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>> Good evening and thank you for watching us tonight here on PBS .

For Wayne the name of our show is LIFE Ahead Sandy Thomson.

>> But the real stars are sitting over here and I'm going to introduce you to them in just a moment.

We're going to be Chongqing tonight about a variety of things but we're going to focus on grief, hospice and estate planning and kind of combining all of that and and giving you some ideas on how to handle that.

>> Now we also want to encourage you to call us with questions because this is really your show.

>> I'm just sitting here asking questions and you call in so please give us a call if you are comfortable, we'd love for you to talk live on the air with us that way if our guests have questions back, you're right there to answer them.

But if you're not comfortable with that, that's OK. We do have a phone operator in the control room that will take your question and type it up on the teleprompter and send it out here to me so I can ask them.

>> All right.

Let's meet our guests this evening.

I don't have to introduce much anymore the person on the far end.

>> This is Jessica Thorson.

We were just trying to figure out, Jessica, how many times you've been on this show and we're in the way double digits way double digits.

>> It's been a few times a year for at least ten years.

Wow.

Yeah.

And people around town know her already.

>> So say hi Jessica if you're in the grocery, Jessica is an elder law attorney so she's here to handle any legal questions that you might have and we do have a grief counselor here, a specialist in that area and that's Laura Guerrero.

>> I'm so glad you're here because I had a lot of questions before the show even started and I think people will be very interested in your input, Laura.

>> Definitely and I'm happy to be here.

All right.

Well, let's start talking about grief.

>> What factors enter in to how we grieve, Laura?

>> I mean you are an expert in this field and you I'm sure everybody's different but what factors usually influence how people grieve?

>> Absolutely.

It's so unique to each individual and there can be a multitude of factors that impact any individual's grief journey.

One thing to consider is the nature of the relationship.

A spousal relationship is different than between a brother and sister friends so it's just a different bond, a different kind of love but also with that nature of relationship looking at was the relationship healthy and loving or was that a conflicted or distant relationship in some way that can definitely add some different layers in there for people and what their grief looks and feels like?

>> Sure.

Another thing to consider is the circumstances of the loss.

>> What do you mean by that?

So we and our community we see on the news every day losing members of our community from suicide, homicide overdose OK and a lot of trauma involved in those situations.

That's a different type of grief.

Absolutely.

Often a surprise grief.

Absolutely not having any time to even know that this was around the corner preparing themselves mentally, emotionally so the circumstances can definitely influence the way that grief looks and feels.

Another thing to consider is past losses that someone has experienced a lot of times when we're experiencing a loss presently it can bring up losses that maybe we went through years ago and I mean bring up the feelings of pain once from that previous loss.

It can be it can be I felt this way before almost like a sense of deja vu.

Like I said, I remember feeling a similar way to this even though the grief journey is unique for each person and for some people they have um process grief.

Maybe they didn't do grief work earlier on and that kind of comes to the surface with a present loss.

So it can definitely be another one of those factors that influences what our grief looks and feels like.

>> Wow.

It's very complicated obviously and we're going to continue this discussion.

>> I want to turn it over to you though as our legal advisor here, Jessica, I think a lot of people think that as soon as someone passes the first thing they need to do is call an attorney and start handling things and taking care of issues.

Yes, no why so we do get a lot of those calls.

>> Elder law attorneys feel those all the time because people just are so task oriented and they need to feel like they need to do something because it is so hard to overwhelming sometimes to process that grief.

And so sometimes there are very legitimate questions of I have no idea where to plan the funeral.

>> Do you have any information about my mom or dad's funeral that you could share with me?

Maybe it's I'm not sure who should be planning this funeral.

I don't know who was listed in the documents to handle those type of things.

And so sometimes those questions are related to the funeral and some things that need to be handled right away.

But oftentimes when we're talking about finances and we're talking about maybe dealing with the estate, those things can wait until after you have kind of handled the funeral, maybe spent some time together as a family.

Give yourself a little bit of breathing room the bills are going to wait.

There is there is a process for which we need to go through but that doesn't have to happen the day somebody passes away or even the day after.

So let's answer the questions that we've got about maybe the funeral and other things and then kind of put the other things on hold until we've had a little bit of time to process .

>> That's obviously very good.

Very good recommendation.

Would you say an attorney a person's attorney typically would have answers to some of those things like planning the funeral or what should I do for second or whatever would you be able to guide them?

>> It will depend on if we already had a relationship with that particular OK and so if we have had a relationship with that particular individual then more than likely we'll have some talk about it.

>> Maybe I won't know what songs they want played at the funeral or what type of celebration of life they would like to have.

>> But maybe I at least know where the arrangements are and what funeral home or what cemetery they would like to use.

Yeah, but I may not have all of the details so I may have some if I've never had a relationship with that individual my questions are going to be my answers to those questions are going to be very, very general.

