>> JUST AHEAD ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM, HOW WILL DURHAM HANDLE A DISTURBING SPIKE IN GUN VIOLENCE?

AND AS PUBLIC HEARINGS ON REDISTRICTING WRAP UP, OUR PANEL WEIGHS IN ON OUR STATE'S DISTRICT LINES AND RACIAL LINES.

STAY WITH US.

♪ ♪ >> WELCOME TO BLACK ISSUES FORUM I'M DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL.

THE PAST YEAR HAS BROUGHT A WAVE OF NEW GUN-RELATED VIOLENCE TO THE CITY OF DURHAM AND MANY HAVE TAKEN TO THE STREETS TO PROTEST.

THE MOST RECENT, A SHOOTING NEAR THE CAMPUS OF NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL UNIVERSITY THAT RESULTED IN THE DEATHS OF 2 YOUNG MEN.

NEITHER ONE WAS CONNECTED WITH THE UNIVERSITY.

IT'S LEAD THE CHANCELLOR, HOWEVER, TO JOIN THE CHORUS OF GROUPS DEMANDING FOR A CHANGE.

IN 2020, 318 PEOPLE WERE SHOT IN DURHAM.

THAT WAS NEARLY 70% MORE THAN THE NUMBER SHOT IN 2019.

WHAT DO CITY LEADERS INTEND TO DO ABOUT THIS?

I'D LIKE TO WELCOME TO THE FORUM DISTRICT ATTORNEY SAID TIME AT THE BERRY, DURHAM CITY COUNCILMAN MARK-ANTHONY MIDDLETON, AND ATTORNEY HAROLD HUGHES DISH OF THE FORSYTH COUNTY GOP.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

COUNCILMAN MIDDLETON, HOW UNIQUE IS THIS SPIKE IN VIOLENT CRIME TO DURHAM AND THEN DO YOU FEEL SAFE IN THE CITY?

>> WELL FIRST, OF COURSE I FEEL SAFE IN THE CITY.

AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, I'M A BRAND AMBASSADOR, SO I'VE DRUNK ALL THE KOOL AID ABOUT DURHAM.

IT'S THE 2ND BEST PLACE TO LIVE IN THE COUNTRY, IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ.

ONE OF THE HIGHEST PER CAPITA PhD RATES IN THE COUNTRY, BEST THEATER BETWEEN ATLANTA AND NEW YORK.

DURHAM IS A FANTASTIC PLACE THAT PEOPLE WANT TO BE.

I FEEL EXTREMELY SAFE AND THAT'S NOT JUST BECAUSE I'M A NINJA, I'M SAFE BECAUSE IT'S A SAFE PLACE.

AND NO, IT'S NOT UNIQUE TO DURHAM.

NATIONWIDE VIOLENT CRIME AND GUN VIOLENCE IS UP.

I DO WANT TO JUST CLARIFY ONE STATISTIC.

YOU MENTIONED 2020, WE'RE IN 2021.

AND THE LAST TIME OUR POLICE REPORTED STATISTICS TO US GUN INCIDENTS AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE SHOT AND ACTUALLY DOWN FROM THIS TIME LAST YEAR.

HOWEVER, THE FATALITIES ARE ABOUT 37% HIGHER.

SO MORE PEOPLE ARE DYING FROM THEIR INJURIES THIS YEAR.

>> IT'S STILL A BIG ISSUE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

NO, YOUR PRIMER WAS SPOT ON IT.

IT'S A BIG ISSUE AND IT'S A TALE OF 2 CITIES.

IT EXISTS RIGHT NEXT TO OUR NARRATIVE OF EXCELLENCE.

WE HAVE AN ISSUE WITH GUN VIOLENCE IN DURHAM, ABSOLUTELY.

>> AND HAROLD, LET ME ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THIS DISTURBING INCREASE, OR AT LEAST THE LARGE VOLUME AND ALSO THE DEATH RATE?

HOW MUCH OF IT DUE TRIBUTE POSSIBLY TO THE PANDEMIC?

>> I THINK SOME OF THIS IS PART OF THE PANDEMIC AND SOME OF ITS KIND OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS AROUND POLICING.

I THINK THE INTERIM POLICE CHIEF IS - SPOKE ABOUT THIS IN DURHAM, ABOUT HOW YOU KNOW THEY'VE HAD A PROBLEM RETAINING OFFICERS, AND A LOT OF OFFICERS HAVE LEFT, SORT OF UNEMPLOYMENT PROBLEM THERE.

I THINK YOU KNOW WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE AS MANY OFFICERS SHOWING, IT'S TAKING LONGER FOR OFFICERS TO RESPOND TO 911 CALLS.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A SAFETY ISSUE THERE.

AND I THINK THAT'S NOT UNIQUE TO DURHAM.

I THINK THAT THAT PROBLEM IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE STATE AND THE COUNTRY.

SO I THINK IT KIND OF GOES HAND-IN-HAND WITH SOME OF THE PROBLEMS WE'VE HAD AROUND RETAINING POLICE OFFICERS FOR MYRIAD OF REASONS.

BE IT, OFFICERS WANT TO LEAVE BECAUSE OF COVID, BECAUSE OF MANDATES, FOR OTHER REASONS.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW ALL THE REASONS, BUT THAT HAS BEEN AN ISSUE.

BUT I DO THINK DURHAM IS A GOOD CITY.

I SPENT 2 YEARS OF HIGH SCHOOL, NC SCHOOL OF SCIENCE AND MATH, I LIKE THE CITY A LOT.

IT'S A IT'S A GREAT PLACE, BUT I THINK IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE OTHER SIDE MID-SIZE CITIES IN NORTH CAROLINA, WINTSON-SALEM GREENSBORO.

WE JUST - IT'S A CHALLENGE FOR US ALL.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WELL YOU MENTIONED POLICING, AND D.A.

DEBERRY, IN ORDER TO COPE WITH THE PANDEMIC AND OVERCROWDING, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOUR OFFICE BEGAN WAS A PRETRIAL RELEASE POLICY TO TRY TO KEEP INDIVIDUALS WITH LOWER-LEVEL OFFENSES OUT OF JAIL.

I WANT TO KNOW HOW HAS THIS HELPED, AND ALSO HAS THERE BEEN AN INCREASED NEED FOR POLICING?

>> THANKS, DEBORAH.

LIKE COUNCILMAN MIDDLETON, I'M A BIG FAN OF THE BULL CITY, YOU KNOW, I HAVE CHILDREN WHO GO TO SCHOOL THERE.

SO IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME THAT WE'RE A SAFE PLACE TO BE, AND MY OFFICE ACTUALLY STARTED THIS PRETRIAL RELEASE POLICY PREPANDEMIC SO THAT WE WERE REALLY USING OUR LIMITED RESOURCES IN A DETENTION CENTER TO FOCUS ON PEOPLE WHO ARE A DANGER TO THEMSELVES AND OTHERS.

OVER THE PANDEMIC THAT TOOK OWN A NEW URGENCY, BECAUSE ANY TIME YOU HAVE PEOPLE IN A CONGREGATE CARE SETTING, THEY ARE MUCH MORE CHALLENGED BY COVID AND ANY TYPE OF COMMUNICABLE DISEASE.

AND SO WE'VE WORKED AS A COMMUNITY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE ONLY DETAINING THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE A DANGER, AND THAT LOW LEVEL OFFENDERS ARE GIVEN A BOND AND ASSURED THAT THEY COME TO COURT.

>> IS THE PUBLIC GOOD WITH THIS?

ARE THEY CONCERNED THAT THEY'RE MORE FOLKS OUT WHO MAY NEED TO STILL BE IN JAIL, AND WITH THIS BE CONTRIBUTING TO THE UPTICK IN VIOLENCE?

>> YEAH, THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO INDICATION THAT IT'S CONTRIBUTED AT ALL TO ANY VIOLENCE.

AGAIN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS PEOPLE WHO ARE ACCUSED OF MISDEMEANORS, OR CRIMES THAT DO NOT INVOLVE A HUMAN VICTIM.

PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF SHOOTING OR HOMICIDE CERTAINLY ARE DETAINED IN THE DURHAM COUNTY JAIL.

>> WELL, IT'S CERTAINLY ALL ABOUT, YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW MAKING THINGS SAFER.

AND COUNCILMAN MIDDLETON, YOU ATTEMPTED TO GET A GUNSHOT SURVEILLANCE EQUIPMENT INTO THE CITY.

IT FAILED.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

>> SURE.

FIRST, LET ME SAY IN RESPONSE, MY GOOD BROTHER AND FRIEND HAROLD, I DON'T KNOW THAT A FULLY STAFFED POLICE DEPARTMENT, THAT THERE'S A CORRELATION BETWEEN LOWER GUN VIOLENCE AND A POLICE DEPARTMENT AT 100% STAFFING.

IF YOU LOOK AROUND THE COUNTRY CITIES THAT AREN'T HAVING AN ISSUE WITH STAFFING THE POLICE, GUN VIOLENCE IS AN AMERICAN PROBLEM.

WE'RE THE MOST HEAVILY ARMED SOCIETY ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET.

THERE'S MORE GUNS THAN PEOPLE HERE.

AND THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT WE HAVE HIGHER DEGREES OF OF MENTAL ILLNESS IN AMERICA.

I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT.

YES, I DID TRY AND GET AN EXPERIMENTAL DEPLOYMENT OF SHOT SPOTTER.

IT'S GUNSHOT DETECTION, MORE SO THAN SURVEILLANCE.

PART OF THE ISSUE WITH THE DEBATE IS THAT THE TECHNOLOGY WAS CONFLATED WITH OVER-POLICING AND A BIG BROTHER SYNDROME BY MANY FOLKS.

I THINK THE DEBATE WAS HIJACKED.

WHEN I FIRST ACTUALLY PROPOSED IT, IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH VIOLENT CRIME AND HAD TO DO WITH THE QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUE OF UNREPORTED GUNFIRE, WHICH WE HAVE CHILDREN JUMPING IN BATHTUBS AT NIGHT WHEN IT'S NOT BATH TIME.

SO AS PART OF A COMPREHENSIVE MULTIFACETED GROUP OF THINGS THAT I PROPOSE TO ADDRESS GUN VIOLENCE IN A CITY THAT HAS A DEMONSTRATED AFFINITY FOR PILOTS.

I BELIEVE IN SCIENCE I RECOMMENDED A PILOT TO GET THE DATA TO SEE IF WE CAN PERHAPS PERHAPS HELP, AND A COMPREHENSIVE STRATEGY.

I BELIEVE THE DEBATE GOT HIJACKED INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, TO PUT A FINE POINT HERE, MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT OPPOSE SHOT SPOTTER, WE HAVE VIDEO CAMERAS GOING INTO ALL OF OUR PUBLIC HOUSING COMPLEXES AROUND THE CITY.

THE INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED SYMBOL OF SURVEILLANCE IS A VIDEO CAMERA.

SO WE WON'T TRY TECHNOLOGY THAT COULD POTENTIALLY SAVE FIRST RESPONDERS TO SAVE PEOPLE'S LIVES.

BUT WE WILL SPEND MONEY TO GET HIGH-RESOLUTION VIDEOS OF OUR VICTIMIZATION TO GO VIRAL THE NEXT MORNING.

I THINK WE MADE A WRONG DECISION.

>> WELL, THE MAYOR, HIS PROPOSED SEVERAL DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS AND WHEN SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS OF COURSE PEOPLE WANT TO GO STRAIGHT TO GUN CONTROL.

HAROLD HOW MUCH IS GUN CONTROL, SOMETHING THAT CAN BE MAINTAINED OR INCREASED AND EFFECTIVE IN PREVENTING SOME OF THESE VIOLENT CRIMES?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S EFFECTIVE AT ALL.

I THINK WHAT GUN CONTROL ESSENTIALLY MEANS IS TAKING, YOU KNOW, THE GUNS AWAY FROM LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS.

I THINK WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT A LOT OF THE GUN VIOLENCE, THE CRIMES - THE GUNS ARE USED IN THESE TYPES OF CRIMES ARE STOLEN WEAPONS OR WEAPONS THAT ARE ON THE STREET, NOT REGISTERED.

AND SO YOU KNOW I SAY THIS IS A FORMER PROSECUTOR, LIVING IN THE WORLD OF CRIMINAL DEFENSE NOW, THAT'S WHAT I DO.

AND YOU KNOW, IT I THINK THE BETTER WAY TO DO THIS IS RECRUITING POLICE OFFICERS, YOU KNOW LOOKING AT SCHOOLS LIKE NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL AND SHAW, OTHER SCHOOLS IN THE AREA, SAYING HOW DO WE INCENTIVIZE AND COMPEL OUR BEST AND BRIGHTEST YOUNG PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY BLACK FOLKS TO WANT TO BE POLICE OFFICERS IN CITIES LIKE DURHAM AND WINSTON SALEM, INSTEAD OF HAVING POLICE OFFICERS IN THE CITIES THAT COME FROM THE OUTSIDE TOWNS.

I THINK THAT'S JUST A BIG PROBLEM IN A LOT OF CITIED/ SO YOU KNOW, NOT THAT THOSE OFFICERS CAN'T DO THE JOB, BUT IT WOULD BE GOOD TO HAVE POLICE OFFICERS THAT LOOK LIKE THE COMMUNITY.

AND I THINK - INSTEAD OF VILIFYING THESE OFFICERS, I THINK PART OF THE SOLUTION IS NOT GUN CONTROL, BUT REALLY GETTING OUR POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN A BETTER - A BETTER WAY.

>> D.A.

DEBERRY, HOW ABOUT THAT SOLUTION?

MORE POLICE OFFICERS FROM THE COMMUNITY IN COMMUNITIES.

GUN CONTROL, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THOSE SOLUTIONS AND OTHER SOLUTIONS LIKE ROOT CAUSES?

>> YEAH, I DON'T THINK THE LACK OF POLICE PATROLS IS OUR PROBLEM.

YOU KNOW WE REALLY KNOW WHAT CAUSES GUN VIOLENCE.

IN DURHAM, AT DUKE UNIVERSITY, WE HAVE PHIL COOK WHO IS A WORLDWIDE EXPERT ON GUN VIOLENCE, WE KNOW HOW TO CHANGE THINGS, WE JUST LACK THE POLITICAL WILL TO DO IT.

RESEARCH SHOWS THAT WE CAN IDENTIFY SOMEBODY WHO IS GOING TO BE INVOLVED AS EITHER A SHOOTER OR VICTIM IN THE 3RD GRADE.

THAT'S NOT ABOUT POLICE THAT'S ABOUT PROVIDING ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY TO COMMUNITIES.

THAT'S ABOUT KIDS HAVING OPPORTUNITIES OUTSIDE OF WHERE THEY LIVE IS ABOUT NEIGHBORHOODS THAT FEEL SAFE TO THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS.

YOU KNOW WE TALK A LOT ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE AS DEFENDANTS AND THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE ALSO THE VICTIMS.

REALLY DO WE WANT - EVERYBODY DESERVES TO BE SAFE AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES YOU SAFE IS LIVING IN A COMMUNITY WE HAVE OPPORTUNITY FREEDOM OF MOBILITY AND THE ABILITY TO DO BETTER.

IT'S NOT NECESSARILY ABOUT HAVING MORE POLICE PATROLS.

I THINK WE LIVE IN A COMMUNITY LIKE DURHAM THAT WE HAVE - BY PEOPLE IN POWER, WE - OUR FORMER POLICE CHIEF WAS BLACK OUR NEW POLICE CHIEF IS A BLACK WOMAN.

AND SO WE ARE ADDRESSING THOSE TYPE OF ISSUES I THINK NOW WE ARE AT A MUCH MORE NUANCED PLACE WHERE WE REALLY NEED TO LOOK ABOUT WHAT WE'RE PROVIDING TO THE PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY AS THEY GROW UP.

>> AND EVERYBODY NEEDS TO BE INVOLVED IN IDENTIFYING THOSE SOLUTIONS AND BEING PART OF THE SOLUTION THEMSELVES.

THANK YOU.

OVER THE PAST WEEK, PUBLIC HEARINGS WRAPPED UP ON HOW NORTH CAROLINIANS DISTRICT MAPS WILL BE DRAWN AND WHERE THE LINES WILL FALL.

FOLLOWING THE 2020 CENSUS, NORTH CAROLINA GAINED A SEAT GIVING OUR STATE 14 TOTAL.

EARLY DRAFTS OF MAPS INDICATE THAT WE COULD END UP WITH ANYWHERE FROM 9 TO 11 REPUBLICAN DELEGATES AND 3 TO 5 DEMOCRATS, SOME PROPOSED MAPS ARE MORE EVENLY SPLIT.

BUT WE DO KNOW THAT REPUBLICANS HOLD THE MAJORITY RIGHT NOW.

AND GOVERNOR COOPER HAS NO VETO POWER IN THIS BOAT.

COUNCILMAN MIDDLETON, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE PROCESS AND THE RESULTING MAPS SO FAR?

>> YOU KNOW SOME TIME AGO A JUDGE ON THE 4TH CIRCUIT SAID THAT OUR MAPS IN NORTH CAROLINA WERE DRAWN WITH SURGICAL PRECISION TO DISENFRANCHISE BLACK FOLK IN THE STATE.

WHO AM I TO ARGUE WITH A FEDERAL JUDGE?

WE, YOU KNOW, THESE LINES ARE DRAWN - THIS IS WHY WE IMPRESSED THE IMPORTANCE OR STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF LOCAL ELECTIONS.

WE TEND TO FOCUS AT THE PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL AND NATIONAL LEVEL, BUT UNDER STATE LEGISLATURE IN LOCAL ELECTIONS, THAT'S WHERE OUR LINES ARE DRAWN FOR THESE MAPS.

I THINK THE MATH IS COMPELLING TO US.

AND WHAT'S GOING ON REALLY HERE IS SOME OF MY FRIENDS RECOGNIZE THE IMPACT OF THE MATH OF DEMOGRAPHICS.

AMERICANS BECOMING MORE BROWN AND LESS WHITE AND THERE'S BEEN A BACKLASH AGAINST THAT, AND AN ATTEMPT A CODIFIED THAT BACKLASH TO HOW WE DRAW MAPS.

I THINK WE HAVE TO BE MINDFUL THAT NORTH CAROLINA IS A STATE THAT'S BROWNING ITSELF.

AND THAT OUR MAPS TO BE REFLECTIVE OF FOLK.

AND YOU KNOW THERE'S SOME THINGS - THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT ARE SPECIFICALLY TROUBLING TO ME.

SOME MY FRIENDS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE.

HAROLD AND I'VE DISCUSSED THIS BEFORE, ABOUT THIS INTENTIONAL ATTEMPT WHETHER IT'S RACIALLY MOTIVATED OR NOT, THE IMPACT, THE END RESULT SEEMS TO BE SKEW TOWARDS DISENFRANCHISING AND SUPPRESSING BLACK AND BROWN VOTERS IN THE STATE IS VERY TROUBLING.

>> LET ME GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT HAROLD, YOU KNOW HE'S - HE'S TALKED ABOUT THE BROWNING OF NORTH CAROLINA, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ABOUT THE RED AND BLUE KIND OF ASPECT OF NORTH CAROLINA, SOME SAY WERE PURPLE?

BUT YOU KNOW, WE'RE REALLY ARE WE AND HOW DOES THAT PLAY WITH THE BROWNING OF OUR STATE?

>> WELL, HERE'S WHERE WE ARE.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S THIS NOTION THAT BECAUSE THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA ARE PRETTY CLOSE, THEY'RE 50/50 ESSENTIALLY, THAT YOU KNOW, THAT OUR CONGRESSIONAL ARM SHOULD BE 50/50, MEANING 7 AND 7.

THE PROBLEM ISN'T THE PURPLE STATE, OR THE BROWNING OF NORTH CAROLINA, THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY'RE 100 COUNTIES IN NORTH CAROLINA.

AND 80 OVER 80 OF THEM ARE RED.

AND SO WHEN YOU DRAW MAPS THAT THEY'RE DRAWN BY GRAPHIC REGIONS.

AND THE COURTS HAVE SAID THAT WE HAVE TO KEEP COMMUNITIES WHOLE AND KEEP COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST WHOLE.

AND SO WHEN YOU ATTEMPT TO DO THAT, WHAT YOU END UP HAVING - YOU END UP HAVING IS THE MAPS, YOU KNOW THAT THE STATE LEGISLATURE'S PUT OUT, THESE MAPS ARE PUT OUT WITHOUT TAKING RACE INTO ACCOUNT, WITHOUT TAKING PARTY INTO ACCOUNT.

TRY TO KEEP COMMUNITIES WHOLE.

THAT'S WHAT THE STATE LEGISLATURE'S DONE.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT DISENFRANCHISING MINORITY VOTERS AT ALL.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT - THAT THE PEOPLE ON THE LEFT THEY WANT TO KNOW IF THAT'S ALWAYS THE ARGUMENT RIGHT?

IF THEY DON'T GET THEIR WAYS BUT IT MUST BE SOME RACIAL INTENT.

ITS NOT.

I THINK THAT YOU KNOW, THESE MAPS ARE DRAWN FAIRLY AND YOU'RE - IN FACT, THERE'S A PROFESSOR WITH WESTERN CAROLINA SAID CHALLENGES STUDENTS TO DRAW 7/7 MAP OF NORTH CAROLINA, THEY COULDN'T DO WITHOUT GERRYMANDERING.

THEY CAN'T.

>> THERE'S RACIAL INTENT AND THEN THERE'S RACIAL EFFECT.

SO SOMETIMES IT'S NOT ABOUT YOUR INTENTION, BUT IT'S ABOUT THE EFFECT OF THE DECISIONS AND YOU KNOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE MAJORITY OF OUR COUNTIES WHO - THAT ARE RED BUT THOSE BLUE COUNTIES ARE DENSELY POPULATED.

SO THERE'S A BALANCE TO BE STRUCK THERE, I WOULD SAY.

>> YEAH, I MEAN I UNDERSTAND THAT BALANCE.

BUT PART OF THE ISSUE IS IF WE DON'T, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THESE MAPS THAT HAVE THIS SORT OF SNAKE DISTRICTS, LIKE THE OLD 12TH DISTRICT USED TO BE, WHICH WAS DRAWN ON RACIAL LINES, RIGHT?

AND IF WE'RE GOING TO - WE'RE GOING TO GET AWAY FROM HAVING THOSE TYPES OF DISTRICTS, THEN WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THESE DISTRICTS LIKE THE MAPS THAT WE HAVE NOW, THAT KIND OF KEEP THESE AREAS WHOLE.

AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE DISTRICTS THAT YOU KNOW WE'RE GOING TO HAVE 7 OR 8 COUNTIES AND THAT ARE RED THAT'S JUST SORT OF UNAVOIDABLE BASED ON THE GEOEGRAPHY.

>> WE'RE GOING TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT RACE IN A SECOND, I WANT TO GET YOUR FEEDBACK.

D.A.

DEBERRY, YOUR THOUGHTS ON HOW THESE MAPS ARE DRAWN?

>> WELL TO SAY THAT ANYTHING IN THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT HAVE RACIAL INTENT IS TO FORGET THE WHOLE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES, AND CERTAINLY TO GET THE HISTORY OF US SD A SOUTHERN STATE.

YOU KNOW, I LIVE IN DURHAM COUNTY NOW FOR 2 DECADES, I'VE BEEN IN 3 CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS.

THE ONLY THING THAT HASN'T CHANGED IN THOSE 20 YEARS IS ME BEING BLACK.

AND SO IT IS VERY CLEAR AND THESE THAT REDISTRICTING MAPS ARE BEING CREATED ACROSS THE COUNTRY NOT JUST IN NORTH CAROLINA.

BUT TO RETAIN THE POWER OF A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND I THINK DEBORAH YOU BROUGHT THIS UP, IS THAT SOMETHING LIKE 70% OF NORTH CAROLINIANS NOW LIVE IN AN URBAN COUNTY.

AND THE POPULATION IS SHIFTING.

AND SO WE SHOULD REPRESENT WHERE THE POPULATION IS, NOT NECESSARILY ARTIFICIAL GEOGRAPHIC BOUNDARIES, CREATING COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST AS ATTORNEY EUSTACHE SAID.

>> WELL THERE'S MORE TO BE TALKED ABOUT ON THIS SUBJECT.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REDISTRICTING AND AN ISSUE THAT IS IN PLAY IS THE IDEA OF RACIAL POLARIZATION.

EARLIER IN THE YEAR BEFORE MAPS WERE DRAWN GOP LEADERS ADOPTED SOME RULES OF PLAY.

ONE OF THEM WAS THAT RACIAL DATA COULD NOT BE USED AS A DETERMINANT IN DRAWING THE LINES.

MAKE SENSE RIGHT?

WELL THAT RULE WAS BASED ON THE BELIEF THAT VOTERS DON'T VOTE ON CANDIDATES, ACCORDING TO THE RACE OF THE CANDIDATE.

THIS LOCAL RULE RUNS COUNTER TO A LONGSTANDING US POLICY THAT REQUIRES THE PURPOSEFUL DRAWING OF MAJORITY MINORITY DISTRICTS OR DISTRICTS WHERE A RACIAL MINORITY GROUP OR GROUPS COMPRISE A MAJORITY OF THE DISTRICT'S TOTAL POPULATION, IN ORDER TO ENSURE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF SEATS FOR BLACK POLITICIANS.

HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA 4 OUT OF EVERY 10 VOTERS ARE NONWHITE ONLY 2 DISTRICTS HAVE BLACK REPRESENTATIVES: GK BUTTERFIELD IN DISTRICT 1, AND ALMA ADAMS IN DISTRICT 12.

BOTH DISTRICTS ARE MAJORITY MINORITY DRAWN DISTRICTS.

COUNCILMAN MIDDLETON, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN USING RACIAL DATA TO DRAW DISTRICT LINES THAT COULD ENSURE THAT THERE ARE SOME BLACK REPRESENTATION OF MINORITY REPRESENTATION IN THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND ILLEGAL RACIAL GERRYMANDERING?

>> IT'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN USING A KNIFE AS A SURGEON OR AS A SERIAL KILLER.

ONE IS TO REPAIR, ONE IS TO DO HARM.

YOU KNOW, THAT THE - LET'S, LET'S BE CLEAR, THE HEAD OF THE PARTY THAT MANY OF MY FRIENDS ARE IN, THE GOP PARTY, STARTED HIS CAREER WITH A RACIST LIE, AND IS ENDING HIS CAREER BY SUGGESTING THAT THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE SYSTEM IS IS TAINTED, THAT ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

AND MUCH OF THAT IS BEING DONE ON THE BACK BACK OF MINORITY BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND I SAY TO MY FRIENDS ALL THE TIME, YOU KNOW ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE, IT'S HIGHLY MORE LIKELY THAT I VOTED FOR MANY MORE WHITE PEOPLE, THAN YOU HAVE BLACK PEOPLE, IN THE COURSE OF MY CAREER.

UNSCIENTIFIC BUT I'M CERTAIN THAT'S THE CASE.

YES, SO THE NOTION THAT TO REPAIR IS NOW THE HARM, AND TO FIX THE HARM IS SOMEHOW DOING FURTHER HARM, IT'S PART OF THE PSYCHOSIS OF RACISM, SYSTEMIC RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY, WHERE BLACK IS WHITE AND MATH ISN'T MATH ANYMORE.

APPARENTLY MATH IS NOW PART OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

SO WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW ELECTIONS WERE WON AND MATH STILL WORKS AND NUMBERS ARE NUMBERS.

SO I'M DEEPLY CONCERNED BY IT.

AND I HOPE THAT MY FRIENDS ON THE OTHER SIDE WILL TAKE THEIR PARTY BACK, WHICH HAS BECOME UNRECOGNIZABLE.

>> WELL HAROLD LET'S GET YOUR FEEDBACK ON THAT.

SEEMS LIKE - >> I THINK FIRST, YEAH - FIRST, TALK ABOUT HOW WE GOT HERE, ABOUT AS FAR AS RACE BEING TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WITH REDISTRICTING.

THE ISSUE IS THAT THE COURT SAID BECAUSE OF WHAT COUNCILMAN MIDDLETON BROUGHT UP IN THE LAST SEGMENT ABOUT YOU KNOW SURGICAL PRECISION, THE COURT SAID WELL, TAKE RACE OUT.

TAKE RACE OUT OF IT.

AND THAT WAS IN RESPONSE TO WHAT SOME OF THE FOLKS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WANTED.

SO THAT'S WHY HAS HAPPENED.

TWO, I TAKE ISSUE WITH WITH YOU KNOW SOME IN THE OTHER PARTY SAYING THAT YOU KNOW THE GOP WON'T VOTE FOR BLACKS OR THAT IT - I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

THE REALITY IN NORTH CAROLINA IS - AND IN THE SOUTH - THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BEEN BETTER AT PUTTING BLACK PEOPLE INTO POSITIONS OF POWER THAN THE DEMOCRAT PARTY, WITHOUT QUESTION.

LOOK AT OUR FIRST LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WHO WON A PRIMARY AGAINST 8 WHITE PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW IN IN NORTH CAROLINA, HE WON THAT PRIMARY.

LOOK AT SOUTH CAROLINA HAS SENATOR TIM SCOTT WON A STATEWIDE ELECTION.

LOOK AT KENTUCKY AND DANIEL CAMERON WON A STATEWIDE ELECTION THEN WE LOOK AT NORTH CAROLINA STATE, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HASN'T HAD, YOU KNOW, BLACK SENATOR OR GOVERNOR, HASN'T A BLACK ATTORNEY GENERAL.

SO ALL THESE THESE FOLKS HIS ANY TALK ABOUT 40% OF STATE REALLY 60% DEMOCRATS BEING VOTERS OF COLOR - WELL, WHAT'S TO SHOW FOR IT?

I MEAN IT IS PERPLEXING TO ME THAT THIS, YOU KNOW, FOLKS JUST KEEP VOTING OVER AND OVER AND, AS COUNSEL MIDDLETON SAID, FOR WHITE CANDIATES.

>> IS THIS ABOUT ABOUT PRINCIPLES AND POLICIES.

COUNCILMAN MIDDLETON YOU WANT TO JUMP IN - >> I'M SORRY, I NEVER SAID THAT THE GOP DOESN'T ELECT BLACK FOLK, I SAID THAT JUST UNSCIENTIFICALLY, I'M SURE THAT I VOTED FOR MORE WHITE PEOPLE THAN INDIVIDUAL GOP's HAVE VOTED FOR BLACK PEOPLE OVER THE COURSE OF THEIR VOTING LIFE.

AND THERE'S ALL KIND OF REASONS FOR THAT, BUT I NEVER SUGGESTED THE GOP DOES NOT ELECT BLACK PEOPLE.

I HAVE FRIENDS OF THE GOP THAT ARE ELECTED OFFICIALS.

>> WELL IN TERMS OF LOOKING AFTER THE INTERESTS OF MINORITY COMMUNITIES DOES IT MATTER WHAT THE SKIN COLOR OF THE CANDIDATE IS?

LET ME GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS D.A.

DEBERRY.

>> WELL, I THINK WHAT MATTERS IS EXPERIENCE OF THAT CANDIDATE AND THERE'S CERTAIN EXPERIENCES THAT WE ON THIS PANEL SHARE AS BLACK PEOPLE THAT WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT SHARE IN THIS COUNTRY.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT A WHITE CANDIDATE CANNOT LOOK OUT FOR THE INTERESTS OF MINORITY PEOPLE.

IT JUST MEANS THAT WE WANT - WE ARE DIVERSE ELECTORATE, AND WE SHOULD BE REPRESENTED BY A DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE AND I THINK THAT IS ALWAYS WHAT I CERTAINLY I BELIEVE.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT MOST BLACK AMERICANS BELIEVE, IS WE DON'T ALL AGREE ON ANYTHING.

RIGHT?

THE 3 OF US ON THIS PANEL KNOW COUNCIL MIDDLETON AND I ARE VERY GOOD FRIENDS AND VERY MUCH ALIGNED AND WE CAN PROBABLY FIND MANY MANY WAYS IN WHICH WE DISAGREE.

AND SO I THINK BETTER GOVERNANCE COMES FROM HAVING A DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE.

MAKING THE DECISIONS >> WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF NORTH CAROLINA.

IT IS BROWNING, THERE ARE THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF LATINO RESIDENTS HERE IN OUR STATE, BUT THERE'S NOT - THERE'S ONLY ONE LATINO REPRESENTATIVE IN OUR LEGISLATURE.

COUNCILMAN MIDDLETON?

>> PRECISELY.

AND - AND LISTEN, THE MATH IS COMPELLING AND OUR FRIENDS ON THE OTHER PARTY THEY THEY READ DEMOGRAPHIC TRENDS, AND THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING AND POWER IS A VERY APPEALING AND ADDICTIVE DRUG.

AND WE'VE SEEN A CONCERTED SYSTEMIC SCIENTIFIC EFFORT - PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC EFFORT - TO SUPPRESS THE DISENFRANCHISED.

WHY WOULD THE LEGISLATURE WANTS THE POWER TO OVERTURN AN ELECTION OR THE POWER TO REVIEW ELECTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN CERTIFIED AND RECERTIFIED AND VALIDATED BY FOLK IN IN THEIR OWN PARTY THAT SAID THEY'RE VALID?

WHAT - WHY WOULD YOU WANT THAT POWER?

WHAT ARE YOU EXPECTING, WHAT ARE YOU ANTICIPATING, WHAT ARE YOU SETTING THE BOARD UP FOR?

IT IS CLEAR.

IT IS REGRESSIVE.

IT IS A THREAT, AN IMMINENT THREAT TO THE VERY FABRIC OF OUR DEMOCRACY AND WE NEED TO BE ON GUARD AS WE MOVE FORWARD >> HAROLD, HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> I WOULD RESPOND BY SAYING YOU KNOW, PART OF THE REASON THAT LEGISLATURES NEED TO LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, THESE ELECTIONS BECAUSE WE'VE HAD A BOARD OF ELECTIONS IN NORTH CAROLINA, PENNSYLVANIA AND OTHER STATES THAT USURPED THE LEGISLATION THAT USURPED THE LEGISLATURE WENT AROUND THE LEGISLATION CREATING LAWS AT THE 11TH HOUR, ESPECIALLY IN 2020, AND CHANGED THE VOTING LAWS.

WHILE PEOPLE ARE VOTING.

>> THERE WAS A PANDEMIC IN PLACE AND SO THERE WAS UNIQUE NEED TO MAKE SOME CHANGES.

>> THERE'S ALSO NO EVIDENCE REALLY THAT THAT HAPPENED.

>> WELL, THAT ABSOLUTELY HAPPENED IN NORTH CAROLINA WITHOUT QUESTION.

LAWS WERE CHANGED.

IT'S INCONTROVERTIBLE, LAWS WERE CHANGED BY THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS WITHOUT THE STATE LEGISLATURE.

THAT HAPPENED.

>> ERGO, WHAT?

WERE VOTES CHANGED?

>> WELL, THE ISSUE IS THE LAWS WER CHANGED.

SO WHAT WHAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE SAYING IS IF LAWS ARE GOING TO BE CHANGED, UNCONSTITUTIONLLY, WITHOUT STATE LEGISLATURE, BECAUSE THE STATE LEGISLATURE CONTROLS VOTING, THEY'RE ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE AND THAT'S OUR DEMOCRACY, THEN THEN WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE, THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE WHO IS THE STATE LEGISLATURE HAVE THAT VOICE.

AND IT'S NOT THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS USURPING.

>> THE UNCONSTITUTIONALITY OF THESE CHANGES IS DEBATABLE.

THE ELECTION WAS FAIR AND IT WAS LEGAL, THE COUNT WAS LEGAL.

D.A.

DEBERRY, YOU KNOW WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT AND HOW DISTRICT LINES ARE DRAWN AND REPRESENTATION THROUGHOUT THE STATE WHERE DO YOU THINK RACE SHOULD PLAY IN TERMS OF POLICIES FOR DRAWING THESE LINES?

>> I HAVE TO AGREE WITH COUNCILMAN MIDDLETON THAT, YOU KNOW, TO NOW AGAIN, SAY THAT RACE DOES NOT MATTER IN UNITED STATES COMPLETELY IGNORES OUR HISTORY.

I THINK RACE PLAYS A ROLE, I THINK THERE'S A WAY THAT WE CAN DRAW MAPS, THAT IS FAIR THAT REPRESENTS EVERY ONE OF - NONE OF THIS IS UNKNOWN.

PLAINTIFFS IN THE REDISTRICTING CASE PROVIDED AN EXPERT WHO DID COMPUTER GENERATED MAPS.

THAT MET ALL OF THE REQUIREMENTS SET OUT BY THE COURT.

SO IT'S NOT LIKE WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THIS WE DO.

AND THIS - THIS CONTINUING MISINFORMATION ABOUT VOTES BEING STOLEN OR PEOPLE NOT VOTING IN WHERE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO - IS TO TAKE AWAY FROM THE FACTS THAT WE KNOW HOW TO DO THIS AND WE JUST AGAIN DON'T HAVE THE POLITICAL WILL TO DO IT.

>> D.A.

SATANA DEBERRY, HERALD EUSTACHE, COUNCILMAN MARK-ANTHONY MIDDLETON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING OUT AND BEING A PART OF TODAY'S PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

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