>>> NOW TO THE BATTLE FOR THE TRUTH.

AUTHOR NINA JANKOWICZ WAS THE FACE OF THE U.S. EFFORTS TO TAKE ON DISINFORMATION.

APPOINTED EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF A NEW U.S.

HOMELAND SECURITY BOARD TASKED WITH TACKLING THE ISSUE BACK IN 2022.

BUT IN LESS THAN A MONTH, THE BOARD WAS DISSOLVED AMID A STORM OF RIGHT-WING CRITICISMS THAT IT WAS CENSORING CONSERVATIVE SPEECH.

AT THE SAME TIME, JANKOWICZ WAS FACING THREATS OF PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

NOW, SHE'S PUSHING BACK AGAINST THE CRITICS AND THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES THAT STARTED TO HOUND HER.

SHE TELLS OUR MICHEL MARTIN JUST HOW SHE INTENDS TO FIGHT BACK.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US AGAIN, NINA.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU WERE THE HEAD OF THE DISINFORMATION GOVERNANCE BOARD.

COULD YOU JUST REMIND US OF WHAT THIS BOARD WAS MEANT TO DO?

>> SURE.

THIS WAS AN INTRAAGENCY POLICY GROUP AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, OR MEANING TO COORDINATE THE BEST PRACTICES ACROSS THE DEPARTMENT TO -- TO REALLY RESPOND TO DISINFORMATION.

OF COURSE, THAT BOARD NEVER GOT OFF THE GROUND BECAUSE THERE WERE A LOT OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES, COMING MOSTLY FROM THE AMERICAN RIGHT, THAT SAID THAT THE BOARD WAS GOING TO BE ENGAGING IN CENSORSHIP.

THAT HAD NO BASIS IN REALITY.

I WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN A JOB THAT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

AND AS A RESULT, WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY WITH MANY OF THE THINGS THAT ARE ATTACKING DISINFORMATION RESEARCHERS, THAT REALLY ALL STEMMED, IN MY OPINION, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THAT CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE BOARD.

>> SO, YOU WERE THE TARGET OF A DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN FOR BEING PART OF A WORKING GROUP THAT WAS TRYING TO ADDRESS DISINFORMATION.

>> YEAH THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

IT'S VERY IRONIC, BUT I ALSO THINK, IN A LOT OF WAYS, IT MAKES ME BETTER FOR THE WORK THAT I DO.

I HAD ALWAYS STUDIED THIS, I HAD SEEN THE HUMAN EFFECTS ON OTHER PEOPLE, BUT NOW, HAVING BEEN THE RECIPIENT OF THREATS AND HARASSMENT FOR THE PAST YEAR-PLUS, I KNOW THAT THESE CAMPAIGNS HAVE A REAL HUMAN EFFECT.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT, TO THE DEGREE THAT YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE, WOULD YOU MIND TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE EFFECTS OF THIS, IF YOU COULD JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT SOME OF THE FALLOUT HAS BEEN FOR YOU AND FOR YOUR FAMILY?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S BEEN A REALLY DIFFICULT YEAR.

AND I HAVE, TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE, TRIED TO SPEAK UP AS MUCH AS I CAN ABOUT IT, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERLINE, AGAIN, THAT I'M NOT JUST A CARICATURE ON THE INTERNET, I'M A WOMAN WHO HAS A FAMILY AND THIS HAS HAD AN ENORMOUS IMPACT ON MY FAMILY.

I'VE HAD A STALKER, WHERE I'VE HAD TO TAKE OUT A PROTECTIVE ORDER.

I'VE BEEN NAMED IN FRIVOLOUS LAWSUITS THAT HAVE COST ME TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO DISMUSS.

I HAVE TAKEN 100 HOURS DEALING WITH CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES, JIM JORDAN'S WEAPONIZATION OF GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE, WHICH SUBPOENAED ME TO TESTIFY BEFORE THEM IN A CLOSED DOOR HEARING ABOUT MY ACTIVITIES WITH THE BOARD.

IT HAS REALLY TAKEN AWAY FROM MY ABILITY TO DO SUBSTANTIVE WORK IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY FIELD, BUT IT ALSO HAS BEEN AN ENORMOUS BURDEN ON MY FAMILY IN TERMS OF OUR SECURITY.

