- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, an all too familiar scene at a Nashville, Tennessee private school, where six have been killed.

Conversations turn back to gun control but little has changed on Capitol Hill.

- So why not limit the AR-15s?

Why not put a ban on that?

- If you're gonna talk about the AR-15, you're talking politics now.

Let's not get into politics, all right?

Let's not get into emotion, because emotion feels good, but emotion doesn't solve problems.

- And breaking news, just last night, Donald Trump has been indicted.

We'll get our panel's take on it a little later in the show.

Don't go away, we'll be right back.

- [Advertiser] Black Issues Forum is a production of PBS North Carolina, with support from the Z Smith Reynolds Foundation.

Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

130, that's how many mass shootings we've had this year.

That includes the most recent shooting at a school, that happened in Nashville, Tennessee, at a private Presbyterian school, where 28 year old Audrey Hale, who goes by the pronouns he, him, killed three nine year olds and three adults.

Hale was eventually found and killed by officers.

Questions around gun control resurface, and to talk about it, we welcome to the show, North Carolina Senator, Natalie Murdoch, North Carolina Central University Professor, Brett Chambers, and student organizer, and co-founder of Young Americans Protest, Greer Webb.

Welcome to the show.

There's a lot to talk about.

The clip that was shown earlier was one of the many politicians on the hill throughout the country, who have said that this gun issue is not a political issue.

I want to get straight to it.

Natalie, is this a political issue or is this not?

- It's completely a political issue.

We have really seen a lot of my colleagues right here in North Carolina and conservatives in general, are more beholden to the NRA than their constituents.

I don't know how you can say that you are passionate about children, want to protect children, when we know that these school shootings are out of control, gun violence in general.

And I'm glad that when the president visited Durham, North Carolina recently, since these issues happened before his trip was planned, we have to seriously consider an assault weapon ban.

We had one before.

The numbers are there to show that mass shootings were on a decline when we did have an assault weapons ban.

And unfortunately right here in North Carolina, it was the Governor's veto was overridden, that we no longer have a permit needed for handguns and pistols, and that was done less than a day after the shooting in Nashville, Tennessee.

So we are definitely moving in the wrong direction.

And Tennessee is a open carry state, so they also have removed a lot of rules and regulations around handguns, so it's completely, completely political.

And we have to stand up to protect children.

You should be able to go to school safely.

- Indeed.

I mean, let's talk about it again.

We've had 130 mass shootings just this year.

We're not even in April yet.

That's tomorrow, right?

We've had close to 640 mass shootings in 2022, with the deadliest being the Uvalde shooting in Texas, at an elementary school.

I remember a while ago, I moved to a city in Clayton, North Carolina, and we had accidents at this intersection, and there were some fatal accidents, and we asked the city, how long would it take before we get a stoplight there?

And they said we had to reach a certain number of deaths.

This feels like the same thing.

It feels like how many kids do we have to lose?

How many people do we have to lose, to finally put something in place that's gonna protect our students and the people who are in these schools?

Greer, do you feel like there is a way to balance the Second Amendment right to bear arms, with the need to ensure public safety and reduce gun violence?

- I do, Kenia, thank you so much for having me on.

And thank you to the entire PBS NC family.

I think Senator Murdoch hit it right on the head.

We need an assault weapons ban.

We need more legislative action taken at the state and local levels, to ensure the protection and safety of our students.

I remember being in high school in Wake County when the Parkland School shooting took place, one of the first shootings when we could actually see inside the school, as such an act of destruction was underway.

And I just remember feeling so stirred up with what I call righteous anger, or what my pastor calls moral indignation and holy discontent.

I mean, if not then, then when?

I mean, if not Sandy Hook, then when?

Folks were saying after Columbine that it was time to do something about guns, it was time to increase the protection that we give our students.

School and places of education are supposed to be places of sanctuary, and we see far too often they are not.

And so I do think that we can balance the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms, the right to form militias in times of danger, with the ability to protect young people in particular, but all people from this epidemic that is gun violence.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

It's very angering and maddening, and we've become so desensitized to the issue, I feel like in the United States.

I know other countries and I was able to travel to another country last summer, they look at the United States and are just so perplexed that we allow such a prevalent issue to persist, and it's taking lives, innocent lives.

And I do think that so many of these school shootings and acts of mass gun violence can be prevented.

- Yeah, Professor Chambers, do you believe in the right to own a firearm and should there be restrictions on the type of firearm that people can own?

And is it appropriate to own an AR-15?

- I do believe it.

First of all, thank you for inviting me on.

My students and I have been having this discussion in class, because they're stressed out because there have been shootings near the campus and in the city, so they're just concerned about their safety, period.

Forget about what kind of weapon is used.

They're just concerned about people's mental state and the fact that they want to do permanent solutions to temporary problems, and temporary situations.

So, I mean, that's their biggest concern.

They're not worried about the weapon per se, they're worried about the people who carry those weapons and come for them, as they call it, you know?

They always say, "I don't want people coming for me."

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine last night.

He owns two AR-15s.

He's an ex-marine.

Actually, he's not, there's no such thing as an ex-marine.

He's not a serving marine at the moment.

But he's upset about this and he's talking about this is crazy, and there needs to be something done.

The question is what?

The gentleman in the clip that you played earlier, it is an emotional issue, and we do have to deal with some solutions.

- Because once we start talking about banning... Because it's not just the AR 15s.

It's the AR 15 and the assault weapons, and those type of weapons.

And people focus on those.

And yes, we do need to talk about those.

And there are bans in other countries, I think it's New Zealand and Australia, and their numbers, you know, they don't have as many shootings.

But we also have to recognize, as soon as we start talking about banning one thing or some type of category, the political divide goes boom.

And there's a gap, and the conversation stops.

So one of the things... And this was, if you remember back when Obama was President, there was a man that kept saying, "I don't like you because you're gonna take my guns away."

And Obama was like, "No."

We just need to find a common ground and start there.

- Yeah.

- And then work our way up.

- Yeah.

- We don't need to keep like being all...

I mean, yeah, we're emotional.

I have a daughter, she's not in K-12 anymore.

But I have friends that work in K-12.

I work at a college, and some days I'm afraid.

Like I almost called off class the day after the shooting.

Or at least went virtual.

- Yeah.

- Because of the fact that my students were gonna be stressed, and I don't want them worried.

But we have to have conversations that are common ground first.

- Yeah.

- So we can get to the bigger ones.

We have to escalate and scaffold up.

It's not gonna start off with bans.

Because 24.4 million assault-type weapons are already in the hands of gun owners.

You're not gonna legislate your way outta that.

- Indeed, Senator, bringing you back in.

- Yes.

- Biden says he's made his ask, it's out of his hands.

Do you think that we'll see any real movement after this incident?

Or will we forget about it again until the next one happens?

- I am hopeful because back to reaching common ground, I do wanna highlight, here in North Carolina we did try that.

So when the permit repeal came to the Senate floor, we actually proposed four common sense amendments, which would include things like safe storage.

The elementary schooler that went to school with a weapon got that weapon from the home.

So we've also seen a lot of school shootings, you get those weapons in the home.

We need to have safe storage.

We also need universal background checks.

Those are topics that are universally popular, with Republicans and Democrats and Independents.

So first, we do need to start on the things that we agree on.

I do wanna applaud Congress.

I believe it was 20 years before they reached a compromise like they did last year following the Uvalde shooting.

And the reason we have to talk about the assault weapons is that was the big piece that was missing, is they didn't touch that at all.

But I do think the President is right, that Congress has to act.

And I think that when we have the numbers, we have to have the political will to get that done.

And I do think that day will come.

But unfortunately, I don't think that will be this year.

- That's very unfortunate.

- Yeah.

- Greer, it's been reported that Haley has a mental health diagnosis, and then was further triggered by the death of a friend.

We hear mental health a lot in these cases.

Your thoughts on the regulation of these people being able to purchase these weapons?

- Well, I first, Kenia, just have to shout out the young people, especially in generation Z, who continue to protest, who continue to make our voices known, and who continue to cry out for help, cry out for our own safety and protection, which is something we shouldn't have to do here in the freest and wealthiest country in the world.

I think also it's important to note that young people have been proposing these solutions, as Senator Murdoch and others have legislatively.

But we know how we are best protected at school.

We know so often the struggles of our peers and of those our age and around us.

And so I think it's very important that we do pass around the United States red flag laws, that we're able to have that conversation about taking these weapons away from people who are mentally unstable or emotionally incapable of possessing such weapons and not committing harm against others.

So I do think that mental health has to be a part of the conversation when we mention solutions.

I think red flag laws are a key to that.

And I'm very, very concerned and frustrated that Hale was allowed to possess multiple weapons even though she was recently, excuse me, they were recently under the care of a mental health clinician.

It's something that certainly needs to be looked into further, explored.

And I think the solutions are already on the table.

So I would say now is the time to implement these around the United States.

- Yeah, so much to pack in today's show.

So apologies for going fast.

But I wanna get these questions in.

Professor Chambers, it was just last year when we made national headlines with a mass shooting in a Raleigh neighborhood, where seven were shot and five were killed by 15 year old Austin Thompson.

These are young killers with powerful weapons.

Are our parents missing something here?

Are the parents to blame?

- Oh, no, I don't think it's the parents to blame.

I think we as a society have to ask some questions.

What is triggering them?

We have to do some soul searching.

What are our students consuming media-wise?

What are our students watching?

They love these first-person shooter games.

And I'm not trying to blame the gaming industry, but you know, what are these students, and what are these young people listening to?

What are they watching?

What are they consuming?

What are they talking about?

And we have to look at it from their perspective and understand them.

- Yeah.

- And I don't think we're doing that.

We are still talking only from our perspective and not really understanding.

Like even my college kids, I have to listen to them sometimes.

You know, I have to sit down and listen to what they're concerned about, what they're listening to, what they're watching, how they're watching this.

Like, they don't even watch TV or consume media the way we did.

So we have to understand them, and reach them where they are first before we start trying to wholesale change everything.

But the mental health issue is a fundamental one that has to be addressed.

- Yeah, Senator, last question in this topic.

About 30 seconds here.

This is prompted a look into our North Carolina school shooter drills.

And some reports are coming up saying that they're outdated, that our kids don't know what to do if this were to happen.

Any word on what's being done to ensure that teachers and students know how to react?

- We obviously need to make sure our teachers and students are trained, but have to highlight they shouldn't have to.

When I was in school, we focused on tornado drills, not active shooter drills.

So instead of being reactive, we need to be proactive to say if we get a handle on the guns, then our students won't have to engage in such trainings.

We shouldn't be in a situation where teachers have locks that I've seen, closets where they can put children in these spaces so that they're free from shooters.

And we shouldn't put that on our teachers or our students at all.

- Indeed.

- But unfortunately, we do have to.

- Indeed, while dealing with this national crisis, President Biden also began his Investing in America tour which brought him right here to North Carolina.

During this time, Biden visited Wolf Speed a chip manufacturer in Durham, North Carolina.

- Plans to expand in Chatham County projecting to bring 1800 jobs to the area.

Senator, some may have heard about the CHIPS Act, let's quickly define it for the audience.

And why is having a chip manufacturer here in North Carolina significant?

- Yes, I remember when the CHIPS Act was still being debated on Capitol Hill and now people see why this was such monumental legislation and why it was so, so very important.

In the United States, we have phenomenal innovation and creativity, but we've outsourced a lot of that.

We've outsourced a lot of jobs and shipped them off to China and other countries.

And so the CHIPS Act said, "We need that research and innovation and investment right here in the US so that we can maintain that homegrown talent."

And the CHIPS Act is the perfect example of that.

Semiconductors were actually invented here in the States yet during the supply chain shortages of Covid, we weren't able to get enough of them.

So how ironic is it that something that was invented here, we didn't have enough of.

So this will allow more of those to be created here stateside.

And the reason that's so significant, I represent South Durham and all of Chatham County and we have an electric vehicle manufacturing plant that will be coming to Chatham County.

So those semiconductors, a lot of those are utilized for electric vehicles.

EVs require more of those than your regular cars, along with a lot of other consumer products, a lot of computers, a lot of machinery requires this and we need to make them here in the US.

It will take a while for us to catch up with other countries, but this is a huge, huge step in the right direction.

But as it relates to the previous topic, unfortunately I wasn't able to attend, had to be on the Senate floor to override that veto for pistol permits or to sustain that veto for pistol permits.

But huge, huge, huge day.

And the fact that President Biden came to Durham first shows that our region is a leader in this space and it is a field that will create so many long-term sustainable jobs as well as those that are environmentally friendly as we work on getting more renewables and really ramping up our electric vehicle infrastructure nationwide.

North Carolina will be leading the way for that.

- That's great, that's great news.

Professor Chambers, 1800 jobs coming to the city, great opportunity for students.

How will this impact curriculum decisions for colleges and universities in the area?

- First of all, I want to congratulate Wolfspeed because they are a result of that talent pool that Senator Murdock was referring to, they're from North Carolina State right here.

My daughter graduated from North Carolina State so I did not, I went to Duke.

But my point is, my point is we have the talent pool here we have the resources here.

Research Triangle Park was set up for this.

And so we're taking advantage of it.

My students, I've been trying to get them more tech savvy, even on the Mass Comm side, they do Google training in the introduction to Mass Comm class because I've been seeing and been hearing and been talking to people, I'm a member, NABJ, we went to Silicon Valley and they were talking about the need that they had for people with fundamental understanding of what technology does and how it does it.

And we're trying to make sure at North Carolina Central, that our students have that basic knowledge and even a higher knowledge.

So we have students who are working at Cisco, NetApp, and places like that.

And they're not all coming from the computer science program, some of them are coming, I have a student from Mass Comm that works at Red Hat, another one that's at NetApp.

We have the students and we have the talent pool.

We have the intelligence that no matter where they go to school in North Carolina and especially, we have to give a big shout out to our community college system.

Because that's where we're gonna be able to fast track a lot of people into those 1800 jobs with skills, because it's all about experience and skillsets.

- That's great.

- And we can do it here in North Carolina.

- Yes, we can.

Greear, this tour seems as though it's Biden's way of validating what he's done, what he's accomplished during his term.

Do you think he's done that?

Do you feel like he's done a good job?

- I do.

I think President Biden has done a great job specifically when it comes to infrastructure.

As the senator mentioned, I think it's very important to highlight that he started here in North Carolina, in Durham.

I think that Wolfspeed, as the professor mentioned, is also doing a great job of leading, being one of those leaders in the tech industry, in the semiconductor industry for the United States and the world, but particularly here in North Carolina which we know is a state that often leads when it comes to business, often leads when it comes to education.

Shout out also to our HBCUs but yes to our technical colleges and community colleges.

They're so vital and important.

And as the professor mentioned, we have to continue to instill the importance of technology and that industry into the minds of our young folks.

People like myself who are in college who understand that we are where we talked about going, years ago when I had heard, "Hey get into coding, make sure you're tech savvy."

Now the tech industry is booming and North Carolina's playing a vital role in that.

And you don't actually have to be a technology expert.

The legal departments at technological companies are expanding as well as the communications and PR side of that.

So I think it's important that the President began his tour here in North Carolina and I'm so proud of the state for leading when it comes to technology and when it comes to innovation.

- That's great.

Semiconductors, they're a critical component in many artificial intelligence applications.

And as AI becomes more commonplace, we're starting to ask the questions on just how far the impact will go.

And just this week Elon Musk and Steve Wozniak called for a pause in AI development.

With many big elections coming up local and national, don't be surprised if AI takes on a primary role.

Professor Chambers, we know that AI can be used to analyze data on voters and predict their voting behavior.

Do you feel this gives politicians an upper hand when it comes to targeting specific groups?

- Well, anybody that knows how to use the tool is gonna have an upper hand.

The one of the things that we, and I say we, some of us in our department have been looking at AI.

AI has been around for a while.

This is not new.

It's just grown up a little bit and matured a lot.

So it's been around so we have to understand it.

But the political scene, yes, it's already been influenced by it.

It's been influenced by it for years because it's about analyzing data in real time.

And now it's machine learning which is a subset of AI, has gotten so much more sophisticated.

And the people who know how to use it, they're making money by like, let me tell you, let me get on your side, and help you raise your money and beat your opponent.

And the same thing, it's like a boxing match with who's gonna have the better trainer, the better training techniques, what tools you're gonna use.

- That's what it really comes down to.

But AI is here and we're all trying to understand it.

We're trying to understand the new developments, where it's going, and how we can not fight against it but use it in a productive manner, but also detect it, because sometimes... Greear and I were having this discussion, from a student professor, "How do you detect it, professor?"

I'm not gonna tell you Greear, but I can tell you we're working on it, so don't do it.

I mean, or at least understand how to use it.

- Well, you know, Greer, speaking of Greer, we find videos that we're starting to kinda question the credibility of who created it, right?

- Deepfakes.

- Deepfakes.

Raising your eyebrow, thinking, mm, is this real or not?

AI can create anything, including videos, propaganda that doesn't actually exist.

How harmful is this, Greear?

- We were having this conversation off camera.

I think it's very important to realize that AI has many benefits, right, many positive aspects, but it also can be harmful.

We already have alluded to plagiarism in the classroom, but I think when it comes to those deep fakes and politically speaking, I've seen videos of President Biden, of other politicians on Twitter and social media where folks are creating something that is not true and spreading it and sharing it.

And I do think that's harmful.

I think AI also has some positives, as well, as I mentioned, and it can be used for further outreach and to educate people.

And so, I do worry, Kenia, when it comes to authenticity.

Is AI going to improve and strengthen authenticity, or is it going to start to strip away at what it means to be human?

I think it's also important to note that when it comes to authenticity, there is a level of care and restriction that we need to make sure that we enforce when it comes to ai.

I think of Vanderbilt University, one of their schools using ChatGPT to make a statement after the Michigan State shooting and left that in the signature line of the email.

That doesn't seem very authentic for that moment.

So, I think we have a few questions that still need to be answered, but it is something that is here as Professor Chambers mentioned, something we need to be careful when we're using, but it's something that I think can be helpful.

- Yeah.

Senator, I don't wanna leave you out of the AI conversation, but I wanna shift to breaking news.

So, let's shift there.

It was announced just last night that a grand jury in Manhattan has indicted former President Donald Trump on criminal charges.

First former president of the United States to ever be indicted.

The timing of this is very interesting to me, at least.

Last time we had a mass shooting, conversations and gun laws were questioned, Roe v. Wade popped up.

Now Nashville happens and Trump gets indicted the same week.

It doesn't feel like a coincidence to me.

Again, I could be conspiring, but it feels like these are orchestrated methods of distraction.

Senator, I'd love your thoughts on that.

- Yeah, personally for me, it has really been a long time coming.

I mean, we are aware of so many potential instances, because you are innocent until proven guilty, but we are aware of so much information, so many instances where we do believe laws have been broken.

And what I like about this indictment: no one is above the law.

Just because you were president of the United States, it doesn't mean that you can break the law, do whatever you want, use that as a shield to prevent yourself from being charged.

I personally believe that's a part of why he's running for reelection: to prevent these indictments, to be a sitting president again.

So, I think that, for our justice system, we need to really show people that if you break the law, there are consequences.

And I believe, when documents become unsealed and we get access to more information, we will see that this was justified, particularly when it comes to things that deal with money and finances.

That is something that we can follow a paper trail and figure out exactly where funds exchanged for other things was, where there are illegal things going on.

I mean, particularly when it comes to politics to crack down on corruption, you really have to get a handle on misappropriation of funds throughout campaigns and favors and all of that, because we really, really should be in a political system that is fair and just.

So, I'm looking forward to following this news, but think that it's a long, long, long time coming.

I know he'll use it for political gain, but it should be concerning that you have someone running for president of the United States in the midst of trials and indictments.

Some voters will be concerned about that.

- Indeed.

I wish we had time to get more commentary on this.

We are at the end of the show, but I'd love to thank all of you: Senator Natalie Murdock, Professor Brett Chambers, and Greear.

Thank you so much for being here.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- We invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

Thank you for watching.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

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Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.