... No, Ed McMahon the talent show.

- [Nickki] "Star Search"?

- "Star Search."

Thank you, Nickki.

So we sitting there watching "Star Search," I'm like, Grandma, check this out.

She was like, "Okay, what does you wanna tell me?"

I'm gay.

(crowd laughing) And fortunately for me, and not everybody gets this response, my grandmother was like, "And?"

(crowd laughing and cheering) I have been so blessed that I know that there's a lot of kids that come out to their parents and their family and don't get that same response.

So immediately, it was my duty to know that whenever there was someone who didn't get that response, I'll give you that response.

Let's live, live the life you wanna live.

Okay, so moves from Seattle and landed where?

Ann Arbor, Michigan.

(crowd cheering) Yes, my grandmother was like, "You should live in Ann Arbor.

Your mother always loved it.

You should go there.

I think you'll like it."

Got here in 1989, and I've been here ever since.

(crowd cheering and applauding) And at that time, it was before cell phones, it was before a lot of ways that we stay in communication, so our safest bet was to move as a group.

That's the way you stay safe, stay with people.

So me and my two sisters, Gregory Williams and Chuck Smead, decided that we were gonna start the House of Chanel, and that's how the House of Chanel came to be, and we moved in a group.

In fact, it was so funny that 10 years after this House of Chanel started, a friend of mine was talking to me about the good old days and was like, "I thought you guys were a gang."

(crowd laughing) I was like, how do you think that?

Did you see me holding any guns, carrying on... Well, let me take that back.

We did carry on because some of these frat boys needed to learn a lesson real quick.

(crowd cheering) Yes.

- We'd be at the Nectarine.

Nectarine would fall out at two o'clock, everybody's outside, like, it would be a jam packed crowd of people in front taking up half the street just carrying on.

And then scorekeepers would let out, and they would all come flowing around the corner, so some of them had to learn to watch their mouth.

We are not having it.

(crowd cheering) So that's my coming out story, that's how House of Chanel started, that was 1991, and we are a ridiculous loving family still.

- Yes.

- Amazing.

- Yes.

- Great.

So I'm now gonna ask about being the life of a performer.

Not everyone becomes a performer, a female impersonator, a drag queen, and I would love to know what it takes for you to get up night after night after night, find creativity.

It's not like you're being presented by a presenter.

It's like, you're doing this for yourselves, you're doing it for your community, you're building community.

Can you talk a little bit about what it means to do what you do over years at a time, what your inspirations are or what your inspirations are for how you're performing?

I also wanna know if you could bring back any performance you'd ever seen of some former performer, who would that be and what was it?

- Wow.

- Oh, that's a little... - Oh my God.

- Okay.

Okay, mine goes back to the '70s.

I know you're gonna all look at me like I'm absolutely crazy.

I was dating a guy named Ricky, and he said to me, he said, "Would you like to go see a drag show?"

And I said to him... Can I say this?

I said to to him, why the fuck would I wanna go see a drag show?

And he said, "The wonderful, wonderful Vandelles is here from Grand Rapids."

And I thought, okay, to make him happy, I would go.

And I went to the Escape Lounge on Joy Road and Greenfield, and across the stage came this very large, probably in the 400-pound range, big blonde hair, silver eyelashes and everything, and I thought, okay.

And she did a song called "You Came a Long Way From St. Louis" And in the middle of it it says, "I got my part, let's go."

She put her leg up and over her head six times and I thought, this is for me.

(crowd cheering and laughing) Yeah.

- Right.

- Yeah.

And that night she announced there was gonna be an amateur contest in a month.

I went and entered.

I ended up first runner up, and I have been doing this ever since, and I will continue to do this till I no longer can because our community is ours and we love them all.

And the straight people, we love you too, honey.

We know you love us.

(crowd cheering) - May I go next?

- Okay, yeah.

So Maxi's gonna go next.

- Okay.

So I'm living in Michigan, but I was here in Ann Arbor, but I really hadn't experienced like the finest in drag in Michigan until I started going to Detroit.

And I would go and see this one and that one over there, and I was like, this is for me.

And we would go drag shows every weekend.

We would see the incredible Melba Moore, we would see April Summers, Lady T Tempest, we'd go to the pageants, Nickki Stevens would be showing out, and I would be so critical Me and my friends would be standing there and I'm like, okay, I like her hair, but da, da, da, blah, blah, blah.

Ooh, I wish she had da, da, da, da, da, da.

And one day my friend looked at me and said, "Well, if you got so much to say, why don't you try it?"

- There you go.

- And I did, and here I am.

(crowd cheering) (Ben laughing) - And we thank you.

- I never stopped, and I won't stop.

- Yeah.

- Donna, what was a memorable performance that if you could wish it back into existence?

- Okay, well this is really rated X.

It's a really- - Okay, all the kids, cover your ears.

(crowd laughing) - It was in Brooklyn.

I was there to perform, and I didn't perform in this show but it was a drag queen that, I did shows with her, and she was the most outrageous act I ever saw in my life.

And one thing she did was, she had a bottle of champagne and she opened the bottle of champagne, she took a swig of it, and then she put the bottle of champagne on the floor and she's doing this wild number.

Yes.

And at some point, she pulled up her skirt and she was totally nude and she sat on the bottle, okay?

(crowd laughing) She got up and she pulled the bottle.

She had good traction or something.

(crowd laughing) - She was pre-lubed.

- Yeah.

- She has skill.

- She pulled the bottle out, she took a swig.

Okay.

It was bubbly.

(crowd laughing) And then she spit it out into the audience.

- Oh my God.

- And you know what?

- People loved it.

- She didn't get any tips.

(crowd and drag queens laughing) But, you know, I never...

I'm not that skunky, honey, but I do like champagne.

So, that was the wildest thing.

And it was, for me, it didn't... Actually, the audience loved it.

- What about you, Nickki?

(crowd and Donna laughing) - What the fuck was the question again?

(Donna laughing) - Something never brought.

- Ooh!

All right.

(crowd laughing) The performance I would love to see again?

Which is impossible to see.

It can't be, correct?

- Right.

- One of my favorites, Tempest will attest to this.

I'm not sure if Maxi is that old.

Well, probably.

But one of my favorites is the very first Ms. Gigi's, 1974, Mr. Lane.

St. Jack doing "I Who Have Nothing".

Baby.

- Oh my God.

- Baby, that was the number to see.

And when she didn't do it, people would get mad.

(crowd laughing) Mad.

She's like, "You're not doing it?"

And then they bring her back on and she'd have to do another number.

And she's like, "Oh, you're paying me, I'll do another number."

But that was I'd like to see.

And also I'd like to see Tempest be able to do drop squats again when she was 40 years younger than she is now.

- They call it T kicks.

(Nickki laughing) T kicks.

- What did she do?

Say that again.

- Drop squats.

That's what, she does.

Mother, she'll do one.

Wait a minute, she'll do one.

Okay.

Mom, be careful.

Don't break a hip.

(crowd cheering) - Yes!

- But back in the day, she would do like 10 of those in a row.

- In a row.

- No, 20 or 25 in a row.

- Yeah.

- So much so that when she came up, her feet would come up off the ground, and I was in love.

I almost got a tattoo of this chick.

That's how much I love her.

- And not holding on to anyone.

And I'm gonna tell you a quick story.

It was during the AIDS crisis and we were doing an AIDS benefit.

AIDS, honey, Aids.

(crowd and drag queens laughing) And there was a gentleman that did not like me, his name was Michael.

And he came up to the stage and he said, "Bitch, I will give a hundred dollars for every squat you can do."

- Why he do that?

- Are you ready?

I did 37 of them and... (crowd cheering) and he paid the $3,700 for the AIDS Foundation, and I bless him to this day.

(crowd cheering) - But that'll also get you married.

- Yeah.

Yes, honey, yeah.

- So we only have like a little more time here, and I wanted to ask you a question about, you know, you come from great traditions of performance, lots of drag history, lots of female impersonation that came before you, the things that you value, there's how your community operates, there's the importance of lineage, there's the house, the the drag mothers, there's all of this, and I'm just wondering if you could tell me what it takes to be a legend.

- Oh, wow.

- Lasting.

- I'll let you know when I get there.

(Maxi laughing) - It takes determination, guts, kindness, respect, love for one another.

That's what makes myself and other legends, legends.

We respect each other and we love each other and we help each other, that's what makes a legend.

Challenge is great, beauty is great, but if you don't have it inside your heart, we don't want ya.

(crowd cheering and applauding) - And and I'd just like to add to all of that professionalism, because your reputation has to be stellar.

If people go out in the streets and ask about you, you want it to be positive.

So if you make that last, then you become a legend, I believe.

(crowd cheering) - Yeah.

- That's at least what I've tried to.

- And you are.

- Thank you, sister.

Thank you.

- I'd like to say that, for me, just being human.

I'm human, and that means I'm a mess.

I'm a mess.

- [Maxi] Me too girl.

- And I'm not perfect.

And so the message gets across to people, just be human.

Don't try to be perfect.

There's no such thing.

And like as she was saying, be nice.

Be nice.

And I do numbers that resonate for me and I don't expect the audience to always know exactly what the song means, but every song I do does that, and it is my story.

So I think I convey that.

And I wanna give you one example.

A lot of songs that I do say, I love you, I love you.

And when I'm doing a number, this is both men and women, I'll look at someone, and they do this.

Me, me?

(crowd laughing) And I really do.

In that moment, I really love you.

So I think that's one thing that it takes to become a legend.

(crowd applauding) - Thank you.

- Yup.

- Oh, me?

Well, legend.

I find the word, I don't know, means I'm old.

(crowd laughing) But It's just basic, putting others before yourself and being unselfish.

That's what it is.

And the more that you bring somebody up and bring somebody up and bring somebody up, it comes back and reflects on you, and then you're a legend in their eyes and you're a legend in everybody else that loves them and so on and so on and so on.

And those of you who are old, then we'll be doing a shampoo commercial and so on and so on and so on.

(crowd laughing) Thank you for the old person in the back that got that joke.

(crowd laughing) Thank you.

I can't remember if it was (indistinct) or Pantene.

I can't remember what that was.

But no, just being unselfish.

And Tempest brought me up and threw me out on stage and made me do what I wanna do, sometimes not on purpose.

Sometimes she was too drunk to come outta the dressing room.

But... (crowd laughing) - It happens.

- Too drunk.

- But you have to help those coming after you, and that's what makes a legend.

- I love you, honey.

I love you.

(crowd cheering) - Get it, girl.

- A lot of times, we see what's in the media and the current crop of personalities on TV, but they don't see the real activism that you do to raise money for each other, for the community.

Does anybody want to give any sort of last little tidbits of what it means to really be supportive of a community?

- It means doing whatever it is you can possibly do to support that community and lift that community up.

And I know for a fact, all of us have done that.

Like, I'm just meeting Donna, but that's my sister.

We talk, talk, talk in the back, and she loves doing this and she knows that it gives people joy, and that's what I love about it.

And we've all done our part because we love the community, so we do whatever it takes that we can do.

- Help each other.

I'm telling you, from the bottom of my heart, help each other.

Don't be afraid to help the next person because that person makes you a better person, themselves a better person, and the next person a better person.

So reach out and help them.

It doesn't cost you a dime.

Not a dime to be kind.

- Yeah.

(crowd applauding) One thing that I like to say to people, I say, in this life, give more than you take.

Give more than you take.

So many...

I think we're trained to, what do I want?

And I'm speaking for myself.

I do, I give a lot, and I feel like I'm getting the most joy, and that's my truth.

I really do.

So, I'll invite you to do that.

Give more than you take in this world and life.

(crowd cheering and applauding) - Would you like to say anything?

- I just wanna say, just be true to yourself, as I close every show.

It's better to be hated for what you are, than love for what you're not.

- [Maxi] Yes.

(crowd cheering and applauding) - Well, I just wanna thank you for your years and your gifts that you've given to the community, your generosity of coming tonight, of doing this night, after night, after night.

And the work that you do is truly important and you have changed so many people's lives, so I wanna acknowledge what you have done and I want you to continue on doing it and helping the next generation along as well.

I have one last question, and it's for the audience, which is, would you like to see them perform one more time?

(crowd cheering) - Oh!

Kill me.

Kill me now.

Oh my God.

- Okay.

- Oh, we going this way.

Okay.

I'm so used to having big things in my... Is that my (indistinct)?

(crowd cheering) (majestic music) ♪ Someday somewhere ♪ ♪ We'll find a new way of living ♪ ♪ We'll find a way of forgiving ♪ ♪ Somewhere ♪ ♪ There's a place for us ♪ ♪ Somewhere a place for us ♪ ♪ Peace and quiet and open air ♪ ♪ Wait for us somewhere ♪ ♪ There's a time for us ♪ ♪ Someday there'll be a time for us ♪ ♪ Time together with time to spare ♪ ♪ Time to learn ♪ ♪ Time to care ♪ ♪ Someday somewhere ♪ ♪ We'll find a new way of living ♪ ♪ We'll find there's a way of forgiving ♪ ♪ Somewhere somewhere somewhere ♪ ♪ There's a place for us ♪ ♪ A time and a place for us ♪ ♪ Hold my hand and we're half way there ♪ ♪ Hold my hand and I'll take you there ♪ ♪ Somehow someday somewhere ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I'm coming ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I want the world to know ♪ ♪ Got to let it show ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I want the world to know ♪ ♪ Got to let it show ♪ ♪ There's a new me coming out ♪ ♪ And I just have to live ♪ ♪ And I wanna give ♪ ♪ I'm completely positive ♪ ♪ I think this time around ♪ ♪ I am gonna do it like ♪ you never knew it ♪ ♪ Oh I'll make it through ♪ ♪ The time has come for me ♪ to break out of the shell ♪ ♪ I have to shout that I am coming out ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I want the world to know ♪ ♪ I got to let it show ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I want the world to know ♪ ♪ I got to let it show ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I want the world to know ♪ ♪ Got to let it show ♪ ♪ I'm coming ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I want the world to know ♪ ♪ Got to let it show ♪ ♪ I've got to show the ♪ world all that I wanna be ♪ ♪ And all my abilities ♪ ♪ There's so much more to me ♪ ♪ Somehow I'll have to ♪ make them just understand ♪ ♪ I got it well in hand ♪ ♪ And oh how I've planned ♪ ♪ I'm spreadin' love ♪ there is no need to fear ♪ ♪ And I just feel so ♪ good every time I hear ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I want the world to know ♪ ♪ I got to let it show ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪ ♪ I want the world to know ♪ ♪ Got to let it show ♪ ♪ I'm coming ♪ ♪ I'm coming out ♪