Funding for New Mexico in Focus is provided by: Viewers like You >> Nash: This week on New Mexico in Focus, the primaries are past and the chessboard is set in the race for the Governor's Office.

How did the two winners do it?

>> Haaland: New Mexicans want a leader who will stand up for working people, and who is ready to take on Donald Trump.

>> Hull: We will win the Roundhouse in November.

Right!?

>> Nash: Plus, 13 years later, the courtroom battle over Rio Grande water is over.

A local journalist helps us look back and ahead.

New Mexico in Focus starts now.

Thanks for joining us, I'm Nash Jones.

We are going to spend the bulk of tonight's show analyzing the primary races and looking ahead to November█s general election, but that is not all we have for you tonight.

The latest episode of Indigenously Positive is also coming your way later in the show, with a look at the healing power of skateboarding in Native communities.

We're also going to catch up on last week█s US Supreme Court decision, sealing the deal on how New Mexico and Texas will share Rio Grande water moving forward after more than a decade of litigation.

I sit down with Source New Mexico reporter Danielle Prokop, who's been following the case for years.

But first, the big ticket item of the week, the New Mexico Primary Election, in the Democratic race for governor, former Interior Secretary and Congresswoman, Deb Haaland, handed Bernalillo County District Attorney, Sam Bregman his hat in a 44 point trouncing for the ages.

She took to the gazebo on Albuquerque's Old Town Plaza Tuesday night to accept the party's nomination.

>> Haaland: I'm a single mom.

I█ve lived paycheck to paycheck.

I survived on SNAP and WIC.

I'm over 35 years sober.

[crowd cheer and applause] >> Haaland: I started school later in life and paved my own way.

These are the same struggles so many New Mexicans face today, but with the grit, creativity, and persistence that only New Mexicans know, I know a better New Mexico is possible.

[crowd cheer and applause] A New Mexico with lower costs, more accessible health care, better education, and safe communities.

>> Nash: A little later in the night at Oasis Event Center near Rio Rancho, that city's longtime former mayor, Greg Hull accepted the Republican nomination at the end of a considerably closer race, Hull beat Public Relations Executive, Doug Turner, by ten points with 47% of the vote.

Though, he left Cannabis CEO, Duke Rodriguez in a cloud of smoke would just 16%.

>> Hull: When we're talking about New Mexico right now, it█s in a declining population, we saw growth in Rio Rancho.

We need to bring that growth back to New Mexico, and that's by creating opportunity for our kids.

And we're going to work hard on that.

And we did this through common sense planning that drew national recognition!

It drew national recognition for the right reasons.

Right?!

That's what New Mexico needs right now.

New Mexico deserves that same kind of leadership from its Governor.

It's starting tonight.

That's exactly what we are headed for.

Leadership that delivers for all of New Mexico, >> Nash: To help us make sense of the Democratic and Republican races for governor, and look towards Haaland and Hull's head to head matchup in November.

We have got former Democratic state Senator Dede Feldman and Merritt Allen, a Public Relations Executive and former Republican candidate for the New Mexico House.

>> Nash: Dede, Merritt, thanks for being here.

Really appreciate your time.

Polls consistently had Haaland well ahead of Sam Bregman, but she actually won in her 44 point victory by more than what was expected.

What were some of the the big factors you feel like were at play in that race?

>> Allen: Money.

I mean -- Peter Saint-Cyr, who's just fantastic at a lot of things.

He ran the numbers and posted them just recently, I think two hours ago, $68.60 per voter for Deb Haaland.

>> Nash: Wow, and how does that compare to what Bregman was spending?

>> Allen: I think he was -- actually about the same, but she just had a lot more of it.

so they were spending about the same per vote, but she had a lot more money.

>> Nash: And there were some outside PACs coming in to fund some of the some of the advertisements.

>> Feldman: She had a lot of small contributions.

I think that a lot was made of how much money she was getting from out of state, but she actually had more contributions from New Mexico than Bregman did.

It's just that she had a larger, you know, a larger amount, a larger -- total pool of contributors.

But I don't think it was just money.

And I say that because of Deb Haaland's vast experience and reach in New Mexico from her time as a Democratic Party chair, where she visited all of 33, New Mexico's 33 counties, and also as a campaigner for Congress.

Her familiarity with the people in the metro area, they knew her.

She's got a nice manner, she's got a very gracious manner and people feel like they know her personally and also her story.

Her narrative is really hard to resist.

I mean, it's historic -- it█s compelling, and people relate to it.

I think of all kinds, not just, you know, Native Americans, but also people who believe in diversity and -- the heritage of New Mexico.

>> Nash: Absolutely.

So relationships, representation, money, but what about the policies themselves?

>> Allen: Well, I think it's -- I didn't -- I kind of rated this in a column.

And I think -- it was kind of surprising to me because if you wanted to see the status quo continue, you vote for Deb Haaland and -- >>Nash: Over Sam Bregman?

>> Allen: Yeah, and the status quo of state policy.

And if you are not thinking that New Mexico is going in the right direction, and one could certainly argue that we are not as we, hit the bottom of -- kind of every ranking for -- success in the country.

This is not working.

Now, she did break from the current administration, I think on CYFD She got handed a real win.

She and Bregman both explicitly said they would not support Medical Malpractice Reform.

So thank goodness it passed in the legislature because that would have been a real albatross for both of them in the general election.

But, you know, this will be more of the same.

And she's very, I think, oil and gas may see a real reckoning with Deb Haaland as Governor.

So -- but I think things like Universal Health Care, Universal Free Tuition, these incredibly costly programs that we see would continue under Haaland.

>> Nash: You say, more of the same, but a reckoning on oil and gas that wouldn't be more the same in terms of Lujan Grisham█s policies nor would -- >> Allen: Have you seen her Climate Action plan?

Lujan Grisham█s tough on crime policies were far more aligned with Sam Bregman█s platform -- than Haaland, who was calling for -- you know, more prevention.

>> Allen: I think the -- I think if you look at some of -- the climate mandates on the executive orders, I think we would see continued.

We would not see them rescinded.

I think -- I think many of the policies that came into play via executive order would be continued or perhaps even strengthened.

>> Nash: Well, in the Albuquerque Journal poll, it found that really the one demographic that was in favor of Bregman over Haaland were self-described conservatives.

So Dede, what do you feel like around progressive politics in this race and how that played out?

>> Feldman: Well, Deb Haaland was definitely the more progressive candidate and Bregman was much more moderate, particularly, I think, on intelligence -- artificial intelligence centers like Project Jupiter and environmental issues.

He was much more business oriented than she was.

Her focus was on families, family well-being and affordability for ordinary people like her.

And she just sort of hammered that.

Her background, as an ordinary person struggling with child care, struggling with health care, all of those things, that I think the vast majority of New Mexicans, struggle with.

And I really think she's vastly more popular than Michelle Lujan Grisham.

I think that there is no incumbent in this race.

You know, that's something that you have to -- that's the first thing to notice about it.

There was no incumbent.

So it became a little bit harder for -- for opponents of -- Deb Haaland to pretend that she was the governor.

She's not, she wasn't the Governor.

>> Nash: Something else unique about this race was that it was the first semi-open primary.

What role did the independent vote play?

>> Allen: Well, as a new independent, I was -- >> Nash: Personally, you are?

>> Allen: Yes.

I changed my registration from Republican to Independent in 2024, and I was actually somewhat active with the semi-open primary effort.

And I had served on the board of New Mexico open primaries.

So this was something that was very important to me.

>> Nash: How did it show up?

>> Nash: It was interesting to see that independents showed.

It turned out more for Democrats than Republicans.

We weren't sure that was going to turn out.

But I think that just maybe because there were more people to vote for on the Democratic ballot, since the Republican Party is in freefall, >> Nash: it's more about independents wanting to weigh in on the Democratic race than them leaning Democratic.

>> Allen: or they had more options.

You know, there wasn't that much to vote for.

So if you're a conservative, if you were a conservative leaning independent, you might not have bothered because there just wasn't much to do you had a governor candidate and that was about it.

So you might have just stayed home.

>> Feldman: Yeah, well 25% of those declined to state folks did stay home.

And it was because they didn't really know that they could vote in primaries.

It's been so long since that op-- since that option was foreclosed.

But there were 37,000 new voters.

I mean, that's a real accomplishment for New Mexico.

These are the decline to state people, 75% as merits said requested democratic ballots.

That's where the action is this time.

I think the boring side was the Republican side and the action was on the Democratic side.

So that's why they voted.

>> Nash: Well, let's talk about the Republican side-- Hall, Greg Hall, who won the Republican nomination for governor, consistently led in the polls.

But it did appear that Doug Turner was making some strides and had some momentum towards the end.

What were you all seeing in the numbers that you think pushed Hall over the edge, >> Nash: Albuquerque and Rio Rancho or essentially... the Albuquerque metro area, Sandoval, Bernalillo and Valencia counties.

That's what that's what did it for him.

And also the-- what was so interesting is the candidate, unlike the Democratic primary and the Republican primary, the candidate with the least money won they candidate with the most money came in third.

>> Nash: But arguably the most name recognition, at least in the in the Albuquerque metro area.

He is the longest serving Rio Rancho mayor.

>> Allen: $9.62 per voter spent.

>> Nash: which is comparatively much lower.

>> Allen: Yes, a minuscule amount comparatively.

And also shows, you know, you cannot win a statewide race without the Albuquerque metro.

And this is this is something that is killing RPNM >> Nash: Do you think Doug Turne discounted that, the importance of that area?

>> Allen: I think RPNM did.

Doug Turner was the establishment candidate for RPNM, even though of course state parties can endorse primary candidates.

He was the establishment candidate and he's from Albuquerque, but he could not get the traction... the state party has been very focused outside of Albuquerque and in the southeast for too long.

And this is why we have not won a statewide race since 2018.

I believe, and could not even get candidates on the ballot in significant statewide races, including U.S.

Senate.

State auditor, stat treasurer.

It's an embarrassment.

I think it's been since 2017, even.

>> Feldman: Yeah, I mean, I think that's right.

The Republican Party has become identified with rural areas, and that's not where the votes are in a statewide race.

So you have to have both.

And Doug Turner did win the East Side.

He won I think Eddie and the southwest >> Allen: And the southwest >> Nash: And the southwest >> Feldman: and the southwest to That's right.

>> Nash: what policies took center stage that you think drove that geographical difference?

>> Allen: I think it was personality and turnout much more than it was issues, because the candidates were remarkably similar on the issues.

And I thought it was so interesting about the Republican primary is the Democratic primary was actually Trump year than the Republican primary with in the attack ads and the accusations of Bregman having them, the MAGA donors, or Holland being on Epstein's plane.

And Trump showed up nowhere in the Republican primary.

>> Nash: Well, except that Doug Turner did hold a fundraiser at Mar a Lago, >> Allen: but Trump did not attend.

>> Nash: Right.

But I interviewed Turner and we were looking at the invitation for that fundraiser, and it promised him to be the America First candidate, the Trump candidate to take back New Mexico.

So but he was a little shy about aligning himself at the time.

>> Allen: Yeah.

And I know, I know Doug and he is not a MAGA candidate.

And you know in their conversations with each other in their talk about the issues, you know, we did not see 2A we did not see abortion.

>> Nash: the second amendment?

>> Allen: Right.

We did not see the typical national emotional kneejerk litmus tests that tend to kind of tear Republicans apart.

We thought we heard about education.

We heard about medical malpractice or, you know, keeping our doctors here.

Yeah, we heard about the real issues that mattered to New Mexicans.

And, man, I was here for it.

It was great.

>> Nash: Well, let's look ahead to the general a little bit.

We're seeing a race between Holland and Hull, as well as independent candidate Ken Miyashita, the longtime mayor of Las Cruces will be in that race.

What will that race look like?

What would be the big issues?

>> Feldman: Well, I again, I don't think issues are going to be >> Nash: I'm trying to.

I keep trying to bring us back to policy.

But you don't think that that matters?

>> Feldman: Because personalities and the national scene, Trump what's happening with Trump.

That was a big factor in the Democratic primary.

Who could who could be most anti-Trump.

And you even had, you know, lieutenant governors and Secretary of state's and all those races which, you know, are focused on much narrower subject matter doing that.

But I think what's going to happen in the general is that Greg Hull Greg Hull is in a really tough position now with somebody that won by a landslide 75% of the vote.

He's got to get out there and raise money real quick to even wage a competitive campaign.

And his strength is that he is perceived as nonpartisan.

He's perceived as sort of your chamber of Commerce Republican, not a Maga Republican so much, although he may go in that direction now, we don't know.

But and that's the that's the position, I think, that any minority party is in.

You're going to you can't run against the Democrats when they have such a huge majority.

You have to run as a nonpartisan, good government, kind of I can work with everybody candidate.

I think that's what we're going to see from him.

>> Nash: Generally in general elections compared to the primaries is, you know, when people stop talking just to their base and start talking to everyone.

Candidates tend to move towards the middle.

Do you see Holland or Hole doing that in the general election?

>> Allen: In the in the past it's been you know, a Republican primary where everyone fights to be the most orthodox and the farthest right.

Well, that didn't happen this time.

So I don't think Hull really has to move toward the middle.

>> Nash: He doesn't have room to move to middle?

>> Allen: Well, he doesn't need to.

>> Feldman: He's already there.

>> Allen: He's already pretty there.

Haaland will have to move toward the middle because she can't run as a real progressive, I don't think.

>> Nash: even in New Mexico's current climate?

>> Allen: No, Because we still have a lot of pro-business Democrats and we have I think she's going to have to get those folks to turn out, because the primary is not the same as the general, and she's got to pick up... and she's got to pick up independence.

Now, the problem for, for Hull is he's got to get Republicans to turn out.

And Republicans are tired of Trump.

Trump is Trump is not popular period.

And Trump doesn't win in New Mexico.

So we've got to have the folks you know, RPNM... the thing I'm concerned about is because Hull is not the RPNM candidate that the money and the folks that power RPNM might not back him.

We saw that happen- >> Nash: So the money that Dede is saying needs to come in.

It might not come.

>> Allen: Right because that was going to go to Turner.

And we saw this happen in the Albuquerque mayor's race because Darren White was not-- he was in a different faction because it's so clickish and the Republican Party, he was, kind of, in the Susana Martinez... faction, hired Jay McCluskey.

That set off a whole group of Republicans, powerful Republicans and Republican who backed Democrat Louie Sanchez instead.

So if the powers that be decide they don't want to back Hull, folks will stay home.

>> Nash: All right.

Let's meet back here to talk about the other races.

I appreciate you all weighing in on the governor's races.

>> Prokop: New Mexicans and Texans paid for the building of Elephant Butte Dam way back in 1906.

And that's the percentage of New Mexican farmers, 57 -- they paid for 57% of the dam, and 43% in Texas.

So that's why the water is being split that way.

The problem was a lot of this is about handshakes and old handshakes and people disputing over who shook whose hand.

So now it's official.

It's written in the doctrine that this is how the water is going to be shared.

>> Nash: Catch that conversation with Source New Mexico's Danielle Prokop, in about 15 minutes.

And thanks to Merritt Allen and Dede Feldman for helping us dissect the Primary contests in the race for governor.

Like you, we will have an eye towards November starting -- well, now.

The push for the Governor's mansion understandably gets the most ink in airtime.

But races for Lieutenant Governor, Secretary of State, Land Commissioner and seats in the State Legislature carry plenty of weight in the Democratic pageant that determines how New Mexicans are governed, too.

Not to mention, what could be another heated Congressional contest in the second District.

All of that and more confronted you when you put pen to ballot for the Primary.

Merritt Allen and Dede Feldman stuck around to join me for a discussion about what else we learned from the results on Tuesday night, here's that conversation.

>> Nash: Welcome back to the table.

Let's start at the top of the ballot as we're talking about some of these other races Only two contested races for Congress.

Democratic Senator Ben Ray Lujan, handily beat Democratic Socialist Matt Dodson, he'll face a Republican write-in candidate who got enough votes to appear on the ballot.

That's Larry Marker in November.

On the Republican side for Congressional District two, that's the Southern District.

Greg Cunningham bested Jose Orozco.

He actually had dropped out of the race in April.

So that's not all that surprising.

but let█s look at the general election.

Cunningham will face two-term Democratic Representative Gabe Vasquez.

This is kind of the one seat in recent memory.

You were talking about how consistently Democrats have won.

That was held by a Republican Yvette Herell of 2021 to 2023.

So what are Cunningham's chances?

And he also boasts the endorsement from President Trump.

>> Allen: Well, in a pre-redistricting, that endorsement might go very far.

But the way that has been gerrymandered, I don't think it will matter.

I don't think it will help.

Trump does not win in New Mexico -- New Mexico is not a Trump state.

And the way CD2 has been tortured into this new Hydra thing -- >> Nash: And that was to redraw it to include Albuquerque's South Valley and some of the -- >> Allen: Right, and split Roswell into three different districts is just ridiculous.

>> Nash: And it was found to be constitutional.

You mentioned gerrymandering, but it was redistricted.

>> Feldman: It was upheld.

>> Nash: It was upheld in the courts.

But Gabe Vasquez has won both times since it was redrawn.

>> Allen: Right.

>> Nash: And you think that that that will be challenging?

>> Allen: I'm just very -- I served on the independent redistricting commission, and I -- I do not support that map, but it's the map that said, Trump is not going to play well in CD2, and I think Cunningham would be smarter to run on his record, to run on the issues and Hit the doors, you know, knock on doors and tell his story and tell, you know, shared story as a viable alternative.

Unfortunately, congressional Republicans are not showing well right now.

And I think that may not help him.

You know, this has not been a strong Congress.

Things have not gotten done.

And I think voters are going to want to see a change.

>> Nash: Right.

What about the lieutenant governor contest?

That was a contested seat in both primaries termed out.

Secretary of State Maggie Toulouse Oliver bested Senator Harold Pope Jr.

with 80% of the vote, so a total blowout.

He was arguably the more progressive candidate compared to Toulouse Oliver.

So differing from the governor's race on the Democratic side in that way.

What do you make of that, Dede?

>> Feldman: Well, I think I think Maggie Toulouse Oliver had so much name recognition from Secretary of State and County clerk here in Bernalillo County that there was no way anyone was going to topple her.

I was disappointed that Stephanie, Stephanie Garcia Richard had to drop out of that race.

I thought that would have been a much more interesting race, and probably Maggie would not have run.

But they're both progressives.

They're both progressives.

Pope as well as Maggie.

And >> Nash: What impact do you think Toulouse Oliver will have on the Haalland ticket?

>> Feldman: w Well, it's hard to say.

I mean, it's hard to say what impact the lieutenant governor has on any governor.

I mean, and I think those lieutenant governors who who realize that the position is just a formality, fight to have a say in cabinent.

>> Nash: Even somebody with the name recognition that Toulouse Oliver has that you're mentioning someone with that much clout in New Mexico Democratic politics.

Do you think that'll mean that maybe she has a more sizable role than usual for lieutenant governor?

>> Feldman: Yes, I think so.

But, you know, the thing is, Diane Dennis was was a strong lieutenant governor with Richardson, but she had to fight for her spot at the table, and she had to put forward policies like a children's cabinet post and a new department for early childhood.

She did that.

Maggie will have to carve out some of those issues for herself.

She's already carved out voting rights and has made a huge contribution to the state there.

I think that she will need to also go in other directions.

>> Nash: Let's look at the lieutenant governor race on the Republican side.

David Gallegos won over Blair Dunn and Manny Sabal.

What does Senator Gallegos bring to the whole ticket?

>> Allen: Well, he certainly brings a legislative experience.

and the lieutenant governor does preside over the state Senate.

I always liked Aubrey Dunn, but he, you know, had aligned himself with Rodriguez, Duke Rodriguez.

So they were he was only going to run if Rodriguez ran.

And that seemed odd.

I think Gallegos will be a fine candidate.

I don't know that there's a lot of influence that you have on a governor's race.

You kind of run your own ads, but, you know, to that point, it's just being aspirational to run for governor in 4 or 8 years.

>> Nash: Well, speaking of Toulouse Olvier, she's turned out so her secretary of state's office was an open seat that was contested on the Democratic side between Doña Ana County Clerk Amanda Ló pez Askin, who pulled it out over Santa Fe County Clerk Katherine Clark.

Why did López Askin resonate more with some of the establishment Democrats?

She got the endorsement of Toulouse Oliver as well as Governor Lujan Grisham.

>> Feldman: and she got a lot of money to at the end there from special interest, from the trial lawyers, from from legislators.

>> Nash: Why do you think that is?

>> Feldman: I think that Katheri Clark was independent.

She was seen to be independent and could not be controlled by kind of the establishment Democrats.

And that was a minus for her in that race.

So I'm sorry that she lost because I thought, well, I thought both candidates were very well qualified.

Both our county clerk's both ran a good shops in their in their respective counties.

But Katherine was not able to pull it out because she had some enemies within the within the Democratic Party.

>> Nash: c And what do we expect in November as she faces Ramona Goolsby, who ran unopposed on the Republican side?

>> Allen: Well, you know, I would echo Dede█s comments about Clark, and independence is certainly something you want in a in a secretary of state, not unlike an attorney general.

Goolsby, I think, certainly brings good qualifications to the race.

I think, again, it will be a challenge.

I can't emphasize enough the dysfunction at RPNM right now.

All I can say is we may again have a chairman, since of course, the drama over the chairman who disqualified herself over violating RPNM█s own bylaws by being a contested candidate in a primary, is again perhaps qualified since she lost her own contested primary.

So, Amy.

Amy Barela may again be chairwoman or qualified.

I don't know.

I mean, what time is it?

>> Feldman: Well, you know, I think, though, if Mandy Askin asked one of the key questions she needs to ask Goolsby is, are you an election denier?

Do you believe that Biden won the 2020 election?

And I would be very interested to see what she says, because her reputation is as an election denier.

>> Allen: And that's that is a valid concern.

>> Nash: I want to move us on to the Commissioner of Public Lands race.

This was one that a lot of people were watching on the Democratic side.

Why was that?

Briefly, and what do you all see for coming up in November?

>> Feldman: Well, the Commissioner of Public Lands is a underrated office that has a tremendous amount of power over state lands in New Mexico, of which there are many and most candidates for land commissioners spend the first 15 minutes of any speech explaining what the office is and why it's important.

So it is important, and it's particularly important.

Now, Matthew McQueen faced one.

Sanchez, one.

Sanchez, one.

Sanchez.

Yes.

There were three candidates there.

One pulled it off quite handily.

A great deal of money flowed into his campaign in the last month from out of state.

One superPAC or one PAC was actually got the majority of money from Chevron and Devon Energy companies.

Another is a superPAC out of Virginia that did not disclose its donors or expenditures as required by state law.

And I actually filed a ethics complaint against that particular PAC.

>> Nash: And in what came of that?

>> Feldman: Nothing.

It's not going to be heard until two weeks from now.

So so basically, nothing has come of it.

But I just wanted to mention that, >> Nash: of course, thanks for doing that.

And Sanchez will face Republican Michael Perry, who ran unopposed.

Any any thoughts about November?

>> Allen: c Perry has a great experience.

He's been a game warden.

He's been an assistant commissioner at the land office, so he knows this.

>> Nash: well let me ask you thi What influence does it have on Perry's chances that we have two of the most recently successful Republicans in New Mexico now serving in Trump's Interior Department.

We've got BLM Director Steve Pearce Yvette Harrell is also serving as an assistant secretary in the US.

D.A.

does that Does that influence this race and a Republicans chances in New Mexico in this landscape?

>> Allen: I don't know if just because the land commissioner, the race itself is kind of obscure and I don't know if that is going if that is going to get into it now, certainly he may get money for it and he may get some visibility for it.

And so I think, you know, the relative lack of knowledge because this is a newcomer is a Democratic opponent.

I think if it were Perry versus McQueen, it would be a much tougher race.

I think actually Perry has a shot at this one, but I don't know that Harrell and Pearce have as much of an impact, except I think RPNM will put money behind this one because it's such an important office to the oil and gas industry.

>> Nash: Go ahead.

>> Feldman: and the Democrats will fight it very hard too, because they see a threat to public lands in general coming from Washington.

And so they will they will support Juan Sanchez.

He's a staffer from Heinrich and I >> Nash: who endorsed him?

>> Feldman: Yeah, who endorsed him and who will help him.

I think in terms of fundraising again.

And that's going to be a race to watch, I think.

>> Nash: All right.

Well we'll be watching.

Thank you all so much.

>> Archie: There's people that have -- that don't even skateboard, are making skate parks in their community because they see the positive benefit of it.

One grandma, she brought her daughter to the event in Whitehorse, and they drove four hours to get there to bring their granddaughter -- super special.

And she was like, “oh yeah, she just skates at the basketball court, like outside the school.” And I told her, “that's where I started.” >> Nash: For more on how native skaters are bringing their traditions and creating new ones at the skate park, catch the latest episode of Indigenously Positive in about 15 minutes.

So, a 13 year legal fight over water rights and access to the lower Rio Grande has finally come to a close.

The US Supreme Court, last week approved a deal between New Mexico, Texas, Colorado and the federal government.

The dispute started when Texas accused New Mexico of violating the Rio Grande Compact.

A nearly 90 year old agreement between both states.

It's an important and complicated water story, and it's one that reporter Danielle Prokop has followed for years for multiple news organizations, most recently her home at Source New Mexico.

This week, she helps us understand the newly approved settlement and what it means for the river and New Mexico farmers.

>> Nash: Danielle, thanks so much for being here.

>> Prokop: Thanks for having me, Nash.

So, before we get into the agreement itself and what's been agreed to.

Can you give our viewers a little bit of background?

Like, what is the Rio Grande Compact?

>> Prokop: Absolutely.

It's a 1939 agreement between three states, New Mexico, Texas and Colorado, which share the Rio Grande█s waters between them.

And it was ratified by Congress, which is how all interstate waters are governed in the United States.

This agreement has requirements for water to pass across state lines and at one point into Elephant Butte, in order to make sure that each state is getting its appropriate amount of water.

>> Nash: Okay.

And what were the issues that were taken with how the states were sharing this water?

>> Prokop: Oh, man.

If there's water, it's -- being fought over.

And that is so true on the Rio Grande.

There were a series of lawsuits all over the place between irrigation districts and counties, state governments and counties, the state governments against each other in these overlapping disputes over water on the Rio Grande for a long time.

These really kicked up in the 1990s in a drought period, after we had some good rains in the 90s.

But then there was a drought period in the early 2000, and that really kicked up the intensity of water litigation -- >> Nash: Once there wasn't enough to go around, then when people started fighting.

>> Prokop: That's right.

Scarcity -- Scarcity breeds litigation when it comes to water, But -- what happened here is that there was an agreement that two irrigation districts, one in Texas, one in southern New Mexico, and the federal government came to and New Mexico's Attorney General at the time, Gary King, in 2011, said that New Mexico was being shorted its water and sued -- the federal government in federal court.

And Texas then escalated that in 2013 and took it to the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court has original jurisdiction over these interstate water disagreements, because it's the only court in America that can decide problems between the states.

>> Nash: Okay, so New Mexico was suing the federal government.

Texas sued New Mexico.

But these alliances kind of, “who was against who” didn't stay stagnant throughout this 13 year period.

So how did that shift around over time?

>> Prokop: It was a serious dosey-doe, really.

Texas accused New Mexico of groundwater pumping and using water for irrigation, Southern New Mexico to the detriment of Texas, saying that we owed them tens of thousands of acre feet.

We're talking billions of dollars, potentially in damages.

And the requirement that New Mexico provides that water, it's an important part of water litigation.

The federal government joined the lawsuit in 2019.

The Supreme Court allowed them to join as a party -- >> Nash: Even though they're not part of the Compact?

>> Prokop: That's right.

It's completely unusual.

It's never happened in water law before, but because the federal government operates important infrastructure there.

Elephant Butte Dam, the very first reclamation dam, the series of canals, they deliver water to the irrigation districts in Mexico.

The Supreme Court agreed that they have a unique interest.

So it was Texas and the federal government arguing that New Mexico's pumping and groundwater use was harming their interests on the Rio Grande.

>> Nash: Okay.

Well -- a settlement has now been reached.

The Supreme Court has accepted that agreement.

What did the justices have to say?

>> Prokop: Yeah, this is the second time that this has happened.

The first time everyone came to the bargaining table, the federal government felt left out.

They felt that the agreement that Texas and New Mexico had worked out to fix the issues -- of making the water measurable at the border, for example, sharing water agreements, agreeing to drought conditions, those were unacceptable to the federal government and the two irrigation districts down there.

>> Nash: And so that was back in, what, 2024?

The Supreme Court declined to accept this agreement.

>> Prokop: That's right.

>> Nash: Now they've accepted it.

>> Prokop: A new agreement, that's right.

>> Nash: And what's -- why did they like this one?

>> Prokop: Well, first and foremost -- the federal government likes the agreement.

They came to the table.

And all parties have agreed that this agreement fixes the problems of the usage of water in Southern New Mexico and West Texas.

>> Nash: Okay.

Well, let's get into how it fixes that.

So the settlement set out new rules for how New Mexico and Texas will share water.

Let's start with irrigation water.

How will the state split that up?

>> Prokop: That's right, so -- New Mexico and Texas are going to now have a -- they have agreed to a 5,743% split.

This is a little weedy, but it's because New Mexicans and Texas paid for the building of Elephant Butte Dam -- way back in 1906, and that's the percentage of New Mexican farmers, 57.

They paid for 57% of the dam and 43% in Texas.

So that's why the water is being split that way.

>> Nash: So New Mexico gets the lion's share.

It gets the majority.

>> Prokop: That's right.

>> Nash: Okay.

And how was it being shared before?

>> Prokop: It was also in this informal 57-43 split.

But the problem was a lot of this is about handshakes and old handshakes and people disputing over who shook whose hand.

So now it's official.

It's written in the doctrine that this is how the water is going to be shared.

And also there are agreements for drought sharing.

If, say, New Mexico shorts Texas on the amount of water we're supposed to send at the state line, then we can ask to borrow it from -- you know, we can ask these irrigation districts to ship it on using their canals across the state line.

>> Nash: All right, and now what about groundwater?

You mentioned that that was a huge sticking point in this lawsuit over the years.

What has New Mexico agreed to change about how it pumps groundwater?

>> Prokop: Yeah.

So -- the hard part is that groundwater and irrigation water are so connected in this region of the river, when your water is flowing downhill, even above stream and underground.

And so when we're pumping the argument that Texas, of course, are making and the federal government is that when New Mexico was pumping groundwater, it was then taking water that was filling up in the river that would then fill up our depleted aquifers.

So these interconnected relationships between groundwater and irrigation water are kind of complex and also kind of simple if you're taking water, right, like people think you might be taking the water that's owed to them.

Anyway, so all this to say, is that New Mexico does have an agreement to reduce the amount of water being used in the lower Rio Grande.

That's by a number.

Its 18,200 acre feet by the next decade.

That's a lot of water.

>> Nash: So what would that mean locally?

How would that impact show up?

>> Prokop: Okay, this is -- this is something that the state has been working on for a while, so after talking to the Interstate Stream Commission Director, Hannah Riesling White, she mentioned that the state has worked on programs to fallow irrigation land, to buy out irrigation, to buy out irrigation rights, and trying to -- We're also trying to track how much water is being pumped for either irrigation farming or for smaller municipal uses.

>> Nash: So is it not known how much is being pumped?

>> Prokop: It's -- there are good estimates, but you know, the state wants to measure this almost to the drop, right?

We're wanting more accuracy with every drop counting on the Compact.

The state wants to know where every drop is going.

>> Nash: And where -- as every drop going, in terms of what it was pumping, the state.

If it has to reduce this by what, 18,000 acre feet.

Who█s going to feel the brunt of that?

>> Prokop: It's likely going to be agriculture.

Agriculture is the biggest user of water on the Rio Grande.

Generally speaking even though it's an important source of water for places like Albuquerque and El Paso.

They get their drinking water from there.

Not nearly as much pull as agriculture does.

>> Nash: Okay.

And you mentioned when you explain what the Rio Grande Compact is, that it's not just Texas and New Mexico.

Colorado has also been a part of this Compact.

How do they plug into this agreement, if at all?

>> Prokop: They're you know, they were present during the litigation.

They were mentioned in the lawsuit, which made it a little confusing, I think, for folks watching from the outside.

But the real dispute here was in southern New Mexico and Texas.

So, you know, Colorado is just one of the folks just trying to make sure that this river is split equitably because their farmers care about it, too.

>> Nash: Any other key agreements or new rules that New Mexicans should be aware of?

>> Prokop: Yeah, there -- there was this sort of no man's land of southern New Mexico before under the Compact because everything put into Elephant Butte, which is 100 miles from the state line -- about was considered Compact Texas, so southern New Mexico in some ways -- >> Nash: So once you got below Elephant Butte, you were in Texas.

>> Prokop: You were in Texas, according to the Compact, not according to any maps but now there is this agreement and acknowledgment of southern New Mexico through ensuring that 57, that 57-43% split and also checking that what water is being delivered into Elephant Butte is going to be checked again at the El Paso state, like at the El Paso gauge, which is right at the Texas New Mexico state line.

>> Nash: Okay, so lining it up more with what the maps show, >> Prokop: What the maps show, and also how it's done.

We do that between New Mexico and Colorado >> Nash: Okay.

Well, in statements, both Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham and Attorney General Raul Torres said, that reaching the settlement will save New Mexicans tons of money.

In the governor's words, “billions of dollars.” For folks who maybe don't understand why this would save money.

Like what was the financial risk?

The liability risk at play?

>> Prokop: It's really hard to put a number on that.

At the very beginning -- Again, there was this concern of tens of thousands of acre feet, and there was this understanding that because of the way water law is done, the Supreme Court could agree make New Mexico pay damages if they found New Mexico was at fault for taking Texas water.

So we wouldn't just have to pay back wet water, we would have to pay damages.

And that was an estimate of at one point in time in early 2013, over $1 billion.

We've spent between New Mexico and Texas.

We spent tens of millions of dollars in litigation.

>> Nash: I was going to ask that because, yes, it's a settlement is saving potential damage costs, but a lot has been spent over the years on this case, a 13 year case, including on outside legal counsel.

Can you break down what the what the bill has been for this?

>> Prokop: I need some more recent data.

But you know, we did we did track that there was at one point tens of millions of dollars being spent on outside counsel in New Mexico, and that Texas was spending way more.

Right.

Like sometimes, you know -- many times more than New Mexico on this case in terms of their outside counsel.

And there was a concern that because Texas has bigger coffers, could they outspend New Mexico on these kinds of things?

There's a couple of really important reasons why a settlement was so important, not just to the attorneys, but to all of the parties watching this case, because water is water, especially the Rio Grande has been fought over for a long time.

This section of the Rio Grande in particular.

And so they said that the best chance of staying out of court is by making a settlement.

And so even though the costs of attorneys are a lot, there is another concern that the costs of losing a case like this would be even higher for New Mexico.

>> Nash: So New Mexico really had to dig in if they were the David to Texas█ Goliath throughout this.

>> Prokop: That's definitely how it seemed.

And there were some real concerns from people who've watched this case over, it's, over, it's more than decade long tenure through the court that they were really concerned for what New Mexico would be on the hook for, wet water wise and money wise.

>> Nash: Alright, well, the settlement has been accepted it's in place.

Yeah.

What concerns, if any, remain?

>> Nash: The next question is what do you do when you need to stop pumping?

Who has to stop pumping?

Those questions remain.

All of Las Cruces is on groundwater, and even though there are older rights to agriculture, I think that those policy discussions are going to be a big element -- >> Nash: Do those happen at the municipal level?

Are we talking to the city council or the mayor of Las Cruces that would weigh in to something like that?

>> Prokop: The city of Las Cruces actually hired counsel to represent them in this case.

NMSU also has its own groundwater rights in the area, right for its own agriculture studies, but also the campus itself.

This is impacting entire regional crops like pecan growers had their own counsel in this case, and irrigators on chili and onion farms.

So there's a real question for what comes next in the lower Rio Grande.

There's not as much water.

>> Nash: Okay.

And then what about enforcement of these agreements if the state has agreed to this?

And obviously you're saying there's going to be some push and pull on the local level of who who has to stop pumping and who this is going to hit the hardest, but who oversees that people are actually following through with what they've agreed to.

>> Prokop: That's going to be the office of the State Engineer and the New Mexico Interstate Stream Commission.

These two water bodies are going to be really important and critical in implementing this stuff.

They've received, you know, a $22 million from the last legislative session to implement agreements on buying out land and putting in more monitoring in the lower Rio Grande.

They have $40 million from the federal government that they got through the Infrastructure -- Inflation Reduction Act, my apologies, to implement the settlement to pay farmers or buy water rights or do this kind of work, it's going to be expensive.

And the state says that they're willing to do the work on it.

>> Nash: Danielle Prokop, thank you so much.

>> Prokop: Thank you, Nash.

>> Nash: Thanks to Source NM's Danielle Prokop, for coming on to share her wealth of knowledge about the Rio Grande Compact and what she's looking out for next.

For many of the attendees at the 18th annual All Nations Skate Jam, skateboarding is about practicing wellness and cultivating a strong community.

And because it's intergenerational, it's also a way to share traditional beliefs and teachings in a way that's attractive to young people.

For the latest installment of Indigenously Positive, our collaboration with nonprofit Newsroom, New Mexico in Depth correspondent Bella Davis, and Benjamin Yazza, who produces and directs the series, take us to Los Altos Skate Park in Albuquerque.

There, they learned that the skate jam is about more than kickflips ollies and board slides.

It's also about healing.

>>Shawn: Skateboarding means in Dinétah-- On Diné land, It means prosperity, means resilience and also -- Yeah, get out and get some sunshine -- breathe, use your -- physical abilitie to move and get out and enjoy life.

>>Bella: For a lot of the folks who came to the 18th annual All Nations Skate Jam in Albuquerque, skateboarding is about practicing wellness and celebrating community.

>>Todd: The difference between having an Indigenous skate event and just a regular skate event is, is that the kids get to highlight their traditions.

We start out the the whole event with a ceremony in the beginning with some of our traditions.

You know, we drum and honor song.

We have a prayer.

We we smudge everyone down here in the park and we just try to, you know, to keep those traditions and how we should act towards each other because of our, you know, our native teachings going here.

And a cool thing is, is that they they listen because they're they're just talking to some skateboarder again, and they don't think of us as an elder trying or, you know, someone trying to teach them another lesson.

>>Tony: That█s real skateboarding!

>>Shawn: Yeah!

Alva!

>>Tony: Real skateboarding!

>>Shawn: Yes, sir.

>>Tony: Stay on the board, We don't need to concave or kick in the nose.

>>Shawn: No, sir.

>>Tony: Wear your helmet.

>>Shawn: Wear you helmet.

Do your thing and shred it, Tony Alva right here bro.

>>Tony: That's what we do.

>>Shawn: That█s what we do.

Legend.

Keeping it real.

Love you.

Yes.

Dude, it's so sick.

>>Cody: I'm still stoked about seeing how many people actually showed up to come out today.

They came all over the place.

We talked to a guy that came from Phoenix.

Like I said, people that came from Canada, which is amazing.

I even got some local homies from Farmington, New Mexico as well.

I'm also performing.

We came from Ignacio, Colorado.

>>Jadyn: It's definitely awesome seeing people wear indigenous stuff because it's like, you got to like you got to show off.

Basically, you have to show off.

There's nothing wrong with showing off.

because like, you know, it's a Saturday.

Got nothing else to do.

So it's like to spend a Saturday doing something else besides just staying on the campus all day.

You know, I do this more as just a just a side hobby, but I enjoy it.

It got me into it because it's just like when I was younger, it was always like it was cool to see other people do that.

>>Rose: Yeah, there's people that have that don't even skateboard, that are making skate parks in their community because they see the positive benefit of it.

One grandma, she brought her daughter to the event in White Horse, and they drove four hours to get there to bring their granddaughter-- super special.

And she was like, oh yeah, she just skates at the basketball court, like outside the school.

And I told her that's where I started.

Our community was going through lots and lots, and every time I grabbed my skateboard, I would feel that freedom.

>>Bella: Rose is one of the founders of an organization called Nation Skate Youth that hosts skating lessons and other educational events all around North America.

Growing up in her First Nations community, skateboarding did a lot for her mental well-being, and she wants to bring that to young native people today.

>>Cody: Honestly, it's like in both worlds because I feel like our mind is different.

We all work with our own ability of skateboarding.

Such as like when you grab a pencil, everyone has a different type of writing, a different font.

So us skateboarders all have a different type of style, different way of skating.

We don't have to be all good at it as long as you just know how to ride.

And in my opinion, us skaters, we're not much of a hater.

We love we love this stuff and we're just happy that guys are on it and it's away from the bad world.

I feel like especially for the youth, this has bring a lot of happiness to their life.

I think that's the cool part about it brings happiness to me.

And I'm 30 >>Rose: When I'm talking to non-Indigenous skaters, I'm always advocating for whose land are you on, like and I think that's so important to tell the youth, too.

Like, like when you show up at a skate park, like, that's that's you.

You're connected to that land more than anybody.

So there's still communities that are still trying to get skate parks and, yeah, I think there needs to be more conversations of how how to advocate for those where to get the funding and not make it so expensive.

>>Bella: To give you an idea of money we're talking about here, The Albuquerque park where the event was held is 35,000ft█.

Depending on where in the country you are building, skate parks can cost an average of 50 to $75 per square foot, according to one estimate.

At that rate, a park the same size as Los Altos could cost $2.5 million.

>>Kristean: No, he brings us here because this is not my world.

It is the culture and the people and how he grew up here and with like, everybody, kind of like raising him.

So it's cool to raise the next generation in that because it is another family.

It seems like.

We have to let our youth teach us, our youth, our babies, and technically we're babies to them.

And so we have to be like, trust us-- This is the right decision because the elders have the wisdom, but the youth have the mobility and the the thoughts.

And that's what it's really important on bridging that together-- and that's where young elders and all elders, it's important to be here and to hold the space in a healthy manner as well.

>>Cody: My grandma thinks it's crazy.

She loves it.

She thinks it's really neat.

She remembers growing up from coming from the Rez area and then going to California, and then seeing this actually come into ability.

She thought it was pretty cool.

She thinks it's a fast travel for people who can't walk.

>>Todd: It's just cool to see because we can-- We got to allow our youth to express their traditions.

You know, traditions didn't just start on day one when creator made the first man.

Traditions have evolved throughout the years.

So, you know, to say, well, that's not traditional.

You can't really say that because our traditions have evolved from way back in the day to now, and they're going to evolve from here on up.

And this this is becoming a new tradition because they're making it their own, you know, and they they can put their teachings or symbols on their board or on their outfits.

And we're here and not be in a traditional ceremony or powwow setting.

>> Nash: A huge thanks to New Mexico in Depth█s Bella Davis, and our own Benjamin Yazza for their work bringing Indigenously Positive to the air and everyone else who contributed to the show.

If you're looking for more from us here at New Mexico in Focus, find us on YouTube and the PBS app, or subscribe to our weekly newsletter delivered to your email each Friday with some additional insights into what you'll find here on the show.

For New Mexico PBS, I'm Nash Jones, until next week, stay focused.

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