- Welcome to "The Songwriters."

I am Ken Paulson.

Today we have a very special show, a conversation with a man who wrote legendary songs like "LA Freeway" and "Desperados Waiting for a Train."

He passed away shortly after this program was filmed, but we are honored today to present that conversation with the great Guy Clark.

(bright acoustic music) Welcome to a celebration of the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame.

I'm Ken Paulson, and today we are sitting here with one of the most storied and honored members of the hall of fame, legendary singer-songwriter, Guy Clark.

Welcome, Guy.

- Thank you, sir.

- Well, it's great to have a chance to visit with you.

We've had a chance to visit with a number of people who have written songs for a living.

You're different from the other folks I've talked to recently, because each and every one of them sat down in a room with a piano or a guitar and said, I've gotta convince Johnny Cash to cut my song.

I've gotta find somebody to record my music.

- [Guy] Yeah, right.

- It seems to me that your career has always been about writing music for yourself.

- That's correct.

I'm glad that got across.

(chuckles) - And yet somehow, even though you write these highly personal songs.

- Yeah.

- About your life, other people have cut 'em.

- Well, they just wouldn't be good songs if I was trying to write about somebody else's life.

I've just never understood that.

- And so- - I mean, I've tried.

(both chuckle) But it just didn't work.

- So what's a common denominator among the songs that you wrote that other people did record?

I mean, you've had- - Well, it's the quality of the writing, I hope.

You know, I mean, it's good use of the English language.

You know, I don't know other than that, if there is a common denominator other than it's quality work.

- Well, you talk about good use of English language, and you're probably tired of the whole Guy Clark is a songwriter's songwriter, but forgive me, that happens.

- No, no.

- That happens to be true.

- I mean, that's what I do.

- That's right.

And it has to do with the craftsmanship.

It has to do with the laboring over words and music.

And we'll talk in a bit about your work on guitars, some clear parallels.

But it seems to me you come to your music from the perspective of a poet.

- Well, both of my parents were very literate.

My father's a lawyer, and my mother was extremely bright, and both of them well educated.

And we were always encouraged in that direction.

You know, I mean, I was in high school earlier, it was pre-TV, so we didn't sit around and watch television after supper.

We read out loud, whether it was poetry or prose or whatever, so.

- And do you recall the first time you said, you know what, I think I can write a song.

- Yeah, first time I heard Townes Van Zandt write one, I figured if he can do it, anybody can.

- Was that the inspiration?

- It was in a lot of ways.

Townes was my best friend for like 40 years or so.

And I just adored his use of the language and his sensibilities.

I don't know if that's true or not, but he wasn't very sensible.

But I don't know.

And of course, the blues players, Lightnin' Hopkins and Mance Lipscomb, who lived right in the same part of Texas I was living, you know, in Houston and around that area.

And those guys were singer-songwriters.

I mean, they were doing hit songs off the radio.

They were writing their own songs.

And I found that just really inspiring, you know?

- What was your very first song?

- Huh?

- What was your very first song?

- That I wrote?

- Yeah.

- It was a good song called "Step Inside My House," or this house, Lyle Lovett had an album named that.

It was one of his songs of mine that he did.

- Your very first song.

- That was the first song I ever wrote.

- And I mean, that's just astonishing.

- Well, I guess so.

I mean, I don't know.

I mean, it was a song that I had been singing around Houston, playing in joints and coffee houses.

And Lyle heard it and learned it from someone else, even learned it from me.

And it just turned out that way.

- Did you set out initially to be a performer?

- Yeah, I've always enjoyed performing, you know, singing my own work.

Well, I mean, I used to be quote, "folk singer," and I did a lot of traditional folk songs.

And I always enjoyed performing them.

I always figured that was the safest place I could be.

It was on stage playing.

- Well, you emerged as a singer-songwriter, artist, performer, during a very vibrant '70s scene coming out of Texas.

- Yeah.

- And Jerry Jeff Walker was probably the most popular.

- Yep, he was a big, big part of it.

- And Townes Van Zandt was probably the dark horse one that you all admired.

Can you talk a little bit about what the fertility of that scene at the time?

- Well, Jerry Jeff was a really high energy, you know, a lot of stuff going on that he kind of perpetuated, I guess.

He always had a good band, not a band so much.

Jerry Jeff by himself with a guitar is still one of the best singer-songwriters I've ever heard, to have him just stand up there with a guitar and sing.

I mean, he is mesmerizing, you know, as was Townes.

But I don't think they're competitive in any way.

I mean, they might have been competitive, but they don't get in each other's way as far as what they're doing.

- And then Jerry Jeff records "LA Freeway."

- Yeah, right.

- Was that sort of the breakthrough for you?

- It was a big help, it was a big help.

I mean, I guess so, it kind of gave me a place to step off from, you know, and Jerry was always very gracious about it.

- So the song suggests that a young man fleeing the big city and going home.

- Well, it was true.

I mean, I was living in LA and I did not like it.

And I was ready to go.

(chuckles) - So is a large body of your work just sort of a reflection of your life?

- Yeah, autobiographical, if you will.

No, but that was a true song.

I mean, I didn't write it as it was happening.

I wrote it the next day, kind of is the way you go about this stuff.

You know, you go home and you wind up with a pocket full of bar napkins, and then the next day you have to sort 'em out, go through 'em.

I know I have one particular bar napkin at home and all my papers that written on it says, my life was a blank bar napkin until I met you.

(both laughing) - And heaven help you if you misplace a particularly creative bar napkin.

- Well, that's just the way it goes.

You know, you chose this field, so you might as well try to remember to sweep 'em up.

- One of your other best known songs, particularly from that era, "Desperados waiting for a Train."

- Yeah.

- And that has the ring of familiarity and truth.

- That is just so dead on true, you can't believe it.

You know, because I knew when I started writing songs that that was gonna be one of 'em.

You know, I didn't get to it immediately, but as soon as I felt like I could write good enough, then that's where I went.

And- - So who was the old man?

- The old man was a guy named Jack Prigg.

He was a wildcatter in West Texas.

He lived at my grandmother's hotel.

Matter of fact, my father was a young man.

He had lived at the hotel.

He didn't pay rent, he just lived there and took care of all the stuff, you know, the water and the, you know, everything.

And he was like my grandfather, you know, I didn't know my real grandfather, but he was, always said he was my grandmother's boyfriend, which I'm not sure about, but he may have been.

But he was a crusty old oil field, you know, a driller in the oil fields, which was high up there.

And it's right there before you become an executive.

But he was in the field, you know, like drilling the oil wells with cable tool rigs before they had rotary rigs.

And he never married.

He was just a crusty old fart, you know, who lived at my grandmother's hotel and took care of me like he was my grandfather.

And always thought about him like that.

And I mean, that song was there from day one, you know?

- A lot of people have recorded Desperados.

It had to be fun to hear Cash and Jennings and Kristofferson.

- Yeah.

- The Highway Men did a version of it.

- They did.

- Are the versions of your songs that kind of, you know, make the hair on the back of your neck stand up where you go- - There is one.

And it is that song.

You remember old cowboy actor named Slim Pickens?

- Yeah.

- Slim Pickens read that song as a poem over the music for a record he made.

- Wow.

- And I mean, it's just spine-tingling, you know?

- Really?

- To have that song recited to you in Slim Pickens' voice.

- Isn't Slim Pickens in "Dr.

Strangelove?"

Was that?

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- He rode the bomb.

(both laugh) - That's a pretty good career that man had.

- Yeah, he did.

But he was a stunt man in Hollywood, a rodeo guy, you know, he was in that ilk of Hollywood.

- You know, I may be overlooking a whole body of bad recordings, but it strikes me that very cool people recorded your stuff.

- Uh-huh, yeah, they have.

- You know, Rodney Crowell.

- Yeah.

- Ricky Skaggs, you know, are there cheesy Guy Clark recordings out there?

- Oh yeah, sure.

I might have done a couple myself.

Yeah, there is some stuff I don't particularly care for, you know, I'm not gonna name names or point fingers, but they know who they are.

(both laugh) - So a song like "Heart Broke."

Number one record.

- Yeah.

- Did you sit down and say, I'm gonna write a number one record?

- No, I did not.

I used to write in these bounds blue books.

You know, you write it in college, write dissertations or whatever.

Anyway, I used to write in those.

And one day I was just going through it and looking for stuff, you know, and anything that would inspire me.

And I grabbed this bundle of papers between these two fingers.

And I was looking and I just turned it over and there was the second verse.

There was the chorus.

Just by accident, that I grabbed those two pages.

And that was the day I quit writing in those blue books.

I went to writing on individual pages, so I'd never be hung up by that again.

But it was the chorus to "Heart Broke" and the verses to "Heart Broke."

And I kept going, "What goes with these verses what goes with these verses?

What goes with this chorus?"

And it was those two separate things.

- That is amazing.

- Yeah, it was.

- That's never happened before or since- - No, no, like I said, that's when I quit writing in those books.

- How about "She's Crazy for Leaving?"

- Yeah, that's a pretty good song.

It was a song I had started and had virtually finished.

And Rodney was gonna produce the next album I was doing.

And we were sitting around the house trying to pick out songs to do.

And I kept saying, there's something not right about this song.

It's in the chorus or whatever.

And he said, "Yeah, I know what you mean."

So we sat down and kind of rewrote it.

And he recorded it very well, and I recorded it.

But it's just one of those things.

I mean, it's fairly light fair, you know, but it was a picture of a way we grew up in Texas, of those characters, is mainly what it was.

- People who love like Guy Clark's music and are longtime fans also sort of they love your life.

They love the story of you and your late wife, Susanna, and your friendship with Townes.

- Yeah.

- I mean, it is the stuff of legend and- - [Guy] Oh yeah, I wouldn't deny it.

- So I have a question about Susanna, who's this wonderful artist.

You are the songwriter.

- Yeah.

- And then she starts writing songs.

- Oh, yeah.

- What was that about?

- That was about her listening to me and Townes just go through all this angst and writing songs and playing a guitar there on and on and on And she said, "Oh crap, I've heard enough of this."

And just sat down, wrote a hit and said, "Now, is that what y'all are talking about?"

(both laugh) - Did that surprise you?

- It didn't surprise me.

I think it might have caught Townes off guard, but I mean, I knew that was there, you know?

- Did you then have to take a painting?

- Well, I was already a painter, so I didn't have to prove anything.

- Well, speaking of your art, one of the things that you're known for is building guitars.

- Uh-huh.

- And where did that begin?

- Well, growing up in West Texas, one of the first things you get as a young boy is a pocket knife.

And they show you how to sharpen.

They give you a wet stone and keep it sharp.

And you just always make your own toys out of the ends of fruit boxes, you know?

And I have just always had this kind of really close relationship with wood and carving wood with a sharp blade.

And there's nothing like it.

I mean, it is spiritual.

And that's what building guitars is to me.

A lot of people are really afraid of guitars.

Oh, I broke a string, I'm gonna have to get to the music store.

You know, and to me it's just like, "Oh man, come on, you know, it's just wood, you know?"

And oh, I cracked the back, I cracked the back.

Well, glue it back together, get some silver glue and rub it down in there, you know?

And I just never took guitars as that precious.

I mean, you don't wanna abuse 'em.

There's some really great instruments out there that need to be nurtured and taken care of, but I mean, they're not anything you can't fix.

And I've always just had a real easygoing relationship with wood, and I've always enjoyed working with it.

I don't really wanna build furniture.

I mean, this is art, you know?

To me, this guitar here, this is just absolutely stunning.

And this isn't even the best one.

I just picked this one up going out of the house.

- But this is your work.

- Yeah, yeah.

Check it out.

- Wow.

- I mean, it's the details.

- It's beautiful.

- But that's a great guitar.

- How many hours would you spend?

- I don't know, I never, you know, that just never interested me to figure that out.

I know I can build two of those guitars in about three weeks, which is, does not include the finish.

The finish takes longer to dry and put on and sand down and everything.

But to actually construct the guitar and have it strung up and playing, about two weeks, three weeks.

- If songwriting hadn't worked out, you had some options in life.

- Yeah, but I don't wanna build guitars for a living.

That's hard, man, you know?

Then you gotta fix 'em if they break.

- So you know, hearing your stories.

(guitar strumming) Does that sound good.

- Yeah, it is a good guitar.

- People are watching the show now going, you just stopped Guy from playing his guitar.

- Oh, really?

You didn't, I was interrupting you, I'm sorry.

- No, no, I wanna ask you, you said the bar napkins.

- Yeah, right.

- You know, the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame is full of more than 180 people who have been honored for their songwriting skills.

I suspect no two of them have the same technique.

- No, probably not.

- Although bar napkins are probably pretty common.

- Oh, that is, that's kind of a joke, you know?

Well, what'd you get on the bar napkin last night?

- But if you're talking to an 18-year-old who wants with all his or her heart to write songs.

- Yeah.

- What's the advice?

- Write with a pencil and a big eraser.

I mean, that's really the only advice I have, you know, is just nothing's written in stone.

So writing pencil, and get a good eraser so you can erase it if you don't like scratching out.

I don't know, you know, I mean, you have to work at it.

It's there to be done.

You can't really copy anyone.

It's like, if you could copy, there's Townes, you know, there's a yard's stone for you.

And I don't know how people teach songwriting.

I mean, I've done it.

Somebody's, oh, come teach my songwriting class.

And it's like, oh man, you can't do that.

I can't do that.

But I go try, and the way I approach it is, you know, I have seven or eight people in a room.

And okay, today we're gonna write a song.

Anybody got an idea?

Yeah, how about a song about a guitar?

Well, okay, here we go.

What's the first line?

And just sit there and proceed to make them write a song.

Or I'll push 'em along rather than getting them to play me their songs.

And I'll pick on 'em and show 'em where that's not right or whatever.

But to actually do it, and at the end of the week of the class or whatever, we got a song.

All right, you play it.

Okay, you play it, you know?

- It seems to me a lot of songs strive for universality.

- Yeah.

- We can all relate to that.

- Sure.

- You go the opposite direction.

You're homegrown tomatoes.

You're a Randall knife.

- Yeah, those are true love songs, you know?

I mean, what else would you write about?

It's that something you knew about and you loved.

- Well, that makes perfect sense.

- Why would you write about the universe for God's sakes?

- Well, we talked briefly about Susanna.

My favorite picture of you.

Congratulations on your Grammy.

- Thank you, sir.

- And it is a fine album.

And I think stands with your best work.

- Yeah, I like that record, I like it.

- And can you talk a little bit that song?

- That particular song?

I have that picture.

I mean, it's a Polaroid that's been pinned to my wall for 25, 30 years.

A friend of mine was over to write with me one day, and a lot of people in Nashville have these hook lists, you know, and it's like page, single space type titles and one liners and you know, just on and on.

And he gave it, and he said, "Here, look at this, see if anything strikes you."

And I was going, "Oh, not another one of these."

And I was going through it and I hit this one line, it said, my favorite picture of you, and that's all it said.

And I had my finger on that line, and I just turned my head and looked up and there it was.

- Wow.

- And I have always said, that's my favorite picture of Susanna.

'Cause she was pissed.

And she's stunning, stunningly beautiful.

But Townes and I were in the house just staking in front.

And we were drunk and just being jerks, you know, and she'd seen it all and heard it all.

And she just had enough and she walked out and somebody snapped that picture of her, you know, and that's where it came from.

- Wow.

Guy Clark, thank you, it's been- - Well, thank you.

- Great pleasure.

- Well, I've enjoyed talking to you, Ken.

We must get together again.

- Unfortunately won't be at Jack's, but.

- Okay.

- Some other suitable location here in Nashville.

- How about we book the (indistinct)?

- That sounds good.

Guy Clark, thank you so much.

- Thank you, thanks.

(bright guitar music)