>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS GEARING UP IN THE RACE FOR GOVERNOR, NEW POLLING SHOWS MARK RONCHETTI TIGHTENING THE GAP AS HE TRIES TO GAIN GROUND ON GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM.

PLUS -- >> Pasqual: PROTECTING SOME OF THESE SPECIAL PLACES REQUIRES HARD WORK, COMMITMENT, THE DEDICATION OF RESOURCES, BUT ALSO SACRIFICE ON OUR OWN PERSONAL PART.

>> Gene: FIGHTING TO PROTECT SACRED LAND.

HEAR FROM A TRIBAL LEADER WORKING TO STOP HUNDREDS OF DRILLING PERMITS NEAR CHACO CANYON.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

A NEW STUDY SHOWS U.S. MILITARY'S ECONOMIC IMPACT IN NEW MEXICO MAY BE LARGER THAN WE EVER REALIZED.

AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HOUR WE ARE GOING TO DIVE INTO THOSE NUMBERS AND TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL COSTS THAT WEREN'T CONSIDERED IN THIS REPORT.

U.S. MILITARY IS STAYING OUT OF A MAJOR CONFLICT IN UKRAINE, AT LEAST FOR NOW.

COMING UP LATER IN THE SHOW, SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO SPEAKS WITH A FILMMAKER AND JOURNALIST WITH TIES TO NEW MEXICO WHO SPENT MONTHS ON THE FRONT LINES OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

HE TELLS US WHY HE THINKS THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SO EFFECTIVE IN HOLDING OFF RUSSIAN ADVANCES.

BUT FIRST, WE ARE STAYING HERE IN NEW MEXICO WHERE THE RACE FOR GOVERNOR HAS ENTERED A NEW PHASE.

GOP NOMINEE MARK RONCHETTI AND DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENT MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM FACED OFF FOR THEIR FIRST DEBATE LAST WEEK ON KOB-TV AND THERE HAVE BEEN NEW DEVELOPMENTS SINCE.

LET'S GET RIGHT TO THE LINE.

WELCOME TO THE LINE OPINION PANELISTS THIS WEEK.

WE ARE HAPPY TO HAVE FORMER STATE SENATOR DIANE SNYDER.

ATTORNEY LAURA SANCHEZ AND EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR AT THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN, INEZ RUSSELL GOMEZ WITH US TODAY.

WE ARE STARTING THINGS OFF WITH THE GOVERNOR'S RACE WHICH HAS HIT ANOTHER GEAR AFTER A DEBATE ON KOB LAST WEEK, KOB-TV.

WE WILL GET INTO SPECIFICS FROM THAT DEBATE IN A MINUTE BUT WE WANT TO GET STRAIGHT SOME OF THE NEW POLLING DATA IN THIS CONTEST THAT INFORMS ALL OF THIS.

IT COMES FROM THE NATIONAL POLLING FIRM CYGNAL, C-Y-G-N-A-L, IF YOU HAVE NOT HEARD OF THAT, WHICH COLLECTED INFORMATION FROM SEPTEMBER 27 TO THE 29TH.

NOW THAT POLL SHOWS GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM WITH JUST A TWO POINT LEAD OVER REPUBLICAN NOMINEE MARK RONCHETTI, 46 TO 44%.

NOW, OVERALL THE WEBSITE 538 POLLING, YOU MIGHT BE FAMILIAR WITH, NOW, THEY HAVE THE GOVERNOR WITH A SIX POINT LEAD OVER MR. RONCHETTI.

AND DIANE SNYDER LET ME START WITH YOU.

ARE YOU SURPRISED TO SEE THE RACE THIS CLOSE AND I SHOULD ADD CYGNAL IDENTIFIES ITSELF AS A GOP LEANING POLLING FIRM SO I JUST WANT TO GET THAT OUT THERE TOO.

ARE YOU SURPRISED THIS RACE IS SO CLOSE FROM EITHER POLL?

>> Diane: NO, I LOOKED AT IT AND I EVALUATED IT BASED ON PRIOR YEARS AND PRIOR COMPETITORS.

FOR ONE THING, THE GOVERNOR HAS ALWAYS BEEN -- PART OF HER APPEAL HAS BEEN HER ENERGY AND HER ENTHUSIASM AND HER GO GET IT KIND OF ATTITUDE AND I FELT LIKE THAT WE COULDN'T SEE THAT AT THIS LAST DEBATE.

JUST A FEELING, AN ATTITUDE, WHEREAS MR. RONCHETTI WAS VERY MUCH.

MARK IS SMART, WELL EDUCATED, HE IS ARTICULATE AND HE HAS A PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING OF THE ISSUES OF WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR.

THE THING THAT IMPACTS THEM.

NOT WHAT A NATIONAL POLL TELLS US IMPACTS THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

SO, I THINK -- I THINK HE DID VERY WELL AT THE DEBATE AND THE ONE THING I CAME AWAY WITH IS THE GOVERNOR HAD TO KEEP GOING BACK TO THE ISSUE OF ABORTION TO COME -- TO HAVE SOMETHING CONCRETE AGAINST MR. RONCHETTI.

AND I JUST DON'T THINK -- I THINK IT IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE.

I THINK IT CERTAINLY PLAYS A PART IN WHAT IS HAPPENING BUT WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO THE GROCERY STORE AND YOU CAN'T BUY HALF THE THINGS, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU DID BUY BEFORE, YOUR CHILDREN CAN'T HAVE NEW SHOES, THEY ARE HAVING TO WEAR THE OLD ONES, IT IS THE ECONOMY AND IMPACT.

FAMILIES ARE FEELING THAT PERSONALLY MORE THAN THE ABORTION ISSUE, UNLESS -- I DON'T KNOW BUT I JUST FEEL LIKE THAT MAKES UP THE DIFFERENCES.

MARK TALKED ABOUT CRIME AND CRIME IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

AND IF YOU NOTICED, THE GOVERNOR HAS NOW ASKED THE FBI FOR 50 MORE AGENTS INTO THE STATE.

THEY SAID NO.

SO, NOW SHE HAS GONE TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO TRY TO GET IT.

SO, IT CLEARLY REINFORCES MR. RONCHETTI'S CONTENTION THAT WE ARE IN DIRE STRAITS SO FAR AS CRIME.

WHEN IN THAT SENSE, THAT IS KIND OF WHERE IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME THAT HE IS CREEPING UP.

THERE IS STILL, QUITE TRUTHFULLY, IT IS A LOT OF DAYS UNTIL ELECTION DAY.

SO, THAT MAY HAVE BEEN JUST A BUMP FROM THE DEBATE AND WE'LL SEE WHAT THE OTHER ONE BRINGS.

>> Gene: BY THE WAY, EARLY VOTING STARTS OCTOBER 11 RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.

INEZ, WATCHING THAT DEBATE ON KOB, MR. RONCHETTI WANTED TO GO AFTER THE GOVERNOR RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE.

HER IS MY POINT.

HE REPEATEDLY CALLED HER, QUOTE, OUT OF TOUCH, END QUOTE, WITH NEW MEXICO CITIZENS.

THAT IS AN OLD CHARGE THAT YOU SEE ON THE NATIONAL SCALE AND I AM CURIOUS YOUR RESPONSE TO HOW EFFECTIVE YOU THINK THAT ANGLE OF ATTACK IS.

>> Inez: I THINK IT IS HARD TO SAY SOMEONE IS OUT OF TOUCH WHEN YOU HAVE A BILLION DOLLAR HOUSE THAT YOU BUILT ON TELEVISION IN ANGEL FIRE.

I DON'T HAVE A SECOND HOUSE IN ANGEL FIRE THAT I HAD A TV SHOW TO FURNISH AND BUILD AND THE GOVERNOR LIVED IN THE NORTH VALLEY IN ALBUQUERQUE IN JUST A NORMAL HOUSE AND RUNS ON THE DITCHES AND NOW OF COURSE HAS THE MANSION IN SANTA FE.

SHE'S A MOM.

SHE HAS BEEN A WIDOW.

NOW SHE IS REMARRIED.

SHE HAS GRANDKIDS, SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I WAS THINKING ABOUT WHAT IT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE TO BE GOVERNOR DURING THE PANDEMIC AND WATCH YOUR MOTHER DYING AND NOT BE ABLE TO GO SEE HER BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU DID.

THAT IS TO ME WHAT HAPPENED TO MOST OF US IS WE COULDN'T SEE OR FAMILY.

WE DEALT WITH COVID AND WE WENT ABOUT OUR LIVES.

I WOULD GO BACK TO THE DEBATE, THOUGH, AND I WONDER, YOU KNOW, FIRST OF ALL, THE POLLING AVERAGE STILL 4 TO 6 POINTS.

OBVIOUSLY IT IS GOING TO BE CLOSE BECAUSE NEW MEXICO IS A CLOSELY DIVIDED STATE.

I WONDER IF A DEBATE IS AS IMPORTANT AS WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK WHERE YOU HAVE THE MARK RONCHETTI MEMES WHERE SOME GENIUS PERSON DECIDED THAT MARK RONCHETTI WOULD BE BAD FOR NEW MEXICO.

THAT IS THE BASIC PREMISE AND THEY TAKE THINGS LIKE MARK RONCHETTI PUTS KETCHUP ON HIS TAMALES.

MARK RONCHETTI SAYS FRIED BREAD INSTEAD OF FRY BREAD AND THEN IT SAYS BAD FOR FEAST DAY, BAD FOR NEW MEXICO.

THERE ARE DOZENS OF THESE AND I THINK BACK TO HOW MANY PEOPLE WATCH A DEBATE HOW MANY PEOPLE READ THE STORY AND THE PAPER.

IN THIS ONE THERE WAS NO SINGULAR MOMENT WHERE WE SAW, OH MY GOSH, HE SCREWED UP OR HE WAS BRILLIANT IN THAT POINT OR HE WAS TERRIBLE IN THAT POINT.

THEY DID THEIR JOBS SO I WONDER IF A DEBATE ALMOST EVEN MATTERS, IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN KNOCKOUT PUNCH.

