♪ THEME MUSIC ♪ >>GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

FROM OUR HOME STUDIOS, I'M DAVID DUMKE.

>>AND I'M KATIE CORONADO, WELCOME.

TODAY, WE HAVE WITH US A VERY SPECIAL GUEST, A FRIEND, AND AN EXPERT IN MIDDLE EAST STUDIES.

HE IS DR. HAKAN OZOGLU, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AND DIRECTOR OF MIDDLE EAST STUDIES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CENTRAL FLORIDA, WHO HAS A NEW BOOK THAT WE'D LOVE TO HEAR ABOUT.

IT'S CALLED, THE DECLINE OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE AND THE RISE OF THE TURKISH REPUBLIC: OBSERVATIONS OF AN AMERICAN DIPLOMAT 1919 THROUGH 1927.

TELL US ABOUT YOUR BOOK, AND WELCOME DR. OZOGLU.

>>IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE YOUR GUEST, AND IT'S NICE TO SEE MY OLD FRIENDS THERE.

WELL, LET ME TELL YOU A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE BOOK.

I'M VERY PROUD OF THIS BOOK, THIS IS MY THIRD ONE, BUT THIS IS THE ONE THAT I WORKED PROBABLY 12 YEARS, THE LONGEST.

IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT BOOK IN MY OPINION, BECAUSE IT USES PRIMARY DOCUMENTS TO DESCRIBE A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME IN WHICH A MAJOR ISLAMIC EMPIRE NAMELY, THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE COLLAPSED, AND MANY DIFFERENT MIDDLE EASTERN STATES EMERGED.

THE BOOK DEALS WITH THE COLLAPSE OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE AND THE EMERGENCE OF THE TURKISH REPUBLIC AS A SECULAR STATE.

THE REASON I AM PROUD OF IT IS THAT I HAVE WORKED ON THE MEMOIRS AND THE REPORTS THAT IS SENT BY AN AMERICAN DIPLOMAT/A NAVAL OFFICER DURING THIS TUMULTUOUS TIME FROM CONSTANTINOPLE OR ISTANBUL TO WASHINGTON DC, THAT SET THE TONE OF US TURKISH RELATIONS THAT CONTINUES TODAY.

SO IN THAT SENSE, IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT BOOK.

IT DEALS WITH A PERIOD IN WHICH MANY BLOODY EVENTS TOOK PLACE THAT SOMEHOW CREATED MANY NARRATIVES BY COMPETING SOURCES THAT TODAY WHEN WE DISCUSS.

BUT IN MY OPINION, WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT IS THAT THIS AMERICAN NAVAL OFFICER WHO WAS STATIONED FROM 1919 TO 1927, WAS AN AVID NOTE TAKER.

AND THEN WHAT HE WROTE, IN MY OPINION, WOULD CONTRIBUTE GREATLY TO THE DISCUSSIONS OF POST WORLD WAR I US TURKISH RELATIONS.

>>SO LET ME ASK A LITTLE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE AND THE UNITED STATES WERE ON DIFFERENT SIDES DURING WORLD WAR I, AND AFTER WORLD WAR I FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, EMERGING FROM WHAT WAS LEFT OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE WAS THE TURKISH REPUBLIC UNDER ATATURK.

YOU HAD EUROPEAN COUNTRIES WHO WERE OCCUPYING PART OF TURKEY AT THE TIME.

SO WHAT WERE SOME OF THE EVENTS THAT REALLY, I GUESS NOT ONLY THAT THE ADMIRAL COVERED, BUT KIND OF SURPRISED YOU IN HOW HE ANALYZED THEM?

>>THE WAY HE ANALYZED THEM IS QUITE DIFFERENT THAN HIS PREDECESSORS.

KEEP IN MIND, HE'S A NAVAL OFFICER APPOINTED THERE AS A HIGH COMMISSIONER, SINCE THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE WAS AT WAR SINCE 1917 ONWARDS WITH THE UNITED STATES, THE DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WERE CUT UNTIL 1927.

SO HIS OBSERVATIONS ARE IMPORTANT MAINLY BECAUSE IT GIVES US CLUES ABOUT THE COMPETITION IN CONSTANTINOPLE, AMONG THE ALLIED FORCES AND THEIR DIPLOMATS.

IT ALSO SIGNALS US THAT THERE WAS, WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS THAT, UNEASY MOMENTS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND GREAT BRITAIN IN TERMS OF HOW TO PROCEED IN DIVIDING THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.

THE UNITED STATES WAS OUTSIDE OF THE SECRET NEGOTIATIONS, AND THAT'S WHY UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVES WERE MORE TRUSTED IN TERMS OF SHARING INFORMATION BY THE OTTOMAN AND LATER TURKISH REPUBLICAN OFFICERS.

SO WHAT WE HAVE IN THIS BOOK, THAT WHAT I AM MOST PROUD OF, IS THESE CONVERSATIONS THAT ADMIRAL BRISTOL HAD WITH THE OTTOMAN OFFICERS, MINISTERS, AND LATER ON, THE TURKISH MINISTERS IN TURKISH REPUBLICAN PERIOD, SO THAT WE COULDN'T FIND THESE THINGS IN BRITISH ARCHIVES, FOR EXAMPLE, BECAUSE THEY WERE MORE CANDID WITH THE UNITED STATES.

IN THAT SENSE, WHAT HE REPORTS TO WASHINGTON, TO STATE DEPARTMENT IN MANY CASES ARE VERY CONTROVERSIAL.

SO THIS BOOK IS ACTUALLY VERY CONTROVERSIAL TOO, BECAUSE THE PERSON THE BOOK IS ABOUT, IS VERY CONTROVERSIAL IN TERMS OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND THE GREEK POPULATION OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.

BUT MORE SO THIS BOOK IS NOT ABOUT THE GENOCIDE, THIS BOOK IS ABOUT WHAT HE REPORTED AND CERTAIN CHAPTERS, FOR EXAMPLE, WE SEE THAT HE TALKS ABOUT THE MUSLIM POPULATION AND THEIR SUFFRAGE AFTER WORLD WAR I, AND IT DRAWS A VERY COMPLETE PICTURE OF THE MUSLIM POPULATIONS THAT ONE CAN SEE IN ANY WESTERN ARCHIVES.

HE TRIES TO BE IN THE MIDDLE FOR WHICH HE WAS BLAMED OF BEING A PRO TURK, IN MY OPINION, AND IN THE BOOK THAT I DISCUSSED, THAT HE WAS INDEED WAS NOT A PRO TURK WHATSOEVER.

BUT HIS INTERPRETATIONS OF THE EVENTS ON THE GROUND ARE QUITE INTERESTING AND VERY IMPORTANT FOR NOT ONLY THE STUDENTS OF TURKISH HISTORY OR MIDDLE EASTERN HISTORY, BUT IN MY OPINION, COULD BE VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENTS THAT ARE STATIONED PRESENTLY IN ANY PARTS OF THE MIDDLE EAST, BECAUSE HE TALKS ABOUT NOT ONLY TURKEY, BUT IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE MIDDLE EAST AS WELL.

>>I WANTED TO TALK MORE ABOUT THE CONTROVERSIAL ASPECTS OF THE BOOK YOU MENTIONED.

CAN YOU HIGHLIGHT SOME OTHER CONTROVERSIES THAT ARE IN THAT BOOK AND WHY ARE THEY CONTROVERSIAL?

>>YES.

THE BOOK ACTUALLY STARTS WITH A STATEMENT THAT THE FIRST CASUALTY OF WAR IS TRUTH.

THIS PHRASE WAS ATTRIBUTED TO A AMERICAN SENATOR IN 1917 DURING WORLD WAR I.

DURING WORLD WAR II, WINSTON CHURCHILL IS BELIEVED TO HAVE SAID, "IN WAR TIME, TRUTH IS SO PRECIOUS THAT YOU SHOULD ALWAYS BE PROTECTED BY A BODYGUARD OF LIES."

SO THIS IS THE STARTING POINT OF THE BOOK.

OBVIOUSLY, WORLD WAR I IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT EVENT IN WORLD HISTORY AND THE CONTROVERSIAL EVENTS THAT TOOK PLACE DURING THIS TIME, WAS STILL BEING DEBATED BY MANY DIFFERENT PARTIES.

IN THE BOOK, I TRY NOT TO TAKE SIDES JUST TO GIVE FACTS ABOUT THE BOOK AND LET THE READERS DECIDE.

BUT WHAT HE DOES IS UNLIKE HIS PREDECESSORS, HE COLLECTS INFORMATION FROM HIS CAPTAINS, FOR EXAMPLE, SHIP CAPTAINS, AS NAVAL OFFICER, HE WAS IN COMMAND OF GUNBOATS THAT CIRCLES THE OTTOMAN WATERS AT THAT TIME, AND THEN HE REPORTS THAT TO WASHINGTON.

NOW, PREVIOUSLY THE AMBASSADORS AND THE INFORMATION THAT IS SENT TO WASHINGTON, COMES FROM MISSIONARIES AND THE PEOPLE AND THE TRADERS THAT LIVED WITH THE CHRISTIAN POPULATION.

NOW BRISTOL SENDS INFORMATION IN ADDITION TO THAT, THE INFORMATION THAT HE COLLECTS FROM THE MUSLIM POPULATION THAT LIVED IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE EMPIRE.

SO HE REPORTS THE SUFFRAGE OF THESE PEOPLE AS WELL.

HE HAS HIS OWN CONCLUSIONS ABOUT CERTAIN EVENTS, SUCH AS THE INTER RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES AND THE OCCUPATION OF THE OTTOMAN TERRITORIES AFTER WORLD WAR I, AND HE WAS VERY ACTIVE IN THE TREATY OF LAUSANNE NEGOTIATIONS, FOR EXAMPLE, AND HE PUTS FORWARD THAT UNITED STATES HAS TO ESTABLISH AND RECOGNIZE THE EMERGING KEMALIST REGIME IN TURKEY.

NOW, THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT STATEMENT BECAUSE HE'S THE FIRST ONE TO SAY, "GREAT BRITAIN AND FRANCE AND OTHER ALLIED AMBASSADORS OR HIGH COMMISSIONERS IN CONSTANTINOPLE, DID NOT RECOGNIZE THE EMERGING POWER OF THE KEMALISTS DURING THIS TIME PERIOD."

HE'S THE FIRST ONE TO RECOGNIZE IT, AND THEN ADVISE WASHINGTON ACCORDINGLY, THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT THE CHRISTIAN POPULATION WITHIN THE OTTOMAN TERRITORIES, OR WHAT IS LEFT OVER FROM AFTER THE WAR, THE ONLY WAY TO PROTECT THEM UNLESS ALLIED FORCES ARE WILLING TO SEND AT LEAST 100,000 BOOTS ON THE GROUND, IS THE BEST WAY, IS TO COOPERATE WITH THE NEW EMERGING REGIME.

NOW, HE SAYS THAT, AND THESE REPORTS ARE AVAILABLE TO RESEARCHERS LONG BEFORE GREAT BRITAIN RECOGNIZES IT.

BUT HIS STAND ON THE ARMENIAN AND GREEK ISSUE EARNED HIM MANY ENEMIES IN WASHINGTON AND IN GREAT BRITAIN AND THE LOBBIES, AND THEY WERE TRYING TO FIRE HIM BECAUSE OF HIS STAND THAT TURKS SHOULD NOT BE OVERLOOKED, AND THE EMERGING REGIME SHOULD BE GIVEN A CHANCE TO SURVIVE, BECAUSE THAT'S THE BEST WAY FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS WITHIN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE AND THE MERCHANTS.

BUT THE STATE DEPARTMENT ALWAYS STAND BY HIM.

IN FACT, IT'S A TESTIMONY THAT HE WAS AS A NAVAL OFFICER AND A DIPLOMAT USUALLY NAVAL OFFICERS WERE APPOINTED AS DIPLOMATS, A VERY SHORT TERM.

BUT HE WAS THERE IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE FOR EIGHT YEARS, EIGHT VERY IMPORTANT YEARS.

SO OBVIOUSLY THIS CONTROVERSY THAT STILL CONTINUES TODAY DID NOT DETER STATE DEPARTMENT AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO FIRE HIM.

BUT IN THE BOOK, I DO NOT THINK THAT I SHOULD GO TOO MUCH INTO DETAIL ABOUT THE CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES IN THIS PROGRAM, BUT THE PEOPLE I HOPE WOULD READ IT ACCORDINGLY AND SEE THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN THAT HE TOSSES.

>>YOU MENTIONED WHEN YOU STARTED DESCRIBING THIS BOOK, THE IMPORTANCE THAT IT HAS ON THE PRESENT US TURKISH RELATIONS.

US AND TURKEY HAVE HAD A VERY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP FOR A LONG TIME, BUT IT'S BEEN UNDER CONSIDERABLE STRAIN IN RECENT YEARS.

SO I'M WONDERING IF YOU COULD TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT HOW THE BOOK CONNECTS TO THE PRESENT.

>>WELL, DURING THIS TIME PERIOD, THAT FINALLY BRISTOL CONVINCED WASHINGTON TO ESTABLISH RELATIONS WITH THE KEMALIST REGIME.

THEY CULTIVATED RELATIONSHIP THAT CULMINATED INTO TURKEY'S MEMBERSHIP IN THE NATO, FOR EXAMPLE, BEING IN DEFENSE ALLIANCE WITH THE UNITED STATES.

AND THE TRADE AGREEMENTS AND TURKEY CONSIDERING UNITED STATES AS A FRIEND FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

BUT AT THE PRESENT, OBVIOUSLY THE POLICIES AND THE NEW GENERATION OF TURKISH POLITICIANS ARE, IT SEEMS TO ME AT LEAST, ARE STAYING AWAY FROM THIS MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP BASED ON OBVIOUSLY WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WORLD AT THE PRESENT TIME, BUT THEY ALWAYS PRIVATELY ACKNOWLEDGED IN TURKEY AND THE UNITED STATES, THAT TURKEY IS AN IMPORTANT ALLY FOR THE UNITED STATES, AND THE UNITED STATES IS A GREAT FRIEND TO TURKEY.

ALTHOUGH IN THE PUBLIC, FROM TIME TO TIME, WE SEE STATEMENTS BY THE LEADERS THAT ARE NOT SO FRIENDLY TOWARDS EACH OTHER, ESPECIALLY IN TURKEY, AND THEY GO, THE PUBLIC ACCORDINGLY.

DEEP DOWN, BOTH THE FOREIGN MINISTRY IN TURKEY AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT IN THE UNITED STATES ARE AWARE OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THE FRIENDSHIP OF THESE TWO COUNTRIES.

NOW, THE ORIGIN OF THIS STRONG BOND STARTS WITH ADMIRAL BRISTOL, THAT'S WHY HE IS VERY IMPORTANT, AND HIS TRAIN OF THOUGHT IS IMPORTANT TO FOLLOW ON THE ISSUES ABOUT THE MANDATE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ARMENIAN MANDATE AND HOW HE MANEUVERS, HOW HE RESPONDS TO IT, AND THE REST.

>>YOU MENTIONED THE FRIENDSHIP BETWEEN US AND TURKEY, AND OF COURSE, I KNOW THAT THAT DEPENDS ON PERCEPTION AND ON ADMINISTRATIONS.

SO I WONDER WHAT YOUR HOPE IS THAT YOUR READERS WALK AWAY WITH AFTER READING YOUR BOOK?

>>I AM NOT SURE IF MY BOOK WOULD BE OF HELP TO THE DIPLOMATS TO SEE HOW STRONG THIS RELATIONSHIP HABIT IS FORMED AT THE PRESENT.

BUT IT ALSO SHOWS THAT THE CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES THAT MAR TODAY, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE ISSUE, HOW IT IS DEALT WITH DURING THAT TIME PERIOD.

AND THAT WOULD GIVE LESSONS TO, IN MY OPINION, TO DIPLOMATS, TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE AND APPROACH TO TURKEY ACCORDINGLY, OR THE GREEK MASSACRES OF SMRYNA, OR AT PRESENT DAY, IZMIR.

SO FOR THAT REASON, I WOULD SAY THAT IT HAS SOME AND VERY IMPORTANT RAMIFICATIONS FOR THE PRESENT TIME AND TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST, SO THAT THE RELATIONS BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES SOMEHOW GO FORWARD FROM THIS POINT ONWARDS, IT SEEMS TO BE PRESENTLY, IS NOT DOING SO WELL.

>>HAKAN, THE BOOK COVERS THE RISE OF THE TURKISH REPUBLIC, WHICH OF COURSE IS CHARACTERIZED BY ITS SECULAR NATURE.

SOME HAVE QUESTIONED WHETHER TURKEY TODAY STILL HAS THAT, RETAINS THAT SECULAR NATURE.

COULD YOU COMMENT ON THAT?

>>TURKEY STILL HAS THAT SECULAR NATURE, AND THERE'S A SIZEABLE POPULATION THAT BELIEVES IN THE FUNDAMENTALS OF SECULAR NATURE, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT PROBABLY DOES NOT GIVE THAT IMPRESSION.

AND I THINK WE CAN GO BACK TO, AGAIN, THE BRISTOL PERIOD TO UNDERSTAND HOW STRONG THE SECULARISM IN TURKEY IS DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT, ALTHOUGH PAYING LIP SERVICE TO SECULAR ASPECTS OF TURKISH ADMINISTRATION AND GOVERNMENT, PROMOTING CERTAIN PROGRAMS THAT BOTHERS THE SECULARISTS.

BUT I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT THE SECULARIST ESTABLISHMENT THAT WAS FOUNDED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF REPUBLIC, IS BEING WOUNDED EVERY DAY.

AND THERE IS A FEAR IN TURKEY THAT THIS WOULD EVEN GO FURTHER AWAY FROM IT.

HOWEVER, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THERE IS ENOUGH SOURCES TO STOP THAT, SO I BELIEVE THE SECULARISM WILL ENDURE, BUT IT IS NOT EASY TO CONTEMPLATE AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE IT WOULD ALL DEPEND ON HOW THE WORLD DEVELOPMENTS WILL GO.

IT SEEMS IN THE WORLD THAT MORE AUTOCRATIC LEADERS ARE IN POWER AND THEY SHAPE THE POLICIES OF THEIR... AND THE CULTURE, IT'S NOT JUST THE POLICIES, BUT THE CULTURE OF THEIR RESPECTIVE COUNTRIES AND TURKEY IS ONE OF THEM.

BUT THE SECULARIST FORCES IN TURKEY ARE INTACT, AND I HAVE FAITH THAT WILL ENDURE.

>>ON THAT SAME NOTE, CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE CURRENT STATE OF MEDIA IN TURKEY?

>>CURRENT STATE OF MEDIA IN TURKEY IS MUZZLED, AND THERE IS ACTUALLY ONE MEDIA AND FRINGES OF MEDIA, THERE ARE REALLY MINOR GROUPS OF MEDIA THAT TRIED TO SOMEHOW OPPOSE THE GOVERNMENT IN MANY ISSUES.

FOR EXAMPLE, A MINISTER RESIGNED, AND NONE OF THE SO-CALLED MEDIA REPORTED IT BEFORE THEY GOT THEIR MARCHING ORDER FROM THE TOP OF THE GOVERNMENT.

SO IN THAT SENSE, TURKISH MEDIA IS QUITE MUZZLED, BUT NOT ENTIRELY.

THERE ARE ESPECIALLY IN THE INTERNET, THERE ARE SOME JOURNALISTS THAT USE INTERNET AS THE MEDIUM AND THEN MARCH ON.

>>SO HAKAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU ACTUALLY REFERRED TO EARLIER ABOUT THE BOOK, WAS THAT ADMIRAL BRISTOL PRETTY MUCH WAS TELLING WASHINGTON THAT THEY SHOULD LOOK AT THE KEMALIST FORCES AS THE EVENTUAL WINNERS HERE.

SHOULD THAT BE SOMETHING THAT THE UNITED STATES KEEPS IN MIND RIGHT NOW, AS YOU'RE LOOKING AT A SITUATION WHERE PRESIDENT ERDOGAN HAS A RECORD ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND IS SOMEWHAT CRITICIZED.

THERE'S BEEN MORE TENSION IN THE RELATIONSHIP ON MANY LEVELS, BUT HE STILL SEEMS TO BE THE MOST POWERFUL FORCE IN TURKEY.

AND YOUR BOOK WOULD SUGGEST SOMETIMES YOU DON'T GET TO REALLY PICK THE WINNERS, YOU SHOULD BE SOMEWHAT REALISTIC ABOUT IT.

>>YES, THE BOOK SAYS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE REALISTIC ABOUT IT, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU HAVE TO RESPECT THE WILL OF PEOPLE IN TURKEY.

SO CURRENTLY THE GOVERNMENT IN POWER GET THE MOST VOTE AND THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO WORK WITH THEM.

THE CONDITIONS ARE NOT THE SAME AS WORLD WAR I WHERE ONE REGIME COLLAPSED, THE OTHER ONE, YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE TO SUPPORT.

SO THE UNITED STATES CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT REALLY SUPPORT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS ARE NOT THE SAME.

HAVING SAID THAT, UNITED STATES CAN BE HELPFUL IN FORCING THE DEMOCRATIC FORCES TO FUNCTION IN TURKEY.

AND IN THAT SENSE, UNITED STATES COULD BE HELPFUL, BUT UNITED STATES ALSO CAN BE RESPECTFUL FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS IN TURKEY, THE PEOPLE ELECT ONE GOVERNMENT, THEY HAVE TO RESPECT THAT.

>>THE CONDITIONS COMPARED TO A WORLD WAR I PERIOD IS QUITE DIFFERENT.

ONE REGIME WAS ENTIRELY IN COLLAPSE.

TODAY, THERE'S A TURKISH GOVERNMENT, AND THEN IT WOULD BE AWFUL IF UNITED STATES, SOMEHOW DEALS WITH OPPOSING OR OPPOSITION PARTIES, AND SUPPORTS THEM, THAT WOULD NOT HELP WHATSOEVER.

THAT'S WHAT BIDEN SAID ONCE IN HIS SPEECH, I THINK SEVERAL YEARS AGO.

AND IT BECAME A MAJOR RALLYING POINT IN TURKEY.

BUT UNITED STATES HAS TO BE QUITE, I WOULD SAY, SUPPORTIVE OF THE DEMOCRATIC FORCES IN TURKEY.

AND MAYBE THE CHANGE STARTS AT THE UNITED STATES, PROBABLY BECAUSE TURKEY WILL NOT CHANGE THAT FAST, HOPEFULLY UNITED STATES WILL AFTER THIS CURRENT ELECTION.

>>CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE YOUNGER GENERATION IN TURKEY AND MAYBE TOUCH ON THEIR INFLUENCE, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HISTORY AND THAT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHERE WE'RE HEADED, BOTH HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN TURKEY AND GLOBALLY, WE KNOW THAT, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE YOUNGER GENERATION IN TURKEY?

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THEM?

>>TURKEY, IN MY OPINION, IS DIVIDED.

THE OLDER GENERATION AND YOUNGER GENERATION, BUT ESPECIALLY THE YOUNGER GENERATION, BECAUSE THERE IS A GENERATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE THAT HAS ONLY SEEN THE [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT, 18 YEARS OR SO.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, AS I SAID, THE SECULARIST FORCES, THE EDUCATION THAT THE KEMALISTS PRIOR TO THIS GOVERNMENT PROVIDED IN SCHOOLS ARE SO STRONG THAT THE WILL OF THOSE YOUTH COULD NOT BE ERASED.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS A SIZEABLE POPULATION OF STUDENTS AND YOUTH IN TURKEY THAT GREW UP WITH THE IDEOLOGY THAT WAS GIVEN TO THEM THROUGH THE CURRENT EDUCATION IMPOSED BY THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT.

SO I DON'T WANT TO SAY THIS, BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE TWO GROUPS CAN COME HEAD TO HEAD AND THAT THAT WOULD CREATE AN UNFORTUNATE ATMOSPHERE IN TURKEY.

SO THERE IS NOT ONE GROUP THAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT IN TERMS OF YOUTH IN TURKEY, TURKEY IS QUITE DIVIDED, UNFORTUNATELY.

>>IS THAT DIVIDE ALSO EVIDENT IN TERMS OF THOSE OUTSIDE OF ISTANBUL AND ANKARA, COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE POPULATION?

>>OUTSIDE OF ISTANBUL MAJOR CIRCLES, THE TILT IS IN FAVOR OF MORE ISLAMIST, LESS SECULARIST FORCES, DEFINITELY.

BUT IN BIG CITIES, THE CULTURE OF YOUTH IS QUITE STRONG, SO MUCH SO THAT THE PRESIDENT ERDOGAN COMPLAINED RECENTLY IN A TV INTERVIEW, THAT THEY WERE NOT VERY SUCCESSFUL IN IMPOSING THE CULTURE THAT THEY WANT TO PROMOTE TOWARDS THE YOUNG GENERATION.

SO IN THAT SENSE, I WOULD SAY THAT ONCE YOU GO OUT OF THE MAJOR POPULATION CENTERS IN RURAL AREAS, LIKE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, MORE CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE WHO ARE RESPONSIVE TO GOVERNMENTS' TEACHING, CURRENT TEACHING OF MORE ISLAMIST VALUES, COMING TO THE FORE ARE MORE PRONOUNCED.

>>WE KNOW THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHERE YOU COME FROM TO KNOW WHERE WE'RE HEADED.

QUICKLY, WHERE DO YOU THINK TURKEY IS HEADED?

>>I'M KNOWN FOR BEING A PESSIMISTIC.

I DON'T KNOW IF TURKEY HIT THE ROCK BOTTOM YET.

THERE ARE WAYS TO GO.

ECONOMICALLY TURKEY IS NOT DOING WELL, AND THIS NOT ONLY THE GOVERNMENT, BUT THIS PANDEMIC DID NOT HELP AT ALL.

I THINK IT WILL GET MUCH WORSE BEFORE IT GETS ANY BETTER.

>>HAKAN OZOGLU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

>>WELL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, IT WAS WONDERFUL TO BE YOUR HOST AND EXPLAIN THE BOOK AND HOPEFULLY I WILL SEE YOU SOMETIME SOON.

>>ABSOLUTELY.

AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK ON ANOTHER EPISODE OF GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.