IT'S NEVER GOING TO BE THE SAME.

WE STILL RECEIVE VIOLENT THREATS PRETTY REGULARLY, AND AS A RESULT OF ALL THIS, I JUST -- I DECIDED THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT?

I'M NOT GOING TO STAND FOR IT, AND I DECIDED TO FILE A SUIT AGAINST FOX NEWS FOR THEIR DEFAMATION OF ME, WHICH, IN MY OPINION, LED TO A LOT OF THE THREATS AND HARASSMENT THAT MY FAMILY HAS RECEIVED.

>> TALK ABOUT THAT, IF YOU WOULD.

WHAT IS THE -- WHAT IS THE ARGUMENT OF THIS DEFAMATION SUIT, WHICH I THINK YOU FILED IN MAY?

WHAT IS THE UNDERLYING ALLEGATION IN THE COMPLAINT?

>> SURE, SO, ACROSS FOX NEWS PROGRAMS FOR MANY MONTHS AFTER I RESIGNED, FOX NEWS PERSONALITIES LIED ABOUT ME AND MY BODY OF WORK.

THEY LIED ABOUT STATEMENTS THAT I WAS ALLEGED TO HAVE MADE AND DID ABSOLUTELY NO FACT-CHECKING WHERE THEY COULD HAVE PROVED THAT I DID INDEED NOT SAY THOSE THINGS.

AND THEY LIED ABOUT ME BEING FIRED WHEN, IN FACT, I RESIGNED, AND LIED ABOUT MY INTENTION IN JOINING THE GOVERNMENT.

AND, AGAIN, THIS HAS LED PEOPLE TO MAKE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST ME LUKE I COMMITTED TREASON, LIKE I WAS GOING AGAINST THE U.S. CONSTITUTION, THAT HAVE LED TO THINGS LIKE THIS STALKER, THAT HAVE LED TO ENORMOUS PROFESSIONAL CONSEQUENCES FOR ME, AS WELL, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT MANY OF THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO DO IN ATTACKING RESEARCHERS AND GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES WHO ARE TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING THAT I DID, STANDING UP FOR DEMOCRACY AND STANDING UP FOR THE TRUTH.

>> SO, THEY MAKE YOU CONTROVERSIAL AND THAT BECOMES AN EXCUSE FOR PEOPLE TO MAKE YOU UNTOUCHABLE, BECAUSE YOU ARE CONTROVERSIAL, EVEN THOUGH CONTROVERSY IS INVENTED TO BEGIN WITH.

>> YEAH, YEAH, THAT'S EXACTLY IT.

AND I'M HAPPY TO SAY, YOU KNOW, I'VE RISEN ABOVE THAT AND I'VE BEEN SURROUNDED BY GREAT FAMILY AND FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES WHO HAVE STOOD BY ME DURING ALL OF THIS, BUT I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, IT WOULD BE MUCH EASIER TO THROW IN THE TOWEL AND SAY, WHY RESEARCH THIS STUFF, I'M JUST GOING TO GO LIVE IN THE WOODS SOMEWHERE.

I'M DETERMINED NOT TO LET THAT HAPPEN, BUT I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THAT MIGHT JUST BE A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

AND CERTAINLY FOR CIVIL SERVANTS WHO MIGHT BE ON THE OTHER END OF LAWSUITS AND INVESTIGATIONS LIKE THIS, THEY DON'T WANT TO RISK THEIR CAREER, THEY DON'T WANT TO RISK THEIR LIVELIHOOD, THEY DON'T WANT TO RACE THEIR FAMILY'S SAFETY IN ORDER TO DO THIS WORK.

AND THAT'S THE CALCULATION.

>> YOU FILED A DEFAMATION LAWSUIT AGAINST FOX IN MAY, AND LAST MONTH, FOX NEWS FILED A MOTION TO DISMISS YOUR LAWSUIT STATING THAT, QUOTE, HOSTS AND GUESTS ON FOX EXERCISE THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS TO JOIN THE PUBLIC DEBATE AND VOICED THEIR OPINIONS AND PREDICTIONS THAT THE BOARD AND PLAINTIFF WOULD BE ARBITERS OF TRUTH AND CENSOR SPEECH.

