- Coming up on "American Black Journal," we're taking a look at gospel music's influence on our city, here in Detroit.

We're gonna hear from a local historian about gospel's origin and evolution, plus gospel artists Darius Twyman and Bishop Charles Ellis III of the Greater Grace Temple, talk about Detroit's gospel connection.

And we'll have some special performances from both of them.

Don't go anywhere.

"American Black Journal" starts right now.

- [Male Announcer] From Delta faucets to Behr paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world, experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit Public TV.

- [Female Announcer] The DTE Foundation, proudly supports 50 years of American Black Journal in covering African-American history, culture, and politics.

The DTE Foundation and American Black Journal, partners in presenting African-American perspectives about our communities and in our world.

- [Male Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation, and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat music) - Hey, welcome to American Black Journal.

I'm your host, Stephen Henderson.

The new PBS documentary series, "Gospel," by Henry Louis Gates Jr. examines the rich history of gospel music and its impact on the black church.

You can see the conclusion of the series tonight at 9:00 pm.

Meanwhile, we are exploring Detroit's gospel connection, right here on "American Black Journal."

Let's start with a look at the evolution of gospel music with WMXD Gospel Radio host and historian, Dr. Deborah Smith Pollard.

- It reflects the message that the church is about, which is God loves us, Jesus Christ died for us, salvation is for all of us, and His mercy and grace is what gets us through even when we've not been so good, okay, and even when we're facing tough times.

Now, the other part of it is that the music reflects the creativity of our community.

♪ Lord, I thank you ♪ I thank you for this ♪ Lord, I thank you ♪ I thank you for that ♪ Right about that ♪ Two o'clock in the morning Chicago is, of course, called the birthplace of it, because that's where Thomas Dorsey, Mahalia Jackson, and so many others came together, or they were situated there.

♪ I've been falling and writhing all these years ♪ ♪ But you know my soul But when the convention, the National Convention of Gospel Choirs and Choruses, started in the 1930s, the third year after they were formed, they were here in Detroit, and Detroit embraced it.

It goes back to even as early as the 1800s, the 19th century is where we had basically a split in the black church.

To this day, there are churches that are like, "Whoa, okay, this is kind of a lot.

We can have the softer kind, the quieter kind, but not that kind where people are clapping and playing tambourines and moving a lot."

They don't want that kind.

So this idea that every black church does everything the same way, no, that's not true.

♪ What a happy day ♪ What a happy day ♪ What a happy day ♪ What a happy day ♪ When Jesus was When Edwin Hawkins brought in "Oh Happy Day," oh my goodness, oh my goodness.

He had an interview in a book with Dr. Bobby Jones, and he talks about how people came from the church, and said, "People are dancing to your song in clubs, how dare you?

That's not sacred."

And of course, again, today, it seems to be quite traditional.

So then we move on to Kirk Franklin, and trust me, in a minute, there's gonna be somebody else, 'cause we have gospel trap.

"Gospel, oh no, they can't go together."

Well, because the music comes from the community, okay?

It's not born in church.

Let's just even say, we think about Twinkie Clark, and "You Brought the Sunshine," she wasn't supposed to be listening to secular music, but she loves Stevie Wonder.

She heard reggae, she included reggae with that one, and that song just, to this day is one of the most beloved songs we have.

So it reflects the gospel.

She says, "You know, won't he open doors for you?"

I'm talking about Jesus.

I mean, part of the lyrics in there still reflects the message, but the sound, the instrumentation changes over time.

♪ La la la la la la la la la - Let's party.

♪ He taught me how - Some people are like, "We want to sing quietly.

We want to sound, let's just say more European."

And then there are others that, "We wanna be ourselves."

And so there was that split.

So there is, I wanna say, yeah, there continues to be that kind of dichotomy.

And then even layers within the dichotomy, just because some people think that a quieter sound is what we should reflect to show that we have what to them "Evolved," okay?

And to other people, it's like, "We want to sing the way that it reflects who we are."

And we have a range of sound.

In my first book, "When the Church Becomes Your Party," the last chapter is about Christian rap, you know?

And so I talk about how, in some ways, people could just step back before they say, "Oh, that's not what we are."

Okay, so there was an article I wrote, which is like, "The ladies have on all their clothes," 'cause I asked these young people, "What makes gospel rap different from rap?"

