- [Announcer Woman] Funding for "Governor's Perspectives With Kent Manahan" has been provided by NJM Insurance Group, serving the insurance needs of residents and businesses for more than 100 years.

Seton Hall University, Seton Hall School of Law and by Connell Foley LLP.

[upbeat guitar music] - I renew my promise to you whether you voted for me or not, to work every single day of the next four years to keep moving us forward.

- [Kent] And so it went a win for governor Murphy, but not decided until a day after election day when he declared victory as the first New Jersey democratic governor to win re-election since Governor Brendan Byrne 44 years ago.

- If you want to be governor of all of New Jersey, you must listen to all of New Jersey.

[crowd cheering] and New Jersey, I hear you.

- [Kent] Former assembly man, Jack Ciattarelli who portrayed Murphy as a too liberal outsider who raised taxes, came within about 74,000 votes in a state where there are a million more registered Democrats than registered Republicans.

And that was a vote margin smaller than the pollsters and the pundits actually predicted.

Ciattarelli finally conceded.

- There were those who thought I couldn't win, there were those who told me I wouldn't win fact is we almost did when.

- [Kent] Despite the Murphy win, New Jersey's democratically controlled legislature is in a bit of a shakeup with the GOP gaining seats in this election and the Senate President Steve Sweeney's surprising loss of his election and his leadership post to an unknown Republican challenger.

Many are now wondering what's ahead for New Jersey.

With us now to talk about what's ahead for New Jersey, former governors, Tom Kean, Jon Corzine.

So good to have you here, to get your views after this election and both of you have run your fair share of elections in your time.

This one though was a very close margin of victory, closer than the pollsters and the pundits would've predicted.

Not as close as your election in 1981 Governor Kean, that was what?

1,797 votes, the election was decided by not until six weeks later though.

- No I still hold both records, closest election and the biggest margin of victory.

- Well I think you're gonna continue to hold that record even with this race but it was a close race For Jack Ciattarelli.

What are the takeaways in your view?

- First takeaway is Jack Ciattarelli was a very good candidate and nobody recognized that when he started running, But he turned out to be somebody that people in Jersey took to and they got to know him better and the better they get to know him, the better they liked him.

And so he was moving in a ways that the pollsters didn't see.

He went to every corner of the state in enormous amounts of energies, started early in the morning, you had all day, every day, seven days a week.

And the result was he came very, very close and my view is that he was creeping up and if he had one more week, I think he would've made it.

So he fell a week short but he has all the credit in the world for a very, very good campaign.

- You may disagree with that, but let me ask you this, Governor-- - Well I wouldn't disagree that a candidate that was supposedly down 15, 20 points in polls, early polls, closing the gap did something right.

And he obviously ran a very good campaign.

I do have a takeaway though, that I would also like to emphasize.

I thought a factoid this week, that in Virginia and New Jersey, there have been 18 elections where a sitting president is of the same party as the candidate in either one of those states.

And only twice in those 18 races, did somebody win, was of the same party as the president.

Phil Murphy did something that was really counter trend to how history has fallen in off off-year's election.

So I know something about that since I lost one of those.

First governor and democratic governor in 44 years.

But I think the fact that we have a pretty uneasy environment because of COVID and all of the decisions that have to be made 'cause of the first term presidents declining popularity.

I think Phil Murphy did a pretty doggone good job of campaigning himself to get through some of the historical patterns that have existed.

- Well now he has four more years.

- I got elected in a incumbent president on my own party, so for one year.

- Right.

- But-- - He was very popular in 18-- - No, no.

- 1984?

- No, no, no.

- 1981.

- 81.

- No I'm talking about in 84 though.

- In 84 he was very popular but not in 81 when I had that close election, he was unpopular actually.

- People told me "don't have him in" and I said are you crazy?

A president wants to come with me, I'll say no to him?

So I had him in and it was beautiful.

- And you eked by, maybe that was the deal, maybe that was what turned the election for you.

But I want to get back to Governor Murphy because as you indicated, the first democratic governor to be reelected since Brendan Byrne, 44 years ago.

What are the implications for how he'll lead in a second term?

- Well I think it's not just the governor, governor has to work with the legislature.

There are big changes in course, in the legislature, the Senate President lost in a shocking, stunning, upset.

And I think it is reflective of some real unease in the electorate on a lot of issues.

I think the most important one being, is people are just damn tired of having to deal with COVID and all of the issues that that implies for how kids are educated, where they can go.

There are a lot of people that haven't been able to return to the workforce.

A lot of the service industries leisure and hospitality are not operating in a same way that they have been able to.

And so I think there's a lot of unease out there and-- - You're absolutely right.

- And that sets up an environment that I think makes it very difficult for anyone to do really well.

And government tends to take a little bit of a hit on that.

- Well he's got some additional problems.

I mean, yes it certainly wasn't his fault, Biden sent far, blow anybody including my expectations.

- So the president could have had an effect on this election.

- [Tom] Oh yes.

- But also did the voter's governor send Governor Murphy a message in this election, is his agenda too progressive for this state?

Is there some soul searching that has to go on now?

- I think he should look at that.

I don't think he agrees, [Jon and Tom laughing] but I think he should look at that because I think there is, I mean, the issues haven't changed over the years in New Jersey, terribly much the top issue is still taxes and the cost of living.

A lot of people in this state complete can't afford to stay here and they're always running to catch up and they leave.

And in addition to that, some of the people who pay our largest taxes leave.

And so we end up paying more taxes and that wasn't addressed at all.

And to me, that's not only that issue for him, it's been an issue for years and in the state of New Jersey and we have, you know, probably the most expensive state to live in the country right now.

And we have the highest income tax rates in the country and the highest property taxes in the country.

And that's we want to be best at a lot of things but not taxes.

[Jon and Tom laughing] - [Jon] I would agree with that.

- Is there an important message that the Democrats have to get out to the people of New Jersey given the results of this election?

- Well first of all, we have two different electorates.

We have the people who vote in presidential elections, the fall-off is very dramatic, I think we had 60% or 65% of the population eligible to vote, voted in the presidential, it's something like 37%.

- [Kent] 30 per 7% including the current election.

- And I know this all too well, I have scars from this.

The fall-off in the democratic vote in 2009 was about 1 million, 2 and I think it was 1 million, 3 this time.

And so you really have to address a different set of circumstances, different population when you go to campaign.

And I think the message that that group is saying I think is very much more in line with what governor Kean is talking about.

I think taxes are very high on the list of the agenda of people.

I have a great suggestion on that, Phil Murphy and all of the people of New Jersey on both sides of the aisle get on a bus and go to Washington, tell them to do away with this cap on SALT, the state and local taxes, one of the biggest-- - That's a 10,000 cap at this time.

- Right and the average property tax bill is $9,000, now maybe $9,200 in the state, This is absolutely excruciating.

And it bumped up in the last three years and it needs to be addressed for the people of New Jersey dramatically.

- I think you're absolutely right and I think if they don't address it, there's gonna be hell to pay in the next election.

- Oh yeah, oh absolutely.

- Because every Congressman in New Jersey on both sides of the aisle ran to bring back SALT now they have a chance to do it.

Democrats are in control so they get the responsibility but every Democrat ran to bring back SALT.

- Let me ask you that you both just mentioned about high taxes in New Jersey ever since I've covered campaigns in New Jersey, the tax issue has always been an issue for New Jerseyans and Jack Ciattarelli very effectively ran an ad in this campaign, showing Governor Murphy talking just two years ago in 2019 about the fact that if taxes are your issue, maybe New Jersey isn't the state for you.

Why did governor Murphy go there in that message?

- Heaven's knows.

[Jon laughing] he shouldn't have, and he paid a price for it.

- [Kent] So that was a mistake?

- Of course it was a mistake and but I think he isn't as sensitive to the tax issue as some governors have been and I think he better get sensitive to it because it's his people.

I mean really, you pay that property tax bill in the state than it and it hurts.

And then you see in the end you feel with the income taxes you see people going out the door.

And I think you have got to, I mean, I've got an awful lot of friends who are not in New Jersey anymore because they just, their accountant showed them the difference, they left and went to South Carolina or Florida or somewhere and they leave.

And it's not only the rich folks, if you come where I live, which is about 35, 40 minutes from the Delaware river, you look around the local post office and the drugstore and so on, the cars parked outside have Pennsylvania license plates.

These people have found out they can save all those taxes by living in Pennsylvania, it's not just the rich.

- Well New Jersey doesn't exactly have a business-friendly reputation either.

And the tax situation, is there a need for real tax reform?

Rebates spring relief but real tax reform has been talked about for eons in New Jersey.

- There is a fundamental issue that drives property taxes that can be addressed and almost every governor has talked about it.

Some of us have tried to do things to incentivize but we have 21 counties, 566 municipalities, I don't know.

- Everybody likes their independence.

- And, you know, we have more firetrucks in Bergen county than they have in New York city.

And you know, it needs to be addressed at a basic causal root and that's not a Republican or democratic issue it is just common sense.

The economies of scale make a lot of sense and when you don't have 'em, you end up building them up.

We also can do things for the future about pensions, but we did sign contracts that get us into a situation where we need pension reform for the future but you didn't promise people certain things in the past and you have obligations to live up to.

So, there are lots of issues but I think maybe addressing the consolidation of how we deliver services in the state is the most important step that can be taken to actually do something about pushing down on property taxes.

I think that there are philosophical differences about how progressive the tax system should be and whether we should have some redistribution element particularly as it relates to education and healthcare, some of the social services.

And that I think is a place where political leaders need to debate and come to those kinds of conclusions.

We have those debates almost every four years but it's important that we have all of our children educated on a suburb basis as New Jersey does general.

- Yeah, New Jersey spends a lot of money on education I mean now are very close to number one, although we have Massachusetts area.

The only differences Massachusetts spends 1/3 less and has just as good education as we do.

So we should examine that too.

- Well but that, some of that Tom is the same thing that I just talked about.

We have a much more fragmented educational environment than most states.

So we have more superintendents and more infrastructure to support the operation of the school system.

There are other issues-- - But we should address it you know a number of years ago, very little noted, the cost of education as composed to administration got less.

We were paying much more for administration and education now than we are paying for teaching.

And that really shouldn't be.

- No.

- A real examination or re-examination of this issue, maybe with focus groups around the state, maybe not the pollsters this time driving the issues in New Jersey, But focus groups out and about talking to people and what they think can help to bring back some of the reform that you're talking about.

I want to switch gears to Steve Sweeney, the Senate President, a big surprise in this election cycle.

He lost a seat, he lost his Senate Presidency.

He's the longest serving Senate President in New Jersey state history.

He lost to a Republican unknown candidate who spent something in the area of about $1,500 and won this election.

What happened?

What are your thoughts on that race?

- Well so Sweeney always ran way ahead of his party ' in that district, that district has been trending more Republican over the years.

And I think what happened when you were talking about who votes in this election caught up in that district too.

And he was just caught on the wins.

He was a point of stability in the state, and he did a lot of good things for the state he really did.

And I think he was a good balance occasionally of the governor so I'm sorry to see him loose.

- Well it's interesting you say that because I took time to talk to Democrats and Republicans in that part of the state about this race in particular.

And he gets praise from both sides of the aisle for what he did for that part of south Jersey.

- This is in my view, a protest vote about the circumstances we're living in.

It's either a protest about how we've handled COVID in that part of the state, some of the aggressive steps, positive steps in my view that the governor took, were not as a welcomed as they were in other parts of the state.

The popularity of Democrats as Governor Kean has talked about, has deteriorated in southern New Jersey quite substantially over the last decade.

It's really, we've got unfortunately a divide between north and south and I think it shows up in that vote.

And I think he was an easy place for people to express that.

And I don't think it had a whole lot to do with him or his performance.

I think it is, I'm sending you a passionate statement that I don't like the way things are.

- Well, generally speaking this area of the state has become more Republican.

And perhaps this was a reflection of that.

And the Democrats there just thought these people would show up and underestimate the challenger and who would show up at the polls.

- It's not even a Republican though, It's more conservative.

You know and I think when you have a governor who is one of the most liberal governors in the country, an area that's going more conservative go like this.

- I want to ask you though, is this an indication of how things might look for next year's congressional races?

I mean you look at New Jersey, only two gubernatorial elections in the country this year, Virginia and New Jersey.

And then with our full legislature up and Steve Sweeney, an indication of he lost this race.

What does that indicate for the congressional races to come next year?

- Well history-- - And New Jersey's congressional delegation.

- If history is any guide, midterm elections after a president is elected are not very welcoming just as gubernatorial candidates are not of the same party as recently elected president, generally, not Tom Kean of course [Tom laughing], generally have not been as welcoming as Democrats are gonna want in the upcoming midterms.

So there's a hill to climb and I think the hill is to make sure that if you were a Democrat, if you're rooting for Democrats, I know I am, then you have to get out the vote as if it were a presidential election.

You really have to work in a way that I don't think we've always brought the elbow and a shoulder to the grist mill.

- How do you look at it Governor Kean?

Two Republicans in the delegation of 12, the other 10 Democrats.

- Well look, I think this was a shot across the bow, this election and I think unless things change.

And I think maybe in Washington and in Trenton, I mean, I think if the governor starts listening a little more.

You know, Jersey is not a liberal state, it's always been sort of a middle of the road state, and this is the most liberal governor in the country right now and proud of it.

I don't disagree with him on everything, but some follow, a lot of us like.

And I think people feel that at the same time that Joe Biden and the disappearing Camilla Harris are not very popular either.

And that's a very difficult combination for the Democrats to overcome.

So whether or not it's the Democrats hope if the president gets his big package through and that kind of thing where the things will change.

I don't know, I doubt it.

I doubt it, I think people it's hard these days and people are fed up with what's going on.

They want change and if you're in they want you out.

And and that's sort of across the board I think right now.

And so-- - And I also think the public likes a divided government.

They like the checks and balances that come from.

- That's usually the case in New Jersey if we rebel whether at all.

Governors in the time we have remaining in this interview, I'd like to talk about this series, the "Governor's Perspective" series.

Now 10 years in the making on NJ PBS, we've talked about so many subjects over the years from affordable housing to Superfund sites and primary and general elections and the list goes on and on.

All with you and the other former governor's help in helping the people of New Jersey understand just how government works and what's it state.

I'd just like to ask you your thoughts very briefly, Governor Kane in your participation in this series, what does it mean to you?

- Well, first of all I enjoy doing it.

[Tom gasping] And if you've been around the track as we both been around the track, you know, you've learned some things and you like to pass that on to people and this is a wonderful way to do it because you ask correct to quick questions that are usually an issue of the day.

And we're able to say based on our experience and our experiences governor that this is the way we would handle it.

Sometimes agrees with the president governor, sometimes it doesn't.

but I think it's not a bad perspective to get out to people and thank you for doing it.

- Governor Corzine.

- I think Tom really hit the high points.

I think the experience that people have and sat in the chair and know that the difficulties of getting the legislature to align and make sure that the public understands what you're doing in a state that has a difficult media environment to be able to communicate to the state.

I think it's important that you get people who have had experience in trying to communicate to get out and discuss the issues.

And I think one of the great things that I've noticed, and we've done this a couple of times, you know, everything in politics doesn't need to be a food fight.

[Tom laughing] - [Kent] Right.

- It is actually reasonable to have differences of opinion but try to find out where those are and try to mealer 'em.

And if people see former governors doing that, I think that helps set a pattern that maybe others will-- - Well, I just want to say, it's been my pleasure and you have always shown respect for the public process and people have learned from that.

And we all appreciate your participation.

Thank you, Governor Kean, governor Corzine and now for our audience, a look back.

[upbeat guitar music] - There's only one that everybody agrees on, early childhood education.

All the education researchers, so on now for the last 20 years, that can improve the outcome.

And nobody disagrees so shame on us for not doing it.

- One of the things that of course we look at and have been looking at is when the public funds particular research, they should be able to see it.

- It's a legislative issue, legislative respond to it.

By creating this agency that's supposed to actually implement the system that they put in place.

The agency has not worked very well.

- In the polling data, all of New Jersey almost says "we have no problem with that" because almost all of them aren't millionaires.

So it's an interesting dynamic here.

- A a consequences I think the values that Governor Murphy has expressed through that budget, all budgets do express priorities and values, is designed to try to meet those needs.

- How concerned are you?

How concerned should we be?

- They should be petty, disorderly person's violations.

They should not be criminal offenses, I mean, you don't want to tie up courts for this kind of issue if you are not going to legalize.

- Atlantic City has great potential, great potential!

[upbeat guitar music] - [Announcer Woman] Funding for "Governor's Perspectives With Kent Manahan" has been provided by NJM Insurance Group, serving the insurance needs of residents and businesses for more than 100 years.

Seton Hall University, Seton Hall School of Law and by Connell Foley LLP.

[upbeat guitar music]