THEY CALLED THE LAWSUIT A BROADSIDE ATTACK ON BEDROCK FIRST AMENDMENT PRINCIPLES.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO ARGUE THAT HERE, THAT'S WHAT COURTS ARE FOR.

SO, LET ME TURN TO THE REASON WE ASKED YOU TO JOIN US TODAY.

A NEWS EVENT.

LAST WEEK, A FEDERAL JUDGE IMPOSED AN INJUNCTION ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, RESTRICTING ITS ABILITY TO WORK WITH SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES ENCOUNTERING ONLINE CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND IT NAMED SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS THAT THEY SAY CANNOT MEET WITH THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES.

AND WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT AT LEAST ONE HIGH-LEVEL CONSULTATION WAS CANCELED AS A RESULT OF THIS.

COULD YOU JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT LED UP TO THIS INJUNCTION?

>> SURE.

WELL, I THINK, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THIS IS PART OF A BROADER CAMPAIGN TO INTIMIDATE DISINFORMATION RESEARCH AND COUNTER DISINFORMATION WORK IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND IN GOVERNMENT-ADJACENT AREAS, THE PUBLIC SECTOR, RESEARCH INSTITUTIONS, AHEAD OF THE 2024 ELECTION.

I ACTUALLY WAS NAMED IN THE LAWSUIT, IN MY OFFICIAL CAPACITY, WHEN IT WAS FIRST FILED LAST MAY, IN MAY 2022 AND I WAS REMOVED AFTER I RESIGNED.

HOWEVER, I WAS INCLUDED ON THE BASIS OF THOSE FALSE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT THE BOARD, THAT THE BOARD WAS MEANT TO CENSOR AMERICANS, AND THE FACT THAT I WAS INCLUDED, I THINK, SPEAKS TO THE ABSURDITY AND THE LACK OF SUBSTANCE BEHIND THIS LAWSUIT.

THIS LAWSUIT WOULD HAVE EVERYONE BELIEVE THAT ANY COOPERATION, ANY COMMUNICATION BETWEEN SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS AND THE GOVERNMENT AMOUNTS TO CENSORSHIP, BUT THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING, IN MANY CASES, WHEN IT IS FLAGGING CONTENT, IS FLAGGING CONTENT THAT IS ALREADY VIOLATING SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES' TERMS OF SERVICE.

WE MIGHT LIKE TO THINK THEY ARE FREE SPEECH ZONES, BUT WE SIGN UP TO RULES WHEN WE SIGN UP FOR THESE WEBSITES.

AND THOSE MIGHT BE RULES AGAINST DISINFORMATION, THEY MIGHT BE RULES AGAINST HATE SPEECH, CHILD TRAFFICKING, SEXUAL ABUSE MATERIAL, WHAT HAVE YOU.

WE SIGN UP TO THOSE RULES.

AND THE GOVERNMENT THEN, IF THEY FIND INSTANCES OF THAT CONTENT, THEY SEND IT TO THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES.

THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES ARE UNDER NO BURDEN TO ACTUALLY ACT ON THOSE REQUESTS, AND IN MANY CASES, BASED ON A STUDY CONDUCTED BY STANFORD UNIVERSITY, IN ABOUT 35% OF THOSE CASES, THEY TOOK ACTION, THE OTHER 65%, THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.

AND A LOT OF TIMES, THE ACTION THAT THEY DID TAKE WAS JUST ADDING CONTEXT, NOT REMOVING THE CONTENT ITSELF.

SO, I THINK, AGAIN, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT COMMUNICATING BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES DOES NOT AMOUNT TO CENSORSHIP, AND FRANKLY, THE GOVERNMENT HAS A RIGHT TO COMMUNICATE ABOUT ITS POLICIES AND A DUTY TO PROTECT THE NATION, TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRATIC INFRASTRUCTURE, TO PROTECT PUBLIC HEALTH AND PUBLIC SAFETY, AND SOMETIMES THAT AMOUNTS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES SPEAKING TO SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS AND SAYING, HEY, WE SEE A PROBLEM ON YOUR WEBSITE HERE.

>> IS THERE AN ANALOGY YOU COULD DRAW FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS ARE BEING HAD?

BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT SAY, GEE, I'M UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA OF THE GOVERNMENT JOB OWNING THESE COMPANIES TO TELL THEM KIND OF WHAT TO DO.

SO, IS THERE AN ANALOGY THAT YOU COULD DRAW THAT MIGHT MAKE SENSE TO THE AVERAGE CITIZEN?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I CAN GIVE YOU A CONCRETE EXAMPLE FROM THE 2020 ELECTION.

SO, IN 2020, WHEN THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT REALIZED IT HAD TO KIND OF CHANGE HOW IT WAS DOING ITS MESSAGING AND INFLUENCE OPERATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES AHEAD OF THE ELECTION, BECAUSE WE ALL GOT A LITTLE BIT MORE AWARE, RIGHT, THAT THIS SORT OF THING WAS HAPPENING, WHAT THEY DECIDED TO DO WAS HIRE AMERICAN JOURNALISTS WHO WERE TOTALLY UNWITTING, TO WRITE STORIES THAT WERE CRITICAL OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

AND THEY FILED THEM UNDER THIS OUTLET CALLED PEACE DATA.

THE FBI FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS AND THEY TIPPED OFF TWITTER AND FACEBOOK AND SAID, HEY, WE'VE GOT THE INTERNET RESEARCH AGENCY, THAT INFAMOUS RUSSIAN TROLL FARM, THEY ARE PAYING AMERICAN JOURNALISTS TO DO THIS SORT OF INFLUENCE OPERATION.

WE THINK THIS MIGHT GO AGAINST YOUR TERMS OF SERVICE IN TERMS OF ELECTION INTERFERENCE.

AND THAT OPERATION WAS REALLY DIFFUSED BEFORE IT GOT OFF THE GROUND.

AND THAT WAS A GOOD THING FOR OUR ELECTIONS.

NOW, THE JUDGE IN THIS CASE HAS MADE SOME EXCEPTIONS FOR WHAT HE SAYS ARE ELECTION INTERFERENCE AND OTHER CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES, BUT HERE'S MY WORRY, KNOWING HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS, HAVING BEEN IN GOVERNMENT FOR A BIT MYSELF.

CIVIL SERVANTS ON THE OTHER END OF THIS INJUNCTION FINDING SOMETHING LIKE THE PEACE DATA OPERATION, WILL EITHER HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH A TON OF HOOPS TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES, THEREBY SLOWING IT DOWN, WHEN WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO WASTE IN A CONTENTIOUS ELECTION CYCLE, OR THEY WON'T MAKE THAT CONTACT AT ALL.

BECAUSE AS I SAID, THE POSSIBILITY THAT THEY MIGHT GET HIT WITH A LAWSUIT OR INVESTIGATION OR BECOME THE APEX OF A HARASSMENT CAMPAIGN, I MEAN, THOSE ARE REALLY HEAVY THINGS TO WEIGH FOR WORKING-LEVEL INDIVIDUALS.

AND SO, THIS IS REALLY PUTTING THE BRAKES ON A LOT OF IMPORTANT WORK THAT'S GOING TO BE HAPPENING IN THE NAME OF TRUTH AHEAD OF THE 2024 ELECTION.

>> THE INJUNCTION ALSO PROHIBITS GOVERNMENT AGENCIES FROM COLLABORATING WITH SOMETHING CALLED THE ELECTION INTEGRITY PARTNERSHIP, AND THAT'S AN ALLIANCE OF RESEARCHERS AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY AND THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON.

WHY ARE THEY NAMED IN THE LAWSUIT?

>> WELL, THESE PARTICULAR RESEARCH ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN IN THE NEXUS OF A LOT OF CONSPIRACY THEORISTS FOR ALSO QUOTE UNQUOTE ENGAGING IN CENSORSHIP, WHEN ALL THEY DO IS ENGAGE IN OPEN SOURCE RESEARCH.

AGAIN, SOMETIMES FLAGGING UP TO THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES CONTENT THAT MIGHT DISSUADE PEOPLE FROM GOING TO VOTE, CONTENT THAT MIGHT TELL THEM DIFFERENT OR INCORRECT INFORMATION ABOUT WHEN TO VOTE.

ALL STUFF THAT WE SHOULD NOT WANT ON THE INTERNET, RIGHT?