Unfortunately because I won't be able to say specifically what your mom or dad or your sibling wanted who can help?

>> I mean who can help somebody or ask you first if someone passes away and they don't know where to begin to handle things or what to do or what would you do to guide them?

>> So is there a place to go?

Is there somebody to help?

Absolutely.

If they've had connection we mentioned talking about hospice earlier if they've had a connection with hospice staff, especially social workers could be a great resource for them guiding them in some different directions as far as planning goes, Attorney Yes, of course you could step in with some of the other aspects but I think having connection with hospice you already have this team built in.

Right?

You can have some of these steps taken care of ahead of time which is a huge benefit to being on service because hospice would entail like a team not just your medical doctor but what else is involved with hospice and you have your physician nurses aides, chaplains usually non-denominational chaplains, a majority of hospices that encompass a lot of different faiths, social workers, some of music therapists, massage therapists and so it's really an umbrella to provide support and care not only to the individual on service but the entire family as well.

>> That makes sense to Jessica as far as legally, what kinds of things should they have in place if they well let's see how can we put this if someone knows that they have a chronic or terminal illness, whether they have a month or five years or whatever, what should they be doing to take care of things legally?

>> They should make sure that they have power of attorney documents.

And so first I look at whether or not they have a durable power of attorney, which is something that is going to designate somebody to make financial decisions for you but not just general financial decisions of going to the bank and writing a check out of your checking account.

It's any type of business financial transaction so maybe it's dealing with the insurance insurance claims as far as medical insurance or other homeowner's insurance I mean any type of thing in that nature right.

It may also just be getting information maybe you know that they've planned their funeral but you don't know where and the funeral home wants to see the power of attorney before they'll release any information to you.

So durabl power of attorney to handle all those business transactions.

Well, you you are dealing with the last days of your life .

The other thing is an appointment of a health care representative.

This is a document that's going to allow somebody to make medical decisions for you so you can still certainly make your own decisions but you may need to have support if you get to a point where you don't understand the treatment plan anymore and you need to have that umbrella of people who are helping you kind of know who to talk to if you can't vocalize what it is that you want anymore so that they can continue carrying out that plan and then oh go ahead.

>> I was going to the other thing I would say is a will or trust or some sort of some sort of document that says where you want your assets to go should you pass away or when you pass away.

And so there are lots of different ways to handle that.

Sometimes it's a will, sometimes it's a trust, sometimes it's beneficiary designations.

And so when you meet with that attorney you're not only talking about what happens when I am incapacitated in those final days, weeks, months but then also what happens when I am gone.

>> What about the person say you've name somebody is your power of attorney to take care of all the finances?

>> Can you name the same person to be your health care representative or can you name two people for each of those positions?

>> Yes to both really?

Yes.

So it all depends on your family makeup.

So this is a lot of things that we will talk about at length just as when you're talking with the social worker or a grief counselor, you're going to kind of try to talk about the family makeup so that you can kind of anticipate who is going to be best to make those decisions.

Sometimes it is you've got two kids and you're going to name them as co people because they work great together and they can handle financial and medical decisions other times if you've got two kids maybe one is great at money but was going to fall apart when it comes to making a medical decision.

Yeah, so you've got to name one in each role or maybe you just want to divide up the work.

It really does depend on your family structure so it's good to have a conversation with your attorney.

It's good to have a conversation with the hospice provider so that you can kind of figure out who best is going to be, you know, these pieces on your team.

>> Oh, let me ask this.

Is this a conversation you should have say with those children that you've named as your health care representative or your power of attorney or are you going to wait until and then be surprised when the will is read or what?

I mean I'm a big proponent of planning early.

Yeah.

So I think it causes a lot less stress.

I think it makes things a lot easier for people to make decisions quickly.

They're not second guessing themselves.

So the more open conversations you have people aren't wondering if they made the right decision for their if they made the right decision for their dad because they've had these conversations.

And so I know they are really hard to have but it is really important and I'm guessing and or you can tell me if I'm correct or not that if you if you've talked with your children and you've named them you know, one of those positions or both of those positions, it's maybe a good idea to tell them and then give them the opportunity to talk to mom or whomever is in that terminal situation so they can really make their needs known.

>> Would you would you say that happens or no?

Absolutely.

I think it's definitely helpful for families when they're able to talk about whether it's details with the funeral or just things that they're going to have to finalize with the estate if they're proactive and have those conversations ahead of time, there's less uncertainty about what wishes were or may be like with kids having different opinions on what would be best.

So I think it can just clarify a lot of confusion and just make people feel more confident in the decision that they do have to make because there are so many decisions that have to be made and so many different agencies that have to be contacted following a loss.

And so anything that can alleviate some stress I think is extremely beneficial.

