>>> A NEW BENCHMARK FOR GETTING BACK TO NORMAL.

CAPTIONS PROVIDED BY WOSU-TV, THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY >>> JOINING US ON "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" THIS WEEK, SHANNON JONES, FORMER STATE LEGISLATOR.

ANNA STAVER, STATEHOUSE REPORTER FOR THE "COLUMBUS DISPATCH."

AND DERRICK CLAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST.

GOVERNOR DeWINE SAYS WE ARE AT THE END OF A GRUELING MARATHON.

BUT AS MARATHONERS KNOW, THE FINAL MILES ARE NOT FUN.

SO TO HELP OHIOANS FIND THE END OF THE COVID PANDEMIC THE GOVERNOR HAS MARKED US A FINISH LINE.

>> THAT WHEN OHIO GETS DOWN TO 50 CASES PER 100,000 PEOPLE FOR TWO WEEKS ALL HEALTH ORDERS IN THE STATE WILL COME OFF.

NOW, CASES PER 100,000 PEOPLE FOR A TWO-WEEK PERIOD IS A STANDARD MEASURE, A MEASURE THAT WE'VE USED SINCE EARLY IN THE PANDEMIC.

WE SHOW THESE NUMBERS EVERY WEEK AT OUR PRESS CONFERENCES.

ACHIEVING THIS GOAL IS VERY DOABLE.

WE CAN DO THIS.

>> WE DO HAVE A WAYS TO GO.

WE'RE AT NEARLY FOUR TIMES THAT NOW, AT FOUR TIMES THAT NOW.

ONLY ONE COUNTY IN THE STATE, THE RURAL AMISH HOLMES COUNTY, IS JUST BELOW 50 CASES PER ANNA STAVER, I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED.

EARLY IN THE PANDEMIC THE GOVERNOR SAYS WE SHOULDN'T LOOK AT CASES BECAUSE WE WERE NOT DOING ENOUGH TESTING BACK THEN.

HE SAID DON'T LOOK AT CASE, LOOK AT HOSPITALIZATIONS, THAT WOULD BE OUR BAROMETER TO SEE HOW WELL WE'RE DOING.

BUT NOW WE'RE BACK TO USING CASES.

WHAT HAS CHANGED?

>> WELL, I THINK YOU SAID IT CORRECTLY.

TESTING.

WE'RE DOING SUBSTANTIALLY MORE TESTING NOWADAYS.

WE'RE ALSO GETTING A LOT MORE VACCINATION.

SO I THINK WHAT THE GOVERNOR IS TRYING TO DO IS PUT A PIN ON WHERE WE CAN BE WHEN WE LIFT THE MASK MANDATES, IN PART BECAUSE TEXAS AND MISSISSIPPI AND OTHER MORE CONSERVATIVE STATES ARE LIFTING THEIR RESTRICTIONS ALREADY AND THERE'S BEEN CALLS TO ELIMINATE OUR MASK MANDATE FROM SOME OF THOSE WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY.

AND I THINK HE'S TRYING TO GIVE PEOPLE -- I DON'T WANT TO SAY HE'S PLACATING THEM BECAUSE DONATE THINK THAT'S WHAT HE'S DOING.

I THINK HE'S TRYING TO GIVE PEOPLE A LINE IN THE SAND OR LIKE YOU SAID IN YOUR OPENING AN END GOAL WHERE WE CAN ALL AGREE THIS IS WHEN OUR MASK MANDATE WILL LIFT.

AND IT'S TRICKY BECAUSE THE CDC HASN'T COME OUT WITH ANYTHING YET.

THEY DON'T HAVE A GUIDELINE THAT SAYS THIS MANY CASES YOU SHOULD LIFT YOUR MASK MANDATE.

THEY HAVE -- THE DOCTORS AT THE CDC HAVE SAID WHAT TEXAS AND MISSISSIPPI ARE DOING IS TOO SOON.

BUT THERE ISN'T A CLEAR DEFINITION, AT LEAST ONE THAT I COULD FIND, IN REGARDS TO WHEN IT WOULD BE SAFE TO START TAKING OFF YOUR MASK.

>> SHANNON JONES, AS EARLY AS MONDAY, THIS PAST MONDAY THE GOVERNOR'S HEALTH ADVISER SAID THAT WE'LL TAKE OFF THE MASKS, ELIMINATE THE MASK MANDATE WHEN WE GET TO HERD IMMUNITY.

MOST EXPERTS SAY THAT'S 70% TO 8 O'-0% OF FOLKS HAVE EITHER HAD COVID OR HAVE BEEN VACCINATED.

IS THIS A REALISTIC NUMBER?

50 CASES PER 100,000.

WILL THAT GET US TO HERD IMSNUNT WILL THAT HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME, DO YOU THINK?

SHANNON.

>> I DON'T KNOW.

BUT I DO THINK THERE'S A LOT OF OPTIMISM.

I MEAN, NOW BECAUSE WE ARE FOCUSED BACK ON THE NUMBER OF CASES IT'S ALLOWING US TO SEE A TREND OVER TIME.

SO WE KNOW IN DECEMBER WHERE THOSE -- YOU KNOW, THOSE ISSUES WERE REALLY HIGH.

WE HAD A LOT OF CASES.

WE WATCHED IT GO DOWN.

AND WHILE WE STILL HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO, I THINK WE'RE SEEING PROGRESS.

AND JUST SEEING THE PROGRESS IS REALLY HELPFUL.

THEN WHEN YOU ADD THE VACCINATION ON TOP OF THAT, WHETHER OR NOT THOSE THINGS CORRESPOND I REALLY CAN'T TELL BUT I THINK FOLKS ARE FEELING A LOT MORE OPTIMISTIC THAT THERE IS AN OUT STRATEGY.

>> DERRICK CLAY, IS THIS -- THE GOVERNOR HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRYING TO PLEASE EVERYBODY, TRYING TO PLEASE BOTH SIDES.

THE FAR RIGHT CONSERVATIVES WHO SAY HE'S DOING TOO MUCH.

THE FAR LEFT FOLKS WHO ARE SAYING HE SHUT EVERYTHING DOWN UNTIL IT'S COMPLETELY GONE.

HE'S TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO BASICALLY WEAR MASKS UNTIL WE KNOW WE'RE SAFE.

IS THIS A GOOD STRATEGY, TO HAVE A LITTLE BENCHMARK OUT THERE EVEN IF IT'S UNCLEAR, A LITTLE FUZZY?

>> FIRST OFF, EVERYBODY SHOULD BE WEARING THEIR MASKS.

I THINK THE GOVERNOR HAS REALLY TRIED TO -- TRIED TO BE FAIR IN HOW HE'S APPROACHED THE COVID RESPONSE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN WE SHUT DOWN THE STATE A YEAR AGO AND PUT RESTRICTIONS IN PLACE, YOU KNOW, NOBODY REALLY KNEW ABOUT WHAT THE DISEASE WAS GOING TO DO OR THE VIRUS WAS GOING TO DO.

AND SO WE WERE IN A DIFFERENT TIME.

AND SO THE REACTION THAT YOU HAD FROM A YEAR AGO TO THE REACTION THAT YOU HAVE NOW WHERE YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE MOST OF THE POPULATION VACCINATED BY THE END OF THE SUMMER IF NOT THE EARLY FALL, I THINK HE'S TRIED TO ADJUST ACCORDINGLY.

YOU KNOW, THE ISSUE IS THAT HE'S BEEN FIGHTING MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE IN OUR STATE.

I THINK WHAT YOU'VE SEEN IS WE WENT FROM AN UNKNOWN ON HOW THE VIRUS WAS GOING TO AFFECT PEOPLE TO NOW WE HAVE SOME LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL WITH VACCINATIONS COMING WITH THE MASS POPULATION BY THE END OF THE SUMMER.

>> ARE WE CLEAR ON WHAT 50 PER 100,000 IS?

BECAUSE WHEN YOU DO THE MATH 50 PER 100,000 POPULATION IS 5,000 CASES.

THAT'S NOT OBVIOUSLY WHAT HE MEANS BECAUSE WE'RE AT 2,000 CASES A DAY NOW.

IS IT STILL KIND OF -- ARE WE STILL A LITTLE UNCLEAR WHAT HE MEANS?

IS IT 50 PER 100,000 TESTS?

IS THAT BASICALLY WHAT WE'RE LOOK AT, ANNA?

DO WE KNOW YET?

>> I'M NOT SURE WHAT HE MEANT.

AND I DID THE MATH LIKE YOU DID, AND I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED ON THAT.

IT COULD BE 50 PER 100,000 CASES BECAUSE WHEN WE LOOK AT THE DECEMBER NUMBER THAT THEY'RE USING AS A BENCHMARK.

SO ON DECEMBER 3rd THERE WERE 731 CASES PER 100,000.

BUT WHEN YOU TOTALED THAT OUT THERE WEREN'T THAT MANY PEOPLE WITH COVID IN THE STATE AT THAT TIME.

SO I'M GUESSING BUT I'M NOT 100% SURE.

>> YEAH, WE'LL FIND OUT.

HE'S GOT A BRIEFING I THINK SCHEDULED FOR MONDAY AND HOPEFULLY WE'LL GET A CHANCE TO ASK HIM SOME FOLLOW-UPS.

SHANNON JONES, HERE'S AN IDEA.

THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS IS TO SAVE LIVES.

SO WHY DON'T WE USE DEATHS AS THE BAROMETER OF WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE SUCCEEDING AND THIS IS OVER?

DEATHS ARE A LAGGING INDICATOR.

YOU GET SICK, IF IT GETS BAD YOU GO TO THE HOSPITAL.

THEN IT'S LIKE TWO WEEKS AFTER YOU GO TO THE HOSPITAL.

MANY PEOPLE DIE AFTER THAT POINT.

SO DEATH IS ALWAYS THE LAST THING IN THE CHAIN.

SO WHY NOT LOOK AT AN ACCEPTABLY LOW PERCENTAGE OF DEATHS OR A DEATH NUMBER BEFORE SAYING IT'S OVER?

IT'S KIND OF LIKE A RACE.

THE RACE IS NOT COMPLETELY OVER UNTIL THE LAST PERSON FINISHES.

WOULD THAT BE A LOGICAL THING TO LOOK AT?

>> LOOK, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO GET VERY SICK AND DON'T DIE.

SO I'M NOT SURE DEATHS REALLY TELL US THE WHOLE STORY.

SO FOR THAT REASON ALONE WE PROBABLY NEED TO LOOK AT A BROADER MEASURE.

BUT YOU KNOW, THE CHANGE THAT THE DEPARTMENT IS MAKING ON WHEN DEATHS WILL BE REPORTED IN THEIR NEW REPORTING SYSTEM, NOT ONLY WILL THE DEATHS LAG THE CASES THEMSELVES BUT ONCE THOSE DEATHS ARE REPORTED INTO THE SYSTEM COULD TAKE A COUPLE OF WEEKS TOO.

SO I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT'S REALLY A GOOD MEASURE EITHER.

THE GOVERNOR IS REALLY TRYING TO BALANCE COMPETING INTERESTS.

AND SO YOU KNOW, HE'S TRYING TO FIND A WAY FOR PEOPLE TO SEE A TREND AND BE ABLE TO KNOW WE'RE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION TO GET THEM TO CONTINUE TO BE VIGILANT TILL WE ACTUALLY GET THERE.

YOU KNOW, SO HE'S IN A TOUGH SPOT.

>> YEAH.

AND THE VIRUS HAS CHANGED.

CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE.

YOU GET ACCUSED OF FLIP FLOPPING, BUT LET'S FACE IT, WE'RE ALL LEARNING AS WE GO HERE.

ANYWAY, DESPITE THE CALLS TO OPEN UP OHIO, OHIO IS PRETTY OPEN.

WE HAVE TO WEAR MASKS AND MASS GATHERINGS ARE STILL BANNED.

YOU MAY HAVE TO WAIT IN LINE, BUT YOU CAN STILL GO TO A RESTAURANT, YOU CAN STILL SIT AT THE BAR UNTIL 2:00 IN THE MORNING.

YOU CAN GO TO ANY STORE YOU WANT.

OFFICES ARE FREE TO BRING BACK EMPLOYEES.

A BIG SEGMENT OF SOCIETY STILL REMAINS LARGELY CLOSED, AND THAT'S SCHOOLS.

MANY STUDENTS HAVE NOT SEEN A TEACHER FOR ABOUT A YEAR, IN PERSON THEY HAVE NOT SEEN A TEACHER FOR ABOUT A YEAR.

BUT WITH TEACHERS VACCINATED AND STUDIES SHOWING THE SPREAD LOW IN SCHOOLS, KIDS ARE COMING BACK.

ANN STAVER, THERE IS A PLAN TO BRING KIDS BACK TO THE CLASSROOM.

NOW THE QUESTION IS HOW DO WE HELP THEM CATCH UP AND HOW DO WE MEASURE HOW FAR THEY'RE BEHIND?

WHAT IS THE PLAN?

IS THERE A PLAN?

>> SO SCHOOLS HAVE UNTIL APRIL 1st TO TURN IN THEIR PLANS TO THE STATE ON HOW THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE UP FOR LOST LEARNING.

SO DeWINE IS LEAVING THAT UP TO THE INDIVIDUAL DISTRICTS.

BUT HE IS ASKING THEM TO TURN IN A PLAN AND THAT PLAN CAN EVEN INCLUDE SUMMER SCHOOL.

THERE ARE SOME DISTRICTS THAT ARE IN CONVERSATION ABOUT USING CARES MONEY TO TEACH KIDS FOR A FEW WEEKS IN THE SUMMER.

BUT IT'S ALSO A QUESTION OF TESTING.

YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE KNOW HOW FAR BEHIND EVERYONE IS?

AND ORIGINALLY STATE LAWMAKERS WERE GOING TO ASK TO SUSPEND THE STATEWIDE STANDARDIZED TESTING FOR THIS YEAR.

BUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS QUICK TO SAY NO, NO, WE WANT A TEST.

SO NOW THEY'RE GOING TO GO AHEAD WITH TESTING THAT STARTS HERE AT THE END OF THE MONTH.

AND IT WILL RUN -- WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THE LEGISLATURE PASSES BUT IT LOOKS LIKE IT WILL HOLD ON THROUGH THE END OF MAY.

THOSE WILL COME OUT IN THE SUMMER AND GIVE US AN IDEA OF WHERE EVERYBODY'S AT AND HOW MUCH LEARNING HAS BEEN LOST ACROSS THE DIFFERENT SCHOOL DISTRICTS.

AND THEN IT WILL UP TO THEM TO KIND OF FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY WANT TO DO WITH IT.

>> DERRICK CLAY, HOW EXCITED ARE PARENTS GOING TO BE IF THEY SAY YOU KNOW WHAT, YOU'VE GOT TO COME BACK TO SCHOOL JULY 10th TO MAKE UP THE LOST TIME?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT PARENTS AND STUDENTS ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO SOME REPRIEVE, TO BE QUITE HONEST.

YOU KNOW, STUDENTS MISS THEIR CLASSMATES AND THEIR PEERS AND THEIR FRIENDS.

AND IT'S BEEN TOUGH ON PARENTS TOO.

YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I RUN INTO COLLEAGUES ALL THE TIME AND CLIENTS THAT HAVE YOUNG CHILDREN AT HOME AND THEY'RE TRYING TO DO WORK AND THE KIDS ARE RUNNING AROUND AND THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE PROPERLY EDUCATED AS WELL.

SO I THINK THE STUDENTS AND PARENTS WILL BE HAPPY WHEN THERE'S SOME SENSE OF NORMALCY WITH KIDS GOING BACK TO SCHOOL.

>> SHANNON JONES, WHAT IF PARENTS DON'T WANT TO SEND THEIR KIDS BACK TO SCHOOL?

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HEARING, ESPECIALLY IN CITIES, IN LOW-INCOME NEIGHBORHOODS AMONG POPULATIONS OF COLOR, THAT IT'S THAN SCHOOLS DON'T WANT TO WELCOME THEM BACK, A LOT OF PARENTS ARE STILL HESITANT TO ALLOW THEIR KIDS BACK TO SCHOOL.

THEY SAY WE'RE GOING TO TEACH THEM AT HOME UNTIL SPREAD GOES DOWN A LITTLE MORE.

>> YEAH.

I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT PERSPECTIVE AS A PARENT MYSELF.

BUT YOU KNOW, ALSO MANY OF THESE COMMUNITIES ARE BEARING DISPROPORTIONATE INFECTION RATES AND IMPACT INCLUDING DEATH IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF REASONS WHY THESE FAMILIES -- YOU KNOW, AND OF COURSE A LOT OF THEM LIVE IN MULTIGENERATIONAL HOUSEHOLDS TOO.

YOU KNOW, HAVING GRANDMA LIVE IN THE HOME WITH CHILDREN OFTEN COMPLICATES ISSUES.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, YOU ADD TO THAT A LOT OF THESE COMMUNITIES ALSO ARE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE HIGH RATES OF VACCINE HESITANCY TOO.

IT'S A REALLY COMPLICATED PROBLEM.

I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO LISTEN TO THESE FAMILIES AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY THINK THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO GET THEIR KIDS BACK TO SCHOOL AND RESPOND ACCORDINGLY.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH ONLY HAVING A SCHOOL DISTRICT-BASED SOLUTION.

WE HAVE TO AUTHENTICALLY ENGAGE THESE FAMILIES AND WHERE THEY LISTEN TO WHAT THEY'RE TELLING US AND WORK TO MEET THEIR NEEDS.

>> THAT BRINGS UP THE NEXT QUESTION, IS WHEN THIS IS OVER, IT'S SAFE TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND HAVE CROWDED CLASSROOMS, IS THERE A POSSIBILITY THAT SOME OF THIS REMOTE LEARNING COULD BECOME PERMANENT WHERE SOME STUDENTS SAY I DON'T WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL EVERY DAY-I DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE FOR WHATEVER REASON, OR THEIR PARENTS DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE?

THAT THEY BE ALLOWED TO LEARN FROM HOME WITH THE TEACHER DOING A SIMULTANEOUS ZOOM LESSON AND IN-PERSON LESSON.

>> IF I COULD TAKE THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT COVID-19 HAS REALLY CHANGED THE WAY WE LOOK AT EVERYTHING.

I THINK THAT STUDENTS WILL BE DOING MORE VIRTUAL ONLINE LEARNING.

THAT'S THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE.

AT LEAST WITH HIGHER LEARNING.

AND SO YOU KNOW, WITH KIDS, WITH MISSED ASSIGNMENTS, SICK DAYS, I THINK THAT YOU WILL SEE MORE AND MORE OF THESE TYPE OF ZOOM MEETINGS WITH STUDENTS IN CLASSROOMS.

>> ARE THERE ANY -- IS THERE ANY PLAN -- IS THERE ANY TALK OF ALLOWING SCHOOL DISTRICTS TO DO THIS AND FIGURING THAT INTO THE ATTENDANCE MANDATES AND THINGS LIKE THAT?

>> I HAVEN'T HEARD THAT BROUGHT UP YET.

BUT I WILL SAY AROUND MY NEIGHBORHOOD, BECAUSE I HAVE SMALL CHILDREN, THE BIG CONCERN IS THAT IT'S GOING TO REPLACE SNOW DAYS, THAT INSTEAD OF GETTING AN ACTUAL SNOW DAY YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO ZOOM CLASSES, WHICH I CAN TELL YOU THE KIDS ON MY BLOCK ARE DEEPLY UNHAPPY ABOUT.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE -- EVEN THE WORK FROM HOME MOVEMENT, LIKE THERE'S A QUESTION WHEN MY OFFICE, WHEN THE DISPATCH GOES BACK, WHETHER WE'LL ALL GO BACK DOWNTOWN OR WHETHER I'LL BE PART-TIME AT HOME AND PART-TIME DOWNTOWN.

I HEAR IT ALL THE TIME, THAT THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC SORT OF ACCELERATED THIS WORK AND EDUCATE FROM HOME TREND BY AT LEAST A DECADE.

AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY TRUE.

AND ONE THING YOU SEE REFLECTED IN THE LEGISLATURE IS THE BROADBAND BILL.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A COUPLE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS TO EXPAND BROADBAND ACROSS THE STATE.

AND IT'S FINALLY MOVING, AND I THINK THE PANDEMIC HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

>> YEAH, IMAGINE THAT.

NO MORE CALAMITY DAYS, AS WE CALL THEM.

THE CALAMITY DAYS.

THE SNOW WARRIORS HAVE TO TAKE ON EVERY YEAR.

IT COULD BE A THING OF THE PAST THANKS TO ZOOM.

ANYWAY, WHAT A DIFFERENCE 20 MONTHS AND A $61 MILLION BRIBERY SCANDAL MAKES.

IN JULY OF 2019 A DIVIDED OHIO SENATE APPROVED HOUSE BILL 6, THE NUCLEAR BAILOUT.

THEN CAME THE FAILED CAMPAIGN TO REPEAL IT AND THE HOUSEHOLDER BRIBERY INDICTMENTS.

AND THIS WEEK A UNANIMOUS OHIO SENATE PASSED A BILL THAT ELIMINATES THE KEY COMPONENT OF THE CONTROVERSIAL LAW.

THE SENATE VOTED 32-0 TO ELIMINATE SUBSIDIES FOR THE TWO NUCLEAR PLANTS IN NORTHERN OHIO.

IT TURNS OUT AFTER SPENDING TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS GETTING THE BAILOUT PASSED THE COMPANY THAT OWNS THE PLANTS ONCE SAID TO BE ON THE EDGE OF FINANCIAL RUIN, THE COMPANY NOW SAYS IT NO LONGER NEEDS THE SUBSIDIES.

DERRICK CLAY, I'M CONFUSED.

I GET CONFUSED OFTEN.

WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

ALL OF A SUDDEN THESE PLANTS ARE FINE, THEY DON'T NEED THE SUBSIDIES?

>> WELL, THAT'S A BIG QUESTION, MIKE.

A YEAR AGO YOU HAD ALL TYPES OF COMMERCIALS ON TV SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE CHINESE WERE GOING TO TAKE OVER OUR ELECTRIC GRID IF HOUSE BILL 6 WAS NOT PASSED.

THE COMPANY WAS SAYING THAT THEY NEEDED THIS BAILOUT IN ORDER TO SURVIVE.

AND NOW YOU SEE THAT THE IS THAT THE HAS PASSED THIS BILL UNANIMOUSLY AND THE COMPANY APPARENTLY DOESN'T NEED THE MONEY ANYMORE.

SO I THINK THAT NEEDS SOME FURTHER EXPLANATION TO THE TAXPAYERS OF OHIO.

>> ANNA STAVER, ARE THEY TRYING TO MAKE THIS GO AWAY?

THERE IS A REASON THEY SAY THESE SUBSIDIES DON'T WORK.

THERE'S A NEW FEDERAL LAW THAT SAYS YOU TAKE THE SUBSIDIES YOU CAN'T CHARGE LOW RATES OR YOU HAVE TO INCREASE YOUR RATES SOMEWHERE ELSE.

SO THERE IS A FINANCIAL REASON FOR IT BUT THAT HAD TO HAVE BEEN KNOWN WHEN THIS WAS PASSED.

>> YEAH.

I THINK IN PART THERE'S A GROUP OF LAWMAKERS, BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, WHO THINK THAT THE ENTIRE BILL IS JUST TAINTED BY THE CLOUD OF THIS BRIBERY RACKETEERING SCANDAL AND THEY THINK AT THE VERY LEAST IF ANYTHING THERE'S THE LET'S REPEAL ALL OF IT AND START OVER PHILOSOPHY AND THEN THERE'S THE PHILOSOPHY THAT SEEMS TO BE GAINING TRACTION WHICH IS LET'S DO THIS IN BITS AND PIECES.

SO WE HAVE A BILL TO GET RID OF DECOUPLING.

WE'VE HAD THIS BILL FOR THE SUBSIDY.

AND I THINK THAT'S KIND OF HOW THEY'RE GOING TO UNWIND PARTS OF IT, IS THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE IT PIECE BY PIECE AND CHUNK OUT AND REMOVE THE THINGS THEY DON'T LIKE AND KEEP THE THINGS THAT THEY THINK WERE PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA ANYWAY.

BUT THERE IS STILL THAT QUESTION OF SHOULD THIS BILL EXIST IN ANY FORM GIVEN THE WAY IN WHICH IT WAS PASSED.

>> AND ARE THEY GOING TO PUT BACK THE EFFICIENCY STANDARDS FOR GREEN ENERGY?

IS THAT BEING TALKED ABOUT?

>> THERE'S DEFINITELY A GROUP OF PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT IT.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE'S ANY TRACTION YET TO MAKE A MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION.

RIGHT NOW SENATE PRESIDENT MATT HUFFMAN AT ONE OF HIS PRESS CONFERENCES THIS WEEK SAID HE HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH SPEAKER COB ABOUT WHAT HAS ENOUGH VOTES TO PASS AND PASS QUICKLY.

IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY'RE STARTING WITH THE LOW HANGING FRUIT, LIKE THE EASIEST STUFF TO HANDLE FIRST.

>> DERRICK, YOU WORKED ON THE GREEN ENERGY PORTION OF THIS, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BEFORE LAWMAKERS.

IS THE GREEN ENERGY THING IF THE EFFICIENCY STANDARDS AREN'T PUT BACK IN, DOESN'T THAT HELP FIRST ENERGY, DOESN'T THAT EVEN HELP THE NATURAL GAS PRODUCERS WHO NOW DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT COMPETING WITH GREEN ENERGY, NATURAL GAS PRODUCERS DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT COMPETING WITH AN ELECTRIC COMPANY THAT HAS THE SUBSIDIES?

>> WELL, OF COURSE IT HELPS THOSE COMPANIES BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT DIRECTION THAT'S BEHIND IT.

BUT THE GREEN ENERGY SUBSIDIES WERE A GOOD THING.

HOPEFULLY THE LEGISLATURE WILL KEEP PORTIONS OF THOSE -- OF THAT THAT WAS PART OF THE BILL.

BUT YES, IT DOES HELP THE UTILITY COMPANIES BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE REGULATION MESS THAT COMES BEHIND IT.

>> SHANNON JONES, I ALWAYS LIKE TO ASK YOU THESE QUESTIONS BECAUSE YOU SERVED IN THE STATE SENATE.

THE LAWMAKERS DESCRIBED THIS AS A LEARNING OPPORTUNITY, A CAUTIONARY TALE.

HOW LONG DO THEY REMEMBER THIS CAUTIONARY LESSON?

>> LOOK, UTILITY POLICY IS COMPLICATED.

AND IN A TERM LIMIT ENVIRONMENT WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH PUBLIC POLICIES IT'S AS TECHNICAL AS UTILITY REGULATION IS, IT'S HARD TO REMEMBER THE LESSONS.

EVEN IF YOUR INTENTION IS TO REMEMBER THE LESSONS.

AND SO IT'S NOT -- YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATE YOU ASKED THE QUESTION ON THE POLITICS AROUND IT.

BUT I THINK IT'S BIGGER THAN THE POLITICS.

THIS IS A REALLY TOUGH AREA OF LAW, HAVING BEEN INVOLVED IN SEVERAL PIECES OF UTILITY REGULATION DURING MY TENURE, YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO LEARN AND IT'S -- TERM LIMITS, ONCE YOU DO LEARN, PUTS YOU OUT TO PASTURE -- >> WHAT'S THE SOLUTION?

BECAUSE WHEN SOMETHING'S COMPLICATED THE FOLKS WHO KNOW IT BEST WRITE THE LAWS.

AND THEN IT GOES BEFORE THE LAWMAKERS AND THEY UNDERSTANDABLY DON'T KNOW THE LAWS OF PHYSICS OR WHAT IT TAKES TO GET ELECTRICITY FROM ONE PLACE TO THE OTHER.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION, DO YOU THINK?

>> I MEAN, LOOK, I WOULD SAY THAT TERM LIMITS, YOU KNOW, REALLY IS PROBLEMATIC FOR ISSUES LIKE THIS BECAUSE THE LEGISLATURE SHOULD BE THE ONE THAT PUBLICLY DEBATES THESE ISSUES AND DOES SO IN A COMPREHENSIVE WAY WHEN THAT'S REQUIRED.

I MEAN, RIGHT NOW THE PIECEMEAL WAY OF ATTACKING THE LEGISLATION, THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES TO THAT.

WHEN YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AT HOW THIS WHOLE PICTURE, THIS REGULATORY FRAMEWORK WILL CONTINUE TO OPERATE, YOU KNOW, THERE COULD BE A LOT OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES.

SO I WOULD SAY THAT LOSING MEMBERS WHO SPECIALIZE IN THIS AREA AND DEVELOP NOT ONLY THE EXPERTISE BUT THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND WHERE ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS ARE COMING FROM AND CAN BALANCE THOSE INTERESTS, I THINK IT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT POSITION.

>> ALL RIGHT.

FINAL TOPIC.

IF A REPORT THIS WEEK IS TO BE BELIEVED, DONALD TRUMP HAS A FAVORITE IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY RACE FOR ROB PORTMAN'S SENATE SEAT.

AXIOS REPORTS ADVISERS AND HIS SON HAD TO TALK THE FORMER PRESIDENT OUT OF ENDORSING JANE TIMKEN.

IT'S TOO EARLY THEY REPORTEDLY TOLD HIM.

THE OTHER ANNOUNCED CANDIDATE JOSH MANDEL IS NO DOUBT RELIEVED THAT TRUMP REMAINS NEUTRAL.

WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR OTHER REPUBLICANS TO DECIDE IF THEY WILL RUN AND WHICH DEMOCRATS WANT TO ENTER THE RACE.

SHANNON JONES, IT'S JUST INCREDIBLE A PRESIDENT WHO JUST LOST THE ELECTION IS STILL THE KING OR QUEEN MAKER IN THIS CASE FOR POLITICAL ENDORSEMENTS.

>> YEAH, MAYBE.

I MEAN, WE'LL FIND OUT.

I MEAN, CERTAINLY THOSE THAT ARE RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE ARE PUTTING ALL OF THEIR EGGS IN THE TRUMP BASKET AND THEY THINK THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS REALLY GOING TO VALUE THAT OVER TIME.

I THINK THE QUESTION REMAINS THAT IS THERE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR, YOU KNOW, A THIRD OR FOURTH CANDIDATE TO JUMP INTO THE RACE TO SEE IF THOSE TRUMP SUPPORTERS OVER TIME FIND INTEREST IN OTHER CANDIDATES THAT MAY NO LONGER BE INTERESTED IN JUST WHITE GRIEVANCE POLITICS OR OWNING THE LIBS AND ARE MORE INTERESTED IN THINGS LIKE WHO'S REALLY LISTENING TO MY ISSUES AROUND CHILD CARE OR THE COST OF HIGHER EDUCATION.

>> DERRICK CLAY, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IN THIS RACE?

WHEN DO OTHER CANDIDATES REALLY START TO JUMP IN?

HOW BIG DO YOU THINK THE FIELD WILL BE?

>> WELL, FIRST OFF, I THINK TRUMPISM IS A FAD.

I THINK THAT PEOPLE IN THIS STATE REALLY DO VALUE THEIR ELECTED LEADERS AND WE PICK PEOPLE THAT WE WANT TO TRULY REPRESENT OUR INTERESTS.

AND IT'S NOT NECESSARILY WRAPPED AROUND ONE PERSON OR ONE PERSON'S IDEOLOGY.

YOU KNOW, JANE TIMKEN GOT THE ENDORSEMENT OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN WHETHER THAT ENDORSEMENT IS GOING TO HOLD FOR HER PRIMARY.

JOSH MANDEL IS DOING THE SAME THING.

HE'S TRYING TO GO ON THE TRUMP PLATFORM.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU'VE GOT SOME OTHER CONGRESSPEOPLE OUT THERE THAT ARE LOOKING AT THIS.

SHRUP IS LOOKING AT IT.

WE DON'T KNOW IF HE'S GOING TO TRY TO GO FOR THE GUBERNATORIAL RACE.

IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN WHETHER TRUMPISM IS GOING TO HELP OR HURT THESE CANDIDATES THAT HAVE THE RACE ON THE GOP SIDE.

>> ALL RIGHT.

TIME NOW FOR OUR OFF THE RECORD FINAL THOUGHTS, OUR PARTING SHOTS.

SHANNON JONES, WE'LL START WITH YOU.

>> WELL, I'LL JUST POINT OUT THAT LAST CONVERSATION, I THINK OHIOANS ARE GOING TO BE IN THE CATBIRD'S SEAT IN THE 2022 ELECTION.

THAT'S REALLY GOING TO DETERMINE THE FUTURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE IF THE REAGAN DEMOCRATS THAT LEFT THE DEMOCRAT PARTY THAT BECAME TRUMP REPUBLICANS STAY THERE OR THOSE SO-CALLED BIDEN REPUBLICANS DO TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHAT THE REAGAN DEMOCRATS DID TO THE DEMOCRAT PARTY.

>> OKAY.

WE'LL GO NOW TO HIS HONOR JUDGE DERRICK CLAY.

>> SO THIS WEEK THE GOVERNOR STATED THAT 1.8 MILLION AMERICANS -- OR OHIOANS HAVE BEEN VACCINATED WITH THE COVID-19 VACCINATION.

ONLY 5.6% OF THOSE HAVE BEEN AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

SO WE'VE DEFINITELY GOT TO DO A BETTER JOB OF GETTING OUR MINORITY POPULATIONS VACCINATED.

>> ALL RIGHT.

AND ANNA STAVER, YOU GET OUR FINAL THOUGHT.

>> A QUIRKY LITTLE STORY OUT OF THE "COLUMBUS DISPATCH" WHICH DEALS WITH A RULE.

A MAN INHERIT AID PROPERTY AND LEFT HIS HOUSE TO THE ZOO AND THE CEO MOVED HIS IN-LAWS IN FOR SEVERAL YEARS WHILE THEY WAITED FOR THE MARKET TO TURN AROUND AND RENT IT.

IT'S A REALLY STRANGE STORY.

AND I HIGHLY RECOMMEND READING IT IF ONLY BECAUSE IT GOES TO SOMETHING I LIKE TO CALL THE ILLUSION OF IMPROPRIETY.

EVEN IF THEY'RE PAYING MARKET RATE AND THERE'S NOTHING UNTOWARD HAPPENING IT JUST LOOKS BAD EVEN IF IT ISN'T BAD.

>> INTERESTING READ.

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FOR OUR CREW, FOR OUR PANEL I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.

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