MEANWHILE UNDERGROUND IN A PLACE WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE AND OTHER VOTERS WHO MAYBE DON'T GO TO THE POLLS AS FREQUENTLY, PLACES LIKE TWITTER AND FACEBOOK, YOU HAVE MARK RONCHETTI SKIS IN JEANS, BAD FOR SKIING, BAD FOR NEW MEXICO.

I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

I HAVE NO CLUE BUT I THINK IT IS REALLY INTERESTING WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE PARTS OF THE CAMPAIGN WE DON'T SEE ON TELEVISION.

>> Gene: I KNOW IT IS CLOGGING MY FEED AND I AM LIKE SLEEPING PEOPLE FOR 30 DAYS LEFT AND RIGHT TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THOSE RONCHETTI MEMES.

>> Inez: THEY ARE FUNNY.

THE NICE THING IS THEY ARE NOT THAT MEAN, EITHER.

THEY ARE JUST THERE BUT A LOT OF THEM ARE NOT GOOD.

>> Gene: IT WOULD BE BETTER IF THEY WERE FUNNY.

THAT WOULD BE A LOT BETTER.

LAURA, INTERESTINGLY, I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING SENATOR MENTIONED AND THAT IS THE CONSTANT USE OF THE ABORTION ISSUE FOR THE GOVERNOR.

NOW, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, MR. RONCHETTI HAS BEEN FORCED TO SPEND TV MONEY UP TO THIS DAY ON THE ABORTION ISSUE AND ALMOST SEEMS LIKE SHE HAS HIM SQUEEZED IN A CORNER ON THIS AND CAN'T GET OTHER THINGS OUT THERE TO TALK ABOUT CRIME AND GENERALITIES.

IS SHE ON THE RIGHT TRACK HERE, JUST HAMMERING ABORTION?

ARE THEY BOTH ON TO SOMETHING HERE?

>> Laura: I THINK THE ABORTION ISSUE IS SO EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE STATE THAT IT WOULD BE A MISSTEP FOR HER NOT TO HIGHLIGHT THE DIFFERENCES THERE.

I THINK THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE.

I THINK SHE HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR ON HER POSITION ON ABORTION.

SHE WORKED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE LAW THAT WAS ON THE BOOKS WAS REPEALED PREVIOUSLY IN ANTICIPATION OF POTENTIALLY HAVING A SITUATION WHERE THE SUPREME COURT WOULD OVERTURN ROE V WADE.

SO THAT IS A BIG ISSUE FOR HER, FOR HER BASE.

AND FOR A LOT OF WOMEN IN THE STATE.

AND PEOPLE, NOT JUST WOMEN BUT CERTAINLY IT WOULD BE A MISSTEP FOR HER NOT TO KEEP GOING BACK TO IT.

BUT THE INTERESTING THING, THE OBSERVATION THE SENATOR HAD ABOUT HER CONTINUING TO GO BACK TO THAT ISSUE, STRIKES ME, WELL, I MEAN, HE DOESN'T HAVE A RECORD SO IT IS NOT LIKE SHE CAN GO BACK TO ISSUES WHERE HE HAS VOTED OR HAD ANY SORT OF POSITION WHERE HE WAS ELECTED AND HAD -- WORKED ON ANY POLICY ISSUE.

IT IS ALSO KIND OF TRICKY BECAUSE SHE NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO SORT OF, IN SOME WAYS, READ THE TEA LEAVES ABOUT WHERE HE MIGHT BE GOING ON SOME ISSUES AND ABORTION IS SUCH A CLEAR ONE WHERE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE THERE.

HE HAS COME OUT WITH OTHER ADS RECENTLY ABOUT EDUCATION AND TALKING ABOUT HOW HE HAS A PLAN FOR EDUCATION.

THAT IS STILL AN IMPORTANT ISSUE.

EDUCATION, THE ECONOMY.

YOU KNOW.

THE ABORTION ISSUE, BUT CERTAINLY I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE SOME DIFFERENCES THERE AND I AM INTERESTED TO KNOW WHETHER IN THE NEXT DEBATES WE'LL HAVE A LITTLE MORE FLUSHING OUT OF THOSE KINDS OF ISSUES AS WELL, THE MORE, YOU KNOW, THE STUFF THAT THE AVERAGE NEW MEXICAN WOULD BE IMPACTED BY.

CERTAINLY EDUCATION WOULD BE PART OF THAT.

>> Gene: NO DOUBT.

SENATOR, WE JUST HAVE A QUICK MINUTE HERE BUT I HAVE GOT TO GET YOUR OPINION ON HOW THE GOVERNOR SOMEHOW WAS TRYING TO HANG OR NOT HANG BUT TIE MR. RONCHETTI TO FORMER GOVERNOR SUSANA MARTINEZ.

I MEAN THAT WAS SO OUT OF THE BLUE, I WASN'T QUITE READY FOR THAT.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT AS A TACTIC?

>> Diane: I WAS QUITE SURPRISED BECAUSE I AM GOING IN THE WORLD I LIVE IN THAT HAS NOT BEEN A MAJOR CONNECTION.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE SEEN SUSANA GOING OUT AND SUPPORTING -- SHE SUPPORTS MARK, I ASSUME, BUT SHE HASN'T BEEN VISIBLE.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS ALL OF US WHO ARE TALKING RIGHT NOW IS WE HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE IN SOME THINGS THAN THE AVERAGE VOTER DOES SO THAT MIGHT WORK WELL WITH THE AVERAGE VOTER, IF THEY DISLIKE SUSANA.

IF THEY LIKE HER -- SO IT IS A 50/50 CHANCE ONe WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO GAIN.

I DON'T SEE HER GAINING ANY REPUBLICAN VOTES OR INDEPENDENT VOTES BY TYING HIM TO SUSANA MARTINEZ, SO -- >> Gene: INEZ, CAN YOU FINISH THIS SEGMENT WITH THAT SAME QUESTION?

AN EFFECTIVE TACTIC TRYING TO BRING IN FORMER GOVERNOR SUSANA MARTINEZ INTO THIS?

>> Inez: YOU KNOW, I AGREE WITH THE SENATOR.

WHO KNOWS WHAT PEOPLE WILL REACT TO BUT I WOULD SAY WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO BRING HER IN, SAY GOVERNOR SUSANA MARTINEZ, NOT YOUR MENTOR, BECAUSE THEY MAY NOT KNOW WHO YOUR MENTOR IS.

I THINK IT IS A TOTALLY FAIR COMPARISON BECAUSE JAY MCCLUSKEY IS THE ADVISER TO BOTH OF THEM AND A POLITICAL GURU GUY.

I THINK IF YOU'RE A PERSON WHOSE CHILD NEEDS MENTAL HEALTHCARE OR IF YOU NEEDED MENTAL HEALTHCARE, YOU WILL HAVE A REACTION TO THE NAME SUSANA MARTINEZ.

THE KEY TO TYING IT IS TO BRING BACK THE MISTAKES THAT PEOPLE FEEL WERE MADE IN THE MARTINEZ ADMINISTRATION.

WHICH WAS A COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF THE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH SYSTEM IN NEW MEXICO.

I THINK IF YOU TIE A CANDIDATE TO A PERSON WHO DID SOME THINGS THAT WERE NOT GOOD FOR THE STATE, THAT CAN WORK.

>> Gene: THANKS FOR OUR LINE OPINION PANEL ON THAT ONE.

WE'LL BE BACK HERE WITH THE GROUP IN LESS THAN 10 MINUTES TO TALK ABOUT A NEW REPORT DETAILING THE STAGGERING TURNOVER AMONG NEW MEXICO PUBLIC SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENTS AND THE IMPACT IT IS HAVING ON OUR CHILDREN'S EDUCATION.

>> Pasqual: FROM ROADS TO WELL PADS TO THE VISUAL LANDSCAPE, TO THE SOUND SCAPES THAT EXIST, TO THE MIGRATION ROUTES OF WILDLIFE, TO JUST THE ABILITY TO CONNECT WITH A SACRED LANDSCAPE AND ANCESTORS IN QUIETNESS AND PEACE AND SOLITUDE.

ALL OF THAT IS LOST WITH DEVELOPMENT.

>> Gene: WHEN YOU CAST YOUR BALLOT ON NOVEMBER 8, NEWLY DRAWN DISTRICT LINES WILL BE IN USE FOR THE FIRST TIME.

NOW, WE COVERED THAT REDISTRICTING PROCESS EXTENSIVELY FROM THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION THAT COLLECTED DATA AND INPUT TO CREATE RECOMMENDED BOUNDARIES, TO THE LEGISLATURE'S FINAL DECISION ON EACH REDRAWN MAP.

NOW, A NEW REPORT IS RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE INTENTIONS BEHIND THOSE FINAL DISTRICT LINES.

THIS WEEK NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND SAT DOWN WITH ONE OF THE CO-AUTHORS OF THAT REPORT TO FIND OUT HOW WE COULD MAKE THIS PROCESS MORE HONEST AND EFFECTIVE.

>> Gwyneth: PROFESSOR GABRIEL SANCHEZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Gwyneth: YOU WERE PART OF A TEAM THAT EVALUATED NEW MEXICO'S REDISTRICTING PROCESS.

IT IS A BIG LONG 59-PAGE REPORT.

WHAT IS THE MAJOR TAKEAWAY FOR YOU?

>> Gabriel: YEAH, LONG COMPREHENSIVE REPORT.

IF I HAD TO SAY ONE TAKE HOME MESSAGE IS WE HAD A MUCH BETTER PROCESS AND OUTCOMES WITH THE CRC IN PLACE THIS CYCLE, BUT BOTH THE PUBLIC AND EXPERTS I TALKED TO ARE READY TO GO TO THE NEXT STEP AND HAVE A TRULY INDEPENDENT COMMISSION WITH ACTUALLY BINDING MAP DECISIONS THAT DOESN'T HAVE TO RELY ON THE LEGISLATURE TO ACTUALLY IMPLEMENT THEM.

