>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU >> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, A CONVERSATION WITH THE GOVERNOR.

POLITICS CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND SITS DOWN WITH GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM AS WE ENTER HER LAST 60-DAY LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

>> Lujan Grisham: THIS SESSION, YOU HAVE TO DO PUBLIC SAFETY.

IF NONE OF US FEEL SAFE, REALLY ANYWHERE, THEN THAT'S A PROBLEM.

>> Lou: AND BALANCING JUSTICE.

A LONGTIME CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER AND A DISTRICT ATTORNEY TRY TO FIND COMMON GROUND ON THE FUTURE OF PUBLIC SAFETY AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM IN OUR STATE.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DiVIZIO.

FOR THIS EPISODE, WE'RE ZEROING IN ON PUBLIC SAFETY, THE ISSUE TAKING CENTER STAGE IN SANTA FE AS THE LEGISLATURE MEETS FOR A 60-DAY SESSION.

A BIT LATER IN THE SHOW, WE'LL TRY TO GIVE YOU SOME PERSPECTIVE THAT YOU WON'T FIND ANYWHERE ELSE IN EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR'S CONVERSATION WITH BERNALILLO COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY SAM BREGMAN AND LONGTIME CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER PETER CUBRA.

THE THREE TALK ABOUT SOME SPECIFIC LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS, BUT ALSO DELVE DEEPER INTO THE UNDERLYING CAUSES OF CRIME, WHAT WORKS, AND WHAT DOESN'T.

AND THEY DISCUSS POSSIBLE LONG AND SHORT-TERM SOLUTIONS TO THE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH CRISIS THAT SWIRLS AROUND ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY.

BUT FIRST, WE HEAD TO THE ROUNDHOUSE WHERE POLITICS CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND THIS WEEK SAT DOWN FOR AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM.

IN THE FIRST OF A TWO-PART DISCUSSION, GWYNETH ASKS THE GOVERNOR ABOUT SOME KEY ISSUES OUTSIDE OF PUBLIC SAFETY, LIKE EDUCATION, ENERGY, AND THE GROWING ANXIETY AROUND FEDERAL IMMIGRATION ACTION.

HERE'S GWYNETH.

>> Gwyneth: GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> Lujan Grisham: I'M DELIGHTED TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Gwyneth: OUR PLEASURE.

OBSERVERS NOTED THAT YOUR STATE OF THE STATE SPEECH LAST WEEK WAS WELCOMING TO REPUBLICANS.

ONE OF OUR COMMENTATORS CALLED IT CONCILIATORY, EVEN.

AND THEY-- REPUBLICANS, ALSO GAVE YOU AT LEAST ONE STANDING OVATION.

YOUR SPEECH WAS FOCUSED ON CRIME, YOUR AGENDA HAS BEEN LARGELY FOCUSED ON CRIME.

SOME PEOPLE NOTICED THAT YOU DIDN'T MENTION SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE TALKED QUITE LOUDLY ABOUT IN THE PAST THAT YOU'VE BEEN VERY AGGRESSIVE ON.

ABORTION, LGBTQ RIGHTS, GUN CONTROL.

CAN YOU TALK FOR A MINUTE ABOUT YOUR STRATEGY OF FRAMING YOUR PRIORITIES FOR THIS SESSION AND YOUR STRATEGY FOR SUCCESS?

>> Lujan Grisham: WELL, A COUPLE OF THINGS.

I MEAN, I DID REALLY WANT TO HIGHLIGHT ALL OF OUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

HONESTLY, I'M PROUD OF THAT.

SO SHOULD THE LEGISLATURE.

THAT IS A 10-HOUR SPEECH.

THERE IS A LOT THERE, AND SOME OF IT HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, HONESTLY BLIND LUCK.

BUT A LOT OF IT HAS BEEN REALLY STRATEGIC ABOUT BUILDING AN ECONOMY AND REALLY SHIFTING ABOUT HOW WE SUPPORT NEW MEXICO FAMILIES.

FRANKLY, FROM CRADLE TO CAREER.

YOU WANT TO GET OUT OF POVERTY, YOU WANT TO MOVE THE NEEDLE?

THEN WE CAN'T KEEP VACILLATING ABOUT WHAT AND WHEN.

IT'S ALL OF IT, ALL OF THE TIME.

AND I MENTIONED, RIGHT, WE WENT FROM 50th TO 17th IN CHILDHOOD POVERTY.

THAT IS AMAZING, AND SOMETIMES I BRISTLE A BIT THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT MORE AND MORE AND MORE.

BECAUSE IT IS BEING TALKED ABOUT ALL OVER AMERICA.

NEW MEXICO'S RECIPE FOR SUCCESS IS WORKING.

SO, I WANT TO HOLD THAT BECAUSE SOMETIMES WE ARE A LITTLE HARD ON OURSELVES BECAUSE WE'VE GOT PLENTY OF CHALLENGES, BUT DON'T FORGET TO CELEBRATE REAL WINS.

THAT WAS ONE.

TWO, ACCOUNTABILITY NEEDS TO HAPPEN EVERYWHERE.

I'M GOING TO HOLD THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE.

I'M GOING TO HOLD OURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE.

AND THE LEGISLATURE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR MEETING THE MOMENT THAT THEY HAVE AND THAT CLEARLY IS PUBLIC SAFETY.

SO, I REALLY TRIED TO DO THAT THEME.

LOOK, EVERYONE, I THINK, I HOPE KNOWS YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO LOSE ME AS A REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS CHAMPION.

I BELIEVE IN THE FREEDOM AND EQUALITY OF EVERY PERSON, AND WHEN THEY RIP THOSE AWAY FROM WOMEN, THIS IS THE STATE THAT WILL STAND THEM UP OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT'S GOING TO GET MORE CHALLENGING, AND NEW MEXICO WILL RISE TO THE OCCASION.

AND ALSO EXPECT FOR ME TO BUILD MORE CLINICS.

I SHOULD BE DOING THAT BECAUSE IT'S PRIMARY CARE.

>> Gwyneth: YOU HAD A PRESS CONFERENCE THIS WEEK ON SOME OF YOUR CRIME PROPOSALS.

AND YOU HAD A BIPARTISAN GROUP OF LAWMAKERS THERE.

IS IT IMPORTANT TO YOU -- IS IT VITAL TO YOU TO WORK IN A BIPARTISAN FASHION ON PUBLIC SAFETY?

>> Lujan Grisham: ON EVERYTHING.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU REMEMBER, GWYNETH, IN 2019 I HAD A ROCKET DOCKET WITH 40 BILLS THAT HAD BEEN VETOED BY THE PREVIOUS GOVERNOR.

BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

I SAID, IF THE CONDITIONS OR ISSUES HAVEN'T CHANGED, AND THESE ARE STILL RELEVANT AND EVERYBODY SUPPORTS THEM, YOU GET THEM UP TO ME IN FIVE DAYS AND I'LL SIGN THEM ALL.

IF IT'S A GOOD IDEA, SHOULD WE BE CARING WHOSE IDEA IT IS?

I THINK, ACTUALLY, THIS LEGISLATURE COULD STAND ALONE IN A BRIGHT, REALLY PRODUCTIVE FASHION.

WE'RE NOT ALWAYS GOING TO AGREE.

OUR VALUES BETWEEN THE PARTIES ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

WE DON'T HAVE TO LOOK LIKE A PAGE OUT OF WASHINGTON, D.C. WE CAN BE NEW MEXICANS, WE CAN BE MORE NON-PARTISAN, AND MORE BIPARTISAN.

PUBLIC SAFETY IS AFFECTING EVERY SINGLE COMMUNITY IN THIS STATE.

SO, IT OUGHT TO BE A DRIVING FACTOR FOR EVERY SINGLE LEGISLATOR.

I THINK, IN FACT, THAT'S SHOWING.

I'VE GOT 35 BILLS I WANT TO GET UPSTAIRS, OR MORE.

THEY'VE GOT 35 TO 50 BILLS, OR MORE.

MORE WILL BE INTRODUCED BY VICTIM'S ADVOCATES RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS AND OTHERS.

AND LET'S SEE HOW MANY THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE CAN GET UPSTAIRS.

BUT I'M VERY OPTIMISTIC WE'RE GOING TO GET A HEALTHY BODY OF GOOD PUBLIC SAFETY CHANGES.

>> Gwyneth: THIS WEEK, PRESIDENT TRUMP ORDERED A PAUSE ON FEDERAL GRANT PROGRAMS, AND THEN RESCINDED IT OR MAYBE NOT.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT HARD TO TELL.

>> Lujan Grisham: I DON'T THINK HE KNOWS.

>> Gwyneth: I'M NOT SURE THEY DO.

THE WHITE HOUSE DID SAY THAT THE ORDER WAS SUPPOSED TO TARGET DEI, WOKE GENDER IDEOLOGY, THE NEW GREEN DEAL, I'M QUOTING.

DIVERSITY, GENDER, EQUALITY, CLEAN ENERGY, THESE ARE ISSUES YOU'VE BEEN A CHAMPION FOR HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

DOES HAVING TRUMP IN THE WHITE HOUSE PUT MORE PRESSURE ON YOU TO PROTECT THESE PEOPLE, THESE PROGRAMS, THESE VALUES HERE?

>> Lujan Grisham: I WAS GOVERNOR ONCE BEFORE WHEN TRUMP WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

SO, NO PRESIDENT SHOULD BE ABLE TO, AND HE CERTAINLY WON'T BE ABLE TO HERE, TO PRESSURE SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ELECTED BY THEIR OWN STATE TO REPRESENT THEIR PRIORITIES AND THEIR VALUES.

I CHUCKLE A LITTLE, NOT THAT I DON'T THINK THIS IS VERY SERIOUS.

LOOK, THEY'RE AFTER DESTROYING EDUCATION.

THESE POLICIES ARE ALL ABOUT WE DON'T WANT ANY UNIVERSITIES OR COLLEGES, WE DON'T WANT ANYTHING THAT'S AN INDEPENDENT RESEARCH ACADEMIC INSTITUTION.

SO, YOU GET PEOPLE REALLY ANGRY THAT SOMEHOW WE'RE NOT HIRING PEOPLE THAT AREN'T QUALIFIED AND IT'S AN UNFAIR SYSTEM BUILT FOR SOME HOLLYWOOD ELITES.

I MADE THAT UP.

WHATEVER IT IS THAT SEEMS -- >> Gwyneth: THE OTHERS.

>> Lujan Grisham: YEAH, THE OTHERS.

IN NEW MEXICO, IF YOU WERE TO REALLY READ WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, IT MEANS THAT I GUESS SINCE WE'RE A MINORITY-MAJORITY STATE, I CAN'T HIRE ANYONE WHO IS ANGLO.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S WHAT THEY INTEND.

BUT HERE'S WHAT I INTEND, WE WILL CONTINUE TO HIRE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOTIVATED AND QUALIFIED.

WHO ARE DIVERSE, WHO HAVE DIFFERENT IDEAS AND STRATEGIES TO MEET THIS MOMENT WITH INTEGRITY AND COURAGE AND TO DO RIGHT BY EVERY SINGLE NEW MEXICAN.

AND DOES THAT MEAN THAT WE MIGHT MISS A FEDERAL GRANT OR TWO WHEN THEY GET THEIR SEA LEGS AND FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HELL IT IS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO, WHICH BY THE WAY IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL BECAUSE JUST LIKE I CAN'T PASS A LAW, I CAN'T APPROPRIATE MYSELF MONEY.

AND NEITHER CAN HE.

I THINK THIS IS A PLACE WHERE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT WAS GOING TO SAY NO, WHICH IS WHY THEY WERE QUICK TO ROLL THAT BACK, BUT WE COULD LOSE A GRANT OR TWO, AND WE'RE GOING TO FUND IT OURSELVES BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO DO RIGHT BY NEW MEXICO.

>> Gwyneth: IMMIGRATION IS ONE OF THE ISSUES WHERE THE STATE'S APPROACH HAS BEEN MOST NOTABLY DIFFERENT FROM TRUMP'S.

WHAT CAN YOU AND DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS DO TO COUNTER THE NEW ADMINISTRATION ON ITS PLANS?

>> Lujan Grisham: SO, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, YOUR TIMING, AS PER USUAL, IS PERFECT.

I'M GOING TO BE A LITTLE BIT VAGUE.

BUT I HOPE I CAN EXPLAIN IT WELL, AND APOLOGIZE TO VIEWERS.

I AM OF THE OPINION THAT WHEN YOU'RE RIDING A ROLLER COASTER BACKWARDS AND IT'S THE WORST AND MOST TERRIFYING ROLLER COASTER IN THE WORLD, AND THERE'S NO SEATBELTS OR BARS AND YOU CAN'T GET OFF, IT NEVER HANDS, YOU JUST HANG ON.

DON'T TRY TO JUMP OUT.

YOU'LL HURT YOURSELF.

YOU'LL KILL YOURSELF.

JUST HANG IN.

EVENTUALLY, IT WILL RUN OUT OF ENERGY OR SOMEBODY WILL UNPLUG IT.

I NEED TO WAIT AND SEE WHERE THEY GO.

AND POKING HIM AND TELLING HIM OR TELEGRAPHING WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO TYPICALLY ISN'T THE BEST IDEA.

BUT HERE'S WHERE WE'RE GOING TO BE ALIGNED, I DON'T LIKE THE CARTEL EITHER.

I DO THINK THEY SHOULD BE LABELED AS A TERRORIST, OR WHATEVER IT TAKES FOR US TO DO BETTER BY TRANSNATIONAL GANGS AND THESE CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS, A THOUSAND PERCENT IN.

I ALREADY DID AN ORGANIZED CRIME COMMISSION.

WE'RE ALREADY FUNDING IT.

I WANT MORE.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST COUNTRY'S FENTANYL BUSTS AND HUMAN TRAFFICKING BUSTS, US.

I ASKED BIDEN, I DIDN'T GET IT, FOR 25 FEDERAL AGENTS NEARLY EVERY WEEK FOR THE ENTIRE FOUR YEARS.

I ASKED OBAMA.

I ASKED EVERYONE.

WE NEED MORE POLICING THAT'S CONSTITUTIONAL, THAT IS WORKING ON IDENTIFYING, ARRESTING, ALL DONE CONSTITUTIONALLY.

AND IF YOU'RE A BAD ACTOR FROM MEXICO, YOU BET YOU GIVE ME THAT WARRANT I'M HAPPY TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE PART OF THAT DEPORTATION ASPECT.

DONE.

WE DO IT ALREADY.

WHY WOULDN'T YOU DO THAT?

YOU SEND ME A WARRANT AND ICE SHOWS UP, I DO IT.

I WANT HELP SORTING OUT BAD ACTORS.

YOU GO INTO A SCHOOL TO TRY AND SCARE CHILDREN AND SEPARATE FAMILIES AND CREATE A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, THEY SHOULD EXPECT A SWIFT AND IMMEDIATE RESPONSE FROM THE STATE TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE.

I WISH I COULD ASSURE EVERY WORKER AND EVERY UNDOCUMENTED FAMILY THAT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT PROTECTIONS HERE.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS A POWERFUL FORCE.

AND THE FACT THAT THEY CAN MILITARIZE THE BORDER, WHICH I ALSO BELIEVE IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, I FIND DISGUSTING THAT THEY'RE GOING TO SEND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE TO OUR BORDER IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS.

I DIDN'T GET TO BEAR WITNESS TO THEIR TRAINING.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS THAT THEY THINK THEY'RE GOING TO DO AT THE BORDER, BUT EXPECT THAT WE HAVE OPERATIONS, WELL UNDERWAY, THAT DO THE RIGHT HUMANITARIAN THING TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE THAT WE CAN.

BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GOING TO TOLERATE THAT BY JUST SITTING BACK AND STANDING IDLY BY AND SAYING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO ANYONE THEY WANT.

THAT IS NOT HOW THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT.

AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT HOW THIS STATE WAS BUILT.

>> Gwyneth: I'M GOING TO SHIFT TO CLIMATE FOR A MINUTE HERE.

IN HIS FIRST DAYS IN OFFICE, TRUMP DECLARED A NATIONAL ENERGY EMERGENCY, HOPING TO USE EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY TO UNDO A LOT OF BIDEN ADMINISTRATION CLEAN ENERGY POLICIES, AND TRUMP WANTS TO SHIFT MORE INVESTMENT TO OIL, GAS, AND COAL.

BUT PART OF WHAT HE WANTS TO DO TOO IS CUT ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS, AND SPEED UP THE PERMITTING PROCESS FOR THINGS LIKE TRANSMISSION LINES.

NEW MEXICO IS HOME TO TWO OF THE BIGGEST TRANSMISSION LINES EVER.

THEY'VE BEEN IN THE WORKS ALMOST 20 YEARS.

AND WE ARE ONE OF THE NATION'S TOP OIL AND GAS PRODUCERS.

COULD PRESIDENT TRUMP'S POWER GRAB ON THIS NATIONAL ENERGY EMERGENCY BENEFIT NEW MEXICO?

>> Lujan Grisham: WELL, IN SOME WAYS IT COULD.

AND -- LOOK, WE CANNOT HAVE THE PERMITTING FOR TRANSMISSION -- NEW MEXICANS WANT, AND I DO TOO, A WHOLE LOT MORE GREEN ELECTRONS MOVING THROUGH OUR SYSTEMS, BUT I CAN'T UNLESS I'M MODERNIZING THE GRID AND GETTING MORE TRANSITION.

IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

WELL, IF THEY CHANGE THAT PERMITTING AND THEN WE MAKE SURE THAT WE AREN'T DOING ANYTHING TO MARGINALIZE COMMUNITIES, THAT WE'RE NOT BREACHING OUR OWN ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS, I'M HAPPY TO HAVE THAT TAKE THREE YEARS.

I DON'T NEED IT TO TAKE 20 AND 30.

IT'S TAKING 30 YEARS IN MOST STATES.

WE WILL NEVER MEET A TRANSMISSION GOAL IF I CAN'T GET GREEN ELECTRONS ON TO THE GRID.

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

THAT WOULD BENEFIT NEW MEXICO.

IT WILL REALLY BENEFIT THE WEST.

I THINK YOU'LL SEE A LOT OF DEMOCRATIC GOVERNORS BE ALL ABOUT THAT, INCLUDING THAT PERMITTING AND THOSE REGULATORY ENVIRONMENTS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL PREVENT US SOLAR STORAGE AND BATTERY STORAGE.

I NEED ALL OF THE ABOVE TO MEET OUR CLEAN ENERGY TARGETS, AND OUR GOALS.

SO, YES, I THINK IT BENEFITS THE COUNTRY, AND THINK IT ABSOLUTELY BENEFITS NEW MEXICO.

NOW, I DIDN'T NEED HIM TO ROLL BACK ANYTHING AND TO MAKE SOME GRAND ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT NATIONAL SECURITY AND OIL.

WE WENT TO THE SECOND LARGEST OIL AND GAS PRODUCER WHILE CURBING METHANE, PUTTING HEFTY FINES ON POLLUTERS AND BAD ACTORS.

AND WHILE IT MAY NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO AN ENVIRONMENTALLY-MINDED NEW MEXICAN WHO IS DOING RIGHT BY THAT EFFORT, THAT WE PRODUCE THE CLEANEST BARREL OF OIL IN THE WORLD.

AND THE CLEANEST LITER OF NATURAL GAS.

HOW DO WE DO THAT?

BETTER NOT HAVE A PNEUMATIC VALVE, BETTER NOT BE USING DIESEL, BETTER PUT SOLAR.

BETTER NOT RELEASE METHANE.

BETTER USE RECYCLED WATER.

BETTER CLEAN IT UP.

THAT REDUCES THEIR CARBON FOOTPRINT IN MEANINGFUL WAYS WHILE AT THE SAME TIME I WANT WANT WIND, I WANT SOLAR, I WANT GEOTHERMAL.

FRANKLY, I'M A BIT AGNOSTIC ABOUT HYDROGEN.

I WILL INCENTIVIZE YOU TO LOWER THAT CARBON INTENSITY TO THE LOWEST DEGREE.

THAT MEANS YOU'RE GREEN OR GREEN-PLUS, THOSE ARE MADE UP COLORS.

WHAT IF WE CAN MAKE A TRANSLUCENT COLOR?

WHY AM I DOING THAT?

YOU MEET A NEGATIVE STANDARD, AND I AM IN.

THERE'S SO MUCH MORE THAT NEW MEXICO CAN DO, AND WE ARE GOING TO DO IT.

THE REALITY IS, HE WANTS AMERICAN MANUFACTURERS, HE IS GOING TO FIND THAT IF HE REALLY WANTS TO DO THAT AND MEET THESE AMERICAN-WORKER GOALS, HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO EMBRACE A LOT MORE OF THIS RENEWABLE ENERGY.

HE MAY NOT INCENTIVIZE IT WITH THOSE TAX BREAKS ANYMORE.

BUT ALL THOSE REPUBLICAN STATES WHO BENEFIT, INCLUDING MY NEIGHBOR TEXAS, ARE GOING TO WANT THOSE.

SO, LET'S JUST SEE WHERE THEY LAND.

BUT, AGAIN, EXPECT NEW MEXICO TO DO MORE OF THE SAME, MAYBE A LITTLE BIT ON STEROIDS.

I'VE GOT TWO YEARS, I'M GREEDY, AND I WANT IT ALL.

WE'RE ONE OF THE TOP RENEWABLE ENERGY PRODUCERS IN THE COUNTRY.

WE'RE ALSO ONE OF THE PLACES WHERE SOLAR IS LEAST EXPENSIVE, AND WE ARE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

AND I GET TO CHAIR THE U.S.

CLIMATE ALLIANCE AND TALK ABOUT YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY ACCOUNTABLE, BUT WE'RE IN A TRANSITION.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT, TO VIEWERS, I WISH WE WEREN'T.

I WISH YOU COULD JUST DO THIS, AND I CAN CLEAN IT UP, I CAN STOP AND REVERSE CLIMATE CHANGE AND IT'S DONE.

BUT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE, AND WE'VE GOTTEN IN OUR OWN WAY AROUND THE GLOBE.

SO, LET'S DO RIGHT BY ALL OF IT.

LET'S BE THE FASTEST STATE IN AMERICA IN A TRANSITION.

AND THEN WE CAN BE A LITTLE TOUGHER ABOUT WHERE OUR ENERGY COMES FROM AND EXPECT THAT THE NEXT GOVERNOR WILL.

>> Lujan Grisham: WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN NEW MEXICO IS THEY'RE NOT STOPPING, AND NONE OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMS, OR FAMILY INTERVENTIONS ARE STEMMING THIS.

AND THE AMOUNT OF GUNS THAT THESE KIDS HAVE, AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, AND THE AMOUNT OF SHOOTING THEY DO EVERY DAY OUT OF CARS, ON CAMPUSES, IN PARKING LOTS, IN NEIGHBORHOODS, IS STUNNING.

THE VIOLENCE IS STUNNING.

>> Lou: IN ABOUT 25 MINUTES, WE'LL HEAD BACK INSIDE THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE TO HEAR HER THOUGHTS ON PUBLIC SAFETY LEGISLATION.

NOW TO SOME DEVELOPMENTS IN A CASE INVOLVING SOME OF THE PEOPLE WE TRUST WITH ENFORCING THE LAW IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

NEWLY UNSEALED COURT DOCUMENTS ARE GIVING US MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE FEDERAL INVESTIGATION INTO ALLEGED CORRUPTION WITHIN THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT'S DWI UNIT.

SEVERAL OFFICERS ALLEGEDLY WORKED WITH A DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND HIS INVESTIGATOR, RICK MENDEZ, TO GET DWI CASES DISMISSED FOR A FEE.

SOME OF THE DOCUMENTS UNSEALED IN FEDERAL COURT LAST WEEK INCLUDE A PLEA DEAL FOR MENDEZ, WHO AUTHORITIES SAY HANDLED THE DAY TO DAY COORDINATION OF THE SCHEME.

MENDEZ PLEADED GUILTY TO EIGHT CHARGES INCLUDING CONSPIRACY, BRIBERY OF A POLICE OFFICER RECEIVING FEDERAL FUNDS, AND INTERFERING WITH COMMERCE BY EXTORTION.

COURT DOCUMENTS ALSO REVEAL MENDEZ HAD BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS SCHEME SINCE AT LEAST SINCE 2008.

NOW, ANOTHER BIG PIECE OF NEWS TO COME OUT THROUGH THESE CHARGING DOCUMENTS IS THEY SHOW THE INVESTIGATION ISN'T CONFINED TO APD, AND ALSO INCLUDES THE BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE, AND NEW MEXICO STATE POLICE.

IN A STATEMENT RELEASED TUESDAY, STATE POLICE CHIEF TROY WEISLER RESPONDED TO THE POSSIBILITY OF SOME OF HIS OFFICERS BEING A PART OF THIS.

SAYING, QUOTE, IF WE DETERMINE MEMBERS OF THE STATE POLICE WERE INVOLVED, THEY WILL BE DEALT WITH SWIFTLY AND DECISIVELY.

THIS IS AN EVOLVING SITUATION AND WE WILL EVALUATE NEW INFORMATION AS IT COMES IN, END QUOTE.

THE STATEMENT SAYS THE AGENCY HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO COOPERATE WITH INVESTIGATORS.

AS FOR THE BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE, SHERIFF JOHN ALLEN CONFIRMED HE'S BEEN IN DISTRICT CONTACT WITH THE FBI AND THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.

SAYING, QUOTE, CORRUPTION HAS NO PLACE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND BCSO WILL FULLY COOPERATE WITH ITS FEDERAL PARTNERS, END QUOTE.

EIGHT APD OFFICERS HAVE RESIGNED INSTEAD OF SUBMITTING TO INTERNAL AFFAIRS INTERVIEWS.

A COMMANDER HAS ALSO BEEN FIRED, AND TWO OTHER OFFICERS REMAIN ON LEAVE PENDING INTERNAL INVESTIGATION.

MENDEZ IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS BEEN CRIMINALLY CHARGED, OR EVEN NAMED, IN PUBLIC DOCUMENTS CONNECTED TO THE CASE SO FAR.

U.S. ATTORNEY ALEXANDER UBALLEZ TOLD THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL THIS WEEK THERE'S MORE TO COME AND WE'LL BE KEEPING A CLOSE EYE ON THE CASE AS THE INVESTIGATION MOVES FORWARD.

LET'S SHIFT NOW FROM A STORY ABOUT ALLEGED CORRUPTION BY PUBLIC SAFETY PROFESSIONALS TO ONE ABOUT SAFETY ITSELF.

THE ISSUE IS TAKING UP MOST OF THE OXYGEN IN SANTA FE, AS LAWMAKERS CONVENE FOR A 60-DAY LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

TOO OFTEN, WE SEE STORIES ABOUT PUBLIC STORIES FRAMED IN TERMS OF OPPOSITION BETWEEN THE LAW ENFORCEMENT LET'S-GET-TOUGH-ON-CRIME PERSPECTIVE, AND THOSE WHO WANT IMPROVED SOCIAL SERVICES TO ADDRESS ROOT CAUSES.

NOW, WE WANTED TO FIND SOME COMMON GROUND.

SO, EXECUTIVE PRODUCE JEFF PROCTOR INVITED BERNALILLO COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY SAM BREGMAN, ONE OF THE STATE'S LEADING VOICES PUSHING FOR A TOUGHER APPROACH, AND PETER CUBRA WHO SPENT 40 YEARS AS A CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER AND AN ADVOCATE FOR A BETTER SAFETY NET, TO OUR STUDIO FOR A CHAT.

THE IDEA WAS FOR A CONVERSATION, NOT A DEBATE, TO FIND THEIR PHILOSOPHICAL DIFFERENCES AND WHERE THE TWO AGREE.

JEFF BEGINS BY ASKING BREGMAN AND CUBRA WHAT THEY HOPE TO SEE COME OUT OF THE ROUNDHOUSE TO ADDRESS PUBLIC SAFETY CONCERNS.

>> Jeff: PETER AND SAM, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR THE TIME TODAY.

AND WELCOME BACK TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> BOTH: THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: SO, THE AUDIENCE JUST HEARD LOU OUTLINE THE PARAMETERS FOR THIS CONVERSATION.

SO, WE'LL JUST JUMP RIGHT INTO IT.

SAM, WHAT ARE THE TWO OR THREE BIGGEST AND MOST SORT OF IMPORTANT THINGS THAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR IN TERMS OF WHAT COMES OUT OF THE 60-DAY LEGISLATIVE SESSION?

>> Bregman: ONE OF THE THINGS MY OFFICE DID, SHORTLY AFTER I BECAME DISTRICT ATTORNEY, WAS REALLY LOOK AT THE JUVENILE CODE.

BECAUSE WE WERE HAVING SUCH A SPIKE IN VIOLENT JUVENILE CRIME.

AND WE TOOK IT UPON OURSELVES TO MAKE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS AND CHANGES.

IN TOTAL, I THINK THERE'S 33 OR 36 OF THEM, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, OF CHANGES WE WANT TO MAKE TO THE CHILDREN'S CODE SO WE BUILD IN SOME CONSEQUENCES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE SO THEY UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU VIOLATE THE LAWS OR NORMS OF A SOCIETY, THERE'S A CONSEQUENCE.

AND WE WANT TO DO IT EARLY ON WHEN THEY FIRST GET INTO JUVENILE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM BECAUSE IF WE DON'T, WE END UP THE FIRST TIME, LATELY THE WAY IT'S BEEN GOING, IS THE CONSEQUENCES ARE AT THE END WHEN THEY'RE GETTING SENTENCED FOR FIRST-DEGREE MURDER.

AND THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE.

WE HAVE 25 JUVENILES RIGHT NOW IN THE DETENTION CENTER CHARGED WITH MURDER.

SO, MY NUMBER ONE PRIORITY IS TO GET SOMETHING DONE AS FAR AS REVISING THE CHILDREN'S CODE, SO THAT THE CHILDREN'S CODE MATCHES THE TIMES THAT WE LIVE IN.

IT HAS NOT HAD MEANINGFUL UPDATES SINCE BEFORE THE IPHONE WAS INVENTED, BACK IN THE EARLY '90s, IF YOU WILL.

SECOND THING, OBVIOUSLY, I THINK IT'S BEEN A BIG PUSH ON THE PART OF OUR GOVERNOR, AND I COMMEND HER FOR IT, IS THE WHOLE ISSUE OF COMPETENCY.

WHEN I TALK ABOUT CONSEQUENCES WITH JUVENILES, I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WE CAN ALSO AND WE SHOULD ALSO HAVE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH, FAMILY INTERVENTION, THOSE KIND OF THINGS IN OUR JUVENILE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM SO THAT WE HAVE A BALANCE.

WE CAN DO BOTH.

WE CAN WALK AND CHEW GUM AT THE SAME TIME.

COMPETENCY IS A BIG CONCERN BECAUSE WE ARE -- THOUSANDS OF CASES ARE GETTING DISMISSED EVERY SINGLE YEAR FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THE PERSON IS FOUND TO BE INCOMPETENT.

WE DON'T WANT TO TRY PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT COMPETENT TO PROVIDE THEMSELVES WITH A DEFENSE, OR KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS PROCESS.

THAT'S NOT HOW OUR JUDICIAL SYSTEM SHOULD OPERATE, NOR IS IT HOW IT DOES OPERATE.

TO THE CONTRARY.

BUT WE JUST KEEP -- THE TRUE REVOLVING DOOR, THE ULTIMATE REVOLVING DOOR, IS COMPETENCY.

WHEN SOMEONE -- LET'S JUST START AT THE LOW LEVEL.

WHEN THEY THROW A ROCK THROUGH THE WINDOW, THEY DEFECATE IN FRONT OF SOMEONE'S BUSINESS, THEY'RE CRIMINAL TRESPASSING, THEY GET CITED, THEY GET BROUGHT IN, WHATEVER.

AND THE CASE GETS DISMISSED.

AND THEY'RE BACK OUT ON THE STREET, IN THE NEXT WEEK THEY DO IT TO THE SAME BUSINESS AGAIN.

AND THE NEXT WEEK THEY DO TO THE SAME BUSINESS AGAIN.

I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS IN PRIVATE PRACTICE I HAD MY GLASS COMPANY ON SPEED DIAL.

IT HAPPENS FAR TOO OFTEN.

AND AT SOME POINT, WE'VE GOT TO SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

AND WE'VE GOT TO FIND A WAY TO GET THEM TREATED.

WHATEVER THAT MEANS, WHETHER THAT MEANS GETTING THEM ON THE MEDS OR ANYTHING ELSE THEY NEED, SO THAT THEY CAN BE COMPETENT SO WE CAN HELP THEM.

BECAUSE IT'S NOT FAIR TO THE VICTIMS OF THEIR CRIMES, AND IT'S CERTAINLY NOT FAIR TO THEM.

SO, THOSE ARE MY TWO BIG ISSUES.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

PETER, WHAT ARE A COUPLE OF THE PIECES OF LEGISLATION THAT YOU'RE KEEPING AN EYE ON THIS SESSION?

EITHER BECAUSE YOU WANT THEM TO PASS, OR BECAUSE YOU DON'T.

>> Cubra: WELL, I GUESS I COULD SAY THAT THERE ARE THREE.

IT'S BEEN SUGGESTED BY SOME THAT WE OUGHT TO FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE MENTAL HEALTH CODE.

AS YOU KNOW, I THINK YOU KNOW TOO, SAM, I'VE BEEN WORKING ON BEHALF OF PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES IN THIS STATE FOR OVER 40 YEARS.

I'VE BEEN ON VARIOUS TASK FORCES AND COMMISSIONS TO TRY AND IMPROVE OUR MENTAL HEALTH CODE.

SO, THE BIGGEST THING THAT IS BEFORE US THAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT IS A PROPOSAL FROM THE ADMINISTRATION THAT WE CHANGE THE LAW ABOUT WHAT WOULD MAKE SOMEONE COMMITTABLE.

AND THE PROPOSAL THAT I'M MOST CONCERNED ABOUT IS TO CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF A DANGER TO OTHERS IN A WAY THAT WOULD MAKE OURS THE MOST RADICAL MENTAL HEALTH CODE IN AMERICA, SO THAT PEOPLE WHO WERE JUST BEHAVING, QUOTE, INAPPROPRIATELY IN PUBLIC, COULD BE IN FACT BE INSTITUTIONALIZED AGAINST THEIR WILL, BEHIND LOCKED DOORS, FOR THAT.

SO, I THINK THAT THE MENTAL HEALTH CODE IS A VERY BIG AREA OF CONCERN WITH THIS SESSION.

I'LL SPEAK TO THE COMPETENCY POINT THAT YOU RAISED, SAM.

I DO SHARE THE VIEW THAT OUR SYSTEM FOR DEALING WITH PEOPLE WHO CANNOT BE PROSECUTED BECAUSE OF THEIR DISABILITIES IS NOT WORKING.

I DO THINK, HOWEVER, THAT THERE IS SOME CONCERN WITH WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN WITH THIS LEGISLATION.

THE QUESTION OF WHAT DO WE DO WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER HARMED AN INDIVIDUAL IN THEIR ENTIRE LIFE, BUT THEY GET CAUGHT UP IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM FOR TRESPASSING, OR FOR TENTING OUTDOORS, OR FOR JAYWALKING WHILE MENTALLY ILL, I THINK THAT'S A BIG AREA OF CONCERN.

WE HAVE PROPOSED, THROUGH OUR COALITION FOR A SAFER ALBUQUERQUE, THAT WE ESTABLISH FOR PEOPLE WITH BEHAVIORAL HEALTH NEEDS A WAIVER PROGRAM LIKE THE DD WAIVER.

IN 1984, WE SET UP THE DD WAIVER PROGRAM FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE AN INTELLECTUAL DISABILITY OR A DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITY.

SO, I HAVE SEEN THAT PROGRAM GROW FROM 232 PEOPLE TO 7,900 PEOPLE OVER 40 YEARS.

I'M ACQUAINTED WITH HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN THE DD WAIVER PROGRAM, INCLUDING PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH NEEDS, WHO HAVE PSYCHIATRIC MEDICINE, WHO SOMETIMES HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND JAILED.

BY ENROLLING THEM IN THE DD WAIVER PROGRAM WHERE THEY GET 24-HOUR SUPERVISION AND SUPPORT, WHERE THEY GET CASE MANAGEMENT AND DAY SERVICES, ACCESS TO MEDICINE, SOMEONE TO SUPPORT THEM EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY, I'VE SEEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ARRESTED BE IN THIS PROGRAM FOR DECADES WITHOUT EVER GETTING INTO TROUBLE WITH THE LAW AGAIN.

SO, I THINK THAT WE SHOULD HAVE A WAIVER PROGRAM SO THAT IF SOMEONE ENDS UP IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW BECAUSE OF A PSYCHIATRIC CONDITION OR A SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER AND OTHER BEHAVIORAL HEALTH PROBLEMS -- BRAIN INJURY IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

INSTEAD OF THOSE PEOPLE BEING RELEASED AFTER THEY'RE FOUND INCOMPETENT TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES OUT ON THE STREET, WE OUGHT TO OFFER THEM THE SAME KINDS OF SERVICES WE GIVE TO PEOPLE WITH INTELLECTUAL AND DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITIES, SO THEY DO HAVE A GROUP HOME OR A SUPPORTED LIVING ARRANGEMENT WITH CONTINUOUS SUPPORT AND SUPERVISION AND A CASE MANAGER.

AND THEY WOULD THEN END UP NOT IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW IN THE FUTURE.

THE IDEA OF INSTITUTIONALIZING SUCH PEOPLE, WHETHER THEY'RE IN A JAILHOUSE OR A PSYCHIATRIC INSTITUTION, IS THE PROBLEM THAT I HAVE WITH SOME OF THE PROVISIONS THAT I PERCEIVE IN THE COMPETENCY STATUTE THAT IS BEING PROPOSED.

>> Jeff: SAM, IS THAT -- PLEASE.

PLEASE.

>> Bregman: YOU ARE SO WELL VERSED IN THESE ISSUES.

AND I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN WORKING ON THEM MOST OF YOUR PROFESSIONAL LIFE, CLEARLY.

WHAT DO YOU DO THOUGH WITH THE PERSON THAT DOESN'T WANT THE TREATMENT, THAT REFUSES THE TREATMENT?

DO WE JUST KEEP LETTING THEM BACK OUT ON THE STREETS TO BREAK MORE WINDOWS ON OFFICE BUILDINGS?

TO TRESPASS, TO BE SCREAMING CRAZY THINGS OUT OF THE FRONT OF A BUSINESS, OR EVEN WORSE FOR EXAMPLE, WHO START TO GET A LITTLE BIT VIOLENT.

WHAT DO WE DO WITH THEM IF THEY JUST SAY NO, WE DON'T WANT TO DO YOUR TREATMENT?

WE HAVE TO FIND A MECHANISM TO FORCE THEM INTO THAT.

>> Cubra: PEOPLE WHO VOTE WITH THEIR FEET, WHO SAY THAT THEY WON'T STAY IN THEIR DD WAIVER GROUP HOME ARE VERY FEW.

ON OCCASION, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE OPTED OUT OF THE PROGRAM WHO HAVE ENDED UP HOMELESS AGAIN OR IN TROUBLE AGAIN.

BUT IT'S SUCH A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE PEOPLE THAT I WANT US TO NOT FOCUS ON THAT.

LET'S BE FRANK.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO REQUIRE INCARCERATION.

I USED TO REPRESENT EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE PRISON SYSTEM IN THE DURAN LAWSUIT.

I HAVE MET THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN OUR PRISON SYSTEM.

SOME OF THEM NEED TO BE THERE, AND SOME OF THEM NEED TO BE THERE FOR A LONG TIME.

SO, I DON'T STAND FOR THE IDEA THAT NO ONE SHOULD BE INCARCERATED JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DISABILITY.

BUT I DO STAND FOR THE IDEA THAT UNTIL WE OFFER SOMEONE SOMETHING THAT'S MEANINGFUL AND EFFECTIVE, GIVE THEM SUPERVISION, CASE MANAGEMENT, AND THE OTHER KINDS OF WRAPAROUND SERVICES WE DO FOR PEOPLE WITH LOW IQ SCORES, IT'S NOT FAIR TO SAY WE NEED TO INCARCERATE YOU OR WE NEED TO INSTITUTIONALIZE YOU UNTIL THEY GET A CHANCE.

I KNOW ALMOST NO ONE WHO IS HOMELESS WHO HAS BEEN IN THE DD WAIVER PROGRAM.

IT'S VERY RARE.

I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE PSYCHIATRICALLY IMPAIRED WHO, ONCE THEY ARE STABLE, WILL GLADLY STAY IN THAT PROGRAM.

SO, I THINK THAT IT IS A MISTAKEN WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT TO THINK THAT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THEY SAY NO TO SOMETHING THAT'S GREAT BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T GIVEN THEM ANY OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE EVEN GOOD.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO STAY ON INCARCERATION FOR JUST A SECOND, SAM.

I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THIS NEXT QUESTION.

>> Bregman: SURE.

>> Jeff: LET'S TAKE A HYPOTHETICAL FOR A SECOND.

SOMEONE BREAKS THE LAW IN NEW MEXICO, WHATEVER FLAVOR OF LAW THAT MIGHT BE.

WHETHER WE CALL IT A MISDEMEANOR, A FELONY, WHATEVER THAT HAPPENS TO BE, AN OFFENSE IS COMMITTED.

SHOULD INCARCERATION BE THE STATE'S ONLY OR DEFAULT RESPONSE FROM THE GATE?

>> Bregman: NOT ONLY, BUT IT ABSOLUTELY HAS TO BE A PART OF THE EQUATION.

WITHOUT A DOUBT.

I TRULY BELIEVE THAT THERE HAVE TO BE CONSEQUENCES.

THERE HAS TO BE CONSEQUENCES FOR BEHAVIOR WHERE PEOPLE VIOLATE THE LAW BECAUSE I HAVE A FRIEND WHO HAS BEEN SAYING THIS LATELY.

WHEN WE GREW UP, I WAS SCARED TO COMMIT A FELONY BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO JAIL.

RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE NOT AFRAID TO COMMIT A FELONY BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GO TO JAIL.

THEY WILL TELL IT TO YOU RIGHT OFF THE BAT.

JUVENILES.

WE'LL GET TO JUVENILES FOR A SECOND.

THEY STEAL CARS.

I KNOW ONE THAT STOLE FOUR IN ONE MONTH.

HE CONTINUES TO GET PUT IN THE BACK OF A CAR AFTER HE GETS CAUGHT, A POLICE CAR, AND AT THIS POINT HE TELLS THE COPS, NOW, I'M NOT GOING TO THE D-HOME.

BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE A GUN ON ME, AND I KNOW THE RULES.

IF THERE'S NO GUN ON ME, I'M GOING HOME TO MY MOM.

AND THEY SMILE AND LAUGH AT IT, AND CUSS AT THE COPS AND SAY WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT.

THEY'RE 15, 16 YEARS OLD SAYING THIS.

THERE HAS TO BE THE AVAILABILITY OF CONSEQUENCE.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING FOR ONE MINUTE THAT, RIGHT OFF THE BAT, A LOW-LEVEL DRUG OFFENSE MEANS YOU GET THROWN IN THE SLAMMER.

BECAUSE I KNOW THAT THERE'S CERTAIN PEOPLE IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT WOULD NEVER BE THERE IF WERE NOT FOR THEIR ADDICTION, FOR EXAMPLE.

WE NEED TO DO OUR BEST TO DIVERT THEM AND GIVE THEM THE KIND OF DRUG TREATMENT THAT THEY DESERVE JUST AS BEING HUMAN IN OUR COMMUNITY.

WE SHOULD BE DOING THAT.

BUT YOU KEEP DOING IT, AND YOU'RE NOT GETTING ANYWHERE, YES, THERE'S GOING TO BE CONSEQUENCES AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED.

>> Jeff: LET'S STICK ON THIS FOR JUST A MINUTE.

PETER, I WANT TO GIVE YOU A SHOT AT THIS NEXT.

I WANT TO TALK FOR A SECOND ABOUT THE IDEA OF DETERRENCE.

IS THE IDEA -- BECAUSE WE HERE THESE PHRASES, ESPECIALLY DURING LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS EVERY YEAR.

TOUGHER PENALTIES, RATCHET UP THIS, RATCHET UP THAT.

DO YOU THINK THAT LONGER SENTENCES, LONGER PERIODS OF INCARCERATION, DO THOSE SERVE AS A DETERRENT TO FUTURE CRIME?

IS THAT JUST ABOUT MAKING COMMUNITIES SAFER RIGHT NOW, OR IS IT BOTH?

>> Bregman: AGAIN, I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO JUVENILES FOR AN EXAMPLE.

WE JUST HAD A 23-YEAR-OLD SHOOT A POLICE OFFICER IN THE LEG AND HE GOT SHOT AND KILLED.

WHEN HE WAS 17 YEARS OLD, HE WAS CONVICTED OF KILLING THREE PEOPLE WITH A SHOTGUN.

HE DID SEVEN MONTHS.

AND THEN HE WAS OUT.

THAT WAS -- CALL IT DETERRENCE, CALL IT WHATEVER YOU WANT.

THAT WAS THE SENTENCE, AND THEN HE WAS OUT.

AND HE SHOT A COP.

THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE.

SO, THAT'S NOT A CONSEQUENCE LEARNED.

HE SPENT SOME TIME, IF YOU WILL, BUT SEVEN MONTHS?

NO, WHEN YOU COMMIT VIOLENT CRIMES AND, KIDS, IF YOU COMMIT ADULT CRIMES, YOU'RE GOING TO BE CHARGED AS AN ADULT IF I GET THE OPPORTUNITY.

SO, I DO THINK IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE, AND I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO DO IS PUNISH PEOPLE FOR THEIR CONDUCT, SET AN EXAMPLE, AND DETER BY PUTTING PEOPLE IN JAIL WHEN THEY CONTINUE TO COMMIT.

ANY TIME YOU COMMIT A VIOLENT CRIME.

>> Jeff: PETER, YOU'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME THINKING ABOUT AND WITH INCARCERATED PEOPLE.

WHAT'S SORT OF YOUR TAKE ON WHETHER INCREASING PENALTIES OR SOME OF THE PROPOSALS WE SEE IN THE LEGISLATURE NOW, DO ANYTHING ABOUT FUTURE CRIME?

>> Cubra: I HAVE DISCUSSED WITH EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON DEATH ROW HOW DID THAT HAPPEN.

BACK IN THE, I GUESS IT WAS THE '80s AND '90s, AND USED TO ACTUALLY -- >> Bregman: BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE DEATH ROW NOW.

[LAUGHS] >> Jeff: WE HAVEN'T FOR A LONG TIME.

>> Cubra: -- GO TO THE PRISONS WHERE SANTA FE -- WHERE WE HAD A DEATH ROW.

I GOT TO KNOW THOSE PEOPLE, AND I COULD JUST SAY THAT ONE THING THAT'S OBVIOUS TO ME IS THAT NOBODY I'VE EVER MET, WHO HAS FACED THE ULTIMATE PUNISHMENT FOR THEIR OFFENSE, THOUGHT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THEY WOULD GO TO JAIL AT THE MOMENT THEY WERE DOING IT.

SO, I HAVE TO SAY THAT IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT SOME SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE BE SEPARATED FROM SOCIETY FOR THE GOOD OF SOCIETY.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE CONSEQUENCED.

AND I DON'T BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE WHO COMMIT VIOLENT OFFENSES SHOULD BE FREE TO ROAM THE STREETS.

BUT I DO THINK THAT IT IS NEVER TRUE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMITTING SERIOUS OFFENSES ARE THINKING ABOUT WHETHER THEY'LL GET 10 YEARS OR 20 YEARS OR LIFE.

SO, I DO QUESTION ANYONE WHO SAYS THAT LONGER SENTENCES ACCOMPLISHES ANYTHING.

THERE'S A LOT OF LITERATURE THAT WOULD SUGGEST THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

BUT I DO, IN FACT, THINK THERE'S AN AREA WHERE SAM AND I ARE IN AGREEMENT, WHICH IS THE CERTAINTY OF SWIFT APPREHENSION IS THE BEST DETERRENT TO CRIME.

I DO THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE DOING MORE IN TERMS OF USING LAW ENFORCEMENT EFFICIENTLY.

BUT, IN MY MIND, WE SPEND ALMOST -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PERCENTAGE IS.

I USED TO KNOW AND I FORGOT IT IN THE MOMENT.

BUT WE SPEND A HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME HAVING POLICE OFFICERS DO THINGS THAT DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH VIOLENCE OR CRIME.

SO, THAT'S WHY THE CITY WAS PRODDED BY OUR COALITION FOR A SAFER ALBUQUERQUE TO CREATE THE ALBUQUERQUE COMMUNITY SAFETY DEPARTMENT.

SO, I THINK THAT TAKING AWAY FROM POLICE OFFICERS AS MUCH AS WE CAN SO THEY CAN FOCUS ON VIOLENT CRIME WOULD BE SMART.

SO, I THINK WE SHOULD VASTLY INCREASE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR ALBUQUERQUE COMMUNITY SAFETY.

I THINK WE SHOULD VASTLY INCREASE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO PROVIDE CASE MANAGEMENT AND SUPPORT TO PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE STREETS.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE MANY THINGS WE SHOULD DO, SO THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT WON'T BE BOTHER WITH MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS AND INTOXICATION PROBLEMS WHERE THERE'S NO CRIME AND NO DANGER OF VIOLENCE.

SO, THEN I WOULD LIKE TO SEE LAW ENFORCEMENT FOCUS ON VIOLENT CRIME AND SERIOUS OFFENSES.

SO, I THINK BUILDING UP THOSE KINDS OF SOCIAL SERVICES AND BEHAVIORAL HEALTH SERVICES AND SUBSTANCE USE TREATMENTS SERVICES WILL ALLOW POLICE OFFICERS TO GO BACK TO WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO, WHICH IS APPREHEND PEOPLE SWIFTLY WHEN THEY DO COMMIT SERIOUS OFFENSES.

>> Jeff: PLEASE.

>> Bregman: JUST, ACS FOR EXAMPLE, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.

WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE THE CONTINUED BUILDING OUT OF THAT.

I THINK IT'S FANTASTIC.

I AGREE WITH YOU ON MAKING SURE WE HAVE A BEHAVIORAL HEALTH SYSTEM THAT WORKS.

I WILL COME BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID THOUGH ABOUT INCARCERATION, FOR JUST A MINUTE.

YOU SAY, PETER, AND I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU SAY IT, THAT NOBODY SAYS I DIDN'T CARE WHETHER OR NOT I WAS GOING TO DO FIVE OR TEN YEARS, THAT'S WHY THEY DID THE CRIME, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

BUT IF YOU HAVE SOMEONE THAT DOESN'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO DO ANY TIME, BY COMMITTING CRIMES, THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO TIME, THEN THERE'S NOTHING TO LOSE FOR THEM.

SO, THEY'RE MORE INCLINED, IF YOU WILL, PEOPLE ARE MORE INCLINED IF THEY THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE NO PUNISHMENT.

IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW MUCH, NECESSARILY.

YOU'RE RIGHT ON SWIFT AND SURE.

WE'RE IN 100% AGREEMENT ON THAT.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IF THEY DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO GO TO JAIL, IF 17-YEAR-OLDS ARE TOLD BY 22-YEAR-OLDS UNTIL YOU'RE 18 DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO PUT YOU IN JAIL.

SO, WHAT'S THE FEAR?

THERE'S NO FEAR IN COMMITTING THAT CRIME.

>> Jeff: HOW DO WE GET TO SWIFT AND CERTAIN THOUGH?

IN TERMS OF APPREHENSION, LIKE PETER WAS SAYING, WHERE ARE WE FALLING DOWN WHERE THAT'S CONCERNED?

>> Bregman: I'LL TAKE YOU BACK TO JUVENILES AGAIN.

I'VE BEEN VERY FOCUSED ON THIS, OBVIOUSLY.

LISTEN, THERE'S A LOT OF CRIME IN ALBUQUERQUE.

WE DEAL WITH 18,000 CASES IN MY OFFICE ALONE.

SWIFT AND SURE, WHEN THAT KID GETS PICKED UP FOR THE STOLEN CAR, AND HE JUST GETS PUT IN THE BACK OF THE CAR AND DRIVEN HOME BECAUSE THE D-HOME WON'T TAKE HIM, THAT MAY BE A TEMPORARY ARREST.

HE MAY BE IN THE BACK OF THE CAR, AND HE MAY HAVE JUST BEEN CAUGHT DRIVING 75 TO 100 MILES AN HOUR DOWN A 30-MILE-AN-HOUR ZONE IN A STOLEN VEHICLE THAT HIM AND HIS BUDDIES STOLE.

BUT THAT'S NOT SWIFT AND SURE DETERRENCE IN ANY WAY, IF YOU'RE JUST GETTING TAKEN HOME TO YOUR MOM.

WHEN AN OFFICER SAYS, I THINK THIS KID NEEDS TO BE BOOKED IN THE D-HOME, THE D-NEEDS TO TAKE HIM.

RIGHT NOW, THAT'S NOT HAPPENING EVERY TIME.

>> Lou: WE'LL CHECK BACK IN WITH JEFF, D.A.

BREGMAN, AND PETER CUBRA IN ABOUT 10 MINUTES FOR THEIR PERSPECTIVE ON THE ROLE OF INCARCERATION IN OUR STATE'S CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

FOR NOW, LET'S HEAD BACK TO SANTA FE FOR THE SECOND HALF OF OUR CONVERSATION WITH GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM.

HER EFFORTS TO ALTER PUBLIC SAFETY LAWS IN OUR STATE HAVE BEEN WELL DOCUMENTED OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, NEARLY ALL OF THEM FALLING FLAT WITHIN HER OWN PARTY.

SO, WHERE DOES SHE THINK THAT SHE CAN MAKE PROGRESS DURING THIS SESSION?

HERE'S GWYNETH.

>> Gwyneth: THIS WEEK, YOU AND THE ALBUQUERQUE D.A., SAM BREGMAN, STUMPED FOR EARLIER AND STIFFER PENALTIES FOR KIDS WHO COMMIT VIOLENT CRIMES.

SAYING, IF WE DON'T LOCK THEM UP, THEN WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE MORE JUVENILE CRIME.

BUT THERE'S ALSO EVIDENCE SHOWING THAT ABOUT 80% OF THOSE KIDS ARE GOING TO RE-OFFEND AND GET ARRESTED WITHIN THE NEXT THREE YEARS.

ARE YOU WORRIED THAT PUTTING MORE KIDS IN DETENTION IS BASICALLY PAYING FOR THEM TO GET A Ph.D.

IN JUVENILE DELINQUENCY?

>> Lujan Grisham: WELL, IF YOU'RE NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT, AND YOU DON'T READ THAT EVIDENCE, THEN YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

BUT WE'RE IN THIS SORT OF INTERESTING JUXTAPOSITION.

WHEN THEY'RE RELEASED AND THEY'VE MURDERED SOMEONE, THEY TYPICALLY MURDER AGAIN.

IF THEY'RE IN DETENTION, THEY'RE EXPOSED TO OTHER MURDERERS.

I'M DAMNED IF I DO, AND I'M DAMNED IF I DON'T.

SO, WHY DON'T WE DO BOTH THINGS AT ONCE?

WHY DON'T WE IMPROVE OUR DETENTION SYSTEM?

WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE THE WAY THAT IT WAS?

WHY CAN'T WE HAVE SMALLER ENVIRONMENTS?

WHY CAN'T HAVE MORE PROGRAMMING, EVIDENCE-BASED, THAT DOES EVERYTHING IT CAN TO RESTORE KIDS TO A MEANINGFUL PLACE?

BECAUSE THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

I DON'T WANT THEM, AS D.A.

BREGMAN SAID, TO TURN 18 AND NOW THEY'RE GOING TO GO TO PRISON FOR LIFE.

BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN NEW MEXICO IS THEY'RE NOT STOPPING.

AND NONE OF THE SCHOOL PROGRAMS OR FAMILY INTERVENTIONS ARE STEMMING THIS.

AND THE AMOUNT OF GUNS THAT THESE KIDS HAVE, AND AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, AND THE AMOUNT OF SHOOTING THEY DO EVERY DAY OUT OF CARS, ON CAMPUSES, IN PARKING LOTS, IN NEIGHBORHOODS, IS STUNNING.

THE VIOLENCE IS STUNNING.

IF THERE'S NO ACCOUNTABILITY, I GUARANTEE YOU THEY WILL DO MORE.

I WISH I NEVER HAD TO LOCKUP ANYONE.

I DON'T THINK THAT OUR RESTORATIVE PROGRAMS AROUND THIS COUNTRY HAVE PRODUCED THE THINGS THAT WE INTENDED THEM TO.

I HAVE SOME PROUD, GOOD MOMENTS.

LIKE WE LEAD THE COUNTRY IN GETTING FOLKS GEDs IN EDUCATION, AND BACK INTO WORKFORCE.

I STILL DON'T LIKE SOME OF THOSE TRANSITIONS OUT OF JAIL AND DETENTION.

I DON'T.

WE NEED MORE MID-SCHOOL PROGRAMMING.

THAT'S A GREAT PREVENTION.

THE GUARD'S GOT SOME REALLY TERRIFIC CHALLENGE PROGRAMS.

WE RAN ONE AT JOHN ADAMS.

WE'RE GOING TO DO AT LEAST FIVE MORE MID-SCHOOLS.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE MID-SCHOOLERS WHO TYPICALLY THEY LOSE AND NEVER GO BACK TO SCHOOL WHEN THEY'RE IN TROUBLE, ALL WENT BACK TO SCHOOL.

SO, I THINK THAT HAS -- WHY AREN'T I RUNNING THOSE PROGRAMS INSIDE DETENTION?

SMALLER, MORE MEANINGFUL, LOTS MORE ATTENTION.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE?

A LOT MORE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH THAT'S EVIDENCE-BASED AND STRATEGIC, NOT SORT OF THIS -- DO YOU REMEMBER THE THING I USED TO GET ALL MAD ABOUT THAT WE'D REIMBURSE NURSING HOMES FOR WHAT I CALLED WAVE THERAPY.

SO A PHYSICAL THERAPIST WOULD COME IN AND WAVE AT ALL THE RESIDENTS AND BILL FOR EVERY ONE?

WE NEED BEHAVIORAL HEALTH PROVIDERS.

THEY'VE GOTTEN A BAD RAP IN OUR STATE.

THE LAST ADMINISTRATION DID NOT DO RIGHT BY THEM.

BUT WHEN EVERYTHING IS EASY TELEHEALTH, AND IT'S ONE SIZE FITS ALL, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'RE REALLY GETTING TO THE HEART OF THE ISSUES THAT NEED THE ATTENTION.

I CAN DO BOTH.

AND THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THIS, WE MUST.

WE MUST.

WE MUST DO BOTH.

>> Gwyneth: ONE REPUBLICAN STATE SENATOR IS CONSIDERING A PROPOSAL THAT WOULD MAKE IT A CAPITAL CRIME TO SELL FENTANYL TO SOMEONE WHO THEN DIES OF AN OVERDOSE.

SO, THE BILL WOULD MAKE IT PUNISHABLE BY LIFE IN PRISON.

ANOTHER GOP BILL WOULD ADD YEARS ONTO THE SENTENCE OF SOMEONE CONVICTED OF SELLING MORE THAN ABOUT TWO POUNDS OF FENTANYL.

AT THE SAME TIME, PRESIDENT BIDEN JUST PARDONED A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO WERE IN PRISON HAVING RECEIVED DISPROPORTIONATE OFFENSES BECAUSE THEY SOLD CRACK INSTEAD OF POWDER COCAINE, RIGHT?

>> Lujan Grisham: PENDULUM SWING RIGHT BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED.

>> Gwyneth: HAS THE SITUATION GOTTEN SO BAD THAT WE'RE BACK TO THE WAR ON DRUGS?

>> Lujan Grisham: I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE WAR ON DRUGS HAS EVER HAD A CREDIBLE IMPACT, AND THE PEOPLE WANT TO SELL DRUGS ALREADY HAVE THE NEXT FENTANYL-PLUS READY TO GO IN THE MARKET.

EVERY TIME WE FOCUS ON ONE AND WE NAME IT, ANOTHER ONE COMES.

AND THEN IT'S NOT A CRIME.

I THINK THE WAY THAT WE ADDRESS FENTANYL ON THE CHANGING THE CRIMINAL CODE SIDE IS WE REALLY DON'T KEEP PEOPLE INCARCERATED, WHICH IS AWFUL.

THE FACT THAT WE'RE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THAT THEY WE HAVE A PROBLEM, I DON'T WANT THESE PROBLEMS.

NO ONE DOES.

BUT IF YOU'RE A DRUG DEALER AND SOMEONE DIES OF AN OVERDOSE, I THINK YOU SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT DEATH.

THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT SENTENCING CRITERIA.

I'M VERY INTERESTED IN THAT.

I'M INTERESTED IN THE RICO BILL THAT ALSO REALLY GETS AT DRUG TRAFFICKING.

I THINK THESE ARE MORE MEANINGFUL MEASURES.

BUT I WANT TO SAY, BECAUSE IT'S TRUE, I HAVE NOW MOVED IN FAVOR OF MORE TIME BEHIND BARS FOR SERIOUS FELONY CRIMES.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE OUT IN FIVE YEARS OR SEVEN YEARS, I HAVE ALL THE DATA THAT SHOWS YOU IMMEDIATELY RE-OFFEND.

SO, AGAIN, I NEED TO BE DOING A BETTER JOB.

WE ALL DO, RIGHT?

WHATEVER WE'RE DOING IN PRISONS ACROSS AMERICA, WHEN WE OVER-INCARCERATE, DOESN'T SEEM TO WORK.

TWO, IF YOU'RE RIGHT BACK OUT, THEY ALL RE-OFFEND.

AND WHAT ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE VICTIMIZED?

IF YOU'RE IN FOR ANOTHER SEVEN YEARS, THE ONE THING I CAN GUARANTEE YOU IS THAT I WON'T HAVE A VICTIM IN THOSE ADDITIONAL SEVEN YEARS.

AND WE HAVE A SIGNIFICANT VIOLENT CRIME ISSUE, AND A SIGNIFICANT GUN ISSUE.

THOSE ARE TWO I FAVOR BETTER THAN SO FAR ONE WAY THAT IT DOESN'T -- IT'S NOT GOING TO GET WHAT WE NEED.

RIGHT SIZE, SMART, AND INCLUDING THE EVIDENCE WHERE WE'RE NOT GETTING IT RIGHT IN EMBEDDING THOSE IN THESE STRATEGIES, I THINK, IS THE RIGHT RECIPE FOR NEW MEXICO RIGHT NOW.

>> Gwyneth: THE OTHER DAY, YOU CITED A STATISTIC, SAYING THAT SINCE 2017, MORE THAN 18,000 CRIMINAL CASES HAVE BEEN DISMISSED BECAUSE OF COMPETENCY.

AGAIN, YOU FIND YOURSELF SLIGHTLY TO THE RIGHT OF YOUR PARTY ON THESE ISSUES.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF AN AWKWARD POSITION.

>> Lujan Grisham: IS IT?

>> Gwyneth: WELL, NOT FOR ME.

>> Lujan Grisham: NOT FOR ME.

>> Gwyneth: WHAT'S YOUR BEST ARGUMENT FOR FORCING PEOPLE TO GET TREATMENT?

>> Lujan Grisham: WELL, IT IS THE ONLY WAY FOR A SELECT GROUP TO GET THEM THE HELP THAT THEY NEED.

LOOK, WE JUST HAD A LOSS OF LIFE IN AN OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTING THIS LAST WEEKEND IN ALBUQUERQUE.

WHERE A GENTLEMAN IN AN APARTMENT, WHO I'M SURE WAS GIVEN AND DESERVED IT, A VOUCHER.

HE WAS HAVING TROUBLE AND LIVING ON THE STREETS AND CYCLING THROUGH ANY NUMBER OF THINGS, BUT WHO HAD AN INCREDIBLY VIOLENT HISTORY.

NO GUARDRAILS, NO REQUIRED TREATMENT.

AND HOW DID THAT END?

WE'RE LUCKY THAT ANOTHER INNOCENT PERSON LIVING AT THAT APARTMENT DIDN'T DIE.

QUITE FRANKLY, WE'RE REALLY LUCKY THAT OFFICER DIDN'T DIE.

IT IS HORRIFIC ENOUGH THAT A MAN WITH A SERIOUS MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE HAD NOWHERE TO BE OR GO.

THAT WAS THE ONLY OPTION.

SO, I'M GOING TO START TO PROVIDE, AND MAYBE I CAN DO ANOTHER INTERVIEW WITH YOU -- LOOK, I'VE GOT CASES WHERE WE'VE DONE IT RIGHT.

WHERE A JUDGE HAS MADE A NINE-MONTH COMMITMENT.

THEY MEET THE CURRENT STANDARDS, BUT THEY'RE JUST TOO NARROW.

I'VE GOT A CASE FOR A GUY NAMED WALTER WHO NEEDED THAT COMMITMENT.

HE WAS GOING TO KILL HIMSELF OR OTHERS.

HE CAME OUT OF THAT COMMITMENT.

HE WILL SAY, I'M WELL FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE.

I'M IN THE RIGHT SERVICES, I'M ON THE RIGHT MEDICATION, AND I FEEL LIKE I CAN PARTICIPATE WITH MY FAMILY AND COMMUNITY.

WILL EVERY RESULT BE SO GOOD?

PROBABLY NOT.

WE'RE NOT GETTING CLOSE.

I TALKED TO SOMEONE WHO IS UNHOUSED, MANY, EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I STOP EVERY SINGLE DAY SOMEWHERE.

I ALWAYS OFFER.

WHAT SERVICES?

CAN I HELP?

DO YOU NEED SHELTER?

DO YOU NEED CLOTHES?

DO YOU NEED FOOD?

DO YOU WANT MY NUMBER?

COULD I EVER FIND YOU?

COULD I CALL YOU?

WORRIED ABOUT YOU, SHOULD I BE WORRIED?

JUST TRYING TO START.

ONE THOUSAND PERCENT OF THE TIME, NO ONE HAS ASKED ME FOR ANYTHING THAT CREATES SOMETHING MORE PERMANENT IN THEIR LIVES.

I GOT ASKED FOR HEARING AIDS.

I PROVIDED THEM.

I GOT ASKED FOR SOME DENTAL CARE AND GLASSES.

I PROVIDED THAT.

I COULDN'T GET THEM INTO HOUSING OR SHELTER.

IT TOOK ME SEVEN MONTHS TO GET A LOVELY WOMAN IN A SMALL COMMUNITY WITH AN 11-YEAR-OLD OUT OF THEIR CAR.

DIDN'T TRUST US, VERY NERVOUS, WHAT DID IT MEAN.

THAT'S A LONG TIME.

SHE DOES NOT QUALIFY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES FOR COMMITMENT.

NOT SIGNIFICANTLY MENTALLY ILL, NO DANGER TO HERSELF OR HER CHILD.

BUT IT IS HARD TO GET PEOPLE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, I MIGHT NEED A LITTLE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH SUPPORT.

THEY AREN'T CHECKING THEMSELVES IN ANYWHERE.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO THE TRIAGE CENTER.

I'M PICKING YOU UP, AFTER A 911 CALL, AND TAKING YOU THERE.

THEY'RE NOT WALKING IN.

WE HAVE 150 OPEN BEDS.

SO, WE'RE NOT GOING TO OVERCOMMIT.

WE SHOULD NEVER OVER-INCARCERATE.

BUT EVERY TOOL SHOULD MEET THE APPROPRIATE CIRCUMSTANCE, AND TO SAY THAT IT DOESN'T AT ALL CREATES CHAOS.

AND THAT IS WHERE I THINK NEW MEXICO IS.

>> Lou: THANKS TO GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM AND HER TEAM FOR MAKING TIME TO SPEAK WITH HER THIS WEEK.

AND THANKS TO GWYNETH.

YOU CAN CATCH HER WEEKLY REPORT FROM THE ROUNDHOUSE EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT DURING THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

NOW, LET'S RETURN TO EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR'S CONVERSATION WITH BERNALILLO COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY SAM BREGMAN, AND LONGTIME CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER PETER CUBRA.

THEIR DISCUSSION PICKS BACK UP WITH THEIR THOUGHTS ON THE EFFECTIVENESS OF INCARCERATION IN NEW MEXICO, AND THE SYSTEMS MEANT TO KEEP PEOPLE WHO SERVED TIME FROM COMMITTING CRIMES AGAIN.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS INSIDE, AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS FOR FOLKS WHEN THEY GET OUTSIDE.

I'LL STAY WITH YOU FOR A MOMENT, SAM.

ARE WE DOING ENOUGH WHEN FOLKS ARE INCARCERATED, WHETHER THAT BE IN JAIL, PRISON OR BOTH IN MANY INSTANCES, TO ENSURE THAT THEY DON'T COME BACK?

>> Bregman: I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK YOU CAN ARMCHAIR THAT ISSUE TO DEATH IN THE SENSE THAT, WELL, I WISH WE WOULD HAVE HAD THIS PROGRAM.

I WISH WE HAD THIS PROGRAM.

I CAN'T TELL YOU, SPECIFICALLY, ALL THE PROGRAMS IN THE PRISON SYSTEM, NOR IN THE JAIL.

I DO KNOW THEY'RE ARE SOME PROGRAMS.

THE LARGEST MENTAL HEALTH PROVIDER IN THE STATE RIGHT NOW IS MDC.

WHEN I SAY MENTAL HEALTH PROVIDER -- >> Jeff: THAT'S BEEN TRUE FOR 20 YEARS.

>> Bregman: YEAH, THAT'S WHERE SO MANY PEOPLE ARE.

I THINK WE CAN DO BETTER ON ALL THOSE THINGS.

I THINK WE CAN DO -- LISTEN, WE CAN DO BETTER WHEN IT COMES TO JUVENILES, WHEN IT COMES TO ADULTS IN OUR SYSTEM.

WE, OF COURSE, KNOW THAT MOST OF THEM ARE NOT IN FOR LIFE.

MOST OF THEM ARE GOING TO GET OUT.

AND WE HAVE A COMMUNITY THAT THEY HAVE TO LIVE IN AND ABIDE BY THE LAWS AND NORMS.

AND WE HAVE TO ENSURE WE'RE DOING OUR BEST WE CAN AS A COMMUNITY, AS A SOCIETY, TO GET THEM READY FOR THAT.

EVEN IF IT IS AFTER 30 YEARS.

I WILL TELL YOU, WE'VE CONVICTED OVER 280 PEOPLE OF MURDER IN BERNALILLO COUNTY IN THE LAST TWO YEARS.

280 PEOPLE.

THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF PEOPLE.

THEY'RE GOING TO DO A LONG TIME IN PRISON.

SOME OF THEM MAY GET OUT, MANY WON'T.

BUT SOME OF THEM WILL.

JUST BECAUSE OF THE LENGTH OF THEIR SENTENCES.

OF COURSE, WE ALL HOPE THAT THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE IN THERE, SO THAT THEY ARE READY WHEN THEY DO COME OUT.

AND WHATEVER PRODUCTIVE LIFE, THEY ARE HUMANS, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT.

>> Jeff: PETER, WHO IS IN THE PRISONS AND JAILS IN THIS STATE?

AND WHAT SHOULD THE STATE'S ROLE BE WHEN THEY GET OUT, IN TERMS OF ENSURING THAT THEY DON'T DO SOMETHING THAT SENDS THEM BACK?

>> Cubra: WELL, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT PEOPLE WHO GET INCARCERATED IN OUR STATE, AS WITH OTHER STATES, ARE ALMOST ALWAYS PEOPLE WHO COME FROM FAMILIES OF LIMITED MEANS.

AND 90% OF THE PEOPLE INCARCERATED IN OUR ALBUQUERQUE JAIL ARE INTOXICATED AND UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF SOMETHING AT THE MOMENT OF THEIR ARREST.

SO, I WOULD SAY THAT THOSE ARE THE TWO POPULATIONS WHO MOST FREQUENTLY GET THEMSELVES INCARCERATED.

PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR, PEOPLE WHO USE SUBSTANCES.

SO, I DO WANT TO JUST SHIFT THE LENS A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE I CAN'T TAKE, AND I DON'T TAKE ISSUE WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, SAM, THAT PEOPLE WHO COMMIT VIOLENCES NEED TO BE SEPARATED FOR HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES TO KEEP OTHER PEOPLE SAFE.

SO, KNOW I'M GOING TO SHOCK SOME PEOPLE TO SAY I WANT SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE STREETS TODAY TO BE BEHIND BARS SOON.

I AM NOT SOMEONE WHO THINKS THERE'S NO PLACE FOR INCARCERATION.

BUT WHAT I THINK IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT IN THE LONG RUN IS WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR, WHO ARE IN SUBSTANCE-ABUSING FAMILIES, WHO GET IN TROUBLE WHEN THEY'RE YOUNG?

I THINK THAT THE LACK OF SOCIAL SERVICES AND THE LACK OF BEHAVIORAL HEALTH SERVICES THAT WE DON'T PROVIDE TO CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS FROM THOSE BACKGROUNDS, ONCE THEY FIRST HAVE SOME DIFFICULTY AT SCHOOL, EVEN BEFORE THERE WAS A JUSTICE INVOLVEMENT, IS THE BIG PROBLEM THAT WE HAVEN'T YET TALKED ABOUT.

>> Bregman: IT'S SHOCKING.

IT'S BAD.

I AGREE WITH YOU.

>> Cubra: I WAS A SPECIAL ED TEACHER BEFORE I WENT TO LAW SCHOOL.

AND THE CHILD WELFARE SYSTEM, I SPENT DECADES -- I CREATED, TOGETHER WITH ELLA JOAN FENOGLIO, ADVOCACY INC TO PROVIDE LAWYERS TO CHILDREN WHO ARE IN THE CYFD SYSTEM.

BACK IN THOSE DAYS, IT WAS THE HUMAN SERVICE DEPARTMENT THAT RAN CHILD WELFARE.

OUR CHILD WELFARE SYSTEM JUST HAS BEEN HORRIBLE SINCE BEFORE IT WAS CALLED CYFD.

SO, I DO THINK THAT WE NEED TO COMMIT OURSELVES TO IMPROVING THAT, FIRST AND FOREMOST, BECAUSE MANY ADOLESCENT AND EVEN YOUNGER CHILD, IF THEY HAD GOTTEN SOCIAL SERVICES, BEHAVIORAL HEALTH SERVICES AND SUPPORT WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG, THEY NEVER WOULD BECOME JUVENILE OFFENDERS.

I DO THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE TO KEEP OUR EYE ON.

THROWING MONEY AT IT WON'T WORK, BUT HONESTLY, I WAS AT A HEARING RECENTLY WHERE THE SECRETARY OF CYFD WAS TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY HAD ASKED FOR MORE SOCIAL WORKERS AND MORE MONEY FOR ASSISTANTS TO TAKE THE WORKLOAD OFF THEIR CYFD PLACEMENT WORKERS AND HAVE ADMINISTRATORS DO IT.

THE LEGISLATURE DIDN'T ACTUALLY GRANT THEIR APPROPRIATION THAT WAS REQUESTED BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

SO, THIS YEAR, OUR GOVERNOR HAS ASKED FOR SUBSTANTIAL INCREASES THERE.

I THINK WE SHOULD DO THAT.

I WANT TO THANK THE GOVERNOR FOR DOING THAT BECAUSE WE DO NEED TO RESOURCE THAT DEPARTMENT.

I HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER WHO WAS A CYFD SOCIAL WORKER UNTIL RECENTLY BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T TAKE THE STRESS ANY LONGER.

SO, I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF THE YOUNG AND THE ADOLESCENTS MUCH, MUCH BETTER WHEN THEY'RE FROM THESE FAMILIES THAT HAVE THESE CHALLENGES OF POVERTY AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE.

I THINK THAT, IN THE LONG RUN, IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING WE DO LATER ON.

>> Jeff: SAM, I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO KIDS.

>> Bregman: YEAH.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO JUST TAKE THIS, FOR A SECOND, OUT OF THE CONTEXT OF GOVERNMENT, THE LEGAL SYSTEM, OR ANY OTHER THING RELATED TO PEOPLE WHOSE NAMES ARE ON BALLOTS.

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, AS A COMMUNITY, TO HELP THE KIDS WHO LIVE HERE?

>> Bregman: A COUPLE THINGS ON THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, YOU CAN GO BACK TO WHAT PETER JUST SAID.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH HIM ON THE SYSTEMIC ROOT CAUSES OF THIS.

WITH EDUCATION, AS WELL AS POVERTY, ALL THOSE ISSUES, AND WHAT ARE WE DOING TO HELP THOSE KIDS WHO DON'T GET THE SAME CARDS DEALT TO THEM THAT MANY OF US DID WHEN WE WERE YOUNG KIDS.

I THINK, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE AS A COMMUNITY NEED TO RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT -- BY THE WAY, I DON'T WANT TO THROW THE KEY AWAY ON ANY KID.

THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE.

BUT WE DO NEED TO BUILD IN CONSEQUENCES.

I'VE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT THAT.

YOU KNOW, AS PARENTS, AND I'VE BEEN OUT TO A LOT OF HIGH SCHOOLS TALKING TO LOT OF KIDS.

A LOT OF GYMNASIUMS FULL OF ENTIRE HIGH SCHOOLS.

THIS IS SO MUCH OF A DIFFERENT TIME THAN WHEN I WAS GROWING UP.

WE DIDN'T HAVE SOCIAL MEDIA WHEN I WAS GROWING UP.

KIDS DIDN'T FLASH A GUN IN A PICTURE AND GET A BUNCH OF LIKES AND THINK THAT'S HOW THEY BECOME POPULAR.

SO, I THINK WE AS A COMMUNITY, WE AS FAMILY, WE AS PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS AND RELATIVES, KNOW WHAT'S IN YOUR KIDS BACKPACK.

THE SIMPLE THINGS.

KNOW WHAT'S IN YOUR KID'S BACKPACK WHEN THEY GO TO SCHOOL.

KNOW WHAT'S IN THEIR CAR WHEN THEY'RE DRIVING THEIR CAR.

KNOW WHAT'S IN THEIR SOCIAL MEDIA APP.

WE HAVE TO STAY INVOLVED WITH OUR KIDS BECAUSE, MY GOD, THE LAST THING WE WANT THEM TO DO IS TO END UP IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

AND WORSE, END UP IN CRIMINAL VIOLENT SITUATIONS, WHETHER YOU'RE THE VICTIM OR THE PERPETRATOR.

>> Jeff: WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE.

SAM BREGMAN, PETER CUBRA, THANK YOU BOTH.

I WANT TO DO THIS AGAIN, SOMEWHAT SOON, IF YOU WILL BOTH AGREE.

>> Bregman: I'M FINE WITH THAT.

I ENJOYED IT.

THANK YOU.

>> Cubra: THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: THANKS TO YOU BOTH.

>> Lou: THANKS TO THE GOVERNOR, DISTRICT ATTORNEY SAM BREGMAN, AND PETER CUBRA.

AND THANKS TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THIS SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.