And they said, "women have on all their clothes, okay?"

Which just made me fall out laughing.

I said, "Okay, that's gonna be part of a title."

Okay, so besides that point, certainly, again, the message is in place, the message of Jesus Christ.

♪ God is ♪ God is ♪ He is Play whatever you need, sing whatever you need to sing, you know, as long as that message is getting out, it's still the gospel, and that's okay.

♪ No - The Winans, Mattie Moss Clark, the Clark Sisters, and of course, Aretha Franklin.

The list of gospel artists who have strong roots here in Detroit is long and it continues to grow.

In conjunction with the PBS celebration of gospel, Detroit Performs: Live from Marygrove, produced two gospel-themed episodes with hosts Satori Shakur and Bridge Detroit's Orlando Bailey.

Here's a portion of their conversation with Detroit gospel artist, Darius Twyman, along with his performance of "Made It Over."

- Growing up- - Yes.

- In the city of Detroit, for me, in the late '80s and into the '90s, in the church- - Okay.

- In the black church, in particular, you cannot have grown up in the era that I've grown up and not have heard of your name or have not experienced you.

- [Darius] Bless you, bless you.

- How do you hear that?

How do you receive that?

- It's really humbling because, you know, we can be great in our minds and really not great.

And for others to tell you that something that I've written, that God has given me, has been impactful.

I had an opportunity once I was standing in a store, and a gentleman walked up to me and he said, "Hey, you're Darius Twyman?"

I said, "No," 'cause I didn't know if I had owed him money or something, so I didn't wanna say yeah.

You can't say yeah too quick.

He was like, "No, man, you're Darius."

I was like, "Yeah, man, I'm Darius."

And he was like, "Man, that song that you wrote called 'Coming Soon.'"

I said, "Yeah."

He said, "Man, listen, I almost took my life, until I heard that song.

It changed me.

It made me wanna get my life right, because if God came back, I wasn't ready, so I had to get ready."

And those are the little things.

You know, I'm not trying to reach everybody.

I got an audience of one because I'm like, my mindset is that if it's a team sport, when you got a basketball team, you got one ball, and everybody's passing it and passing it, but only one person can take a shot at a time.

And you only get one goal.

And if you hit the goal, everybody wins because it's a team sport.

And that's what this is.

This is a team situation, trying to reach one.

If each one can reach one, I believe we can make another one better.

So to hear my name as a child, I'm humbled.

To hear my name as an adult, I'm humbled, because I don't take it for granted.

- I wanna hear you talk about Detroit, right?

- Yes.

- And you know, its place.

I heard PJ Morton describe it as a modern Mecca for gospel music.

How do you see it?

- That's a dangerous question for me.

Gospel music, again, is not like it was when I came up.

So, but then I have to understand that what I contributed to gospel music was not what my mentors had at first either.

So I had to be open to what God has given the new generation.

So gospel music in the city of Detroit, is the foundation of music across the country, why?

Because gospel music was birthed here.

And what do I mean by that?

Yes, you have Thomas Dorsey, who is the father of gospel music in terms of hymns.

You have James Cleveland, but they all came to Detroit to figure out how to do it.

The Gospel Music Workshop of America was started by D.K.

Craig.

He passed away and James Cleveland took the vision, and then ran with it.

And so now, he's considered the founder of the Gospel Music Workshop of America, but he didn't have the dream.

Just as if Martin Luther King had wrote the speech and then somebody else gave it, he still would have been the dreamer, and then it would continue.

So therefore, it's now still continuing, because you have Dr. Matty Moss Clark.

But before Dr. Matty Moss Clark, you had an Elmer Hendricks Parham, who owned a little record store on the corner of Oakland and Owen in the city on the North side.

- In the North end.

- North end, right?

- Yeah.

- And so Elmer and Carl's was the foundation where before there was a gospel, where you would go and get your music.

I was four years old.

She picked me up, I wasn't full 36 at the time.

(Orlando laughs) She picked me up, sat me on the counter, and said, "You're gonna be a great musician."

So that's what I am in terms of gospel music today.

I was spoken into.

She spoke that into my life at four years old.

I didn't know what she was talking about, but my mama and my big mama knew.

And so they made sure that the culture was available for me to sit in and that I was cultivated and groomed.

And then God gave me a gift and an anointing.

And so from there, that's what Detroit music is for me.

It's the cultivation, it's the whirlwind.

'Cause when you hear a Kirk Franklin song, you hear Thomas Whitfield.

When you hear a Donald Lawrence song, you hear Thomas Whitfield.

When you hear a commission, when you hear a Joe or Boyz II Men, you hear commission and the Whines.

Everybody got a little bit of the gumbo from Detroit.

They might not wanna claim it, but we gave it and we put it out there.

And it's still here in the city.

And you have artists like Kevin Stewart and Mark J., and all these other young guys.

And you got Kiera, you got folk that are shifting and bringing this new generation to us.

I just asked them, "Don't forget about me.

Let me come and sing."

I open up for them now.

I'm the old school, I'm the OG.

But that's what gospel music is for me here in the city of Detroit.

- What is "Made It Over" about?

- "Made It Over."

Well, without being too deep, I work in an environment that's a little different from some situations.

I'm a counselor and an advisor at a college here in Detroit.

And I'm the first and only African-American male counselor that they've ever had in history of that school.

And being that, sometimes, I sit in my office by myself, and right prior to COVID, I was in a situation where I didn't really wanna be bothered with nobody but me.

And so I was sitting in my office, and God began to deal with me.

And I wrote seven songs in two days in that office.

And it was only on my lunch breaks because I was working.

And I wrote seven songs on my phone, went home, put the full music to it.

And I wanted to be an encouragement to one of my students who was kind of going through something.

And I was like, "What do you mean?

You're not gonna make it.

We've already made it, we're overcomers."

And so I said, "How we made it over, how we were set free.

Sometimes we were in darkness, but yet we still walked in victory.

We need to be grateful for our covering from dangers unseen.

Thank you, Lord, for keeping me."

And so that's what "Made It Over" is.

It's about being kept by the grace of God, and just knowing that we all have something in common, whether your struggle is this or that, at the end of the day, the victory is yours, but only if you believe.

♪ He keeps on keeping me ♪ Keeps on keeping me I need everybody in the building to say that with me, come on.

♪ Said he keeps on keeping me ♪ Keeps on keeping me ♪ How we made it over ♪ How we were set free ♪ Sometimes we were in darkness ♪ ♪ But walked in victory ♪ I'm grateful for your covering ♪ ♪ From dangers unseen ♪ Thank you, Lord, for keeping me ♪ ♪ Thank you, Lord, for keep ♪ 'Cause he keeps on keeping me ♪ ♪ Keeps on keeping me ♪ Everybody clap your hands right there, hey ♪ ♪ I said he keeps on keeping me ♪ ♪ Keeps on keeping me ♪ Hey, da-da-da-da-da ♪ We made it over, hey ♪ How we made it over ♪ Everybody clap your hands ♪ How we were set free ♪ Sometimes we were in darkness ♪ ♪ But we walked in victory ♪ I'm grateful for your covering ♪ ♪ From dangers unseen ♪ Thank you, Lord, for keeping me ♪ ♪ 'Cause he keeps on keeping me ♪ ♪ Keeps on keeping me ♪ Do I have a witness ♪ Do I have a witness, say ♪ He keeps on keeping me ♪ Keeps on keeping me ♪ Say it one more time, say how we made it ♪ ♪ How we made it over ♪ How we were set free ♪ Sometimes we were in darkness ♪ ♪ Da-da-da-da-da ♪ We walked in victory ♪ I'm grateful for your covering ♪ ♪ From dangers unseen ♪ Thank you, Lord, for keeping me ♪ ♪ 'Cause he keeps on keeping me ♪ ♪ Keeps on keeping me ♪ Hey ♪ Keeps on keeping me ♪ This is my testimony ♪ Say he ♪ Kept me ♪ When I could not keep myself ♪ Kept me ♪ It was Jesus and nobody else ♪ Kept me - Satori and Orlando also spoke with a member of American Black Journal's Black Church in Detroit Advisory Panel, Bishop Charles Ellis III of Greater Grace Temple.

Here's some of that conversation, along with a clip of Bishop Ellis singing an original song, titled "Done For Me."

- Of course, we cannot talk to you and talk about Greater Grace without talking about the visionary that is your father, Bishop David Ellis.

Talk about what your dad built, started, and what it means to you to carry it on.

- Well, Greater Grace is almost 100 years in 2027.

I only had three pastors.

One for 35 years, Bishop Forbes, who started it in his home, and then my dad pastored for 34 years.

And now, I'm coming up on 28 years now, in this coming March.

So that's a blessing just to have consistency in leadership.

You know, there's some ministries that have to get used to new leadership.

And when new leadership comes in, changes come.

So it's a blessing that almost in 100 years, this church has had three pastors, and it's almost evenly split, 30 something years, 30 something years.

And hopefully, the Lord will allow me to serve for 30 something years.

And I'm just honored to be here.

But my dad, he was the builder of the church.

- Yeah.

- Those 34 years, that was when the church went from like 60 members to like 2,000 members.

And we built the cathedral onto the synagogue down on seven mile and Schaefer where Bishop Sheard is now.

So, my dad was a great, he was a great man, charismatic man, loved people.

- Singer.

- He wasn't just a preacher.

I'm getting ready to say, this is all about music, and gospel music in Detroit.

He was a singer.

He actually recorded twice.

He recorded with Ty Scott Records, and he recorded with our church.

And those songs are still played today, "Joy Bells."

- "Joy Bells."

- And "Down Through The Years."

- That's it.

- Absolutely.

(Orlando laughs) And thank God for YouTube, you know what I'm saying?

- Yeah, yeah, because the legacy lives on.

- Absolutely.

- Yes, absolutely.

- Never dies.

- Never dies.

- And how did gospel music change over those, over that 100 year period, 30, 30, 30 years?

- Well, all you have to do is if you would have interviewed Edwin Hawkins and Walter Hawkins, they would say, "We almost got put out the church."

And we wasn't foot stepping and sliding and dipping and all of that.

We were just saying, "Oh, happy day.

Oh, happy day."

And hey, and had the nerve to put Jesus's name in it.

- Jesus washed, straight.

- Now people always say, "Well, they don't mention Jesus enough."

You know, they had, when Jesus washed all my sins away and almost got put out of the church.

So we've seen gospel music come a long ways.

Now, you have gospel artists recording with secular artists.

You know, you have Snoop Dogg now, recording.

He's got what, Fred Hammond, the Clark Sisters, and Bishop Ransay Alain, God bless his memory, you know, recorded with him.

And the Hawkins probably said, "Somebody owes us an apology."

- Do you feel like each generation sort of has that, like those champions, right, to help modernize it?

I remember coming up, Kirk Franklin was not to be played, at the church house.

And I was coming up in the '90s, but I would remember, it was like, you know, the Clark Sisters and the Winans, you know, all these folks who helped modernize and help gospel music sort of crossover, were at one point, really controversial figures.

- Without a doubt.

You know, the Clark Sisters, you know, they were always gospel until Twinkie wrote, "You Brought the Sunshine" and put that Stevie Wonder kick.

♪ Da-doom, da-doom, da-doom Hey, that sound like that blind boy to be, Stevie Wonder.

You can't play that in church.

And you think about those trendsetters, you know, and certainly, probably goes way back before that, Thomas Dorsey and a lot of others, you know, when you think of Louis Armstrong singing, "Oh, When the Saints Come Marching In," you know, with that Louisiana ragtime type of presentation, you know, somebody has always had to push the envelope, you know, to get us where we are.

- We all have souls.

- Absolutely, absolutely.

- And the music reaches, it's magic.

- I always think about Aretha Franklin's father, the Reverend C.L.

Franklin, one of the greatest prolific, you know, hoopers and preachers in the church world.

- Absolutely.

- And when he says that- - Who's a hooper?

- A hooper is one that gets in gear with an organ behind him.

- That's it.

♪ When When the preacher goes into music.

- You can say, ♪ Every now and then or you can say.

♪ Every now and then - Oh, come on.

- Go ahead, bishop.

- And then you step back, and then the organ's like.

♪ Dun, dun, dun, dun ♪ The Lord will come Yeah, but he said, when the lady at the cleaner said- - He's got it, Bishop Ellis, you forgot about us.

Okay, okay, okay.

- You taught us.

- I'm sorry.

- No, but I love his statement, when the lady at the cleaner says, "You know, yeah, I saw your daughter on TV, the Ed Sullivan show, but I'll be glad when she comes back to the church."

And he said, "Let me tell you something.

Aretha ain't never left the church."

- She come home.

- And I love those statements, because God blesses us sometimes to go into spaces where everybody can't go.

- My last question for you is about the enduring legacy of gospel music, and especially, here in the city of Detroit and what you hope for it to become.

- I would hope that Detroit would continue to be a beacon of gospel music in this industry and in this time.

I know LA is gonna, they're gonna claim theirs and Chicago's gonna claim its, and Atlanta's gonna claim its, but before Atlanta became a black Mecca, a capital, you know, Atlanta, Detroit was the place.

If Detroit had more community choirs and church choirs, that really had the sound and had the quality to perform nationally, and as we call it on wax, on albums, but just never did.

But shoot, that's why it was hard to get a paid concert in Detroit at the Ford Auditorium, because you can go to any church on a Sunday, and hear a church choir rocking a house, no if, ands, and buts about it.

So I would hope that one of the legacies would be, you know, whenever you talk about gospel music, Detroit always comes up.

♪ What he's done for me ♪ What he's done for me ♪ I just got to tell you what the Lord has done for me ♪ ♪ He loosed my shackles, and he set me free ♪ ♪ I just got to tell you what the Lord has done for me ♪ Help me choir.

♪ What he's done for me ♪ What he's done for me ♪ What he's done for me ♪ I just got to tell you ♪ I just got to tell you ♪ What the Lord has done ♪ What the Lord has done for me ♪ ♪ Loosed my shackles ♪ And he loosed my shackles ♪ Set me free ♪ And he set me free ♪ I just got to tell you ♪ I just got to tell you ♪ What the Lord has done ♪ What the Lord has done for me ♪ Let me tell you what it is.

♪ When sin had me out ♪ Jesus took me in ♪ When I felt all alone ♪ He became my best friend ♪ And now he's right here with me ♪ ♪ Through the thick and the thin ♪ ♪ And I just got to tell you ♪ What the lord has done for me ♪ ♪ He lifted me up ♪ When I was feeling low ♪ And I heard them doorbells ♪ Ringing down in my soul ♪ I just wanna tell everybody ♪ And whole world wide to know ♪ I just got to tell you what the Lord has done for me ♪ I brought Paul Porter to sing this.

Talk to me, Paul.

- Yes sir.

♪ He brought me out at Monterey Clay ♪ ♪ And he set my feet on side of the road to stay ♪ ♪ And he put a song in my soul today ♪ ♪ And I just got to tell you ♪ What the Lord had done for me ♪ ♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh ♪ What's he's done for me ♪ Oh, what he's done for me ♪ I just got to tell you ♪ I just got to tell you ♪ What he's done for me ♪ What he's done for me - And we wanna invite you to take part in American Black Journal's Gospel Watch Party on Thursday, February 15th at 7:00 pm on Facebook and on YouTube.

Get in on the conversation about Detroit's rich gospel music history with our panel of gospel musicians, writers, producers, and historians.

Before we say goodbye today, we wanna acknowledge three African-American trailblazers that we recently lost.

Radio host and civil rights activist Joe Madison, was known as the Black Eagle.

He brought his passion for justice to the airwaves, and commentaries on race and politics in America.

Madison's radio career began in Detroit in 1980, and he was a frequent guest on this show.

He made history as the youngest executive director of the Detroit NAACP at the age of 24.

Madison was 74 when he died.

Actor Carl Weathers was best known for his role as boxer Apollo Creed in the "Rocky" movies, but you may also remember him as the star of the 1988 film that was set right here in Detroit titled "Action Jackson."

The former football player passed away at the age of 76.

And Detroit lost a tireless cheerleader for the city with the death of University of Detroit Titan legend and former Detroit Piston, Earl Cureton.

The 12-year NBA veteran served as community ambassador for the Pistons.

He also worked in the broadcast booth for the Detroit Mercy Games.

Curitan was 66 years old.

All of us at American Black Journal and Detroit Public Television offer our condolences and salute these three men for their contributions to black history.

That's gonna do it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guests at americanblackjournal.org.

Plus you can connect with us anytime on social media.

Take care, and we'll see you next time.

- [Male Announcer] From Delta faucets to Behr paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world, experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit Public TV.

- [Female Announcer] The DTE Foundation, proudly supports 50 years of American Black Journal in covering African-American history, culture, and politics.

The DTE Foundation and American Black Journal, partners in presenting African-American perspectives about our communities and in our world.

- [Male Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation, and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(gentle music)