I THINK THAT IS THE BIG TAKE-HOME MESSAGE.

THAT IS WHAT EVERYBODY WANTED TO KNOW AND FORTUNATELY WE WERE ABLE TO FIND A PRETTY CONSENSUS TAKE ON THAT, AND I THINK THAT IS HELPFUL AS YOU THINK ABOUT THE NEXT CYCLE YEARS FROM NOW.

>> Gwyneth: YEAH, COMPARED TO SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST, I HAVE DONE A LOT OF REPORTING ON REDISTRICTING, YOU HAVE LOOKED AT THIS A LOT, THE NO.

1 THING THAT PEOPLE SAID TO ME, PEOPLE THAT HAD BEEN A PART OF IT, LAWMAKERS, DEMOGRAPHERS, SAID WAS THAT THE LEGISLATURE PURSUES AN INCUMBENT PROTECTION PLAN.

THEY DRAW DISTRICTS THAT THEY ARE GOING TO WIN NEXT TIME.

YOU KNOW.

NEW MEXICO STATE LAWMAKERS TEND TO PROTECT THEMSELVES AND YOU -- BUT THAT WAS ANECDOTAL.

YOU FOUND SOME EVIDENCE FOR IT.

>> Gabriel: YEAH, OBVIOUSLY THAT WAS ONE OF THE BIG RESEARCH QUESTIONS THAT WE STARTED THE REPORT WITH.

YOU KNOW, THE LINE YOU OFTEN HEAR IS, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE CONSTITUENTS THAT PICK THEIR LEGISLATORS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND, LEGISLATORS GETTING TO PICK WHO THEIR CONSTITUENTS ARE THROUGH THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS.

AND, YOU KNOW, A COUPLE DIFFERENT WAYS TO LOOK AT THAT.

ONE, IN THE SURVEY WE ASKED FOLKS ABOUT THEIR PERCEPTION OF HOW THAT WAS DONE.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE LEGISLATURE AND PARTICULARLY THE SENATE WASN'T RATED VERY WELL BY THE PUBLIC AND WE SURVEYED HOW HIGHLY LIKELY NEW MEXICO VOTERS.

SO, THESE ARE THE FOLKS PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO WHAT WAS GOING ON ON THE GROUND AND PROBABLY MORE IMPORTANTLY WE ACTUALLY HAD MAP ANALYSIS.

DR. DAVID COTTRELL WHO DID ALL THE MAP ANALYSIS FOR THE CRC ITSELF, LENT HIS EXPERTISE TO OUR CAUSE AND DID THAT FOR OUR EVALUATION REPORT.

AND ALTHOUGH THERE IS SOME POSITIVES WE CAN TALK ABOUT IN HIS MAP ANALYSIS, WHEN IT CAME TO LOOKING AT HIS MAP ANALYSIS, WHEN IT CAME TO LOOKING AT INCUMBENCY ADVANTAGE, HE FOUND THAT THERE WAS UNFORTUNATELY EVIDENCE THAT THERE WAS MORE PROTECTION OF INCUMBENTS THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE'S MAP AND MUCH MORE SO THAN THE CRC AND A BUNCH OF COMPUTER GENERATED ALGORITHM BASED MAPS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO TAKE POLITICS OUT OF THE EQUATION.

AT END OF THE DAY, YOU HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT THERE WAS PROTECTION OF INCUMBENCY IN THE REDISTRICTING CYCLE AND THAT CONFIRMS WHAT WE OFTEN HEAR ON THE GROUND ANECDOTALLY FROM FOLKS.

AND AS RESEARCHERS YOU TEST QUESTION.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS GOING TO BE, BUT WHEN IT IS IN LINE WITH WHAT THE EXPERTS ARE TELLING YOU THEY ARE SEEING ON THE GROUND, YOU KNOW YOU GOT SOMETHING THERE.

>> Gwyneth: HERE IS SOMETHING I FOUND SURPRISING.

YOU KNOW ONE THING A LOT OF PEOPLE PREDICTED WAS YOU HAVE GOT, YOU KNOW, DEMOCRATS IN CONTROL OF THE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID THEY ARE JUST GOING TO RUN THE SHOW HERE.

THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE THIS A COMPLETE POLITICAL GERRYMANDER AND ADVANTAGE THEMSELVES THE WHOLE WAY.

IN TERMS OF THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS, WHICH YOU GUYS DIDN'T LOOK AT, PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT LOOKS LIKE A DEMOCRATIC GERRYMANDER BUT DID YOU FIND THAT FOR THE LEGISLATURE?

>> Gabriel: NO, REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION AND IMPORTANT FINDING.

WE ACTUALLY DIDN'T FIND STRONG EVIDENCE THAT THERE WAS ANY PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING, AT LEAST IN THE STATE MAP.

OUR FOCUS WAS ON THE STATE LEVEL.

AND I THINK YOU HAVE GOT TO GIVE DEMOCRATS A LOT OF CREDIT BECAUSE AS YOU ALLUDED TO, THEY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY PUSH THROUGH SOME MAPS THAT WOULD HIGHLY ADVANTAGE THEIR PARTY AND THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IN FACT EVEN REPUBLICANS WE SPOKE WITH THAT WERE ON THE CRC OR JUST HAD FOLLOWED THE PROCESS CLOSELY, THEY ALL BASICALLY HAD TO GIVE CREDIT TO DEMOCRATS AND SAID THEY REALLY COULD HAVE MADE THIS MUCH WORSE FOR US.

AND THEY REALLY DID PUT FORTH, AT LEAST IN TERMS OF PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING, A PRETTY FAIR SET OF MAPS.

YOU GOT TO GIVE THEM CREDIT FOR THAT.

>> Gwyneth: IF YOU'RE PROTECTING WHO IS IN OFFICE NOW AND THEY HAVE STRONG MAJORITIES IN BOTH HOUSES, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PROTECT INCUMBENTS AND YOU CONTINUE DEMOCRAT DOMINANCE DESPITE THE CHANGES.

>> Gabriel: AS YOU KNOW WELL, WHEN IT COMES TO PARTISAN POLITICS THERE IS NO LIMITS ON HOW BIG AN ADVANTAGE YOU CAN HAVE SO I WAS PREDICTING ACTUALLY, AND A LOT OF FOLKS I KNOW IN THE LEGISLATURE AS WE STARTED CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE CRC, A LOT OF THEM WOULD TELL ME, YOU KNOW, GABE, I AM WITH YOU PRINCIPALLY ON THIS, BUT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY TAKE IT TO REPUBLICANS.

SO, I PERCEIVED GOING INTO THIS, WE WERE GOING TO SEE A LOT MORE EXTREMITY IN THAT AND THE REALITY IS THERE WASN'T A BIG PROBLEM THERE IN TERMS OF PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING WHICH I THINK IS A WIN FOR EVERYBODY.

IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CYCLE.

>> Gwyneth: THAT IS SO INTERESTING.

YOU KNOW THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT AN ADVISORY COMMISSION WAS PART OF THE PROCESS.

THAT IS NEW.

OVERALL, HOW DID THE COMMISSION DO?

>> Gabriel: I THINK AT LEAST ON A COUPLE OF REALLY IMPORTANT PIECES OF THE PUZZLE THEY DID AN OUTSTANDING JOB.

I WOULD LIKE TO START BY NOTING EVERYBODY WE TALKED TO AND THE EVIDENCE WE COLLECTED SUGGESTED THIS WAS PROBABLY THE MOST SUCCESSFUL REDISTRICTING CYCLE, AT LEAST IN RECENT MEMORY, IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO AND EVERYBODY ATTRIBUTED THAT TO THE PRESENCE OF THE CRC.

AND ONE AREA WHERE I THINK IT REALLY STOOD OUT WAS IN TERMS OF COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT.

A LOT OF THIS, YOU HAVE GOT TO GET A HUGE AMOUNT OF RESPECT TO JUSTICE CHAVEZ WHO LED THE CRC.

HE MADE SOME REALLY IMPORTANT DECISIONS THAT OPENED UP ACCESS POINTS TO A WIDER SEGMENT OF THE COMMUNITY, ESPECIALLY TRIBAL MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY, THAT DON'T OFTEN HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO ENGAGE IN THIS PROCESS.

AND, CONSEQUENTLY, WE SAW IT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS IN OUR ANALYSIS, MUCH MORE ENGAGEMENT FROM THE PUBLIC THAN YOU TYPICALLY SEE DURING REDISTRICTING PROCESSES AND I THINK THAT WAS DEFINITELY A RESULT OF THE CRC'S PRESENCE THAT WORKED HARD TO ENSURE THAT THEY MET THE COMMUNITY AT LEAST HALFWAY AND MADE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO ENGAGE.

>> Gwyneth: YEAH, PEOPLE SAID TO ME SO MANY TIMES THAT THE COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT BEFORE WAS A DOG AND PONY SHOW AND IT WASN'T LIKE THAT THIS TIME AT ALL, BUT DO YOU HAVE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS FOR IMPROVEMENTS?

SO, EVEN, NO MATTER WHAT SHAPE THE COMMISSION TAKES NEXT TIME, WHAT NEEDS TO IMPROVE OR WHAT SHOULD BE DIFFERENT?

>> Gabriel: EVEN THOUGH A LOT OF IT WAS -- I WOULD SAY TECHNOLOGY WAS A BIG WIN THAT SHOULD BE CONTINUED.

IT GAVE PEOPLE AN OPPORTUNITY, IF THEY COULDN'T GET THERE IN PERSON, TO PARTICIPATE VIRTUALLY.

THE BIGGEST THING I HEARD THE MOST ABOUT WAS TO BE ABLE TO PLAY AROUND WITH MAP ANALYSIS AND SOFTWARE.

AS AN AVERAGE MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC, I THINK THAT WAS INCREDIBLY VALUABLE BUT, OF COURSE, THERE IS ALWAYS RECOMMENDATIONS OF THINGS THAT DIDN'T GO WELL.

