Man 1: Hi Gloria, tell me how your friends describe you.

- Well my father used to call me Gabby Hays, and uh, I think everybody feels like that I’m somebody that they can come to and talk to just about anything, and I want to be the kind of person that when they say, How are you today?

When I ask them that, I really want to know how they are.

♪♪ Lise: Gloria Squires of Medicine Lodge, Kansas describes herself first and foremost as a Christian woman.

Together with her husband, she's spent the last fifteen years refurbishing Christian ministries in small towns across Kansas.

Recently, Gloria found a picture of her paternal grandfather, William David Martin, who died before she was born.

The family story she's heard about his life and death is that he was a drunk who cheated on his wife and was beaten to death in a hotel room.

But being a firm believer in the goodness in everyone, Gloria wants to redeem his memory by investigating the family story and learning all she can about his life.

Gloria: I don't want him to be remembered as mean drunk or a person who didn't care about his family.

I think every person, there's good in 'em.

♪♪ His picture makes me sad.

I don't know, I see a sadness in his eyes.

The stories I’ve heard about him, it's just like he was lonely, he was a very lonely individual.

♪♪ There's just something about him that it's a hole in my life, and I-I just feel like I need to fill it and by finding out more about him I feel like I can close that gap or that hole.

Lise: We often work hard to preserve the memory of our admirable ancestors, but what about those who aren't quite so admirable?

Will we remember them solely for their faults?

Or will we take the time to find the good in their lives, and try even for just a moment, to see the world through their eyes?

From the studios of BYU Television in Provo, Utah, this is The Generations Project.

♪♪ Hi, everyone.

I’m Lise Simms, and each week on our program we bring you the story of someone who for one reason or another, wants to get to know their ancestor or an entire generation of their family tree.

And we help them do just that.

We're an ongoing project connecting people across generations and today that person is Gloria Squires.

Hi Gloria.

- Hi.

I’m glad to be here.

- I’m so glad to have you.

I’m so fascinated with the beginning of your journey particularly.

Because you had only heard horrible things about your grandfather.

Gloria: That's right.

All my-- I was just heard that grandpa was nothing but a drunk, good for nothing, he cheated on grandma, and the worst of all was he was found in a hotel.

He had been beaten to death, and uh, he was drunk at the time, and that's just an awful way to die, I thought.

- Oh, I agree.

And what I want to know is what is it about you that made you think you could find something good in this man?

- Well, when you have Christ in your life and He changes you, at least for me, I try to look for the good in people.

Everyone I meet I feel like if we would treat them differently that maybe they could come to have a saving knowledge of Christ also.

And they can only do that if we open ourselves up to them even if we have to be hurt sometimes.

But share Christ with them and feel their hurts.

You may cry with them, or you may-- whatever it is you have to do.

I’ve gone through things where there was a child that was shot to death, four years old and sat with that mother, who was lost.

And after the fact, we went through the funeral and everything, my husband did the funeral, my daughter lived across the street where this little girl was killed.

And uh, this lady she accepted Christ, and later come to serve God.

Lise: It was a comfort to her.

- Yeah, it was very much a comfort.

- Well those convictions don't just come out of thin air.

Have you always been that way?

Did someone teach you this?

- I don't know.

I’ve always felt like I’ve had this calling from a little bitty girl.

Lise: Really?

- Yes.

God was always something that seemed very close to me even when I was tiny, tiny, not very old.

I just had this, kind of drawing of some sort to where I just felt like I was being drawn to God.

And I always had questions, and when I’d see the sun or see things happen and I’d heard stories about the end time and when it come, and I was probably about eight years old, and one of these harvest moons came up and the moon turned red, and I just knew the end of the world was coming.

And I, I mea-- that's how much my heart was tuned in to- Lise: Isn't that interesting?

- to God and those kinds of things.

And I just-- you know, it just-- I just had that drawing to God, I- Lise: Is that where this need to redeem your grandfather's memory comes from?

Is this connection that you have with your faith?

It's a noble quest.

- Well, I don't know if it was so much just my grandfather so much as it was-- I grew up, I had no grandparents other than one grandmother.

Lise: Growing up.

- I did not know any of my grandfathers, they were all gone by the time I was born.

One died bef-- the year before I was born and one died the year after I was born- Lise: Ah-hah.

Gloria: and that-- which was William David.

He died the year after I was born.

Lise: And William David was your father's father?

- Yes.

- So that's who we're sort of searching out.

Gloria: Mm-hm.

- This is the gentleman that you knew as a drunk and had cheated on his wife?

Gloria: Right.

- Did your dad ever talk about his dad?

- The only thing my dad ever said was-- Well, my dad was very strict and crude.

And he used to sit around making a hangman's noose, teaching my brothers how to do this thing, and I wondered, what kind of a person would want to do these things?