>> Well, in in my experience and people that I've talked I've also heard that sometimes if if they don't make all those things very, very clear in somebody making the decisions that later after the funeral is over and whatever, then that person who is making the decisions for mom feels guilty because she wasn't quite sure that that's what mom wanted.

>> Is that case sometimes?

Absolutely.

And I think you use the word exactly you know it can intensify feelings of guilt.

Sure.

Or second guessing, you know, did I do the best that I could and honoring mom was this what she would have wanted?

So yeah, guilt, guilt and anger can be two huge ones in addition to sadness that people struggle with throughout their grief journey, they're not the most comfortable emotions to sit with.

So yes, definitely feelings of guilt can come up if your second guessing right was done and if you've had this conversation with mom, you don't have to guess you know, that's what she wanted and you can explain that to the rest of the family or other people.

>> This is what Mom wanted, you know.

Exactly.

OK, just like get back to legal stuff, everything gets back to legal.

>> Yes.

So say you are planning your estate whether we're talking ill or not but you're making plans to settle your estate if you will or plan what to do with your estate.

Jessica, how soon should I see the attorney and then what do I need what do I need to take to you if I'm going to come and talk to you for a first appointment?

>> So if if we're starting the stages of planning, whether it's you've just gotten this diagnosis or you're a thriving twenty five year old wanting to come to my office, yeah.

We really need to know kind of who is in your family?

Are you married?

Are you do you have children who are you wanting to leave things to tell me a little bit about who those individuals are in the sense are they adults?

Are they minors or do they have a disability?

We kind of want to know those type of things so that we can plan accordingly.

Sure.

And having a great list of your assets is isn't it a key thing just kind of getting yourself organized of knowing what you own is really important.

I can tell you even personally I have sometimes not kept that list up to date and so you will forget some things.

And so we always we're talking about estate planning.

We want to make sure that we have that good list so that we know where everything is going to flow should something happen to you or if somebody is acting on your behalf when you're incapacitated.

>> We want to make sure that we've covered all of you know, we didn't forget, you know, where all of these things we know are all the things are you know, three years later you don't find out that hey, dad owned a little piece of property up at the lake, you know, something like that.

>> Yeah, OK, don't forget you can give us a call with the questions that you have as well.

>> OK, let's talk about support systems and Laura back to you with that.

I know as a grief counselor and with the ear organization you provide a lot of opportunities to help people before there's a death and after.

>> Could you speak about those kind of opportunities that are available in the community?

Absolutely.

So I think something that people don't always understand is that when there is a diagnosis that grief journey can begin from that point even your loved one is still here and that can be challenging for others to wrap their their heads and their hearts around.

But that grief journey started and so those individuals need support and maybe even the person given the diagnosis could use some support.

>> Yeah, they're dealing with the long term.

So exactly.

You counsel people that have been given the diagnosis if you will?

Absolutely.

Yes.

Through hospice primarily social workers we'll do a lot of the anticipatory grief work with the families or the proprietary grief work that the patient on service is experiencing.

But we've definitely met with others in the community as well that maybe aren't attached currently to hospice.

>> Maybe their disease hasn't progressed to that point but definitely acknowledging that that's a real part of the grief journey and following a loss.

Our community actually has a lot of different resources available just looking online you can find different support groups.

There are churches that offer programs as well.

So really just taking advantage of what's already built in here and you know a lot places offer individual counseling to for people that aren't comfortable in a group setting.

So really just trying to find what's the best fit for each person and it's such a good idea to to seek that kind of support.

>> You know, I mean at the beginning after a person passes away there's all the activity and the funeral home and viewing and people coming in from out of town and there's just so much going on and then eventually everybody goes back home and then you're alone and you have a totally dealt with your grief.

Yet we have a call that just came in here and this is from Margaret and Margaret says that the person owns real estate and they're on Medicaid, Medicare, Medicaid.

>> What happens to the proceeds?

OK, just pick up that story.

Of course that's a good question.

So Margaret, when it comes to Medicaid, Medicaid does have what we can call a state recovery .

So if you still own the property at the time of your passing, it could be subject to a Medicaid lean.

It's something that I really recommend people talk to an elder law attorney about because there are ways to maybe protect the funds if you still have it at the time of your passing.

There are also ways to maybe protect those proceeds if you sell it while you are alive and on Medicaid.

So it's really important to get to an attorney to talk about what your options are.

There are things available to you so the sooner you talk to somebody the better and I really recommend that you do it while you still own the property before you actually complete that sale.

>> All right.

Good advice and Margaret, thank you so much for watching Mills watching also and he has a question for us as well.

>> Bill says If you have a relative who has passed and their name is on the House, how do you remove it?

Another legal question, Jessica .

>> So Bill, that will depend on how the deed is set up currently.

So when it comes to real property, there are several ways that you can own it.