IF WE ARE TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE CRC, YOU HAVE TO START WITH WHO IS ACTUALLY ON THE COMMITTEE AND HOW THAT NAMING PROCESS AND VETTING PROCESS WORKED.

HUGE CONVERSATION EARLY ON RIGHT?

BIG MISSTEPS, UNFORTUNATELY, FOR THE CRC.

YOU HAD VERY LOW LEVELS OF GENDER REPRESENTATION.

IT WAS ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY MALE.

YOU HAD NO NATIVE AMERICAN.

ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY FROM ALBUQUERQUE AND OTHER METRO AREAS.

WE NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB OF DIVERSIFYING THE COMMITTEE MOVING FORWARD.

WHATEVER IT IS.

IF IT IS A CRC, 2.0, OR IF IT IS A TRULY INDEPENDENT COMMISSION, LET'S DO A BETTER JOB OF MAKING SURE IT IS MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF AVERAGE NEW MEXICANS, NOT JUST THOSE THAT ARE POLITICAL ELITES OR CONNECTED TO THE SYSTEM.

LET'S DO A BETTER JOB WITH THAT I THINK IS THE NO.

1 THING I HEARD.

YOU ALSO HAD A WHOLE LOT OF REALLY STRONG CONCERNS ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE LEGISLATURE IN THIS SEGMENT OF THE PROCESS, EVEN THOUGH I WILL SAY, AGAIN, A LOT OF CREDIT TO BE PAID TO THE LEGISLATURE IN DOING A GOOD JOB ON PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING AND OTHER THINGS.

YOU ACTUALLY HEARD A LOT OF LEGISLATORS DIRECTLY STATE, HEY, CRC, YOU DID A REALLY GOOD JOB BUT YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS OUR TIME IN THE PROCESS AND WE HAVE GOT THIS.

IN ESSENCE, IT LED TO A LOT OF FOLKS IN THE COMMUNITY PERCEIVING THE CRC DIDN'T REALLY HAVE THE POWER AND AUTHORITY TO DO AS MUCH AS WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SEEN.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, IN MANY CASES, IT LOOKED LIKE THE LEGISLATURE JUST THREW THINGS OUT AND DID THEIR OWN THINGS, UNFORTUNATELY SOMETIMES BEHIND CLOSED DOORS WITHOUT TRANSPARENCY, AND THAT WE HEARD LOUD AND CLEAR FROM VOTERS IN THE SURVEY.

THAT IS NOT WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE MOVING FORWARD.

IN FACT, OF ALL THE DIFFERENT THINGS THAT WE PUT IN FRONT OF THEM, WHAT THEY PRIORITIZED WAS TRANSPARENCY.

EVERYTHING SHOULD BE OUT IN THE LIGHT OF DAY IS WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS TO SEE.

>> Gwyneth: PROFESSOR SANCHEZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

>> Gabriel: BEEN A PLEASURE.

I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN ELECTION ANALYSIS THIS TIME OF YEAR.

THANK YOU.

GENE: ONLINE RIGHT NOW WE HAVE ANOTHER QUICK CONVERSATION BETWEEN GWYNETH DR. SANCHEZ ABOUT HOW THE REDRAWN CONGRESSIONAL MAPS COULD IMPACT THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.

JUST GO TO OUR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE TO SEE THAT.

NOW BRINGING BACK OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS, A RECENT REPORT FROM THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN IS EXPOSING WHAT EDUCATION OFFICIALS CALL A SERIOUS PROBLEM AT DISTRICTS AROUND THE STATE.

THAT IS HIGH TURNOVER RATES AMONG SUPERINTENDENTS.

NEW MEXICO'S PUBLIC EDUCATION SECRETARY KURT STEINHAUS SAYS THE STATE HAD 37 NEW SUPERINTENDENTS AT THE START OF THE 2021-22 SCHOOL YEAR.

THAT IS OUT OF 89 DISTRICTS STATE-WIDE.

THE ARTICLE HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF REACTION SINCE PUBLISHED, AS YOU MIGHT IMAGINE.

INEZ, WERE YOU SURPRISED TO SEE THAT STATISTIC, BECAUSE, I MEAN, TURNOVER AT THAT POSITION IS A BIG PROBLEM WE ARE ABOUT TO TALK ABOUT.

I AM INTERESTED IN YOUR REACTION TO THAT NUMBER, THOUGH.

>> Inez: I AM NOT SURPRISED BECAUSE I WAS AN EDUCATION REPORTER FOR A LONG TIME BEFORE I BECAME AN OPINION WRITER.

AND SCHOOL BOARDS ARE NOTORIOUSLY POLITICAL AND BOARDS CHANGE AND SUPERINTENDENTS CHANGE AND IN RECENT YEARS THE MANY MANDATES, THE PUBLIC CRITICISM, JUST THE PRESSURE OF BEING A SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT IS CAUSING PEOPLE TO GET OTHER JOBS.

AND THEN YOU HAVE THE INSTANCES WHERE A FEW YEARS AGO WE HAD, YOU KNOW, A BRIGHT YOUNG THING, JOEL BOYD, WHO WAS OUR SUPERINTENDENT AND HE WAS THERE FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS TO MAKE A MARK AND TO LEAVE.

AND SO YOU HAVE THAT PHENOMENON AS WELL.

AND I THINK EDUCATION FOR ALL THAT WE ALL WANT IT TO BE IMPROVED AND HAVE EDUCATION OUTCOMES BETTER FOR KIDS, THAT IF WE DID NOTHING FOR FIVE YEARS EXCEPT FUND IT AND LEAVE TEACHERS AND SUPERINTENDENTS ALONE TO DO THEIR JOBS, WE WOULD BE SURPRISED AT HOW GOOD OUR RESULTS WOULD BE.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN SANTA FE CALLED PINON ELEMENTARY WHICH WAS ONE OF THE LARGEST.

IT REFLECTS THE POPULATION OF THE TOWN IN THAT IT HAD A BUNCH OF MINORITY KIDS, A BUNCH OF POOR KIDS, A BUNCH OF MIDDLE CLASS KIDS.

IT WAS ALMOST SANTA FE IN A MICROCOSM AND IT SHOULD NOT HAVE TESTED WELL BUT IT DID.

AND THE REASON WAS THAT JANIS DEVOTI WAS THE PRINCIPAL FOR I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY DECADES.

SHE IS RETIRED AND SHE TRAINED SOMEBODY AND WE HAVE ANOTHER GOOD PRINCIPAL APPARENTLY WHO IS LEADING PINON AGAIN.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF LONGEVITY AND EXCELLENCE IN LEADERSHIP, YOU DO FINE.

AND THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO WITH OUR SUPERINTENDENTS IN OUR DISTRICTS.

HILARIO CHAVEZ IS OUR SUPERINTENDENT NOW IN SANTA FE.

HE IS VERY YOUNG.

HE IS IN HIS SECOND YEAR.

HOPEFULLY, HE WILL DIG DOWN AND GIVE US FIVE OR 10 YEARS AND DO A GREAT JOB.

>> Gene: HAVE TO TIP OUR HAT TO ROBERT NOTT FROM YOUR NEWSPAPER, FOR A GREAT JOB ON THIS STORY.

HE REALLY KNOCKED THIS THING OUT.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT AT THE SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN FOR YOU FOLKS WATCHING.

LAURA, INTERESTING, COVID WAS MENTIONED, OF COURSE, AS A DETERRENT FOR MANY PROFESSIONS.

ARE WE PAST THE PROBLEM, PERHAPS, FOR SUPERINTENDENT TURNOVER NOW THAT THE PANDEMIC HAS PASSED?

IS THIS AN ANOMALY OR HOW DO YOU SEE THIS?

>> Laura: I THINK THE SUPERINTENDENT TURNOVER IS ALWAYS AN ISSUE.

I THINK IN A GOOD YEAR, I GUESS, NON-COVID YEAR, IT IS GOING TO BE AN ISSUE.

THERE IS A LOT OF MOVEMENT ACROSS DIFFERENT DISTRICTS.

THERE CAN BE SOME DIFFERENCES IN TERMS OF PAY, YOU KNOW, OPPORTUNITIES.

I THINK YOU SEE A LOT OF MOVEMENT BUT COVID HAS CERTAINLY EXACERBATED ALL THAT FOR SUPERINTENDENTS.

IT HAS MADE IT VERY STRESSFUL FOR THEM TO HAVE A COHESIVE, YOU KNOW, CAMPUS, A SCHOOL DISTRICT THAT ACTUALLY FUNCTIONS WELL.

YOU HAVE GOT A LOT OF ISSUES WITH ABSENTEEISM, A LOT OF PRESSURE REGARDING MAKING SURE THAT STUDENTS HAVE WHAT THEY NEED AND THAT TEACHERS ARE ALSO ABLE TO DO THEIR JOB.

I THINK THERE IS JUST SO MUCH UNCERTAINTY AND I THINK IT HAS CAUSED A LOT MORE STRESS FOR SUPERINTENDENTS AND WE JUST, IN GENERAL, WE HAVE -- IT IS HARD FOR US TO ATTRACT PEOPLE FROM OUT OF STATE FOR THESE POSITIONS.

AND THEN WE HAVE NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE IN STATE THAT HAVE RISEN TO THAT LEVEL OF BECOMING SUPERINTENDENTS.

SO, I THINK IT IS A REAL PROBLEM AND ONE THAT I THINK, I HOPE, THE SECRETARY STEINHAUS IS LOOKING AT.

IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY ARE CERTAINLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO ADD MORE RESOURCES TO THE ISSUE, TRAINING, WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO MAKE SURE YOU CONTINUE TO GROW PEOPLE AND KEEP THEM IN POSITIONS.

BECAUSE THAT TURNOVER, YOU KNOW, CREATES SUCH A HUGE PROBLEM WITH DISTRICTS THAT HAVE HAD A LONG-TIME SUPERINTENDENT, YOU SEE THEM ABLE TO DO BETTER OVER TIME BECAUSE THEY HAVE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS THAT THEY HAVE DEVELOPED, FOR EXAMPLE, SUE CLEVELAND IN RIO RANCHO MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE.