And I thought, it had to have come from his father or somewhere along the line that he learned this, you know, this kind of a thing.

So uh, I wasn't real sure, but I just kind of felt-- and then my dad made comments that were conflicting with one another.

We went to Texas on vacation one time, and he had made comments about Blacks, and how he was prejudice and stuff like that, and in the same token, there was a family broke down on the side of the road.

And they-- their tire-- had blown their tire and had no spare.

They had five children in the car.

My dad stopped and gave that man that-- his tire.

Lise: That's interesting.

So you were seeing both sides of this man?

- So and I thought, Okay, here’s somebody who talks like he's prejudiced, but yet he doesn't respond like he is.

Lisa: Well, I want to know more about your dad.

What was your relationship like with your dad?

'Cause you're thinking as a-- already, Maybe my dad's like this because of his dad.

So, what's your relationship look like with your dad growing up?

Gloria: I didn't have a good relationship because dad was always drunk.

Lise: Oh.

- And I thought maybe that his father, it-- where did he get it, I didn't know.

My father and mother fought all the time.

- So, your relationship with your father was difficult?

Gloria: It became very distant then.

I ended up in an orphans' home, and when I got home, a funny thing happened.

God took care of me.

My dad stopped drinking.

He never touched another drop of alcohol the rest of my years until I met my husband.

Lise: Oh my gosh.

- And then he started drinking again.

Lise: Well, I want to get back to William David because that's really where our story starts.

Your story is so complex, but I’m starting to see this through line of the alcoholism with your father, you knew that your grandfather was an alcoholic, and wanting to redeem your grandfather, and seeing two sides of your dad, and not knowing, Who is the whole man, and who made this man, and who made that man before him?

Gloria: Right.

- So we start with William David, and you specifically wanted to investigate these three family rumors- Gloria: Right.

- the way you knew him, that he was a drunk, that he had cheated on his wife, and that he was found dead in a hotel room.

Gloria: Right.

And I have a letter that he wrote.

Lise: Oh.

- It was prior to his death, but they had, they had broke up at that time, and he was in the hotel at that time.

Lise: Oh, that's fascinating.

So we take you to learn about the environment in which your grandfather, your father's father, lived and worked, in hopes that you will gather some understanding of the man better.

I think we should watch that part of your journey.

Gloria: Alrighty.

♪♪ Lise: Gloria's grandfather, William David Martin, was born in 1901, and spent his life working and living in the rough sawmill communities that dotted southeast Texas.

♪♪ In order to better understand his life, and how growing up in such an environment could have possibly contributed to William's alcoholism, Gloria is visiting the Texas Forestry Museum in Lufkin, Texas, where she's arranged to meet with Bob Poland, a local resident, who like William David, grew up in a sawmill community.

Gloria: Hello, Bob.

- Well, I’m Bob Poland.

Gloria: How are you?

I wonder-- can you tell me something about-- since you were in lumber and worked mills and stuff.

- What was it like to be a boy to grow up in one of these towns?

Gloria: Okay.

- So it was a company store?

- Okay, okay, so everything made went right back into the company and the lumber mill?

- They controlled it all, didn't they?

Gloria: They sure did.

Lise: Like most mill operations of its time, the Kirby Lumber Company, where William David worked, was known for its intensely oppressive work environment.

In addition, Kirby owned the town's housing, its main store, and even the church.

Rent was deducted directly from paychecks, and workers were paid with tokens that could only be redeemed at the company store.

William David's days were occupied with long hours maintaining the mill's machinery.

Bob is showing Gloria the type of engine William David would have operated.

[squeaking] Gloria: Boy, I think this thing-- wouldn't it be a roar at the end of the day in your head?

Gloria: I bet when everything shut down at the end of the day, you could still hear the thing running.

Bob: Yep.

Gloria: I would be ignoring people because you wouldn't be able to hear anything but that going.

Oh my.

Bob: That’s right.

Lise: William David and his fellow workers would have followed a relentless routine at the mill, laboring up to sixteen hours a day, six days a week.

Gloria: Now um, do you find that maybe some of the men might kind of get down because of the type of work they were in?

It didn't seem to ever be over, they were- Gloria: Okay, okay.

Gloria: Yes sir, I do.

My grandfather had kind of a reputation for being a drunk- Bob: Mm-hm.

- and I’d like to know what kind of person that he was, because I want to remember him in a better way than just a drunk.

- That's hard work.

Gloria: I know alcohol can kind of be a sedative when your bones ache and you're tired, when you’re- Gloria: He had quite a job, I mean it was a hard job, and maybe family might kinda suffer for that.

Because when his off time would come, Okay guys let's go down here and-- to the, you know, and get us a couple drinks.

And where the couple drinks might turn into an all-nighter.

So, I kind of think that he's probably more that kind of person.

Time just kind of got away quickly because he was winding down, and, and trying to relax at the end of the day, and not realizing it turned into a little more than that.

♪♪ Lise: Now that Gloria better understands how William David's oppressive working conditions and rough culture might have contributed to his alcoholism, she wants to find out if the family story, that he cheated on his wife, is really true.

♪♪ To discover if William David was the cause of the separation, Gloria hopes to meet with William David's only living son, Henry Martin.

♪♪ Though Henry has a reputation of being guarded and unapproachable, Gloria and a cousin are going to try and meet with him.

Man 2: You remember-- shut up.

Let me go get him.

Gloria: [sighs] Man 2: He's eating his lunch.

Gloria: Oh, okay.

Man 2: Give him a minute.

Gloria: Okay, no problem.

[laughter] - You're in for a trip, I’m telling you.

Gloria: Oh, it'll be all right.

- Oh, I know it will, but I’m just saying to you, you're in for a trip he’s a-- oh, don't get me wrong.

- He's colorful that's all.

- Yeah, he's-- - That's what we call colorful.

Man 2: You better behave yourself, dogs.

Gloria: I have one picture of Henry, and he wa-- it was taken in 1964, and he was probably like 31 years old I figure, at that time.

Man 2: '64, he wasn’t even thirty.

Gloria: Yeah, probably not.

Man 2: He'd have been 29.

[coughing] Gloria: Uncle Henry, how are you?

I bet you don't remember me.

Gloria: Do you remember me?

Can I have a hug?

Been a long time since I’ve seen you, I think I was down-- Gloria: I was a little bitty girl, wasn't I?

Henry: Yeah.

- Yeah, I was.

How you doing?

You got those pretty blue eyes like grandpa had.

[laughs] Whatever caused grandma and grandpa to break up?

I know they'd got in a spat, I know.

Gloria: Oh okay.

Gloria: What's forgotten is left better off, huh?

Henry: Yeah.

Gloria: Well was he messing around?

Gloria: No?

Gloria: Oh, okay.

Well, how about grandma?

What she'd get mad over that she ma-- she decided she didn't want to be with him no more?

Gloria: Her lumber comes to his house?

- Oh, oh my.

Okay, well I got that picture.

Okay, so it really wasn't him that caused it, it was her.

Okay.

Gloria: Okay, tell me about mama.

How'd you boys feel about your mama doing all this stuff?

Did you get kind of mad at her?

[car alarm] Henry: What was that?

Gloria: Electronics.

Gloria: Oh, dear.

- Uh-huh, oh my.

Henry: Shut up!

Lise: So, Gloria now knows that William David was not cheating on Irene, but that in fact Irene was cheating on him.

That's why he moved into the hotel where he was staying when he died.

♪♪ Gloria: What kind of dad was he?

- Yeah, what kind of daddy was he?

- He was strict?

- I kind of thought he would be.

So, your dad you feel he loved you boys pretty good.

He was a good dad?

- Yeah, isn't that somethin'?

- But he'd be gentle, real gentle with 'em.

- How did he die?

Oh your grand-- how did your dad die?

Gloria: That's a rough way to go.

Gloria: Old camera right here.

Henry: Well, that's got a picture on it.

- Yeah, it’s you!

[laughs] I got you!

[laughs] Man 2: You need to get one of them without [indistinct] Now behave yourself.

No, no, behave yourself.

♪♪ Gloria: I’m learning a lot of things that wasn't the way I perceived them to be.

And I think that I'da liked my grandpa.

I have a different picture of my grandmother now though, it's kind of awful to see her that way, but if that's the facts that's the facts.

So, it really wasn't anything that he did.

Everybody was making him out to be the bad guy, and I don’t-- he wasn't the bad guy.

Henry was saying that somebody beat him to death, and it sounded almost like it was hearsay that someone told him that's how they found him.

I-I don't actually have a newspaper article about his death or an obituary or-- I don't have a death certificate or anything yet.

So, uh I think a death certificate, the doctor would say what the cause of death was.

I think they even have a place for homicide on it, so probably that would be a good document to get a hold of.

♪♪ Lise: In hopes of finding documentation of William David's exact cause of death, Gloria is visiting the Tyrrell Genealogical Library in Beaumont, Texas where she's meeting with genealogist Ednita Lane.

Gloria: When I talked to my uncle, he seemed to think that, that my grandfather was murdered, and he thought he was beat to death so I would like to be able to document some way if that was the truth or not.

Ednita: Here's the obit-- for William D. Martin.

That’s your- Gloria: That's my grandfather.

Ednita: that's your grandfather, all right.

This said he died of a heart attack.

- Oh.

- But I have a copy of his death certificate.

- You do?

- I do.

- You got the jewel.

- I got the jewel.

- Oh, good.

- And the jewel will tell us exactly what happened.

- Okay.

- And it's completely different from what your uncles have been telling you.

- Oh.