One way is what we call a joint with Right to Survivor hip joint with right to survivorship really truly means that the survivor is going to own it when that person passes away.

There is a way to then remove that person's name from maybe the tax bill and on the recorder's office it's an affidavit that's required.

However, if the deed is set up where it says the words tenants in common, that means that that person owned a piece of that property a percentage of it some percentage maybe it's equally maybe it's 50 percent, maybe it's a quarter.

It just depends on how many people are listed on that deed.

If you have the words tenants in common, that means that that person's estate is going to control how that is then given to the next person.

So may not default to the other owners listed on the deed if there will doesn't say that.

So I would really recommend that you take the deed to an attorney, have them review it to make sure those which words are on that deed so that they know how to proceed with getting the property into your name or to remove that one person's name off of the deed.

>> OK, so the first step is is get some legal help in in removing the name you talked about going to do you say recorder's office?

>> Yeah.

So the recorder's office is is really just to record deeds.

They do not give legal advice and so you can get a copy of the deed there so that you know you can't find it you can't have it.

>> Yep.

That's why I believe you'd go to the recorder's office to get a copy of that deed.

>> Yeah I mean most people don't have that was just like in their desk drawer you know offhand probably especially if they purchased it years and years ago.

>> And so what words are on that deed or so important right to survivorship or tenants and comment because it has completely different legal meanings and so the attorney can advise you on what to do from there once they have seen kind of how that set up?

>> Well, those are some of the complicated things that you can get into because there often is joint ownership whether it's a house or a car or some other kind of material asset.

OK, I want to talk to Laura again here in terms of how to cope during holidays.

>> We have those coming up and those present oftentimes a whole different ball game of issues.

>> How can you advise people to find coping mechanisms for holidays whether it's, you know, the end of the year holidays or the middle of the summer and thank you for mentioning that because when we talk about how to cope with the holidays or special days, it's not just this time of year Thanksgiving, Christmas.

>> You know, Mother's Day can be a really hard day for sure people or their loved one's birthday or anniversary those special days.

So one of the things we like to talk about with any holiday is expectations and these can be expectations that we place on ourself or maybe that we feel like others have placed on us.

Sure do I have to do everything the same as I have in years past?

And so we encourage people with expectations to try and be realistic about what is possible for this year and it might not be everything that is possible in years past.

>> Sure.

And also giving themselves permission to say yes and no.

So saying yes to delegation help from others accepting that but then also giving themselves permission to say no if there are things that they feel like just aren't going to work for them this year giving themselves permission to put up that boundary.

>> Yeah, I mean maybe they've always been the the home that hosted, you know, Christmas dinner or July 4th festivities.

>> It's OK to say, you know, I'm not really up to that.

Can somebody else in the family take care of that sort of thing?

>> And that actually that's a perfect segue into traditions that we have with the holidays and yes, maybe it was been tradition in the past to always hold something at a certain person's home and maybe this year that needs to be adjusted.

Maybe that's not possible.

Maybe it's the person that had their spouse passed away and they just don't feel I'm just not up to everyone.

>> So we encourage people with grief counseling, with these traditions evaluate why am I doing this?

Am I doing this because it's meaningful?

Am I doing this out of habit?

We've just always done it this way or am I doing it out of obligation?

>> I feel like I have to right.

Right.

And you know, thus the competing emotions for you as other members of the family.

>> Jessica, where do I keep my will and who do I need to tell where it is?

>> So a lot of attorneys will offer the service to keep the will at their office because if you lose your will it is presumed revoked and so a lot of people yes.

>> So a lot of people get nervous about keeping it at their house because people misplace things, things get spilled on it, all kinds of stuff and so if you feel comfortable you should certainly keep it at your house but keep it kind of in a locked box type of thing.

Some people do use a safety deposit box but that can get tricky after you pass away.

There are some if they don't if the person that you have designated to take care of your will doesn't have access to safety deposit box, it can be very tricky to get access to that and actually get the document out of the safety deposit box.

>> If you're open with your family about what you have in your will, would it be acceptable to give your children or whomever a copy of that will in advance?

>> It will depend on the family situation and so I say that just cautiously because it really will depend I generally most attorneys generally are not going to advise you give a signed copy to to your family members.

Maybe it's one that's marked that you signed it on such and such a date.

So they know that this is the most recent copy but very cautious about about giving signed copies of your will out before you pass away.

>> All right.

That's good legal advice for sure.

Well, we certainly have had a lot to talk about here tonight and and there's much more to deal with when we talk about grief, hospice and estate planning and hopefully you two will come back someday and we'll continue this conversation.

Jessica and Laura, thank you so much for being here and spending the time with us on this evening here on PBS .

>> Meanwhile, the rest of you don't forget to watch us next Wednesday night at seven thirty .

We'll be right here.

Different topic, different guests.

I'll be here.

See you then.