- [Announcer] Funding for "Governors' Perspectives" with Kent Manahan is made possible by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, committed to helping Americans lead healthier lives and get the care they need.

Additional funding provided by Seton Hall University, Seton Hall School of Law, and by Connell Foley LLP.

[dynamic music] [dynamic music continues] - [Kent] Donald Trump secured the Republican Party nomination for president months ago.

A strong indication, according to many political observers, of a deep divide in the party, pitting some lifelong Republicans against Trump's MAGA faction.

- It's gonna be up to voters to decide whether Trump is unfit, but he is certainly wrong, and he's wrong for this time.

- I said in February of 2021, shortly after the attack on the Capitol, that I would support President Trump if he were the nominee of our party, and he obviously is gonna be the nominee of our party.

- But now, in at least one new poll, Donald Trump is leading President Biden in five key battleground states.

The GOP has historically stood for a strong national defense, less government regulation and reduced taxes as a means of stimulating the economy.

There have been 19 Republican presidents in the United States since the party was founded in 1854.

Abraham Lincoln was the first in 1861.

Now former President Trump, who still contends the 2020 election was stolen, claims MAGA represents 96% plus of today's Republican Party.

So is it fair to say the Republican Party is the party of Lincoln, the party of Eisenhower, the party of Reagan, and now going forward, solidly, the party of Trump?

And with us now to talk about the future of the Republican Party, former New Jersey governors, Tom Kane and Christie Whitman.

Governors, welcome back to the program.

Good to have you here.

- Always good to be with you.

- We have invited you here because you are two experienced and respected leaders in the Republican Party, even to today.

Both of you served two terms as governor, you were elected and reelected in a very Democratic state.

Each of you, upon leaving office, were given presidential appointments in the George W. Bush administration.

And both of your families are steeped in the Republican Party, going back decades, even generations.

Governor Kane, to begin, we are now at a new point in our history, a former president is on trial in New York.

In fact, Donald Trump is charged in four indictments, facing 91 felony counts.

In your opinion, Governor, how is this impacting the Republican Party at this point with an election in November?

- I don't think the trial is impacting it at all.

[Tom laughing] Trump is a tremendous impact in and of himself, and I think he's a phenomenon that I think our grandchildren are gonna be studying, Donald Trump.

I mean, he did a rally the other day, he attracted almost 100,000 people.

Now, our greatest presidents, the most popular, Eisenhower couldn't do that, Kennedy couldn't do that, Roosevelt couldn't do that.

Nobody could do it.

So he is a particular phenomenon, and because of the kinda people he's been able to attract, because he's changed the party in many ways, 'cause he's actually added to the people who are interested in being Republicans, as well as subtracting some, [laughing] he's gonna be studied in history.

- So he, the person, though, you think can get over all of this, 91 felony counts for indictment?

- Well, look, people in the United States don't vote for people for or against sex crimes.

If they did, they wouldn't have reelected Bill Clinton.

- Of course, this is a case of Donald Trump being charged with falsifying business records in order to pay off a porn star, and that's what the trial is about.

- Listen, as far as people are concerned, it's Stormy Daniels in a sex charge.

Much more serious, I think, is the kinda charge that's been going on in Georgia, but I don't think that's gonna get to the courts before the election.

But this, no, this is a charge that most lawyers I know don't think would've been brought to-- - The falsifying business records in order to pay for a porn star?

- It's a misdemeanor, but that's not the point.

The point is people think it's a sex trial and people in this country are not gonna vote on that issue.

- Governor Whitman, of course, November's election is a presidential election, but it's also House leaders, Republicans are running, Democrats are running, senators are running, there are gubernatorial races across the country, and of course, state and local officials are running.

How is all of Trump's troubles landing on these elections, do you think?

- Well, it varies, it varies by state and it varies by district as to what kind of impact.

If you notice now, most of the candidates, Republican candidates running are not talking about Trump that much.

They're trying to put a little distance between themselves, just waiting to see.

And I would agree with Governor Kane that this particular trial in New York is not the one that is going to impact the election.

Although there are certainly Republicans who have said that they wouldn't vote for him if he were convicted of a crime.

Whether they'll judge this the kinda crime that puts them over the edge or not, I don't know.