AND YET THEY HAVE COME IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF MANY ON THE FAIR RIGHT IN PARTICULAR, BECAUSE THEY CALL OUT THE DISINFORMATION COMING FROM THAT SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

AND FRANKLY, THERE'S DISINFORMATION COMING FROM ALL SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, AND I WOULD CALL THEM PRETTY EQUAL OPPORTUNITY IN CALLING THAT ALL OUT, BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE IN OUR POLITICAL CLASS RIGHT NOW WHO DON'T WANT ANY SCRUTINY ON THEM.

AND THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON, STANFORD, THESE BRILLIANT RESEARCHER THERE, WHO, I MIGHT ADD, THEY ARE LED BY, IN MOST PART, WOMEN, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S A COINCIDENCE THAT THEY ARE BEING CALLED OUT.

THESE WOMEN ARE DOING REALLY IMPORTANT WORK FOR OUR DEMOCRACY, AND THE IDEA THERE IN CALLING THEM OUT IN THIS INJUNCTION IS TO MAKE SURE THAT, AGAIN, THEY'RE MADE TOXIC, THEY ARE DROWNING IN PAPERWORK, AND NOT ABLE TO COLLABORATE WITH GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS AND OTHER INSTITUTIONS IN THIS SPACE IN ORDER TO DO THIS IMPORTANT WORK.

>> WHAT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT, THOUGH, YOU SAID, LOOK, DISINFORMATION HAS, YOU KNOW, EVEN BY THE FAKE FOREIGN ACTORS LIKE THE RUSSIANS, DISINFORMATION WAS DIRECTED AT BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, SO -- IF PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES COULD BE ATTACKED IN THIS WAY, WHAT'S GOOD ABOUT IT?

WHY DOES THIS -- WHY ISN'T THERE SHARED SOCIAL INTEREST IN ADDRESSING THIS IN A CONSTRUCTIVE WAY?

I GUESS THAT'S WHAT I'M CONFUSED BY.

>> I'M CONFUSED IT BY, TOO.

I HAVE SAID IN EVERY CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY I'VE DONE, INCLUDING IN THE DEPOSITION THAT I DID IN APRIL THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS DOESN'T BENEFIT ANYBODY.

IT IS UN-AMERICAN.

AND FRANKLY, DISINFORMATION DOESN'T KNOW A POLITICAL PARTY.

ULTIMATELY, THE VICTIM IS OUR DEMOCRACY.

BUT I THINK WHAT MOTIVATES THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEKING TO UNDERMINE, TO SILENCE, TO INTIMIDATE PEOPLE LIKE ME, PEOPLE LIKE MY FORMER COLLEAGUES IN GOVERNMENT, PEOPLE LIKE MY COLLEAGUES AT STANFORD AND THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON, IS THAT IT REALLY GETS THEM POPULAR SUPPORT WHEN THEY HAVE AN ENEMY TO MOBILIZE AGAINST.

AND I KNOW VERY, VERY INTIMATELY WHAT THAT IS LIKE ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.

AND AGAIN, THERE'S JUST NO REGARD FOR INDIVIDUAL'S HUMANITY HERE.

BECAUSE IT PLAYS REALLY WELL WITH THE BASE, AND IT SHORES UP THEIR POWER FOR THE NEXT ELECTION CYCLE.

AND I THINK THAT IS, AGAIN, A REALLY FRIGHTENING PROSPECT FOR THE UNITED STATES, AS WE HEAD INTO THIS ELECTION SEASON.

>> I DO WANT TO MENTION THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS APPEALED THE JUDGE'S DECISION, THIS INJUNCTION, BUT WHAT ARE YOU MOST WORRIED ABOUT GOING FORWARD?

>> WELL, THE LEGAL SYSTEM TAKES A LONG TIME, RIGHT?

SO, I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THIS PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION WILL BE UPHELD WHILE THE JUDGE ON THE FIFTH CIRCUIT DECIDES WHETHER OR NOT TO NARROW THE SCOPE OF THE INJUNCTION, TO OVERTURN IT ALTOGETHER OR TO UPHOLD IT, AND AS THAT HAPPENS, WE'RE GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE ELECTION, BUT MORE BROADLY, I'M REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THE DISCOURSE IN THE COUNTRY, AGAIN, THAT INDIVIDUALS ARE BEINGVILLE NICED FOR DOING THEIR JOBS.

