>>JON: LAWMAKERS OFTEN SPEAK OF "EMERGENCY LEGISLATION", BUT THIS YEAR IT'S NOT HYPERBOLE.

HI, I'M JON SCHWANTES AND ON THIS EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS WE'LL DISCUSS EFFORTS TO CURB THE GOVERNOR'S EMERGENCY POWERS, NOW AND IN THE FUTURE.

INDIANA LAWMAKERS - FROM THE STATEHOUSE TO YOUR HOUSE.

>>JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S EMERGENCY POWERS ARE: REPRESENTATIVE MATT LEHMAN, A REPUBLICAN FROM BERNE AND THE AUTHOR OF ONE MEASURE DESIGNED TO GIVE LAWMAKERS A GREATER SAY IN THE APPLICATION, SCOPE, AND DURATION OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH'S EMERGENCY MANDATES.

INDIANAPOLIS ATTORNEY DAN EVANS, PRESIDENT EMERITUS OF IU HEALTH, AND, VIA ZOOM, FORMER INDIANA SUPREME COURT JUSTICE FRANK SULLIVAN JR., NOW A MEMBER OF THE FACULTY AT THE MCKINNEY SCHOOL OF LAW ON INDIANA UNIVERSITY'S INDIANAPOLIS CAMPUS.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

I AM FASCINATED BY THIS TOPIC.

CLEARLY THE BIG STIR IN THIS STATE AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO START.

THIS GOVERNOR, AND LOTS OF OTHER GOVERNORS, HAVE BROAD EMERGENCY POWERS.

THE INDIANA STATUTE.

I THINK HAS 29 SPECIFIC CAUSES AND NUMBER 30 IS EVERYTHING ELSE THAT MIGHT BE DEEMED AN EMERGENCY AND IT'S OFTEN UTILIZED STORMS AND NATURAL DISASTERS, BUT NEVER THIS MUCH ATTENTION HERE AND, AGAIN, ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

PROTESTS ACT RALLIES, LITIGATION, YOU NAME IT.

IS IT, MATT LEHMAN BECAUSE YOU THINK OF THE DURATION OF THIS -- THIS ORDER.

IS THAT THE SEVERITY OF THE RESTRICTIONS OR IS IT THE POLITICS THAT HAVE BEEN INTERWOVEN WITH THIS PARTICULAR EMERGENCY ORDER HERE AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY?

>>: I WOULD SAY FIRST OF ALL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME HERE.

IT IS ALL OF THE ABOVE AND YOU CAN TAKE PIECES OF ANY OF THOSE THINGS YOU BROUGHT FORTH BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE CODE TO THIS STARTED BACK IN THE 40s AND YOU CAN SEE THE TRIGGERS CAME OUT OF WORLD WAR II THE COLD WAR AND GOT INTO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS WHERE THE LEGISLATIVE BRANSON EXECUTIVE BRANCH THERE MAY BE ISSUES OUT THERE AS A RESULT OF ASK THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO PIVOT AND CHANGE WITHOUT COMING TO INDIANAPOLIS.

AND THEY WERE NOT LIMITED TO OVER THOSE YEARS THE WHAT IF'S AND THEN LIMITED IN SCOPE TO THIS COUNTY OR THAT COUNTY OR SOUTHERN INDIANA OR NORTHWEST INDIANA.

>>: TYPICALLY IT'S A NATURAL DISASTER SO THERE IS LANGUAGE AND THERE YOU ANTICIPATE A PANDEMIC AND NEVER THE 12 MONTHS.

NEVER SOMETHING THAT WOULD SHUT THINGS DOWN.

SO ALL OF THAT HAS KIND OF PERCOLATED TO THE TOP OF OKAY, LET'S START WITH A COUPLE OF THINGS.

ONE IS WHY ARE WE IN THIS POSITION.

IT SHOULD BE DONE XY OR Z TO PREPARE, BUT FROM A LEGISLATIVE STANDPOINT SHOULD THERE BE DIFFERENT BALANCE OF POWERS BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE SAID WHY WERE YOU BACK IN SESSION TO DEAL WITH THIS AND CONSTITUTIONALLY, SPECIAL SESSION IS CALLED BY THE GOVERNOR SO WE SET OUT.

WELL YOU SET OUT FROM MARCH, APRIL MAY, JUNE, JULY.

>>: PERHAPS MORE ANXIETY ON THE PART OF LAWMAKERS.

DOES IT MATTER AT ALL TO YOU THAT THE GOVERNOR NEVER SOUGHT THESE POWERS.

I DON'T THINK -- I THINK THE MOST RECENT ADDITION CAME AFTER HURRICANE KATRINA AND THE LEGISLATOR WITHOUT PROMPTING WHO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MITCH DANIELS AT THAT TIME IF MEMORY SERVES HE DIDN'T WANT THE POWER.

YOU THRUST THIS UP ON HIM.

>>: WHAT IF.

WHAT IF THAT HAPPENED HERE.

WHERE WE PREPARED FOR THAT SO THE WHAT IF'S WERE GREAT TO PUT IN PLACE BUT WHAT NO ONE ANTICIPATED THIS WHAT IF WE HAVE A PANDEMIC THAT CREATES A TEN MONTH PROBLEM WITH HOW DO WE HANDLE CHURCHES AND SCHOOLS AND BUSINESSES.

>>: TALK ABOUT EACH ONE OF THOSE.

>>: IT REALLY BECOMES -- IT'S EASY TO LOOK IN THE REARVIEW MIRROR AND SAY WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS DIFFERENTLY IN 2005, BUT WE HAVE TO BE PROSPECTIVE AND SAY DO WE SET THE TABLE FOR FUTURE LEGISLATION TO SAY THIS IS WHAT THEY DID AND NOW THERE'S A GOOD FOOTPRINT OUT THERE.

>>: AND LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING SIMILAR.

WHY DO YOU THINK THE FUSS HERE?

I'M INTERESTED IN YOUR PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE I SPENT 13 YEARS OR SO AS HEAD OF THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTHCARE PROVIDER WITH ACTUALLY CLARION WHEN YOU TOOK OVER, PART OF YOUR OVERSIGHT WAS TO REBRAND AND EXPAND THE OPERATION.

AND, OF COURSE, ALSO WHERE A PARTNER IN BAKER AND DANIELS.

FORGIVE ME I WOULD'VE WALKED OFF THE SET HERE IF I KNEW THERE WAS COMPETITION.

BAKER'S DANIEL SO YOU HAVE THE LEGAL PERSPECTIVE AND HEALTHCARE PERSPECTIVE.

WHY ALL THE FUSS.

>>: IN THE LAST 20 YEARS MEARS, SARS, EBOLA AND NOW.

MIRRORS AND SARS IN EACH ONE AND A BOWL OF WERE DISRUPTIVE AS THIS.

THIS HAS BEEN HIGHLY DISRUPTIVE CHANGED OUR PERSONAL LIVES IN A WAY THAT CANNOT -- COULD NOT HAVE BEEN ANTICIPATED.

WHAT THE HEALTHCARE COMMUNITY REQUIRES IS CLARITY FROM ITS POLITICAL AND GOVERNMENTAL LEADERSHIP, CLARITY.

AMBIGUITY WILL KILL PEOPLE.

CLARITY WILL SAVE LIVES.

I COMMEND GOV.

HOLCOMB ON HIS CLARITY AND HIS LEADERSHIP IN HIS WEEKLY PRESS CONFERENCES HAVE BEEN A BLEND OF I AM IN CHARGE HERE.

HELP ME DO THIS AND CONVINCING PEOPLE TO DO WHAT HE CONSIDERED AND I AGREE WITH HIM THE RIGHT THING BUT DISRUPTIVE SO AFTER KATRINA IRONIC YOU SHOULD MENTION THAT IU HEALTH HIRED PEOPLE FROM NEW ORLEANS TO TEACH US HOW TO DEAL WITH CATASTROPHIC EVENTS ON WHAT WE LEARNED AT THE CORE WAS OPERATION.

SO HOW DO YOU PREPARE FOR A PANDEMIC.

WE ARE PREPARING AS THE PANDEMIC IS ONGOING.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THE GOVERNOR ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER AND IT GOT CLOSE TO THE EXPIRATION DATE AND THERE WAS A SPECIAL SESSION BY WHATEVER NAME YOU MIGHT CALL IT.

WHAT HAPPENS ARE WE SUPPOSED TO STAND DOWN?

STAND UP, REDEPLOY?

I DON'T KNOW.

INDIAN IS NOT A HUGE STATE, BUT WE HAVE 92 COUNTIES AND 94 OR 95 DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH SO WE HAVE FACILITIES OR RECEIVE PATIENTS FROM EVERY COUNTY.

>>: THE OPPORTUNITY FOR LACK OF CLARITY, WHICH IS WHERE YOU STARTED YOUR ANSWER AND THAT'S WHAT THE HEALTHCARE COMMUNITY WANTS MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT TO COME BY BECAUSE OF THE REGIONAL MANNER THAT SOMETIMES.

>>: NOT TO PUT TOO FINE A POINT ON IT IT MAKES IT NOT ONLY MORE DIFFICULT, BUT KILLS PEOPLE SO THIS ACTUALLY MATTER SO THE VIRUS DOES NOT CARE WHERE THE ADAMS COUNTY LINE IS.

DOES NOT CARE SO WE HAVE A HOME IN WEST VIRGINIAN AND A GROUP OF WEST VIRGINIA ON MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND WENT TO MYRTLE BEACH.

CAME BACK AND SAYING IN A CHURCH CHOIR AND GUESS WHAT HAPPENED?

SO I APPRECIATE THE SENSITIVITIES OF FIRST AMENDMENT AND SEPARATION OF POWERS AND ALL THAT, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY WENT THAT SICK PATIENT PRESENTS THEMSELVES THEN THE TREATMENT WILL BE THE SAME NO MATTER HOW THEY GOT THE DISEASE.

SO I HAD MY SECOND SHOT YESTERDAY.

IRONICALLY.

I HAD ZERO TROUBLE.

I HAD ZERO TROUBLE REGISTER FLOORING UP, BY THE WAY, SO ALL THAT ADVERSE PRESS OUT THERE.

>>: I GOT ONLINE.

I GOT ONLINE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE AND YOU SEE ME HERE TODAY.

I'VE HAD ZERO REACTIONS.

THE OTHER THING FLOATING AROUND [OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS] THE OTHER THING FLOATING AROUND IS FALSE INFORMATION.

>>: THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WE TRY TO HAVE THESE KINDS OF DISCUSSIONS AND BY THE WAY, THOSE WERE NOT IN VAIN BECAUSE IF THERE'S EVER A HURRICANE THAT FLOODS THE BANKS OF THE WHITE RIVER IU HEALTH WILL BE READY FOR THAT.

>>: THAT'S THE IDEA.

>>: FRANK SULLIVAN, AGAIN YOU'VE JUST HEARD DAN EVANS QUEUED THIS UP WITH THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND SEPARATION OF POWERS AND THE KIND OF THING THAT WOULD MAKE A FORMER JUSTICE AND NOW A LAW PROFESSOR TINGLE WITH EXCITEMENT.

OUT OF FAIRNESS I WANT TO ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION BECAUSE YOU HAVE A POLITICAL BONE OR IN YOUR BODY AND YOU WERE ON A VISOR FOR EVAN BAYH BEFORE YOU JOINED THE SUPREME COURT.

IS THIS POLITICS IS THIS JUST PEOPLE FRUSTRATED.

IS IT JUST HOOSIERS FAMOUS PATIENTS HAS WORN THIN?

WHAT IS THAT?

>>: THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE WITH YOU ON THIS PROGRAM AND YOU ARE RIGHT I'VE HAD VERY GOOD FORTUNE IN MY CAREER NOT ONLY IN WORKING IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH BUT THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS ON THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT ALTHOUGH MOST OF MY GOVERNMENT SERVICE WAS A JUSTICE ON THE INDIANA SUPREME COURT FOR 19 YEARS.

I DO HAVE SOME VIEWS AS ALL OF US DO I SUPPOSE AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN ABOUT THE PANDEMIC AND THE POLITICAL WINDS THAT BLOW HERE.

AND INDEED HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THE OTHERS ORDERED I'M A MEMBER OF SEVERAL BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS BUT FOR THE GOVERNMENT EXCUSE ME THE GOVERNOR'S EXECUTIVE ORDERS WE COULD NOT HAVE MET OR WORKED DURING THE PAST YEAR SO I'M VERY GRATEFUL TO HIM FOR HIS LEADERSHIP IN THIS REGARD.

BUT I THINK THE PRINCIPAL READING YOU'VE ASKED ME HERE TODAY IS BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME SERIOUS CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LEGISLATION CURRENTLY PENDING IN THE LEGISLATURE.

THOSE WHO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MY JUDICIAL CAREER KNOW THAT I WAS A STRONG ADVOCATE OF THE LAWMAKING POWERS OF THE LEGISLATURE ALL ON THE COURT.

WE FREQUENTLY RECEIVE CHALLENGES TO THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF ENACTMENT OF THE LEGISLATURE AND I BELIEVE I DEVELOPED A REPUTATION OF BEING AN ADVOCATE OF THE LEGISLATURE'S POSITIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, I WAS THE ONLY JUSTICE TO DISSENT WHEN OUR COURT DECLARED THE INDIANA PROPERTY TAX SYSTEM TO BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

SO I'M A STRONG SUPPORTER OF THE LEGISLATURE BUT THERE ARE SOME LINES THE CONSTITUTION DRAWS THAT CANNOT BE CROSSED AND IT'S MY PERCEPTION THAT SOME OF THE LEGISLATION THAT'S BEING TALKED ABOUT TODAY DOES CROSS THOSE LINES, DOES VIOLATE BOTH ARTICLE 4 SECTION NINE OF THE CONSTITUTION, WHICH PROVIDES THE GOVERNOR THE SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE AUTHORITY TO CALL A SPECIAL SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE IF, BUT ONLY IF IN THE OPINION OF THE GOVERNOR THE PUBLIC WELFARE REQUIRES THAT.

AND SECOND ARTICLE THREE SECTION ONE OF THE INDIANA CONSTITUTION THAT PROVIDES FOR SEPARATION OF POWERS.

EARLIER IN THIS BROADCAST A REPRESENTATIVE INDICATED THAT HE THOUGHT THERE WAS PROBABLY SOME NEED -- THESE ARE HIS WORDS, I WROTE THEM DOWN OR A DIFFERENT BALANCE OF POWER.

OF COURSE, THE WHOLE EXPERIMENT INTO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY HAS BEEN ADJUSTING THE BALANCE OF POWERS BETWEEN THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCHES, BUT WE DO HAVE A MANDATE IN THE CONSTITUTION FOR SEPARATION OF POWER AND WE CAN ONLY SHIFT THE BALANCE OF POWER SO FAR WITHOUT TRANSGRESSING THOSE MANDATES.

>>: LOTS TO DO ON THERE.

YOU HAVE TO JUMP RIGHT INTO THE ISSUES.

LET'S JUMP TO THE FIELDS PROCESS.

AND BY THE WAY, I CHEATED YOU ON YOUR RESUME ON A STINT ON CAPITOL HILL.

SO I DON'T WANT TO CHEAT YOU.

>>: THAT'S WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO EARLIER I REALLY GOT MY START IN THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT I HAVE THE GOOD FORTUNE OF WORKING FOR TWO MEMBERS OF CONGRESS FROM INDIANA EARLY ON AND I ALSO WORKED FOR ON THE STAFF OF ONE OF THE FOUR LEGISLATIVE CAUCUSES SOON AFTER GRADUATING FROM COLLEGE.

SO I HAVE A PERSONAL HISTORY IN ALL THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT AND HAVE DEEP RESPECT FOR THE ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF ALL OF THEM.

>>: I WILL GET EVERYONE TO WEIGH AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE SEPARATION OF POWERS.

BUT YOU LAUDED THE GOVERNOR FOR TAKING STEPS AND IMPOSING RESTRICTIONS THAT ENABLED YOU AND THE BOARDS TO MEET DURING THE PANDEMIC.

OBVIOUSLY THE LEGISLATURE AND WE WILL GET INTO WHY THEY COULD NOT WEIGH IN EARLIER BECAUSE IT'S A PART-TIME LEGISLATURE AND THEY WERE NOT IN SESSION DURING THE FIRST EIGHT OR NINE MONTHS OF THIS EPISODE.

THE COURTS, COULD THE GOVERNOR AND I DON'T WANT TO GET BOGGED DOWN, COULD HE HAVE CLOSED THE COURTS IN ANOTHER BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT.

>>: I'M SORRY,, DONE WANT TO THE COURTS?

>>: COULD HE HAVE SHUT DOWN THE COURTS UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE?

I KNOW THERE WERE ALTERATIONS IN THEIR OPERATIONS BUT COULD HE HAVE SIMPLY SAID YOU ARE DONE UNTIL I SAY SO.

JUST I'M CURIOUS SINCE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BALANCE OF POWER.

>>: TO SOME EXTENT.

FIRST OF ALL, THE ACTION THE GOVERNOR TOOK THAT AFFECTED ME IN MY LIFE AS A MEMBER OF THE STATE EMPLOYEES THE SURVEY COMMISSION AND THE CIVILIAN POLICE THE CIVILIAN POLICE ALL WERE DONE PURSUANT TO AUTHORITY HE WAS PROVIDED BY THE LEGISLATION AND IT PASSED A LAW THAT THE GOVERNOR CAN SUSPEND THE OPERATION OF STATUTES A STATUTE VERY CLOSE TO YOUR HEART MR. SCHWAN IS THE OPEN-DOOR LAW WOULD HAVE REQUIRED OUR COMMISSIONS TO HAVE IN PERSON MEETINGS.

AND REALLY NONE OF US WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ATTEND WE WOULD HAVE FELT IT WAS TOO RISKY TO OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILIES AND SO THE BUSINESSESOF THE THREE COMMISSIONS THE COMMISSIONS WOULD HAVE GROUND TO A HALT.

THANKS TO THE LEGISLATURE GIVING THE GOVERNOR THAT AUTHORITY HE TOOK ACTION THAT PERMITTED THE ORDERLY PERMISSION OF THE -- BUSINESS OF THE GOVERNMENT TO CONTINUE AND THEY WERE PARTNERS IN THAT AND I THINK THAT'S GOOD AND IF REFEREE JON MENTIONED -- REPRESENTATIVE LEHMAN AND COLLEAGUES BELIEVE THEY'VE GIVEN TOO MUCH AUTHORITY TO THE GOVERNOR THEY ARE WELL WITHIN THEIR AUTHORITY TO DIAL BACK ON THAT.

>>: YOU JUST GAVE ME A PERFECT SEGUE AND YOU CAN FILIBUSTER YOU ARE NOT IN THE SENATE NOW NOT EVEN IN THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, BUT YOU RAISE AN INTERESTING QUESTION THAT I WILL POST TO MATT LEHMAN ABOUT THIS NOTION THERE WERE PARTNERS I DON'T THINK YOU WERE PARTNERS.

>>: I THINK AS A WHOLE NO.

SO AS JUSTICE SULLIVAN SAID I THINK THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH HAS THE ABILITY TO COME IN AND MAKE NECESSARY CHANGES SO WHAT WE ARE ATTEMPTING TO DO IS TO SAY -- SIMPLY TO SAY.

>>: SAY WHAT IT DOES.

>>: SO IT SAYS IS WE ARE COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THAT THE CONSTITUTION IS VERY CLEAR AND THAT IS THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION SET WENT TO START ET CETERA AND IN THE OPINION OF THE GOVERNOR IF IT'S AN EMERGENCY HE CAN CALL A SPECIAL SESSION.

>>: WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW IS SHOULD THERE BE ANOTHER SESSION AND WE WILL LOOK AT AN EMERGENCY TYPE SESSION AND THAT IS IF SOMETHING UNDER TITLE TEN WHETHER A HURRICANE HITS OR SOMETHING ELSE, IS THERE A TRIGGER THAT SAYS WE ARE NOT COMING BACK TO DO THE WORK OF WHAT MIGHT BE BROUGHT IN A SPECIAL SESSION SO WE CAN COME BACK AND SAY IN THAT EMERGENCY MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T BE HERE AND THIS WOULD ALLOW THE LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL TO DO WHAT THE FIRST HALF OF THAT CONSTITUTION SAYS WHICH IS WE CAN DO THAT SET ANOTHER TIME BY LAW TO COME BACK IF WE WILL BE LIMITED TO THE SCOPE WHEN WE COME AND WHAT WE DO.

>>: AND WE SAID EVERYTHING IS RELATED TO COVID.

>>: AND THIS IS WHERE THE BALANCE OF POWER IS BECAUSE WE WILL CREATE THIS AND THERE WILL BE THIS EMERGENCY SESSION THAT WE COME BACK IN SOMEBODY'S GOING TO SAY NOW I WANT TO TALK ABOUT X AND.

>>: BECAUSE IT'S RELATED.

>>: IN THE RESOLUTION THAT THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL PASSED TO CALL THE EMERGENCY SESSION IT MUST SPECIFICALLY CITE WHAT THEY ARE COMING BACK TO DO AS LIMITED -- THE AGENDA HAS TO BE IN THAT RESOLUTION WE ARE COMING BACK TO DO X.

>>: THIS LOOKED AT ALL 50 STATES AND SOME STATES DON'T HAVE ANY ON THE BOOKS AND WHO KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS IN THOSE STATES.

HAWAII SEEM TO HAVE THE MOST POWER FOR THE GOVERNOR UNLIMITED, BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A TSUNAMI CAN STRIKE AT ANY MOMENT.

BUT SOME OTHER PLACES THAT DIDN'T HAVE FULL-TIME LEGISLATURE SAID A SUBSET OR THE LEADERS.

>>: THAT'S -- STILL REMEMBER THIS IS THE FIRST PART OF FEBRUARY AND AS MUCH AS WE WANT TO GET THIS OUT TO THE GOVERNOR AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE THERE'S ALSO THE PROCESS AND THAT IS WHEN WE ARE DONE THIS WILL LOOK A LOT MORE LIKE THAT BALANCE OF POWER AND MORE LIKE THE ABILITY TO CALL OURSELVES THAT FOR A NARROW WINDOW OF EMERGENCY.

>>: DOES THIS MATTER.

WE'VE HEARD A LOT OF HEALTH EXPERTS SAY IF PEOPLE HAD JUST DONE WHAT CHINA DID EVERYBODY HAS TO STAY HOME NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT, BUT YOU HAVE TO WEAR YOUR MASKS OR YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL SO DOES EFFICACY AND THIS IS YOUR LAWYER HAD CACTUS THAT MATTER SO THIS IS A HEALTH REMEDY IS NOT THE RIGHT COURSE TO TAKE.

>>: EVIDENCE-BASED EFFICACY MATTER SO WHAT THEY REQUIRE IS INTERPRETING THE ACTIVITY IS CLEAR.

IF THIS LEADS TO NUANCE AND AMBIGUITY PEOPLE WILL BE HURT BY THAT.

ALL THEY WANT TO DO IS STUDY THE HISTORY OF PUBLIC HEALTH IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S NOT A NEW ISSUE THAT'S THE BALANCE OF POWER BETWEEN PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS EXECUTIVE BRANCHES.

>>:.

>>: NEW YORK CITY HAD HUNDRED OF HORSES DIE WHAT YOU CALL THAT.

THE PLAGUES IN LONDON AND THE MORE LIKELY YOU WERE TO GET INFECTED AND DIANA TOOK INDIANA TO FLORIDA ATE THE WATER.

SO I WOULD ENCOURAGE THE VIEWERS TO GOOGLE INDIANAPOLIS 1918 FLU.

AND THEY WILL SEE WHAT WE DID A HUNDRED YEARS AGO AND IT'S NEARLY IDENTICAL.

I HAD A LITTLE BIRD I OPENED THE WINDOW AND IT WAS INFLUENZA.

IT WAS A LITTLE GIRL'S SONG IT WAS SO COMMON.

I'VE SEEN CASKETS LINED UP BUT THE METHOD IT HOSPITAL WHERE THEY WERE DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT TO QUARANTINE ASKING FOR HELP AS SOLDIERS CAME HOME AND THEY WOULD BE HOME IN ONE DAY SO THE HEALTHCARE COMMUNITY CLARITY AND A SINGLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION.

>>: FRANK SULLIVAN, WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN LITIGATED IN INDIANA?

WE'VE SEEN AROUND THE COUNTRY WHEN THEY WEIGHED IN ON ASPECTS OF THE EMERGENCY POWERS AND CALIFORNIA WE MENTIONED BEFORE WE STARTED ROLLING THAT GAVIN NEWSOM THE GOVERNOR THERE SAID YOU CAN'T HAVE THESE CHURCH ASSEMBLIES OF A CERTAIN SIZE AND WHEN RUTH BADER GINSBURG WAS ON THE SUPREME COURT SHE SAID I AGREE 54 IN FAVOR OF THE GOVERNOR AND AMY COMES ON AND THE OTHER DIRECTION.

THE HOSPITAL INDUSTRY WANTS CLARITY CAN WE EXPECT IT FROM THE COURTS.

>>: I THINK YOUR QUESTION WHY HAVEN'T WE HAD LITIGATION IS A GOOD ONE.

I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF LITIGATION HERE, BUT MY ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION WOULD BE PRIMARILY BECAUSE GOV.

HOLCOMB HAS DONE AN EVENHANDED JOB IN HANDLING THIS AND I WOULD SAY MR. LEHMAN AND HIS COLLEAGUES HAVE FELT THE GOVERNOR HAS OVERSTEPPED HIS BOUNDS AND A LAWSUIT WOULD BE A PERFECTLY APPROPRIATE WAY TO CHALLENGE THAT AND TEST THAT.

AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN WHAT I FIND A LITTLE BIT OBJECTIONABLE ABOUT THE LEGISLATURE RIGHT NOW IS WE ARE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS CRISIS.

WE'VE HAD 1500 PEOPLE OF OUR FELLOW CITIZEN DIE SINCE THE LEGISLATURE HAS BEEN IN SESSION AND IT SEEMS TO ME THESE QUESTIONS ARE HIGHLY APPROPRIATE ONES TO ASK BUT LET'S GET THE CURRENT CRISIS BEHIND US FIRST.

IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR WE DON'T QUESTION THE WAR POWERS THOUGH MAYBE WHEN THE WAR IS OVER WE TAKE A LOOK AT THEM.

IT SEEMS IT'S HIGHLY PREMATURE AND I'M SPEAKING AS A PILOT -- PRIVATE CITIZEN AS A LAWYER AND FORMER JUDGE I HOPE SENATOR LEHMAN AND HIS COLLEAGUES DO NOT PURSUE THIS IDEA OF CREATING A NEW KIND OF SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE, WHICH HE CALLS AN EMERGENCY SESSION.

I'VE HEARD OTHER PEOPLE TALK TO IT AS AN INITIATED SESSION BECAUSE CREATING SUCH A SESSION WOULD CLEARLY BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF BOTH ARTICLE 4 SECTION NINE AND ARTICLE THREE.

>>: I WILL GIVE THE AUTHOR A CHANCE TO RESPOND BECAUSE WE ARE ALMOST OUT OF TIME.

THIS IS THE MOST FASCINATING TOPIC.

I WISH WE HAD FIVE HOURS.

BUT RESPOND TO THAT.

>>: I THINK WITH ALL RESPECT TO THE JUDGE I THINK IN THE CONSTITUTION IT DOES ALLOW FOR US TO SEND A NEW SESSION.

I REALLY DO.

AND I THINK WHAT I'M HEARING FROM THE CONSTITUENCY IS WE HAVE TO HAVE A BETTER SYSTEM THAN RIGHT NOW.

AND THEY COULD DEAL WITH PRIVATE SCHOOLS OR BUSINESSES, WHICH PROBABLY WOULD BRING EVEN MORE CONFUSION OR LITIGATION.

>>: AND THOSE ISSUES ARE NOT ON THE TABLE AS WE MOVE FORWARD WITH [INAUDIBLE].

>>AGAIN, MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN: REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE MATT LEHMAN OF BERNE, DAN EVANS, PRESIDENT EMERITUS OF IU HEALTH, AND FORMER INDIANA SUPREME COURT JUSTICE FRANK SULLIVAN JR. >>>IF YOU HAVE $300 MILLION FOR SCHOOLS AND YOU GIVE 2/3 OF IT TO SCHOOL CHOICE, HOW MUCH DOES THAT LEAVE PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

WE'LL DO THE MATH ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

>>>TIME NOW FOR OUR WEEKLY CONVERSATION WITH INDIANA LAWMAKERS ANALYST ED FEIGENBAUM, PUBLISHER OF THE NEWSLETTER INDIANA LEGISLATIVE INSIGHT, PART OF HANNAH NEWS SERVICE.

I SHOULD POINT OUT YOU ARE AN ATTORNEY AND I BELIEVE THE LAW SCHOOL CLASSMATE OF FRANK SULLIVAN.

>>: ABSOLUTELY.

A.

>>: THAT QUALIFIES YOU TO ANSWER EVERY QUESTION I HAVE HERE TODAY.

I WILL START WITH ONE THAT PUT YOU ON THE SPOT.

FRANK SULLIVAN SUGGESTED THIS IS CUT AND DRIED IN THAT THERE IS A CHALLENGE TO THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THIS PROVISION AS DESCRIBED OR AS PROPOSED AT THIS POINT, WOULD GO SOUTH.

IS IT AS CLEAR-CUT AS THAT?

>>: I THINK JUSTICE SULLIVAN IS A CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR AND MAKES A GOOD CASE FOR IT.

IT WOULD HAVE TO BE SOMETHING TO BE DECIDED BY THE FULL SUPREME COURT IF IT GETS TO THAT POINT BUT WHAT IS MORE PROBLEMATIC IS HOW THINGS WORK OR WOULD WORK IN PRACTICE AND IT'S KIND OF PROBLEMATIC TO LIMIT THE POWERS OF THE GOVERNOR WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT MIGHT EMERGE AT ANY PARTICULAR POINT.

THIS YEAR WE HAD A PANDEMIC AND YOU NEVER KNOW IF WE GET HIT BY A METEOR RIGHT.

IF THE NORTH KOREANS COME IN WITH SOME PULSE DEVICE THAT DESTROYS VIRTUALLY ALL OF OUR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS.

YOU DON'T KNOW IF WE WILL END UP AT WAR AND THE FEDERAL POWERS OVERRIDE THE STATE POWERS AND THEN YOU JUST LOOK BACK TO THE BLIZZARD OF 1978 AND THE PROBLEMS WE HAD BACK THEN WHEN THE GOVERNOR DECLARED ALL KINDS OF EMERGENCIES DEALING WITH THE COLD CRISIS AND BROUGHT IN THE NATIONAL GUARD AND WE HAD THE BLIZZARD AT THAT SAME TIME AND RECORD COLD.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS COMBINED TO CREATE A CRISIS AND NOBODY WAS CONCERNED WHEN THE GOVERNOR STEPPED IN AND MADE SURE THE STATE RAN AND WE HAD TAKES ON I 65 AND.

>>: DO YOU THINK -- THERE ARE LOTS OF BILLS THAT ATTACKED US IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

WE TALK ABOUT THIS.

SOME PUT A TIME LIMIT ON IT AND OTHERS WOULD SAY BASICALLY THINGS THE GOVERNOR COULD REGULATE TECHNO- PRIVATE SCHOOLS KICK NO PRIVATE BUSINESSES AND WHICH IN THIS WRESTLING MATCH WHAT DO WE SEE COME OUT OF THIS DO YOU THINK.

>>: YOU WILL SEE A COMPROMISE BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE AND THE LEGISLATIVE LEADERS ON WHAT HAPPENS AND I THINK YOU WILL SEE THE LEGISLATIVE LEADERS PLAY A BIGGER ROLE LIKE THIS EMERGENCY OVERSIGHT COMMISSION THAT JUSTICE SULLIVAN OUTLINED, BUT PERHAPS ON A LESS FORMAL BASIS AND WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THE LEGISLATURE DOESN'T WANT TO TIE PEOPLE'S HANDS AND DOESN'T WANT TO DICTATE THE SPECIFICS UNLESS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AGENCIES GIVE THE DETAILS ON SOME OF THESE THINGS BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE LEGISLATURE -- IF YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE BILL THAT THE COMMITTEE THEY ARE STARTING.

>>: I GUESS THE PANDEMIC HAS PRESENTED NEW CHALLENGES AND LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

THANK YOU AS ALWAYS, FOR YOUR INSIGHT AND PROGNOSTICATION ABOUT THE BILLS FOR BOTTLED WATER AND MILK.

ON THE EPISODE STREAMS AND CONTENT VISIT US ON THE WEB AT WFYI.ORG/LAWMAKERS.