But as you said, what's happening in Georgia, Florida, are far more important and far more troubling.

But they will not happen because these judges are slow walking them, and Trump has the kind of lawyers who can throw every kind of everything out there to try to slow these down.

And they're having an effect, so it won't happen until after the election, and that's very troubling to me.

But it's not the Republicans, the self-identified Republicans are part of a cult now.

I would argue there really isn't a Republican Party.

- You call the party a cult now?

- [Christie] Yes.

- And based on what, Governor?

- Because they didn't even adopt a platform at the last convention.

[audience cheering] It's kind of whatever Donald Trump says they should be pursuing, said they should believe in, that's where they go.

I mean, look at what happened when you had a bipartisan bill on the Hill that had been, I mean, it had significant Republican input and it was definitely bipartisan, and Donald Trump said, "Don't do it because I want it for the election," and all the Republicans walked away from it.

And that, to me, is just unconscionable because it's a real issue, it's an important issue, and people are being hurt by ignoring it.

I mean, both parties do this, don't get me wrong on that.

It happened during the Bush administration, too.

- Well, Governor, the Republican Party, would you say it's in deep trouble?

Is this a new phase, a passing phase, or a totally transitional phase in the party?

- Answer is, we don't know yet.

No question it's transformed the Republican Party in many, many ways.

- In what ways, could you be specific in a couple?

- Well, it's made it into a party that whose touchstone is Donald Trump's views, and Donald Trump's views are different.

- More like a cult, as Governor Whitman says?

- I wouldn't call it a cult, but it's certainly following his point of view.

And whether it's lasting or not, I don't know.

He can only run this time, [laughing] he's never gonna be running again.

He doesn't seem to have any obvious successor, there's nobody who's got that kind of magnetism that can-- - I think he's planning on staying for a little longer than four years.

- Well, that is a question, a legitimate question Would Donald Trump take the results of the election and live by them?

He's still claiming that the past election was a fraud.

- Right, and he's already said, he's not gonna commit to agreeing with the outcome of the election.

I mean, it's, "If I don't win, I'm gonna fight," and we're gonna see another January 6th, we're gonna see that kind of violence happen.

His supporters are, one of the reasons I say, "Cult," besides the fact that they only do what he and take the issues that he says they should take, they are fanatic on their support of him and his saying that the election was stolen.

That's what led to January 6th, we all know that.

People taking over our Capitol, trying to overturn an election and calling for hanging Mike Pence.

It's just-- - You're concerned that that would- - I'm very concerned.

- possibly happen again.

- Either way.

- Governor, Governor Kane, the former president has said that he doesn't want moderate Republicans in the party.

In fact, he wants them out.

I'm wondering your thoughts about that, as a moderate Republican, what has followed you throughout your time in the Republican Party.

You have a son now running in the 7th congressional district in New Jersey, running for reelection.

Donald Trump doesn't want moderate Republicans in the party.

What's your reaction to that?

- Well, look, we want a Republican Party, everybody.

[Tom laughing] I mean, the more people we can get to join the party and-- - The national party usually works for more parties- - That's right, that's right.

- more people in the party- - Yeah, yeah, we want more people.

- a big tent.

- I think the question is, whether Donald Trump and Trumpism, or whatever you wanna call it, is gonna last in the party beyond Donald Trump, 'cause at the very most, he's got four years, maybe not, maybe nothing.

- If he does though, could a lot of damage be done- - Oh, you can do a lot of damage-- - and to our democracy?

- You can do a lot of damage in four years, no question about it and-- - He's already done it.

- Yeah, and those of us who are environmentalists and so on are [laughing] very concerned about that.

But I think when you talk about the Republican Party in the long term, that's gonna be a question whether or not when he goes, 'cause if there was somebody behind him, there isn't.

- Governor-- - There's nobody gonna attract his group.

- Governor Whitman, you are still a card-carrying Republican, as you call yourself, but you're working outside of the party to establish a third party.

Tell us about that effort, the Forward Party it's called.

- Forward Party, well, it's an amalgam actually of three entities, two of which we're trying to work within the Republican Party to center it again, to get it so that it was accepting everybody.

And the other one was Andrew Yang's Forward Party.

And he also was trying to work within the current system to bring-- - A Democrat who ran for president.

- A Democrat, for president, and then mayor of New York.

Trying to get the system back in balance.

And we've all decided, this isn't working within the current structure, because the parties have it just the way they want it.

And so Forward is an amalgam of those three.

We're focused on protecting democracy, electing candidates at the state and local level, as well as we'll have four or five congressional candidates that we'll support and a couple of senatorial candidates.

But we're not running and we never were running in the presidential, we're building a party.

I mean, I'm somebody, as you said, whose roots in the Republican Party go back a long way, and I always thought two parties is what works in this country, but having seen the fact that in any given election, 70% of those being elected have no contest, there's only one person running for that office, that's just wrong.

Every candidate should, every person should have an opportunity to vote for more than one candidate.

And we've gotta break that up.

And the way you do that is by picking people at the state and local level who agree to uphold the Constitution, respect the rule of law, work to bring people into their entity, and focus on the issues that are important to their state or to their candidacy, what they think their people want, not what a party in Washington tells them to think.

- What do you think of that idea, Governor?

Are third parties a good idea?

- Well, I'm sympathetic to it, I really am, because what Governor's trying to do is one of the things this country needs.

Look, the biggest problem we have in this country right now, I think, is we're not talking to each other anymore.

I mean, when I was in the legislature, we'd fight all day, and then we'd go and have dinner afterwards.

And my whole political career was on important issues that two parties could get together and work with one another.

Now it's not just the two parties, their anger all over the place.

There are families that are broken up over government, over politics.

And that's not this country, and we wouldn't be here as a country if it wasn't for a compromise, interestingly enough, called the New Jersey Compromise.

[Tom and Christie laughing] Where the two sides of big states and small states who were fighting each other and were gonna break up the union.

Well, there wasn't a union yet, but they weren't gonna form one.

The New Jersey Compromise got people together.

And then we were able to form a union and write a constitution and Bill of Rights and everything else.

So this is the problem I have with the far right and the MAGA Republicans, and the problem with the far left, the Democrats, is that they exacerbate this problem.

[laughing] And we've got to find a way again to talk to each other, to respect each other, and move forward.

- Governor Whitman, why, in your opinion, aren't Republicans tired of Donald Trump?

Why aren't they bored with this whole situation, name calling, the things that he's doing in this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America?

He lost in 2020, the congressional election results in 2022, why aren't people moving on from Donald Trump?

- I think a lot of those who are in office today feel that way.

They would love to move on.

They don't like what they're seeing, they're uncomfortable with it, but they are so worried about what his supporters will do.

And we've seen it where you have election workers who are leaving their jobs, the people who administer elections saying, "I can't put my family through this, we're getting physical threats," it's not just emotional pressure that's being put on them.

it's real, and it's very scary for a lot of people.

And those voters, the Trump voters, the MAGA voters come out to vote, that's the other part of the equation.

If you wanna win, if you wanna be in office, and that's the constant, you can make change from within, so do you compromise a little bit and look the other way of some things you don't like because you wanna keep your job so that you can continue to play on some of the bigger issues?

But they're being more and more constrained as to what they can do and what they can speak about, and they're afraid of losing their jobs.

But the interesting thing is, I co-chair something called States United Democracy Center, and that's nonpartisan totally.

And what we do is, again, it's protecting democracy, working with states and working with the governors, lieutenant governors, the secretaries of states, the attorneys general, to help them push back against some of the illegal stuff that's going on and the pressure that's going on.

But we found in the last election cycle that when you tell people, and all we do is, and we have a site now that does the same thing, you can put in your zip code and find out within your congressional district and within 50 miles, all the candidates who were MAGA who were still contesting the 2020 election.

We found when we put that out in the last election cycle, that those people who were identified as still being election objectioners went down in popularity by almost 20% and their polls went down over 9%.

So that's a significant, I mean, 6% to 9% of loss at the polls.

That's why you saw so many of them defeated.

- I have to ask your thoughts, and Governor Kane, I'll ask you first about the National Republican Party helping to support Donald Trump's efforts in his legal defense.

What is your thought on that, and what it's taking away from other candidates across the country that are running on the GOP label?

[Christie laughing] - Well, the money, [laughing] the money that's coming into the party, some of it's going to his defense 'cause it's been given to him.

[laughing] If you'd given it to other candidates, given it another way, it wouldn't go to him.

But it's going to him because he has enormous legal problems, and that's become unfortunately part of the campaign.

So the money is going there.

Now, he is an enormous fundraiser.

He does bring a lot of money in.

- But he's lagging way behind the Democratic Party.

- So far, but if he continues to have rallies like 100,000 people, [laughing] he's gotta catch up.

- Your thoughts on that, Governor?

Well, it's not the role of the National Committee and didn't use to be.

The National Committee was there to support all the candidates.

And when this money goes straight to Donald Trump's defense, it's not doing the job that it's supposed to do to support candidates throughout the country.

- In fact, in key states right now, there are concerns among Republicans that campaign organizations are not being set up in those key states.

That's certainly a concern, I would think, for the party- - Right, oh, absolutely, I mean, for the party.

- for the national party and the candidates running.

- The national party is run by his daughter-in-law and daughter, I guess, or one daughter, or somebody else, a family member is there.

And no, that's just symptomatic of the control he has of the apparatus of the party.

- I don't know whether there's any precedent for this.

- No.

- I don't know whether money went to Bill Clinton's defense- - No, I don't think it did.

- Richard Nixon- - No, never did, never did.

- other presidents that have been in trouble, I don't know of it.

- Never did.

- Well, fast-forward to the Republican National Convention this summer.

What can we expect from the convention?

Will there be a policy statement?

Will there be a platform?

As you indicated, Governor Whitman, earlier in our conversation, in the last campaign, there was not a party platform.

In fact, one of the stops along the way for the president was at the White House.

He held several events, but one of them was at the White House, the People's House.

Now, I've covered political conventions for a long time and I've never seen anything like that.

Does that concern you and could that happen again?

- Yeah, I think, [sighing] yes, it concerns me.

I think there's no question about it.

Although I don't mind, being not much for a party platform.

I never liked the party platform anyway.

- Nobody paid any attention to it, but at least it was there as a symbol of this is what you can-- - It was sort of a symbol, but a lot of it was stuff you and I disagreed with.

[laughing] - Well, yeah, yes, but-- - But isn't it something that the public can understand about what the party and the candidate represent?

- Well, it gives them a sense that there is a core there.

- A cohesiveness to the-- - I mean, it's a cohesiveness to it, and that's that's what's gone now.

- Maybe.

- I mean, I don't hate Donald Trump, I just deplore what he is doing to our country, to our democracy, because to him, the Constitution's an inconvenient document.

He said it, I mean, he said he could shoot somebody in the middle of 5th Avenue and be fine.

And he could, I mean, the scary part is, he could.

- That's why he's such a remarkable figure in history.

I mean, as a historian, I can't wait to read what people write about him 50 years.

[Christie laughing] He's gonna be a chapter in the books- - Oh yes, for the wrong-- - because in our whole 250 years of democracy, there's never been anybody even approaching the kind of political figure that Donald Trump is.

- What about Matthew Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene, what is their future in the party?

I mean, they're certainly identified as extremists.

And you said, Governor, that there will, no one to follow Donald Trump, but could they be those people in the future?

- I think if they do, they'll go down the drain.

And they can't do what Trump does.

[laughing] I mean- - No.

- Marjorie Taylor Greene gives a speech, 10 people show up maybe, I don't know, [laughing] maybe more, but not many more.

And they're inconsequential, or will be, I think, in the long run.

Every party's had a far left and a far right, and now, unfortunately, there's more far right and more far left than there's ever been before.

But I think hopefully that'll start to go away and we'll see these figures really marginalized the way they should be.

- What do you think Americans are looking for in this presidential election, Americans?

- I don't think they're thinking that way particularly, because the worry about our democracy and our rule of law and the Constitution are not high up.

What people are worried about is what they're paying for gas.

- Today-- - and what they're paying for at the grocery store, and that they have to work two jobs.

And that's one of the reasons that people think that Donald Trump did a better job than Joe Biden is doing, because the economy, from their point of view, these prices were lower.