FOR, YOU KNOW, PURSING ACADEMIC RESEARCH, IN SOME CASES, AND I'M SORRIES THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE DISSUADED, PARTICULARLY, YOU KNOW, WOMEN, PEOPLE OF COLOR, WHO ARE GOING TO BE DISSUADED FROM PUBLIC SERVICE, WHO ARE GOING TO BE DISSUADED FROM PURSUING CAREERS IN PUBLIC LIFE, BECAUSE OF THIS WEAPONIZATION OF HATRED, THE POLITICIZATION OF, YOU KNOW, BASIC FACTS THAT CAN COME FROM ANYBODY AT ANY TIME.

AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY BALD FOR OUR DEMOCRACY.

WE SHOULD WANT, YOU KNOW, A DISCOURSE AND A GOVERNMENT THAT IS BROADLY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE POPULATION AND THAT, YOU KNOW, REPRESENTS MOSTLY DIVERSE VIEWS.

AND INSTEAD WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS REALLY A QUASHING OF ANY SORT OF CRITIQUE AND DISSENT AND PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVING TO MAKE REALLY DIFFICULT CALCULATIONS ABOUT THEIR SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF THEIR LOVED ONES SIMPLY FOR DOING THEIR JOB.

>> AND, OF COURSE, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO, ON THE RIGHT WHO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS BEING DONE TO THEM.

I MEAN, THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE BEING KIND OF VILIFIED AND DEMONIZED AND -- FOR EXPRESSING THEIR BELIEFS ABOUT GENDER, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT BOOKS SHOULD BE TAUGHT.

HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THAT?

HOW DO YOU PUT THOSE THOUGHTS TOGETHER?

>> I ALWAYS SAY THAT WE SHOULDN'T ENDORSE THAT SORT OF BEHAVIOR, NO MATTER WHO IS EXPRESSING THEMSELVES, NO MATTER WHAT POLITICAL OPINION PEOPLE HAVE.

I WOULDN'T WANT ANYONE ON THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH WHAT ME AND MY FAMILY HAVE GONE THROUGH, AND I REALLY SINCERELY MEAN THAT.

I THINK WE ALL NEED TO TONE IT DOWN A LITTLE BIT, AND TO RECOGNIZE THAT THERE ARE WAYS TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THOSE DEEPLY AND TRULY HELD BELIEFS, WITHOUT MAKING THREATS, WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, JUST SLINGING VITRIOL.

THAT'S NOT WHAT AMERICA IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.

AND ULTIMATELY, I DO BELIEVE THAT OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO SET THE TENOR OF THAT DISCOURSE.

AND TOO OFTEN LATELY WE HAVE SEEN OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS SETTING THE DISCOURSE IN A VERY WORRISOME DIRECTION.

>> YOU'VE DESCRIBED A VERY DISTURBING SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES AND POTENTIAL THREATS.

IS THERE ANYTHING GIVING YOU HOPE IN THIS MOMENT?

>> I INTEND TO KEEP DOING THIS WORK, AND I KNOW MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES IN THIS SPHERE FEEL THE SAME WAY.

THIS IS TOO IMPORTANT TO THROW IN THE TOWEL ON.

AND I'M NOT SURE HOW THINGS COULD GET WORSE, SO WE ALL HOPE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE BETTER AND WE INTEND TO KEEP SPEAKING OUR TRUTH TO KEEP DOING THE RESEARCH AND SHOWING OUR WORK, THAT SHOWS HOW THESE DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS WORK, AND TO ATTEMPT TO PUT THE PIECES BACK TOGETHER.

UNFORTUNATELY, GOVERNMENT KIND OF HAS ITS HANDS TIED RIGHT NOW, AND WE'RE SEEING SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES ROLLING BACK THEIR POLICIES WITH REGARD TO THE U.S. ELECTION, BUT CIVIL SOCIETY AND ACTIVISTS IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH, SO, BETWEEN THE CIVIL SOCIETY FOLKS AND THE JOURNALISTS, I THINK WE CAN CONTINUE TO UPHOLD THE TRUTH NOW AND IN THE YEARS TO COME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE.