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Coming up on To The Contrary.

Hamas terrorists use hyper brutality and rape as a weapon of war.

With new, horrific details about what they did to Israeli women during the October 7th attack, then women play a key role in the GOP presidential campaign.

Music I'm Bonnie Erbe.

Welcome to To The Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

Up first, startlingly violent videos and detailed eyewitness accounts of what some have called perverse sexual violence surfaced this week.

The tactics were used by Hamas terrorists who used rape as a weapon of war against Israeli women during their October 7th attack on a music festival in Israel.

We won't describe the indescribable things Hamas terrorists did to the women on this program.

There has been widespread condemnation of the brutal rates.

There's also been criticism of women's organizations that didn't speak out about them earlier.

Representative Pramila Jayapal, co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, set herself up for criticism by downplaying the attacks and had to walk her comments back.

Hamas, as per usual, denied the attacks, despite the video evidence showing the truth.

Joining us today are Linda Chavez, chair of the Center for Equal Opportunity, Carrie Lukas, president of the Independent Women's Forum.

Jessica Washington, senior reporter for The Root.

And Lara Brown, author and former George Washington University professor.

Everybody who watches this issue knows that progressives have been turning on Israel.

And because it's such a complicated question, even separate from Netanyahu is what who is an arch conservative and widely hated by progressives.

But Israel itself and Israel's right to exist have been challenged by progressives, which never happened up until about the eighties or nineties.

So do you think this demonstration of what Hamas is really like, the things they did, the indescribable things they did to the Israeli women, will that change the minds of progressives or the American public?

Well, I wish I could say yes, but I have to tell you, this is an issue that's very much in my heart.

I don't know if you remember, Bonnie, but in the early 1990s, from 1993 to 1996, I was the U.S. expert at the United Nations Human Rights Commission.

And I was actually appointed special rapporteur on sexual violence during wartime.

I was sent to investigate the way in which the Japanese use Korean, Chinese, Filipino and other women as sexual slaves.

But what we saw on October 7 was so beyond anything that I can recall, even in that experience where women were brutally raped.

And by the way, it wasn't just women.

According to reports from at least ten of the hostages who've been released, men were also raped in captivity.

Hamas, one commentator, one report I read said they have a thing about cutting off people's genitals.

And these people are crazy.

They're sick.

Yeah, it is.

I mean, it is really, you know, sometimes people use the term well, they're animals.

No, they're not animals.

Animals don't behave this grotesquely.

This is a violent culture that wishes to eradicate Jews from the face of the earth.

And part of their violence has, in fact, been sexual.

I mean, they mutilated bodies.

They mutilated women.

They raped women, shot women and continued to rape them after they've been shot.

It is almost indescribable what happened.

And I'm sorry, but Congresswoman Jayapal deserves the criticism, as does anyone who cannot say that these Hamas individuals and by the way, it wasn't just Hamas.

Some of those women were taken back into Gaza and were greeted with tears while their mutilated bodies were flaunted in the streets, streets by civilians not just by Hamas fighters.

So this is a deeply sick culture.

Well, look, Hamas is a terrorist organization.

We should not dance around that in any way.

And those individuals who are engaged in terrorism look to use rape as a weapon of war and an instrument of terror.

Some of those women were taken back into Gaza and were greeted with cheers while their mutilated bodies were flaunted in the streets, by civilians not just by Hamas fighters.

So this is a deeply sick culture.

Well, look, Hamas is a terrorist organization.

We should not dance around that in any way.

And those individuals who are engaged in terrorism look to use rape as a weapon of war and an instrument of terror.

The reality is we've seen just this sort of of treatment of Ukrainian women by Russian soldiers.

In fact, the U.N. put out two reports, one in 2022 and one just a month and a half ago about how Russian soldiers have been sexually assaulting women and including and up to connecting electrodes to their genitals.

So this is not something that is just happening in Israel or just happened, surprisingly, on October 7th.

It is something that has been used against women and used as an instrument of terror and a method of war horrifically for centuries.

So you're saying what, That it's okay?

No, absolutely not.

But I think that we shouldn't just look at this incident as though it is isolated.

The problem is, is that women are seen as a way to get at a society.

And so when we have terrorists, we need to take down these terrorist organizations that actually engage in tactics of terror.

But do you think, Jessica, is it a myth that the Palestinian people are separate from Hamas in some sense?

Because I don't want to be downplaying the Holocaust.

There was widespread sexual abuse of Jewish women during the Holocaust.

I just want to be clear about that.

That's something CNN.

Multiple outlets have reported.

That's a historical fact that rape was used during the Holocaust.

And I just think we should acknowledge that the Nazis did horrific experiments on Jewish people, on people with intellectual disabilities.

They committed sexual assault.

I just think we don't have to, to say that rape is not okay, Sexual assault is not okay, we can say all those things without saying the Nazis weren't that bad.

Your first question was, is Hamas the same as the Palestinian people?

And to that, I would say no.

If you even look in Gaza, 50% of the population of Gaza is children.

So I think to say that children as young as, you know, as infants are responsible for the actions of Hamas would be inaccurate.

And again, half the population, about a million people living in the Gaza Strip are children.

And obviously, we know the death toll of children in the Gaza Strip is now nearing roughly almost 9,000 that we know.

What do they think should be done now?

What do progressive women want?

I think they want us to address and I think even Pramila Jayapal, what they're asking is we can hold two truths at the same time.

What has happened is and I'm speaking, you know, paraphrasing what I've heard is that we can condemn horrific acts of terrorism.

And we can also say that the killing of children is not okay.

And we have to figure out a way to bring those civilian death toll down.

I think that is what they were saying.

If I can just jump in.

I think it's crazy, though, to have this this attempt to add like you accidentally, we're especially in this situation with Hamas or we know that they are.

It's not an accident.

The children are being killed.

It's because they hide in schools and a daycare and pray for their children to get killed so they can.

And under hospitals, giving inflated death statistics.

I think it's telling that the U.N. has dragged its feet and avoided for, what, two months, acknowledging the rapes.

It is very specific to Jewish women that people are so uncomfortable doing that.

And I think that's what was so shameful, not just about what's happened, you know, on the international stage with the U.N. proving itself not just useless, which of course it's useless, but also just in the pockets of evildoers.

But also, you know, our leadership here in Washington being unwilling to call this I think Biden this late this week called it out pretty well.

The U.N. yeah but like, Bonnie.

But I want to move to this question.

Okay.

How you know, people say that they should negotiate, they should worry about the children, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

How do you do that with a nation that doesn't recognize your right to exist?

You dont until unconditional surrender talks about negotiations and then I want to get to negotiations fell apart because in part they refused to release some of these women and no one knows why.

But it's most likely because they would talk, they would come public with more of what went on October 7th with women.

And President Biden said, you know something to the effect of you, you can't negotiate with somebody who wants you dead.

Absolutely.

He's absolutely right.

Golda Meir once said about the Palestinian conflict, We can forgive you for killing our children, but we cannot forgive you for is forcing us to kill your children.

And that is the position Israel has been put into because Hamas hides under hospital hides and schools hides among the civilian population in order to root them out.

Civilians are killed, including children, and that is a tragedy.

But those deaths are on Hamass heads.

Yeah, look, I agree completely that, you know, as I said, Hamas is a terrorist organization.

They are actually the ones creating terror in the region for not only Israelis, but Palestinians.

And I think one of the things that is so important is to realize that women are the ones who become the victims of these kinds of tactics of war, which are, in fact, crimes, and they should be prosecuted.

And there needs to be more outrage, not just in Israel over the October 7th attacks, but also, you know, in Ukraine with the Russian soldiers.

Also, when we look to conflicts all over the world, women end up in the crossfire.

Jessica, do you see this event having an impact on the relations between the Jewish community and the African-American community here?

You know, I obviously I can't speak too to the Jewish community.

I think obviously, you know, black Americans, black women are disproportionately, you know, the victims of sexual assault and abuse.

And so I certainly don't think that there are black Americans in this country or of the mainstream opinion among black Americans this country is that sexual assault is ever since this is an issue.

You know, we obviously have dealt with deeply in our community.

I think there are many black Americans, and you can see this in the polling who feel a deep empathy and sympathy for the Palestinian people and what they're going through.

You know, obviously, there are about 9,000 children who are dead.

There are, I think, 4,000 women who have now been killed in these bombings.

So I think there's a deep sympathy and empathy.

And a lot of that comes from our shared history and our shared community.

But I don't think there should be a reason to cause division between Jewish Americans and black Americans, particularly because as a community, we have had a lot in common and we've worked together on many civil rights issues.

So I don't think that this should become a huge divide in these communities.

I think there's a lot of reason to see empathy between those.

And I think black Americans, empathy for Palestinians does not mean that black Americans can't also hold empathy for Jewish Americans.

Linda, moving forward, what do you want to see happen?

Who should get punished for this and how?

What should be done to the Israeli in continued attacks on Hamas?

And, you know, and by impossibly connected to impact attacks, military attacks on civilians in Gaza.

How do they move forward?

Well, first of all, I would like to see the remaining 100 plus hostages released immediately.

I would like to see the unconditional surrender of Hamas.

If you want to stop the killing, if you want a cease fire, there's a very easy way to do it.

Sinwar and all of the Hamas leadership who are hiding among civilians in Gaza can come forward.

They can give themselves up that would end this war.

I absolutely agree with Linda.

I think that's perfectly said.

And, you know, I do think that this has also been revealing about, you know, I'm concerned when I look at the conversation in the United States, and particularly with young people who seem not to be able to speak clearly about what true evil is.

And I think it's shed a big light into the problems in our university system and in our culture.

So I think really glad we're having this conversation and there's been so much agreement about calling out evil for what it is.

And I think it's just shameful that it's taken so long for so many people to get here and how much these stories were buried because new information is coming out.

But anybody was paying attention, you know, knew what was the nature of this for two months now.

So I hope that kids are hearing and are starting to wake up to, you know, not just equivocating, but sometimes there is a true evil out there.

And this is and it deserves to be called as such.

Jessica, I have interviewed Pramila Jayapal, and it's interesting that she had to walk back her comments and what do you think?

Will this change anybody else's attitude moving forward?

All I can say is I think and she explained her comments.

And I, as we all know, speaking on live television, sometimes you say things and it can come off wrong.

I think my interpretation of what she was trying to say is that we as a nation can and should be able to hold to truth simultaneously.

We can say that this thing is wrong and this thing is also wrong and be able to talk about those things honestly, particularly when we're in such fraught times.

It's important to do that.

Do I think that the news of sexual assault committed by Hamas will change people's minds?

I mean, I do think, you know, in the sense that I think people will condemn those actions.

Certainly, I think I have not spoken to a progressive member of the Democratic Party who does not think that the October seven terrorist attack was wrong.

Not one.

I don't think this will change people's mind about calling for a cease fire.

You know, although it's an unpopular position in Congress, it's incredibly popular among the American people.

I think about 60% of Americans want a cease fire now.

They would like to see the violence and then they would like to see a stop to the bombings of hospitals and refugee camps.

They would like to see no more dead children essentially.

So, no, I don't think this will change people's calculus about calling for a cease fire, although I do think we'll see condemnation of these actions, because I do believe that the progressives in the Democratic Caucus care about it.

Laura, last one out on this topic.

What do you what do you want to see moving forward?

What I'd like to see is Hamas have an unconditional surrender.

I agree with Linda on this, that at the end of the day, this is a problem that Hamas could solve and they are engaged in not only prosecuting terror across the border, but actually creating terror and criminal activity within their own community.

So in some ways, you know, I see this very similar to what happens in failed states when there are failures and criminal terrorist elements take over and it ends up victimizing all of the people and all of their neighbors.

And that's where we are.

All right.

From the atrocities against women to women and the GOP, women are taking a big role in the news surrounding the GOP this week.

The fourth Republican primary debate was overseen by three influential news women Megyn Kelly, Eliana Johnson and Elizabeth Vargas.

And the spotlight was on another woman, Nikki Haley, who's currently in second place.

Some polls show Haley performing better than Trump in general election matchups against President Joe Biden.

And prominent GOP figure Liz Cheney says she's considering running as a third party candidate.

If it would help defeat former President Trump, who would she siphon more if Liz Cheney ran, who would she siphon more votes from?

Biden or Trump?

And assuming they're the candidates, I don't think that she attracts enough support to really make a bit of a big difference.

I don't think there's many Republicans who are going to vote for her at this point.

I think even if among kind of never-Trump Republicans, which obviously there are, I think they'd find another home.

So I don't know that she's a big, big threat to President Trump.

And but I do think that the rise of Nikki Haley's really interesting.

And it's been and she's such a great face.

I do think it's really I'm thrilled to see her out there.

You know, it's not that I agree with everything she says, but It's great to see a woman kind of take center stage on this from the conservative perspective.

I saw her described in one article, Jessica, this week as a, you know, a pretty feminine, fashionable face on somebody who's totally anti-abortion, not big on civil rights.

You know, she's trying to come off as sweet.

And actually her politics are extremely hard right.

Do you agree with that assessment?

Yes, I do think and I mean, I wouldn't have said it exactly the same way that article did, I think, you know, talking.

But what I would say is, yes, I think this is someone who's incredibly conservative.

And I think that oftentimes just in the media in general, when people can speak really eloquently, when they're not someone who goes for jobs like Donald Trump, when they're just less bombastic, we tend to treat them as more moderate than they are.

I mean, Nikki Haley is, you know, staunchly anti-abortion.

She is also you know, she's been a part of this anti CRT, kind of anti teaching about black history.

You know, she's been on this train as well.

So, yeah, I would say Nikki Haley is not a moderate.

She was governor of South Carolina, I think.

Yeah.

When someone is not as bombastic, it's easy to assume that they're moderate, even when they're not.

The Republicans do need an alternative to Donald Trump.

Donald Trump is representative of, honestly, the most sort of populist, conflicted, you know, conservative wing of the Republican Party.

I mean, there are many contradictions in what his supporters purportedly believe, but Nikki Haley is a consistent conservative.

And, you know, despite the fact that I don't agree with her on most things, I think she represents kind of the core Republican Party commitments and where they are at this present moment in time.

So to make it sound as though she is further right than anyone else in her party, I don't think that that's true.

She's just I would say, less authoritarian than where the present populist base is.

What do you think?

What how is it going to affect Republican women's vote?

And I'm talking about everybody from moderates to Marjorie Taylor Greene when Trump is, as is widely expected, indicted on federal charges and facing trial, if not having been convicted.

Another possibility by next November.

Can I just say quickly, Chris Christie is 100% right on this.

Donald Trump, if he is the nominee, will likely not even be able to vote for himself because there are four criminal trials that are scheduled between essentially the first of the year and the end of the year.

So we are looking at a president who would be a convict.

Now, I don't see how that situation holds, but I do think it is important to recognize that it is the women within the Republican Party that are also really holding Donald Trump up.

He draws much more support from Republican women even than he does men.

Will this be the thing that, of course, Democrats have been hoping for a long time, that he that will make even the hardest right pro-gun, anti-civil liberties, anti-government Republican women.

Linda, your thoughts finally say I can't vote for a guy who's a who's a criminal.

I mean, not that they might.

My question is, based on everybody seeing all this stuff coming up to the trial, but is the actual trial and the possible convictions going to be enough to change votes of the women?

According to the polls?

There are about under 10%, but still enough people who say they could not vote for someone who was convicted.

But I think finally we're being overly optimistic about whether or not we're going to get through any of those trials and get to a conviction and have that conviction upheld because Donald Trump will appeal it all the way to the Supreme Court.

We're in an existential crisis right now for democracy in my view.

And as you know, I'm very considered conservative know I'm in the Liz Cheney camp in terms of most not all, but most issues.

But I will vote for Joe Biden once again if faced between choosing Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

And I think there are a lot of people I'm no longer Republican, but there are a lot of Republicans out there who would like to have an alternative to Trump.

But there are a lot of Democrats out there, especially young people who would like to see an alternative to Biden.

That's exactly right.

I think this is the most frightening election, not just in my lifetime, but really going back to the Civil War.

I think this is an election unlike any we have seen except for that that preceded the Civil war.

This is going to be the future of the republic that we're going to be facing next year.

And I pray that the American people will do the right thing.

All right.

And on that note, that very scary note.

That's it for this edition.

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