>> Gene: THE MOST INTERESTING PART OF THE STORY TO ME, MANAGING RELATIONSHIPS WITH SCHOOL BOARDS.

I MEAN, THIS IS A FRAUGHT SITUATION FOR EVERY SUPERINTENDENT.

IT HAS BECOME SO POLITICIZED, THOUGH.

SCHOOL BOARDS.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

YOU HAVE PEOPLE OPENLY RUNNING OSTENSIBLY IN OPPOSITION TO THE CURRENT SUPERINTENDENT.

WHAT IS A SUPERINTENDENT SUPPOSED TO DO WITH RECALCITRANT DIFFICULT BOARDS?

IS THIS PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE?

>> Diane: I THINK THEY DO A LOT OF PRAYING.

I AM SORRY.

I DON'T MEAN TO BE FLIPPANT ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS ISSUE.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT -- AND SCHOOL BOARDS HAVE THIS ABILITY WITH THE HELP OF THE LEGISLATURE.

IS ONE OF THE POINTS THAT REALLY STRUCK ME WAS THE FACT THAT IN MANY CASES, THE PAY BETWEEN A TOP LEVEL TEACHER AND A SUPERINTENDENT IS MINIMAL AND YOU'RE GOING, OKAY, I CAN STAY HERE AND I CAN MAKE THIS MUCH OR I CAN MAKE 5,000 MORE IF I GO OVER HERE, BUT I HAVE 15 NEW RESPONSIBILITIES THAT ARE -- AND IT BECOMES, IS IT WORTH IT FOR ME TO DO THAT?

YES, I HAVE BEEN AMAZED AT HOW -- I GREW UP IN A SMALL TOWN IN TEXAS AND MY DADDY ACTUALLY WAS ON THE SCHOOL BOARD AT ONE TIME, BUT THE POLITICAL SIDE OF IT IS I SEE IT BECOMING LIKE COUNTY COMMISSION CZAR AND IT REALLY WORRIES ME TO DO THAT.

AND INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON CHILDREN, THEY ARE FOCUSING ON WHO IS IN CHARGE AND WHO IS GOING TO DECIDE WHAT WE ARE TEACHING.

AND I THINK OF TEACHERS WHO HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE TO BECOME SUPERINTENDENTS GO, NO THANK YOU.

>> Gene: WE HAVE GOT ANOTHER PROBLEM AND THAT IS PRINCIPAL TURNOVER AS WELL AND THAT IS PART OF IT AS WELL.

INEZ, LAST WORD ON THE SCHOOL BOARD ISSUE.

ONCE AGAIN THE SCHOOL BOARD PART OF THE JOB IS TO BE ABLE TO FIRE THE SUPERINTENDENT.

RIGHT?

IT IS YOUR BOSS.

AND HOW TO MANAGE THAT POLITICAL MINEFIELD, TO ME THAT WOULD BE THE NO.

1 REASON I WOULD GET OUT OF THE JOB, ESPECIALLY IN A HOT JOB MARKET WHERE, AS LAURA SAID, YOU CAN MAKE 5 TO 10 GRAND MORE.

WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHT ON THAT.

>> Inez: THE SCHOOL BOARD IS TO PASS THE BUDGET AND HIRE AND FIRE THE SUPERINTENDENT.

THOSE ARE THEIR LEGISLATIVE CHARGES.

IT IS NOT TO HIRE THE WRESTLING COACH OR FIGHT WITH SOMEBODY OVER WHETHER THE TEACHER IS DOING CURRICULUM THAT YOU DON'T LIKE.

I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, WE ARE LUCKY IN NEW MEXICO THAT SOME OF THE POLITICAL BATTLES THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN OTHER STATES THAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH SCREAMING AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING, WE DON'T HAVE THAT YET TO THAT DEGREE.

WE DO HAVE, SADLY, SCHOOL BOARDS THAT ARE THERE TO MAKE SURE THEIR COUSINS GET JOBS AND GET RID OF THE SUPERINTENDENT BECAUSE HE WASN'T MEAN TO THE COACH WHO WAS MEAN TO THEIR GRANDSON, THAT KIND OF THING.

WE JUST NEED TO GET OVER THAT.

THE JOB OF SCHOOL HAS TO BE EDUCATING CHILDREN.

EDDIE ORTIZ WAS THE SUPERINTENDENT AT SANTA FE PUBLIC SCHOOLS FOR OVER A DECADE BEFORE HE SADLY DIED IN SURGERY TOO EARLY.

AND HE TOLD ME A GREAT STORY ABOUT HIS FIRST INTERVIEW FOR A TEACHING JOB.

HE HAD GONE TO WEST LAS VEGAS AND HE GOT INTERVIEWED BY THE SCHOOL BOARD.

AND WHEN HE WAS INTERVIEWED BY THE SCHOOL BOARD FOR A TEACHING JOB, HE SAID, I THINK I'LL STAY IN SANTA FE AND HE WENT BACK TO SANTA FE, ROSE THROUGH THE RANKS AND WAS AN ABSOLUTELY VISIONARY SUPERINTENDENT AND WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE THAT.

>> Gene: GOOD STORY TO WRAP THAT UP.

THANK YOU FOR THAT CONVERSATION.

WE'LL BE BACK IN THE VIRTUAL ROUNDTABLE IN ABOUT 10 MINUTES TO TALK ABOUT A NEW STUDY DETAILING THE MILITARY'S IMPACTS HERE IN NEW MEXICO BUT IT IS WHAT WAS LEFT OUT OF THAT REPORT THAT IS CONCERNING ENVIRONMENTALISTS.

ANOTHER ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE IS CIRCLING OVERHEAD FOR PEOPLE LIVING IN CHACO CANYON.

THEY ARE CHALLENGING A PLAN FOR 370 NEW DRILLING PERMITS NEAR THE NATIONAL PARK, RIGHT?

FOR DECADES THOSE DEVELOPMENTS HAVE ENCROACHED ON AND DESTROYED LANDSCAPES THAT ARE SACRED TO MANY OF THE SOUTHWEST TRIBES.

IN THE COMING WEEKS YOU'LL HEAR FROM SOME OF THE PEOPLE TRYING TO PROTECT CHACO.

THIS WEEK, OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER, LAURA PASKUS, TALKS WITH THERESA PASQUAL WITH THE PUEBLO OF ACOMA.

>> Laura: HI, THERESA.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> Pasqual: HI, LAURA.

HOW YOU DOING?

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Laura: I WANTED TO START AND I WISH WE WERE ACTUALLY SITTING THERE TOGETHER TODAY RIGHT NOW.

CHACO CANYON, LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH IT AS A NATIONAL PARK AND A PLACE THEY MIGHT VISIT FOR A DAY OR MAYBE CAMP.

BUT IT IS A LOT MORE THAN THAT TO THE PEOPLE OF THE PUEBLO OF ACOMA AND OTHER TRIBES.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY CHACO CANYON IS SO SPECIAL.

>> Pasqual: SURE, CHACO CANYON, AS MOST PEOPLE REFER TO IT AND KNOW IT AS, IS REFERRED TO AS W'AASRBA SHAK'A THERE AT MY HOME COMMUNITY OF ACOMA.

AND IT IS SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE IT PLAYS AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN THE MOVEMENT AND MIGRATION OF OUR PEOPLE AS THEY MADE THEIR WAY INTO PRESENT DAY ACOMA.

MANY PUEBLOS AND MANY TRIBES HAVE SOME KIND OF RELATIONAL CONTEXT TO THAT SPECIAL AND SACRED PLACE.

MANY PUEBLOS REAFFIRM THEIR PRESENT DAY CONNECTION TO THE CHACO AND ALSO HAVE FORAYS AND ORAL HISTORIES THAT TAKE THEM THROUGH THAT GREATER CHACO LANDSCAPE AS THEY MADE THEIR WAY TO THE PRESENT DAY PUEBLOS THAT THEY OCCUPY NOW.

SO, THESE PLACES WERE PLACES WHERE OUR ANCESTRAL PEOPLE AND THEIR CLANS REALLY STARTED TO FORM AND ORGANIZE INTO THE DISTRICT SOCIETIES AND PUEBLO COMMUNITIES THAT WE HAVE TODAY.

SO, THEY BROUGHT THAT KNOWLEDGE, THAT SKILL, THOSE TEACHINGS THAT THEY ACQUIRED OVER CENTURIES OF LIVING ON THE LANDSCAPE.

IT REALLY BROUGHT THAT FORWARD INTO THE PRESENT DAY COMMUNITIES AND SO WHAT WE HAVE NOW IN OUR PUEBLO COMMUNITIES HERE IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO REALLY ARE THE DESCENDANTS OF THOSE PEOPLE, ANCESTRAL PEOPLE WHO ONCE OCCUPIED THOSE LANDS.

SO THAT IS WHAT GIVES IT SPECIAL MEANING.

>> Laura: IN THE LAST, GOSH, MANY DECADES PROBABLY SINCE THE 1940'S, THE SAN JUAN BASIN HAS BEEN A PLACE THAT HAS BEEN DRILLED FOR NATURAL GAS AND MORE RECENTLY FOR SHALE OILS, I THINK IT IS CALLED.

I AM CURIOUS, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS OF WELLS AROUND THAT CHACO LANDSCAPE AND I KNOW THERE IS BROAD IMPACTS BUT WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WAYS IN WHICH THAT DRILLING HAS AFFECTED THE LANDSCAPE AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE A PART OF IT?

>> Pasqual: WE KNOW THAT OVER 90% OF FEDERAL LANDS IN THAT GREATER CHACO LANDSCAPE HAVE ALREADY BEEN PERMITTED FOR EXPLORATION AND DEVELOPMENT.

WHAT THE PUEBLOS AND TRIBES HAVE LONG BEEN ASKING FOR FOR THE FEDERAL AGENCIES IS REALLY THE PROTECTION OF THAT LAST REMAINING, I WOULD SAY, EVEN LESS THAN 10% AS DEVELOPMENT CONTINUES.

WHAT IS LOST IN THAT LANDSCAPE, REALLY, IS EVERYTHING THAT THE DEVELOPMENT TOUCHES, THAT IS NEEDED TO SUPPORT THAT KIND OF EXTRACTION FROM ROADS TO WELL PADS TO THE VISUAL LANDSCAPE, TO THE SOUND SCAPES THAT EXIST, TO THE MIGRATION ROUTES OF WILDLIFE, TO JUST THE ABILITY TO CONNECT WITH A SACRED LANDSCAPE AND ANCESTORS IN QUIETNESS AND PEACE AND SOLITUDE.

ALL OF THAT IS LOST WITH DEVELOPMENT.

AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO FAR TO SEE IT.

WHETHER YOU COME IN FROM THE NORTH SIDE OR COME IN THROUGH THE SOUTH ENTRANCE TO THE PARK, ONE WILL SEE WHAT DIFFERENT TYPES OF EXTRACTION HAVE DONE OVER DECADES OF DEVELOPMENT IN THAT AREA.

BECAUSE MY VILLAGE ACOMA SITS TO THE SOUTH, I HAPPEN TO COME IN FROM THE SOUTH ENTRANCE TO THE PARK.

AND IT IS NEVER LOST ON ME THAT JUST IN THAT SHORT TRIP TO CHACO, THAT ONE CAN SEE URANIUM DEVELOPMENT, WE CAN SEE THE IMPACT OF COAL AND COAL MINING IN THAT AREA AND NOW OIL AND GAS.

AND BECAUSE, AS I SAID, OUR HISTORY ISN'T WRITTEN.

IN OUR PUEBLO COMMUNITIES AND MANY TRIBAL COMMUNITIES, THAT HISTORY, THAT CONNECTION TO PLACES ALL HELD IN THE TRANSMISSION OF OUR LANGUAGES THROUGH THOSE STORIES, PRAYERS AND SONGS.

THAT AS THAT LAND IS DISTURBED AND DEVELOPED, IT BECOMES AS IF ONE IS ERASING THE PAGES OF THAT HISTORY BOOK.

WE CAN'T GROW A NEW LANDSCAPE.

CERTAINLY, ONE MAY SAY, WELL, AFTER THE DEVELOPMENT WE'LL TRY AND REGROW THE GRASS AND THE PLANTS BUT, REALLY, THE CONTEXT IS LOST.

SO, WHEN WE LOSE THAT AND THE ABILITY TO BRING OUR CHILDREN TO THOSE PLACES, TO TEACH THEM, THEN WHAT REALLY WE ARE IMPACTING IS THE ABILITY OF A PRESENT DAY COMMUNITY TO NOT ONLY TRANSMIT THAT KNOWLEDGE BUT ALL OF THE KNOWLEDGE THAT IS CONTAINED WITHIN THAT LANDSCAPE.

OUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND CONCEPTS IN TERMS OF CONSERVATION, IN TERMS OF STEWARDSHIP, IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING HOW TO DEAL WITH CLIMATE CHANGE.

ALL OF THOSE ANSWERS ARE CONTAINED WITHIN THAT LANDSCAPE BUT IT CAN ONLY BE POSSIBLE IF THOSE COMMUNITIES ARE STILL ALLOWED TO MAKE THAT VERY PRESENT DAY CONNECTION AND ACTIVELY USE THAT LANDSCAPE AS IT WAS INTENDED.

>> Laura: THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAD APPROVED ALMOST 400 NEW DRILLING PERMITS WHICH A COALITION OF TRIBES AND ENVIRONMENTALISTS AND ARCHEOLOGIST HAVE REALLY BEEN OPPOSING AND PUSHING BACK ON THIS DEVELOPMENT FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND NOW TRY TO REVERSE THAT DECISION BUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS STICKING TO IT.

WHY DO YOU THINK WE, AS A SOCIETY, SEEM UNABLE TO OR UNWILLING TO PROTECT THESE MOST SPECIAL AND LIMITED OF PLACES?

>> Pasqual: I THINK IT IS HARD FOR ALL OF US BECAUSE WE ARE NOT WILLING TO MAKE THAT SACRIFICE.

PROTECTING SOME OF THESE SPECIAL PLACES REQUIRES HARD WORK, COMMITMENT, DEDICATION OF RESOURCES BUT ALSO SACRIFICE ON OUR OWN PERSONAL PART.

WE ALL LIVE IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT IS HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON OIL AND GAS AND WE HAVEN'T REALLY INVESTED LONG ENOUGH WITH ENOUGH RESOURCES TO START REALLY MOVING US AWAY.

WE HAVE JUST REALLY BEGUN THAT TRANSITION HERE IN THE STATE.

BUT WHAT WE NEED IS REALLY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THAT IMPACT ON PRESENT DAY COMMUNITIES AND WHAT IS LOST IF WE FAIL TO ACT, IF WE FAIL TO MOVE, IF WE FAIL TO MAKE THAT COMMITMENT TOWARDS CHANGE.

>> Laura: THANK YOU THERESA.

I APPRECIATE YOU TALKING WITH ME.

>> Pasqual: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Gene: YOU CAN CATCH THAT FULL CONVERSATION BETWEEN THERESA AND LAURA.

JUST SEARCH FOR THE OUR LAND CHANNEL ON YOUTUBE.

LET'S BRING OUR LINE OPINION PANEL BACK FOR ONE MORE DISCUSSION THIS WEEK.

UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO'S BUREAU OF BUSINESS AND ECONOMIC RESEARCH LOOKED AT DATA FROM 2019 FROM CANNON AIR FORCE BASE, INCLUDING MELROSE AIR FORCE RANGE, HOLLOMAN AIR FORCE BASE, KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE AND WHITE SANDS MISSILE RANGE.

NOW, THOSE FOUR INSTALLATIONS ARE ESTIMATED TO GENERATE NEARLY THREE BILLION DOLLARS IN LABOR INCOME AND A COMBINED INDUSTRIAL OUTPUT OF MORE THAN 14 BILLION.

LAURA, DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA THE ECONOMIC IMPACT WAS THAT HUGE IN THE STATE.

WE KNOW IT IS HUGE BUT THAT IS HUGE.

>> Laura: YEAH, I THINK THE COMPARISON BETWEEN THAT IMPACT AND OTHER MANUFACTURING OR EVEN LIKE OIL AND GAS SECTOR AND OTHERS THAT IS WHAT WAS INTERESTING WHEN YOU SEE THE MAGNITUDE.

OBVIOUSLY I THINK IT'S CLEAR THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF MILITARY INSTALLATIONS HERE.

WE HAVE A STRONG FEDERAL PRESENCE BETWEEN MILITARY SECTIONS AND THE LABS AND SO I KNOW THAT IT GENERATES ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND JOBS BUT CERTAINLY I WASN'T AWARE OF THE FULL MAGNITUDE OF IT UNTIL THIS REPORT.

I THINK THAT MEANS IT IS PRETTY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE SOLID RELATIONSHIPS, I THINK, THAT OR CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION HAS GOOD RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE ADMINISTRATION IN WASHINGTON AND WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE AND OTHERS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE NOT ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK, SO TO SPEAK, FOR ANY KIND OF CLOSURES BECAUSE I THINK THAT WILL HAVE A HUGE IMPACT.

>> Gene: BRAC IS NOT A GOOD WORD AROUND HERE.

THOSE FOUR LETTERS, B-R-A-C. INEZ STUDIES ALSO LOOKED INTO THE STATE'S MORE THAN -- THIS IS ANOTHER STAT THAT IS INTERESTING.

MORE 140,000 VETERANS WHO MAKE UP NEARLY 9% OF OUR ADULT POPULATION.

THAT'S AMAZING.

AND VETERANS IN OUR STATE, EVEN MORE INTERESTINGLY, EARN ON THE AVERAGE, 64% HIGHER WAGES THAN NON-VETERANS.

SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF OR IS THAT A GAP WE SHOULD, I DON'T KNOW, BE CONCERNED ABOUT?

>> Inez: I THINK THAT ONE OF THE REASONS PEOPLE JOIN THE MILITARIES IS SO THEY CAN GET THEIR EDUCATION PAID FOR AND ONE OF THINGS YOU LEARN IN THE SERVICE, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER YOUR OPINION IS OF HAVING TOO BIG OF A STANDING MILITARY OR NOT, IS YOU LEARN HOW TO WORK, YOU LEARN HOW NO TAKE ORDERS AND YOU LEARN HOW TO COMPLETE TASKS.

SO IF YOU COME BACK TO WORK AND YOU KNOW THOSE THINGS, YOU'RE GOING TO DO WELL.

MY FAVORITE COUSIN WHO DID NOT FINISH COLLEGE BECAUSE HE GOT BUSY WORKING IS THE MOST SUCCESSFUL OF ALL OF OUR 18 FIRST COUSINS AND HAS STAYED ON AT A LOCAL BIG COMPANY THROUGH LIKE 50 LAYOFFS BECAUSE HE LEARNED HOW TO WORK, HOW TO ASK QUESTIONS AND HOW TO GET THE JOB DONE.

SO, WHAT I WOULD THINK IS IF I WAS A NONVETERAN, WHICH I AM, BUT I WOULD LEARN TO WORK AS WELL AS THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE MILITARY.

A GREAT WORK ETHIC WILL TAKE YOU FAR.

>> Gene: SENATOR, WE HAVE COVERED THE POSITIVES, AND THERE IS A LOT OF THEM FOR THE MILITARY PERSONNEL HERE, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE COSTS?

WHAT I MEAN BY THAT PFOS CONTAMINATION FROM CANNON AND HOLLOMAN, YOU KNOW, JET FUEL SPILLS AT KIRTLAND AND THE SUPERFUND SITE AT WHITE SANDS, THESE ALL CREATED COSTS TO PUBLIC HEALTH, THE ENVIRONMENT, FUTURE GENERATIONS BURDENED WITH CLEAN-UP COSTS AND HEALTH IMPACTS.

SHOULD THESE HAVE BEEN FACTORS FOR CONSIDERATION AS WELL?

>> Diane: WELL, I THINK THEY ARE NOW.

WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT BY MAKING THE PUBLIC AWARE AND ELECTED OFFICIALS OF ALL THESE THINGS.

BECAUSE, IF YOU DON'T GET INVOLVED AND YOU DON'T GET TOLD THAT THAT IS GOING ON AND BEING REPORTED ON, THEN YOU DON'T HAVE CONCERNS.

YOU JUST SEE THE 14 BILLION-DOLLARS.

I THINK THAT AS WE GO FORWARD AND WE HAVE SEEN SOME MONIES APPROPRIATED TO HELP DO SOME OF THE CLEAN-UP AND STUFF.

I THINK THERE WILL BE A GREATER PRESSURE ON OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, PARTICULARLY OUR CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION.

I MEAN WE DON'T -- WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE FIVE OF THEM -- WE DON'T HAVE PETE DOMENICI UP THERE FIGHTING OUR BATTLES TO KEEP US GOING.

AND, YES, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES AND HEALTH ISSUES BUT WHAT DO WE REPLACE 14 BILLION-DOLLARS WITH AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

>> Gene: GOOD POINT THERE.

REAL QUICK ANOTHER SIGNIFICANT COST, STICK WITH ENVIRONMENTS HERE, IS CLIMATE CHANGE.

THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST INSTITUTIONAL USER OF PETROLEUM.

A LOT OF FOLKS DON'T KNOW THAT AND THE SINGLE LARGEST INSTITUTIONAL PRODUCER OF GREENHOUSE GASES, AS A CONSEQUENCE.

NOW, AS A STATE THAT CARRIES A LARGER BURDEN THAN MOST WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE CHANGE, SHOULD WE BE MORE CRITICAL HOW WE RECEIVE THE MILITARY'S CONTRIBUTIONS ON THAT.

>> Laura: I THINK CERTAINLY JUST HAVING THE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THE IMPACTS ARE IS IMPORTANT.

THE REPORT WE LOOKED AT WAS AN ECONOMIC REPORT THAT WAS LOOKING AT THE POTENTIAL ECONOMIC BENEFIT OF MILITARY INSTALLATIONS BUT A MORE COMPREHENSIVE LOOK AT THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS WOULD BE A USEFUL COROLLARY TO THAT, BUT I THINK IN TERMS OF THE DIRECTION THAT THE MILITARY IS GOING, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS TO LOOK AT AND CONSIDER IN THIS PLANNING ACROSS THE WHOLE COUNTRY.

I MEAN, I THINK WE HAVE IMPACTS HERE BUT I DON'T THINK THEY ARE NECESSARILY DISPROPORTIONATE TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OTHER STATES.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL AND CERTAINLY OUR DELEGATION CAN BRING THOSE ISSUES UP, BUT I KNOW THAT OVER, I WOULD SAY, THE LAST 15 YEARS SINCE I HAVE BEEN AWARE OF SORT OF RENEWABLE DEVELOPMENT, CERTAINLY THE MILITARY HAS STARTED TO LOOK MORE AT TRYING TO BE MORE SUSTAINABLE IN PRACTICES AND TRYING TO INCORPORATE MORE RENEWABLE ENERGY BUT I THINK, YEAH, THEY ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO MOVE FORWARD.

I MEAN, JUST GIVEN THE GEO-POLITICAL ISSUES WE HAVE, WE NEED TO HAVE A STRONG MILITARY SO IT MAKES SENSE TO THINK MORE SUSTAINABLE LONG-TERM TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE CLIMATE CHANGE ISSUES.

>> Gene: INTERESTING POINT THERE.

INEZ, THERE WAS AN INTERESTING STORY THIS WEEK, THE NAVY IS NOW WORKING VERY HARD ON BATTERY POWER, EV FOR SUBMARINES, AND THEY ARE GOING TO GET THERE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

THE MILITARY CAN LEAD ON THESE THINGS.

THEY HAVE AN INTERESTING POSITION, YOU KNOW WHAT I AM DRIVING AT HERE, TO REALLY AFFECT CHANGE IN A LOT OF WAYS.

>> Inez: WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE MILITARY, THEY HELPED DESEGREGATE THE COUNTRY EARLIER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE AND I THINK THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT HAS IDENTIFIED CLIMATE CHANGE AS ONE OF THE THREATS TO THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD.

SO I DO BELIEVE THAT THEY WILL ACT.

WE HAVE TO GET FROM PETROLEUM TO OTHER WAYS TO POWER VEHICLES.

AND IF THEY CAN DO IT FAST, I BET YOU THEY WILL.

THEY ARE ALWAYS LOOKING AT WHAT WORKS AND WHAT IS EFFICIENT.

>> Gene: THANKS AGAIN TO OUR LINE OPINION PANEL AS ALWAYS THIS WEEK.

OUR LINE SENIOR PRODUCER, LAURA PASKUS, WROTE EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THIS IN HER WEEKLY NEWSLETTER.

YOU CAN FIND A LINK AND SIGN UP FOR THAT ON NMPBS.ORG.

NOW, OUR GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY LEADERS ARE WATCHING CLOSELY AS RUSSIA CONTINUES ITS INVASION OF THE UKRAINE.

RUSSIAN PRESIDENT PUTIN WEDNESDAY SIGNED LAWS ANNEXING PART OF THE COUNTRY IN RUSSIAN CONTROL IN THE LATEST ESCALATION IN THE CONFLICT.

WE SPOKE TO UKRAINIAN CITIZENS HERE IN NEW MEXICO WHEN THE WAR BEGAN IN FEBRUARY AND SINCE THEN WE HAVE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH A JOURNALIST AND FILMMAKER WHO HAS BEEN ON THE FRONT LINE.

PATRICK HILSMAN HAS COVERED MILITARY CONFLICTS FOR YEARS AND HAS FAMILY RIGHT HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO SIT DOWN AND TALK WITH HIM ON A RECENT STOP IN ALBUQUERQUE, TO TALK ABOUT THE HORRORS AND TRIUMPHS HE WITNESSED DURING HIS TIME COVERING THE WAR.

>> Lou: JOINING ME TODAY IN STUDIO IS PATRICK HILSMAN.

HE IS AN INDEPENDENT FILMMAKER AND JOURNALIST WHO SPENT THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS IN UKRAINE.

THANKS FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY, PATRICK.

FIRST, WHY UKRAINE?

I KNOW YOU HAVE WORKED IN AREAS OF CONFLICT BEFORE AS A FRONT LINE JOURNALIST.

WHAT ABOUT THIS SITUATION PUSHED YOU TO GO AND DOCUMENT WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE?

>> Hilsman: I FELT SOMETHING OF AN OBLIGATION BECAUSE I HAD BEEN COVERING A LOT OF WARS THAT RUSSIA SPECIFICALLY HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN AND I HAVE WRITTEN A LOT OF OPEN SOURCE INVESTIGATIVE PIECES ABOUT RUSSIAN WEAPONRY AND THE FACT THERE WAS A LARGE WAR INVOLVING SOME OF THE TOPICS THAT I PREVIOUSLY COVERED.

AND ONE OF MY BEST FRIENDS IS A LEBANESE UKRAINIAN WHO I MET A DECADE AGO WHILE I WAS COVERING SYRIA.

AND AS THE INVASION KICKED OFF ME WAS CHRONICLING THE STORY OF HIS VILLAGE WHICH WAS SURROUNDED BY RUSSIAN FORCES.

THANKFULLY THEY NEVER MADE IT IN BUT THEY WERE APPROXIMATELY TWO KILOMETERS FROM HIS HOUSE.

AND THE RUSSIAN AND UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS WERE ACTUALLY FIRING AT EACH OVER HIS HOME.

AND HE SUGGESTED THAT I COME VISIT HIM AND DO SOME JOURNALISM.

AND I STAYED IN LVIV, WHICH IS THE WEST, AND ALSO TRAVELED ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO ZAPORIZHZHIA, KHARKIV, KRAMATORSK WHICH IS IN NAMBACK.

>> Lou: HOW DID UKRAINE COMPARE TO THE OTHER WARTIME SCENARIOS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN IN?

YOU MENTIONED SYRIA.

>> Hilsman: THE MAJOR DIFFERENCE WAS THAT IN SYRIA, ONE SIDE HAD ABSOLUTE OVERWHELMING FIRE POWER AND THE OTHER SIDE EVENTUALLY HAD ALMOST NO FIRE POWER.

THE FACT THAT THE UKRAINIANS HAD STUFF LIKE EARLY WARNING SYSTEMS, ADVANCED SATELLITE TECHNOLOGY THAT THE AMERICANS PROVIDED THEM, IT MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

JUST HAVING A WARNING OF A FEW MINUTES IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOLDIERS GETTING BLOWN UP IN AN AIR STRIKE AND BEING ABLE TO TAKE SHELTER AND SURVIVE IT.

I WITNESSED THINGS LIKE THAT WHERE THE TECHNOLOGICAL EDGE THAT THE UKRAINIAN FORCES HAVE, IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, SAVED A LIFE AND THAT IS A MASSIVE DIFFERENCE.

WHEREAS IN SYRIA, THE REGIME FORCES WOULD SIMPLY ENCIRCLE CITIES AND JUST BLOW THEM TO SMITHEREENS.

THEY FLATTENED CITIES AS WELL IN UKRAINE BUT THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT IT HAS COME AT A TERRIBLE COST FOR THEM TO DO THAT, WHEREAS IN SYRIA THEY WERE ABLE TO DO IT WITH RELATIVELY FEW CASUALTIES AND THUS NO CONSEQUENCES.

>> Lou: YOUR PIECE, COMEDY OF WAR, THAT YOU SHARED WITH US, FEATURING VALERIA, WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO FOLLOW A COMEDIAN OF ALL PEOPLE IN A WARTIME SCENARIO?