Now, there are a lot of factors that have influenced it that have nothing to do with Biden's policies, but so, yes, he gets the blame.

- Yeah, that's true.

- There's no question.

- But it's a terrible election for people.

I mean, Joe Biden is passed his due date, and everybody knows it.

And so-- - Is that because of his age?

- Yeah, I mean-- - And Donald Trump's age as well.

- [Tom] Yeah, but Donald Trump seems to promote a vigor that the president just doesn't.

- [Christie] Right, no.

- But if you think you're a young person voting for the first time and you're asked to make a choice between two people, neither of whom you're enthusiastic about at all.

And you're voting for somebody, not your parents' age, your grandparents' age, two candidates.

And [laughing] I think that's one of the great problems now.

I mean, people are gonna go into that voting booth.

When you and I first voted, at least I was very enthusiastic- - Yes.

- excited about who I was voting for, very excited.

And didn't mind the other party's candidate either, if they won, they were pretty good people.

Just think of the discouragement.

I talk about democracy problems, that's a huge democracy problem, not having any enthusiasm for the head of the ticket, and neither party has that much enthusiasm today.

- That's one of the things we're trying to address through Forward by bringing candidates out at the state and local level to get people to the polls, 'cause I think a lot of these people, particularly the young people who have no enthusiasm for their choices at the top, will just stay home, will not bother to vote.

But if they see somebody running for library commission, or mayor, or assembly, that they like, that they think, "Okay, this is a decent person, balanced person, has the values that I respect, they'll come and vote for them," and then history has shown us that they tend to stay on the ballot and go up looking for similar candidates on the way up.

So bringing more of them to the polls, 'cause no matter what happens in this election, there are gonna be a lot of lawsuits.

And we need people in the State Attorney General Office and the Secretary of State's Office and the Local Commissioner's Offices who are gonna be responsible for holding the line, no matter who wins.

We need the people who will do that, who will respect the rule of law and uphold the election results.

- Governors, I've asked you about Donald Trump on a national level and his reputation, you both knew him in Atlantic City during the 1980s and '90s.

What was his reputation then?

- Well, a hard-nosed businessman and a gambler.

[laughing] He had a football team that he sponsored in the state.

He called me and said he wanted to bring a baseball team in.

I encouraged him on all that, a baseball team in New Jersey would've been great.

- Oh, he put more small-business people out of business in Atlantic City than anybody.

After putting a lot of pressure on the electricians and plumbers, his lawyers called them into a meeting and said, "This is what we're gonna give you," whether it was 25 cents or 50 cents on the dollar, I don't know what it was.

And they said, "You can sue us and you'll win, but you'll be broke by the time that happens."

- Looking ahead, your thoughts, will this Republican Party become, as it's been known, the party of Lincoln, the party of Eisenhower, the party of Reagan, and going forward, the party of Donald Trump?

- I don't believe so.

I certainly hope not.

[Christie laughing] But who knows?

I think the idea he has no successor, or no charismatic follower, the idea that once he's gone, people are gonna be looking for direction elsewhere.

I don't think so.

I mean, it'll take a while, but some of these people who've been elected are gonna try to follow him, but I think there'll be new people and new views and new points of view.

And I think some of the people who are traditional Republicans will reemerge, at least I hope they will.

- Governor?

- Well, I would hope they would as well.

I'm just worried.

I'm glad you're [laughing] so sure that he's only got four years.

I can see him getting into office.

I mean, he's already talked about weaponizing the Justice Department to go after people who have criticized him.

And as you point out, he doesn't want centrists or moderates in the party.

I just worry that he's gonna refuse to leave office.

[audience clapping] I mean, certainly the people he admires and he talks about, Putin, they're all the strong men.

That's what he wants to be, he wants to be in total control.

And we may have to take him out with a bulldozer.

- And he does tell members of Congress what he wants done, and they seem to abide by it.

- And they do it, yeah.

- Well, Governors, I appreciate your time.

And you've helped us understand more about the past, and putting the present and the future in perspective.

Thank you very much.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- [Announcer] Funding for "Governors' Perspectives" with Kent Manahan is made possible by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, committed to helping Americans lead healthier lives and get the care they need, Seton Hall University, Seton Hall School of Law, and by Connell Foley LLP.

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