- If a man was bludgeoned to death, or if I hit you to death and beat on you- - You'd be bruised all over.

- you'd be bruised all over.

There'd be more than just an obit on you, there'd be some police reports on you.

- Right and that's what I’ve been looking for- - Because you'd be bloodied all over, you'd bloodied the bed and everything else.

- I’ve been looking and in my research I couldn't find anything.

- William David Martin.

- Yeah?

- There he is.

He lived in the county of Newton in Call, Texas.

Gloria: That's right.

Ednita: Here's his social security number.

It said that he was in Call, Texas then-- and here's the doctor's report.

Gloria: Wow.

Ednita: Here the doctor says he died of heat exhaustion.

He'd been drinking wine, dehydrated, and that he saw him.

He died at-- he went to bed at 6 pm and he died by 2:30 in the morning.

- He had-- he just laid down and died.

- He just laid down and died.

- Oh my.

Ednita: And the doctor signed it.

It's signed the 8/15 of 1948.

This was received in the county on September the 7th 1948.

So, this proves to me- - Oh yeah, no doubt.

- that he died of heat exhaustion from overworking because he drank wine instead of drinking any water when he needed it.

- He killed himself- - He killed himself- - oh my.

- by not knowing what to do.

Although a person working for Kirby Lumber Company should have known.

Lumber workers should know that they have to drink water to keep themselves going, but he probably drank a little wine and got a little bit tipsy you know, and that was it- - And didn't realize what was happening.

- and didn't realize how much of it he was doing, and he went and-- continued and continued and just went to bed and- Gloria: Oh no.

♪♪ I would rather hear that story and know the truth, because I didn't like the other story very well.

It was so sad.

I mean, you know, to think that he could have been beat to death like that, and I don't think anybody should have to die that way, and I’m glad it's the other way actually.

It's better for me.

at least he died of somewhat natural causes, and yeah he did drink too much but everybody knew that, so that was no surprise, but it's sad he died so young.

That's another thing.

He didn't live long enough to know his grandchildren.

And uh, I think he would have loved them.

I think he'd of had a ball, so I am sad for that.

I didn't get to meet him, you know.

I really think that he would have been a good granddaddy.

I really do.

And then I’m kind of sad about grandma, because it sounded like she was turned into a little bit of a lady of the evening, but then again I think grandpa was very tolerant of her for a while.

♪♪ He did the best he could with the knowledge he had, and yeah, I’m at peace with it.

♪♪ Lise: Gloria.

Your story is changing, and I love this ability of yours to say I like this better.

Gloria: Yeah.

- Why?

Because it's the truth or?

- It makes me-- well, it makes me happy because I don't have to see all the sadness, and I wanted it to be better.

Things were hard enough for him where he was in his daily routine, from the time he got up to the time he went to bed.

To me it was almost like he was in a-a slave camp.

I don't know if other people see that but to me, he was in a slave camp where they owned him basically.

They owned his house, they owned his everything he got.

His food, his tools.

He had to work from sunup to sun down to pay for what little bit he got.

Lise: Right.

- But he felt he was-- Henry made a comment that he felt that his father was taking care of them, because he kept the roof over their head.

Lise: Which is what a lot of men felt in that scenario in that day.

Gloria: He felt if he was feeding his children and keeping the roof over their head, then it didn't matter how many hours a day he had to work.

Which projects a very strong individual who is dedicated to taking care of his family, no matter what.

Lise: Well as you say this, I’m feeling this sense of redemption at this point in time.

Were you feeling that in that moment?

Were you thinking this is what I’ve been looking for?

This redeems his memory, he's a better man than.

Gloria: Yeah, because I-I know he did care about them, or he wouldn't have been faithful to work.

Lise: That's true, not work of that level.

- He was so faithful even though he had the drinking problem, he was very faithful to get up every day, start that day, and work till the sun went down.

Lise: And do it all over again- - And do it all over again.

Lise: six days a week.

- Six days a week.

Lise: Yeah, so in the process of this, you discover perhaps your grandmother was unfaithful.

Gloria: Yeah.

- Does that take away any of this feeling of redemption for William?

I mean how does that play into this?

Does it change your memories of her?

- No, because I can understand how when your husband's gone for 16-- you know, 14-16 hours a day, you're stuck in that four walls and believe me, looking at those lumber camp houses they were not beautiful houses.

She did not have a wealthy nice mansion to live in.

It was bare minimum.

Those houses were not insulated.

It would have been very cold, even though you were burning wood and stuff to keep warm.

There was no insulation in those houses, and the floors were just wood.

You know, it'd been very hard to keep clean.

Lise: You have an uncanny ability to put yourself in your relative's shoes.

Even in the lumber mill, you heard the machine come on and you said, Can you imagine at the end of the day that roar wouldn't stop.

Have you always had that aspect of your nature.

Gloria: No.

I think a lot of that I learned when I married.

Lise: Really?

- When you start out your life and you have no money, and you are scrounging, and I have this uncanny ability to be able to take old things and make it-- recycle.

Lise: [laughs] Yes.

- And I kind of inherited that I think, because I’m good at it.

And I can take something old and, and it's just like one of the churches we went to, we didn't have any tables or chairs.

Well, I took cable reels and made tables and stools.

Big-- great big cable reels, and the small ones so I have a way of being creative.

Lise: Yes.

Which is a wonderful thing.

- Yeah.

- You-- speaking of being creative, you've heard two sides of a story.

One was that he was beaten to death, then you read in the newspaper that he had a heart attack, and then finally the coroner's report says something completely different.

Heat exhaustion due to drinking wine excessively.

What story do you believe at this point in the journey?

Gloria: At this point I have a little bit of doubt.

I know what the death certificate says, but I still have this little bit of doubt about the way he died because of the way Henry talked about the death.

Lisa: Mm-hm.

- There was a land transaction going on involving land and oil and- Lise: So there were other things happening that you think could have colored-- so you're not sure at this point how it really happened.

Gloria: I-I have a tendency to lean toward the death certificate.

I’m not going to say it's not right, but then there are family members who really, really in their heart believe that there's something shady about it.

- Alright.

You think you start redeeming William's memory and you do.

Um, at this point in the story there's still some unanswered questions though.

Why is your grandfather, William David the way he was?

You haven’t-- other than the work situation, you haven't really defined that, and how can you redeem him further?

That's still a part of your plan at this point, right?

Gloria: Right.

- So in this next segment, you meet a very unusual individual.

A very colorful man, George Martin.

And I think that's an apt description of George.

He is the last living grandchild of Tom Martin, your great-grandfather, who was William David's dad.

And this was an interesting segment.

We'll talk about it after we see it, okay?

Gloria: Okay.

- Okay.

Let's watch.

♪♪ Gloria's great-grandfather Tom Martin was born in Texas in 1859.

When he was 19, he married and eventually had four children.

He raised his family in the rough mill town environment where he worked as a laborer, eventually moving up the ranks to the position of grader.

Inspecting the quality of the lumber produced at the mill.

One of Tom's grandchildren, George Martin, is one of the few surviving people who remembers Tom.

Gloria has arranged to meet with George in order to find out what kind of person Tom was, and how he might have influenced her grandfather, William David.

Gloria: I would like to ask you about my gra-- well I guess he would be my great-grandfather, Tom.

Do you know what his middle name was?

There was an A on the birth certificate that I saw, but I didn't have the name.

No, what was his middle name really?

- George.

What w-- do you know his middle name?

George: No.

Gloria: Okay, you didn't know it.

All right.

Was he close to family members?

Did you all get together a lot?

- Well most the Martin's did.

- Most of the Martins did.

Okay.

Did he ever play a guitar or a banjo or anything like that?

- The what?

- Oh.

- Oh that's not nice.

- [laughs] Okay.

Well, tell me a story about Tom.

Just tell me a good story you remember about him.

- Okay tell me something about him so that I know what kind of person he was.

Gloria: Okay.

Gloria: Hm.

- Oh my.

- Oh man.

- Really?

- Oh my.

So would you say Tom was really kind of the bad boy-- I mean really what would you call them back then?

- A Martin, okay.

Well, all the Martins couldn't have been bad.

I-I really believe there's got to be some good ones somewhere.

- Temper, did they have hot tempers?

Okay.

- Okay.

- Okay, so they didn’t learn to- ♪♪ Gloria: Well he's a typical Martin, um and he was kind of crude in his mannerisms.

Well, I learned that my great-grandfather Tom was the kind of man that if he thought you offended him for any reason he'd shoot you.

Literally kill you.

Well if-- I wonder if Tom's dad did the same thing?

He actually-- if you offended him he'd shoot you and kill you right there.

I hope not.

I don't know yet.

But I hope not.

Lise: Tom Martin's father, Gloria's great-great-grandfather, was David King Martin who also lived and died in Texas, and was buried in Fred, Texas at Frank's Branch Cemetery.

In hopes of finding clues as to how her great-great-grandfather might have influenced the life of her grandfather, Gloria is visiting with cemetery overseer, Raymond Holland, who is showing her David King's grave.

- This one here is your-- Tom's father.

- It's who?

Raymond: Tom's father.

Gloria: That's Tom's father?

Raymond: That's Reverend D. K. Martin.

- So he's one of my grandfathers?

- Right.

- Oh wow.

He died as he lived, a Christian.

Raymond: He-he-- I’ve got some information we've got on the old church here.

It says in here in the late 1920s, they hired him.

Mount Olivette Baptist church hired him.

Gloria: Ah, wow, that's neat.

That's great, that’s great.

I hate to cry but it makes me feel good.

[sniffs] Wow.

I’m so glad.

Surely he reached some of them you think?

- Yes, he did, he did.

He-he reached some of them.

- Wow, that's great.

I-I didn't think I’d react this way, but that's good.

[sniffs] Lise: Much like Gloria today, David King Martin was a circuit preacher who helped establish many churches in southeast Texas, and in the 1920s he delivered the first sermon in the then-newly-renovated Mount Olivette chapel.

Raymond: You'd like to go see the church where he preached?

- I’ve got to see the inside, I sure do.

- Okay.

- That's good.

I've heard so much bad stuff.

Singer: ♪ Amazing Grace How sweet the sound ♪ ♪ That saved a wretch like me!

♪ ♪ I once was lost... ♪ - Yeah, this is, I-I feel like I’m walking in his footsteps.

I-I feel like uh-- I’m doing what he did, and that's awesome.

To think he preached here.

I'll bet he was a hellfire preacher.

[laughs] Had a lot of people that needed to hear that kind of thing around here, especially my relatives and his relatives.

I wonder.

I'll bet you he worried about a few of them.

And this is wonderful.

I just can't imagine.

♪ I once was lost, but now I’m found, ♪ ♪ was blind, but now I see.

♪ Well as I was walking through the church and thinking about it, I could almost hear him up there, you know, and he was imploring the people to examine themselves and uh, and to think about their souls and everything about themselves, and I also uh-- I had this good spirit that was there that I uh, I-I just felt really happy and it was kind of uplifting to know that my grandfather preached here, and he was a righteous man.

David K. Martin, he's in heaven today, and I’m looking forward to meeting him.

One of these days I will.

I’ll be-- I’m looking forward to that.

Lise: Now that Gloria knows that David King was a preacher and believes him to be a praiseworthy man, she wants to find out how his son, Tom, could have become a drunk and a murderer.

She hopes that, in turn, this might help her understand why William David became a drunk himself.

♪♪ Gloria is meeting with Trish Parsons, also a descendant of David King, to find out why David King and his son, Tom, lived such different lives.

Gloria: Since 2004.

Trish: Oh, we’ve been doing it like 35 years.

Gloria: Oh my goodness, I am so excited.

I found out and went to the cemetery and uh, found the headstone and uh, he told me that was my great-great-grandfather, and I was so glad.

I was so happy, and God didn't forget us, you know, and then I got to go stand where his pulpit was and uh, it's just, it made me feel really good and I’m so glad.

But I-- I don't know what happened, what happened with his son?

I don't understand.

My great-grandfather.

What happened?

Trish: Well to start with, Joh-- Tom always had a problem with drinking.

If you go back through the Beach Creek Cemetery minutes, he got throwed out of the church several times for drunken and disorderly conduct.

Grandpa literally-- I mean literally threw him out of the church.

Lise: When Tom was 18, he was already at odds with his father.

But the situation severely worsened when two of Tom's younger brothers died.

For reasons unknown, David King blamed Tom's mother, Mary, for their son's deaths.

Trish: And-- that story goes they died of diphtheria, and they died the same day, June the 10th of 1887.

And David King blamed Mary Durham, his first wife for their death and so he put her out, and he took the children with him.

Gloria: But she wouldn't have had anything to do with it really, that's just diphtheria.

Trish: Well, that just goes to show you the different sides of the coin too, because I heard at one time they drowned.

Now I could understand him being bitter with her if they drowned thinking that she wasn't watching them.

Gloria: But not diphtheria.

Well what happened to Tom?

He was so- Trish: Well, on her death bed, she crawled down the road to his house and begged him to let her see those children one last time, and he told her no.

And she crawled off down the road ditch about a mile and died.

- Oh.

- And Tom blamed him for it, so he packed his belongings, and he took off.

- Oh no.

Trish: And- Gloria: That is so sad though what he did.

He should have had some mercy and at least let her- Trish: Right.

Gloria: see those kids.

- Well evidently, and of course there's two sides to every story you know.

We don't know what she did to deserve what-- the way he treated her.

- I know, you know I’m finding that out.

I could understand a little bit of-of w-- his ideas and why he felt the way he did.

♪♪ Lise: So according to Trish, Mary visited David King and asked him to let her see the children.

David King said no, and Mary died on her way home.

Tom blamed his father for his mother's death and moved away, cutting himself off from his father and his father's income.

♪♪ Tom eventually found a job as a laborer in the lumber industry.

There he was exposed to working conditions and companions that likely encouraged his already-existing drinking habits.

♪♪ Gloria: Alcohol makes people do things they wouldn't normally do if they weren't under the influence, and Tom had the anger that he inherited from his father, of course, and so I really understand why Tom basically cut his self off from the fellowship of God.

♪♪ And i-it really had nothing to do with his da-- what his dad did.

He took a stand and made the choice to say that I’m going the other way.

He had that choice, and he took it.

And he became a bitter and an angry person, and really a violent person, which is sad.

So I can see how now with his-- with Tom, the way he was, that William David it's natural to pick up and imitate a lot of what you're taught in your home.

But I always missed not knowing my dad's side of the family.

It was like something was missing in me.

And now I-I’m, I’m starting to get this feeling of belonging to that side of the family now and I’m excited about that, because I think from here on out I can have friends and I can get closer to my family.

The good ones that I didn't know were there.

[laughs] It's good to me.

♪♪ Lise: Gloria, when we started this journey you said you felt like there was a hole in your life.

Is this what you're talking about, this understanding of how these men came to be the way they were?

Gloria: I think so, because you know you hear so much of this stuff, bad stuff, but in my heart I just cannot believe that it can be all bad.

There's got to be some good.

And uh, not having known any of them, I didn't have anything to go by, and I know that from doing research on other family members, there's always skeletons in everybody's closet- Lise: That’s right.

- and when I was young, I didn't always do the right things.

It was from inexperience, it was from lack of growth in my knowledge and understanding of God and Him in my life where I had not grown yet.

Things I had not allowed God to take over and change in me.

And so, I ju-- you know we've all fell short of the glory of God it says.

And so, I-I know that-- and maybe they're not lost.

My grandfather knew the word of God.

It was preached to him, and it was preached to his father from my great-great-grandfather.

Lise: Well, in fact, when you learned that David King was a preacher, I saw this light go off in your eyes, and then you had a very strong emotional reaction.

Can you tell me more about what was happening then for you?

- Well in my mind, you know, sometimes you think, Well, has God really forgotten our family?

Because you-- all we're seeing is this bad stuff, and I’m thinking, You know, Lord, how many generations does it go back before you remember us?

You know, sometimes sin in our lives separates us from God, and I’m looking at this family and I’m seeing like God has turned His back on us because they have not had fellowship with God and they have chose to walk another path, and when you take yourself out from under God's protective umbrella, sometimes He lets you suffer the consequences of what you do.

Lise: Well, did you feel like you got any touch, any taste of who David King was as a man?

Because your experience in the church, you said something about he must have reached some of them, and I felt like you were having a real experience with this man, and you were getting to know him personally.

Gloria: Yeah, I do because in the environment that he was in-- in the time frame that he was in, it was hard times.

Lise: Yes.

- They were going through the Depression.

In fact, he died the year of the Depression when the stock market had crashed in '29.

- And so they went out of the Roaring 20s and into this crash where everybody had so much, and then all of a sudden they had nothing, and I think that in the area that he was in it was a farming community.

These people lived off of the land and the hardships-- when one part of the market fails it affects every aspect.

Lise: It trickles down, trickles down.

- It trickles from every single business it just goes right on down the line, and his son picked up in this very same line of work.

Lise: At a very difficult time.

With nothing.

Gloria: As my grandfather, William David did, and from the research we did we found out it was over fifty years he worked in the lumber mills.

Lise: My gosh.

- That's a long time.

- Yeah.

Gloria: William David got married in 1922 and he started working in those same lumber mills as his father did.

Lise: Because that's all he knew.

- And that's all they knew, and I know that Tom-- I don't know what kind of education that Tom had, but I do know that William David had like maybe a fifth-grade education.

He could barely read and write his name and write anything.

The letter I have he made mention that it had been 30 years since he had written a letter, and so his spelling was very rough, and it took me a long time to read those few paragraphs because it was so rough.

Lise: I want to sort of connect all this story together because there's so many complex aspects of your story, and I want to make sure that our viewers really understand everything we're talking about, and I particularly want to know how all of this changed you.

How you're different because of this redemption of the family name as it were.

- I have found people make assumptions that if one's bad, they're all bad and I have found that true in many, many families.

In our ministry we have found that in my husband's own family line, they said that the Squire's name in North Carolina was not a good name because of the same type of thing.

They seem to category-- put everybody in the same category.

Lise: So were you categorized as bad?

I mean I know you had experiences with your father and mother that led you to believe that you were, but outside of your own immediate family were there people that said oh well she's a Martin, she's- Gloria: You know I kind of think that since we've started this journey I’m having this different outlook on my father and what he did.

My dad left Texas to get away from that stigma, the family curse as it was, and I’m really believing that's what the curse was.

When you are in a southern town- Lise: And a small town at that.

- Small town.

Lise: Everybody knows everybody.

- Everybody knows everybody.

They know who does what when and where, and when daddy chose to leave Texas, his brother, Robert, you might as well-- he might as well been a traitor.

He called him that- Lise: Right.

- Yankee.

- How dare he leave the family fold.

Gloria: How dare he leave.

So anyway, I- Lise: Well how has this-- there's so much to talk about.

You and I could talk for six months and never get through it all.

Which is truly a joy.

But I have some really specific questions that I want to answer before we have to wrap this up.

Gloria: Okay.

- Going back to David King, the preacher, and you have this beautiful moment in the church where you sang for us, it was so moving.

Um, did his treatment of his wife change your feelings about him at all?

He turned her away, never let her see her children again.

We certainly don't know the whole story.

Gloria: Right.

I feel like that he had-- he made a judgment.

I don't know what the ins and outs were and I’m sure that whatever he did and how he did it was to protect those children at that time.

Lise: So is that, in a sense, redeeming for you to know this, to feel this sense?

Gloria: Yes, because I-I feel like he was protecting his children.

I don't know the reason.

Lise: And that's a wonderful quality.

- I don't know the reasons.

Lise: Right.

- I thought-- it bothered me a little bit that he did not display mercy because God is merciful to us and him being a pastor.

Lise: Right.

- You know, we are-- we are to imitate Christ in his-- in the way Christ had mercy.

- And in his situation in that difficult moment he was unable to achieve that.

- He was unable to, but there-- he had not healed from his wounds, I don't think, and when we don't heal from our wounds and we don't ask God to help us through that, sometimes it's very difficult.

Lise: Your whole story is about healing- Gloria: Yes.

- family wounds.

I know that learning about Tom's violent nature was a particularly difficult moment.

It was difficult to watch, and of course George has views that I know you don't agree with, I don't agree with, the show doesn't agree with, but nonetheless he had some information to impart.

How will you remember this man, this violent man?

- You know, God has a way of redeeming people, and I almost feel like-- and I have found this in all the Martins, they have this charismatic type personality.

George is very soft spoken even though he does things that are crude.

If God were allowed to come into his life and somebody could reach him and show him a different way to live, George would be phenomenal as a friend and as a person.

- You know we can't get away from something here, and that is the nature of this beautiful beast in front of me.

You have a mission in life to help and to see the good in people.

I think we all want to think that we're improving on the last generation.

I see you taking a stand in a, in a very powerful way, Gloria.

I see you saying it stops with me.

Gloria: Right.

I determined at a very young age that a-- that when, when I saw my father laying in a floor so drunk he could not get up and, and, and smelling and reeking of alcohol, I decided then that my children were not going through the same things that I went through.

Lise: Well let's talk about that, because it's part of this sense of wanting to redeem the family name about carrying something forward that's better for the next generations.

So if it is then, how has it changed your life specifically in the day-to-day, and how has it changed the lives of your children and grandchildren do you think?

- They know that we love them, and there isn't anything I would not do for those kids, and every one of them I have personally taken to church.

Starting with my own children from the time they were born they were in church.

Lise: But that's something you've always done.

- Yes.

- Has this journey imparted something new?

Gloria: Yes, because it-- now that I know the story and I know the directions and the choices they made- Lise: I love that you always say they made choices.

These were choices.

- and the choices they made I can see to it that I-I want to tell this story to my grandchildren.

Lise: Why?

- Because I don't want them making the same mistakes.

Lise: Learn from your ancestors.

- They can-- we can learn from the things they did.

The Bible's written just like this story from David King down to William David.

The Bible's written in the same manner where we see all these people who were human who failed, who got up, started again, and failed and started again and failed and turning to God and God changed them and He walked with them.

He forgave them time after time after time.

Lise: And it's always about change.

Gloria: Yes.

- The woman we saw in the beginning of this was a different woman that I’m seeing today.

Is that true?

Gloria: Mm-hm.

- How?

Happier?

- Well, I’m happier, but I guess I’m glad that I know my life is more successful, and that I have succeeded in something before I even knew about the story.

Lise: You've broken the chain.

- I broke that chain.

Lise: What are you passing on to the next generation because of what you learned here?

- Well, I know the past now and I don't want my grandchildren making the same mistakes.

I want their lives to be better and their children's lives to be better, and if I can tell them the stories and also teach God's redemption as I do it, and teach them that this is not a hereditary thing, this is sin.

Lise: This is choice.

I like how you say these are choices that people made.

- These are choices that we make and that they can make.

And they don't have to walk through the mud in order to get to the other side.

Lise: That's quite a thing to leave for the next generation.

Gloria: Yeah.

They don't have to go through the dirt and the sin and all of that.

- So, did you redeem William David?

- I think so, and I think I got some good things to pass down to the grandkids, and I want them to know the past.

The past is just as important as the future.

Lise: Gloria, I think you have very much succeeded in every moment in your life of breaking the chains of the past.

Gloria: I still have a lot to learn.

- Don't we all?

I’m sure glad you shared this with me today.

Thank you so much.

Gloria: Thank you.

- Absolutely.

Gloria: I’ve learned a lot.

I’ve still got more to learn.

- Me too.

Thanks so much.

Please join us next time for The Generations Project.

♪♪