>> Hilsman: IN A WAR, THE KIND OF GALLOWS HUMOR THAT PEOPLE HAVE REALLY SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE CONDITIONS THAT THEY ARE IN.

AND WHAT THEY NEED TO GET THROUGH THE DAY.

AND WHAT I FELT WAS COMPELLING ABOUT HER WAS THAT SHE WAS AN INTERNALLY DISPLACED PERSON FROM THE CITY OF KHARKIV, WHICH IS A MAJORITY RUSSIAN SPEAKING CITY IN EASTERN UKRAINE, WHICH HAS BEEN VICIOUSLY TARGETED BY THE RUSSIAN FORCES, WHICH IS, IN ITSELF, QUITE IRONIC BECAUSE A LARGE NUMBER OF VICTIMS OF PUTIN'S AGGRESSIONS HAVE BEEN THE RUSSIAN SPEAKERS OF UKRAINE AND THIS RUNS COUNTER TO THE PROPAGANDA THEY HAVE PUT OUT SAYING THEY ARE LIBERATING THE RUSSIAN SPEAKING POPULATION.

OF COURSE, THE PRESIDENT IS RUSSIAN SPEAKING.

THE EXPERIENCE THAT SHE DESCRIBED TO US IS ABSOLUTELY HARROWING BECAUSE PART OF WHAT MAKES IT SO STRESSFUL FOR PEOPLE TO LEAVE HOME IS THAT AS THEY LEFT, THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THEY WOULD END UP BECAUSE THE TRAIN HAD TO TAKE THE SAFEST ROUTE TO THE WEST.

SO SOMETIMES THAT WOULD MEAN THEY END UP IN TURNOFLE OR END UP IN LVIV OR ELSEWHERE.

AND TO JUST HAVE A COUNTRY WHICH, IN MANY WAYS, LOOKS LIKE MY COUNTRY, THEY DON'T HAVE STARBUCKS BUT YOU CAN GO INTO A COFFEE HOUSE WHICH IS THE EQUIVALENT OF STARBUCKS.

THEY HAVE CONTACTLESS PAYMENT.

EVERYTHING APPEARS AS IT WOULD IN AMERICA IN A LOT OF WAYS BUT THEN A FEW KILOMETERS AWAY THERE IS THE SECOND LARGEST ARMY IN THE WORLD INVADING.

IT WAS INTERESTING TO LEARN HOW PEOPLE ARE REALLY STUBBORNLY INSISTING ON CLINGING TO DAILY LIFE.

AND IN KHARKIV, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS CONSTANT SHELLING.

THERE HAVE BEEN A HORRIBLE NUMBER OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES YET THE SUBWAY STILL RUNS.

AND HAVING THE SUBWAY OPERATIONAL, DESPITE SHELLING, DESPITE BOMBING, DESPITE RUSSIAN FORCES LITERALLY TRYING TO ENCIRCLE THE CITY AT A CERTAIN POINT, IT IS INSPIRING AND SHOWS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF STUBBORNNESS TO INSIST ON CONTINUING DAILY LIFE.

AND I THINK THAT SHE GOING ON STAGE MAKING JOKES ABOUT THE WAR, WHICH HAS ROBBED HER OF HER HOME AND OF HER CAREER FOR THE TIME BEING, WAS DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT WE CAN ALL LEARN FROM.

>> Lou: YOU MENTIONED THAT STUBBORNNESS AND WE HAVE HEARD EXAMPLES OF THAT FROM OTHER PEOPLE WE HAVE TALKED TO FROM UKRAINE HERE IN NEW MEXICO AND JUST WATCHING NEWS STORIES, BUT HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THAT THAT PLAYS INTO THE RELATIVE SUCCESS THAT UKRAINE HAS HAD HOLDING OFF THE RUSSIANS?

>> Hilsman: I THINK PEOPLE MIGHT PUT TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON THERE BEING SOME KIND OF UNIQUE CHARACTER TRAIT TO PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE.

BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT TERRIBLY DIFFERENT FROM ANYONE ELSE IN HOW THEY VIEW LIFE.

PEOPLE WANT THEIR KIDS TO GO TO SCHOOL.

PEOPLE WANT TO BE ABLE TO ENJOY THEIR LIFE AND LAUGH AND BE HAPPY AND PEOPLE ARE STILL GETTING MARRIED, BUT PART OF THE REASON THEY HAVE BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL IN FIGHTING BACK IS SIMPLY THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO DIE.

THEY HAVE SEEN WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN CITIES LIKE MARIUPOL AND IT IS AN APOCALYPSE.

SO THE IDEA OF BANDING TOGETHER TO TRY TO RESIST THAT IS NOT -- IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY TAKE A UNIQUE OUTLOOK OR A UNIQUE STUBBORNNESS TO BE WILLING TO RESIST.

IT IS JUST PEOPLES' INSISTENCE ON LIVING IS REALLY WHAT THEIR SECRET WEAPON IS, I THINK.

>> Lou: YOU'RE BACK HERE IN NEW MEXICO WHERE YOUR PARENTS LIVE.

COMING BACK, WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW HERE IN THE U.S. AND IN NEW MEXICO ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN UKRAINE?

>> Hilsman: I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT THE PROPAGANDA THAT IS BEING PUT FORWARD ABOUT IT BEING SOME KIND OF COUNTRY OPPRESSIVE TO RUSSIAN SPEAKERS IS LAUGHABLE.

THE PRESIDENT IS A RUSSIAN SPEAKER.

THE CITIES SUFFERING THE MOST FROM RUSSIAN BOMBARDMENT ARE MAJORITY RUSSIAN SPEAKING.

A LOT OF TIMES IF YOU GO OUT ON THE FRONT LINES, THE SOLDIERS WILL BE SPEAKING RUSSIAN.

AND IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, IT IS UNUSUAL TO HEAR UKRAINIAN SPOKEN AND THAT IS THE PILLAR OF PUTIN'S PROPAGANDA IS THE NOTION THAT HE IS LIBERATING THE RUSSIAN SPEAKING POPULATION OF UKRAINE.

IT IS JUST FALSE BECAUSE THE RUSSIAN SPEAKING CITIES HAVE BEEN JUST VICIOUSLY TARGETED AND I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THAT IS NOT A TRUTHFUL MESSAGE COMING FROM RUSSIAN.

SECONDLY, UKRAINE NEEDS AIDE, PERIOD.

THERE IS A HUGE LACK OF SOME BASIC SUPPLIES.

FUEL IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO COME BY.

IT IS RATIONED AND FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO LIVE NORMALLY, THEY NEED VEHICLES BECAUSE UKRAINE IS A GIGANTIC COUNTRY SO TRAVELING BETWEEN CITIES NOW THAT AIR TRAVEL IS GROUNDED IS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT.

YOU CAN BE IN A CAR FOR 24 HOURS SOMETIMES AND YOU HAVE TO GET USED TO LIVING IN CARS IN ORDER TO TRAVEL ANYWHERE.

AND THINGS LIKE SOLAR ENERGY, HYBRID VEHICLES, CARS WITH BETTER GAS MILEAGE, BASIC MEDICAL EQUIPMENT, THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT THINKING OF VERY MUCH IN THE MEDIA OR IN PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS ARE NEEDED OUT THERE.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS A LOT OF VOLUNTEERS GOING OVER TO FIGHT.

UKRAINE HAS A LARGE ARMY AND IT HAS A LOT OF MANPOWER.

WHAT WOULD PROBABLY BE MORE HELPFUL FOR THEM WOULD BE EXPERIENCED DRIVERS OR MEDICS OR PEOPLE THAT ARE GOOD AT OPERATING DRONES, PEOPLE THAT ARE GOOD AT REPAIRING VEHICLES, PEOPLE THAT ARE GOOD AT SOFTWARE.

THERE IS A NEED FOR EVERYTHING NOW AND WE JUST LOOK AT THE MILITARY SIDE BUT UKRAINE'S SUCCESS SO FAR HAS AS MUCH TO DO WITH THEM INSISTING ON KEEPING CIVIL SOCIETY ACTIVE AS IT DOES ON THE MILITARY ASPECTS.

ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I SAID WHEN I GOT THERE WAS I SAID, YOU KNOW, I THINK UKRAINE MIGHT ACTUALLY BE SUCCESSFUL IN THIS WAR AND MY FRIEND SAID, WHY?

>> I SAID, BECAUSE I JUST PAID FOR A SODA AT THE GAS STATION WITH A CREDIT CARD THAT STILL WORKS.

A LOT OF THE AREAS AROUND KIEV THAT WERE DEVASTATED BY THE RUSSIAN BOMBARDMENT, YOU CAN GO THERE NOW AND THEY ARE REPAIRING THEM.

I WAS HEADED EAST ONCE AND I REMEMBER WE HAD -- THERE WAS A DESTROYED BRIDGE AND WE HAD TO SORT OF DRIVE DOWN BY THE RIVER BED TO A LITTLE, LIKE A SMALLER BRIDGE THAT HAD BEEN BUILT, TO TRY AND COMPENSATE FOR THE FACT THAT THE BRIDGE WAS BLOWN UP.

AND A COUPLE OF WEEKS LATER WHEN WE CAME BACK, THERE WAS A NEW BRIDGE THERE.

I SAID THIS WAS BLOWN UP LAST TIME WE WERE HERE, RIGHT?

IT WAS REPAIRED.

SO, YOU SEE PEOPLE FIXING THINGS UNDER BOMBARDMENT.

THAT IS EXTRAORDINARY AND IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS CONTRIBUTING TO THEM BEING ABLE TO AT LEAST FIGHT FOR THEIR INDEPENDENCE, I THINK IT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THAT.

IT IS NOT JUST SOLDIERS, IT IS EVERYBODY.

>> Gene: YOU CAN WATCH A LONGER VERSION OF THAT INTERVIEW SATURDAY EVENING ON COLORES, THAT AIRS AT 4:00 P.M.

RIGHT HERE ON NMPBS.

YOU CAN ALSO WATCH PATRICK HILSMAN' SHORT FILM, COMEDY AT WAR, ON THE IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK, IN FOCUS.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU