REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS HAMPTON SIDES, ONE OF MY VERY FAVORITE AUTHORS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>HAMPTON: IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK WITH YOU.

>>LORENE: WELL, IT'S A PLEASURE BECAUSE I GET TO INTERVIEW YOU EVERY TIME YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK AND YOU'RE VERY PROLIFIC, BUT YOU GET THE PRIZE ON THIS ONE.

HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED THE WIDE WIDE SEA: IMPERIAL AMBITION, FIRST CONTACT AND THE FATEFUL FINAL VOYAGE OF CAPTAIN JAMES COOK .

THIS IS A RIVETING READ, RIVETING.

>>HAMPTON: WELL, I'M GLAD YOU THINK SO.

>>LORENE: SO THIS IS A NEW KIND OF GENRE OF LITERATURE CALLED NARRATIVE NONFICTION OR LITERARY NONFICTION AND IT SEEMS TOO AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT YOUR OTHER BOOKS IN A MINUTE, BUT THIS IS A NICHE THAT I DON'T KNOW, YOU HAVE EXCELLED IN.

IT'S JUST BEEN PERFECT FOR WHAT YOU DO.

WHAT IS IT AND WHY DO PEOPLE NEED TO KEEP THEIR EYES OPEN FOR THIS?

>>HAMPTON: WELL, I DON'T KNOW HOW NEW IT IS ANYMORE, YOU KNOW, IT'S NEWISH, I GUESS.

IT'S KIND OF A SUBGENRE, YOU KNOW, OF HISTORY THAT IS STRIVING TO CREATE NARRATIVES THAT READ LIKE FICTION, YOU KNOW, BUT THEY AREN'T FICTION.

YOU CAN'T MAKE ANYTHING UP, IT IS HISTORY.

I THINK WE ALL KNOW THAT A LOT OF ACADEMIC HISTORY, UNFORTUNATELY, HAS THE VERY WELL-DESERVED REPUTATION FOR BEING EXTREMELY DULL.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>HAMPTON: I DON'T KNOW WHY, IT SEEMS TO OFTEN BE THE CASE, THOUGH, THAT IT'S VERY TEDIOUS TO READ.

IT'S PERHAPS TRYING TO DO SOMETHING ELSE, BRING NEW FACTS TO THE FORE OR NEW ARGUMENTS TO THE FORE, BUT NARRATIVE NONFICTION AND I DON'T NECESSARILY LOVE THAT TERM.

I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE RIGHT TERM IS, I MEAN, I THINK IT SHOULD JUST BE CALLED HISTORY.

>>LORENE: NARRATIVE HISTORY.

>>HAMPTON: YEAH, HISTORY SHOULD BE READABLE AND HISTORY SHOULD BE THE KIND OF THING THAT PEOPLE WANT TO BUY AND READ AND TURN PAGES AND GET TO THE END.

AND YOU KNOW, YOU DO THAT THROUGH A LOT OF TECHNIQUES AND TRICKS THAT YOU, I THINK, MORE COMMONLY ASSOCIATE WITH NOVELS.

YOU KNOW, LIKE A LOT OF CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, A LOT OF SCENES WHEN YOU CAN RECREATE THEM, SOME DIALOG IF YOU CAN FIND IT IN THE RECORDS, A STORY ARC THAT REALLY HAS A PLEASING KIND OF BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END.

THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS I THINK, YOU KNOW, PERHAPS THE OTHER TECHNIQUES THAT YOU MIGHT MORE COMMONLY ASSOCIATE WITH SCREENPLAYS, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU'RE REALLY TRYING TO INVEST IN A SCENE, EVERYTHING YOU'RE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH YOU MIGHT OTHERWISE DO IN EXPOSITORY WRITING YOU'RE NOW TRYING TO CRAM IT INTO A SCENE.

YOU KNOW, WHERE THERE'S CHARACTERS AND THERE'S CONFLICT AND THERE'S SOME KIND OF RESOLUTION OF THAT CONFLICT, THAT TYPE OF THING, WHICH I THINK IS MORE COMMONLY THOUGHT OF AS BEING SOMETHING YOU MIGHT SEE IN A MOVIE, YOU KNOW, A CINEMATIC KIND OF TECHNIQUE.

>>LORENE: WELL IT'S VERY EFFECTIVE.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY GRIPPING, ABSOLUTELY GRIPPING.

YOU'VE DONE THAT IN YOUR OTHER BOOKS, I'D JUST LIKE TO SHOW SOME OF THEM.

IN THE KINGDOM OF ICE, THE GRAND AND TERRIBLE POLAR VOYAGE OF THE USS JEANNETTE .

THIS IS IN THE KINGDOM OF ICE .

ANOTHER ONE, THIS ONE, GHOST SOLDIERS: THE FORGOTTEN EPIC STORY OF WORLD WAR II'S MOST DRAMATIC MISSION , THE EPIC ACCOUNT OF WORLD WAR TWO'S GREATEST RESCUE MISSION.

SO THIS ONE AND SHOW US A COUPLE OF YOUR OTHER ONES, TOO.

>>HAMPTON: WELL, YEAH, I'VE GOT, THEY ARE STARTING TO PILE UP, I'VE WRITTEN A BUNCH OF THESE NOW.

>>LORENE: I KNOW YOU HAVE.

>>HAMPTON: I WRITE SLOWLY BUT STEADILY, KIND OF LIKE THE TORTOISE.

I'M NOT THE HARE.

I'M THE TORTOISE.

AMERICANA , WHICH IS A BOOK, SORT OF AN ANTHOLOGY OF MY JOURNALISM WORK.

>>LORENE: OH YES.

>>HAMPTON: THE EARLY 2000S MOSTLY.

BLOOD AND THUNDER IS PROBABLY MY BEST KNOWN BOOK HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

SORT OF THE STORY OF KIT CARSON AND HIS ROLE IN THE CONQUEST OF THE AMERICAN WEST.

>>LORENE: IT IS A FABULOUS BOOK, I LOVE THAT BOOK.

>>HAMPTON: I LOVE IT, TOO.

IT WAS MY EDUCATION IN LEARNING ABOUT THIS GREAT STATE THAT I CHOSE TO MAKE MY HOME, BEEN HERE 30 YEARS NOW.

ON DESPERATE GROUND IS A BOOK ABOUT WHAT I THINK IS THE GREATEST BATTLE OF THE KOREAN WAR.

I GUESS IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS THAT I JUMP AROUND, A LOT OF DIFFERENT TOPICS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>HAMPTON: SOMEONE SAID I HAVE A CASE OF HISTORICAL ADD, ALTHOUGH WHEN I CHOOSE SOMETHING I STICK WITH IT UNTIL THE THING IS DONE.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T LIKE TO DO THE SAME KIND OF BOOK OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, HELLHOUND ON HIS TRAIL , WHICH IS A BOOK ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION OF MARTIN LUTHER KING IN MEMPHIS, WHICH IS MY HOMETOWN WHERE I GREW UP, AND THE SEARCH FOR JAMES EARL RAY.

SO IT'S MORE OF A KIND OF A SHOE LEATHER DETECTIVE STORY, A MANHUNT >>LORENE: IT'S A THRILLER, IT IS REALLY AMAZING, REALLY AMAZING.

>>HAMPTON: WELL, THANK YOU.

SO BUT THE NEW ONE IS LIKE ALL OF THESE, IT KEPT ME BUSY MANY YEARS.

I DID A LOT OF TRAVEL, I DID A LOT OF RESEARCH.

THIS ONE, THOUGH, THE WIDE, WIDE SEA IS, IT'S DEFINITELY THE FARTHEST BACK IN HISTORY OF ANY SUBJECT THAT I'VE TRIED TO TACKLE.

>>LORENE: YES, THE 1770S.

>>HAMPTON: 1770S, AND NOT JUST GOING BACK IN TIME, BUT GOING BACK IN CULTURE IN A SENSE TO ENGLAND.

ENGLISH CULTURE, I HAD TO LEARN SORT OF THE WAY THEY WROTE AND THE WAY THEY TALKED, LITERALLY THE STYLE OF THEIR HANDWRITING AND SOME OF THESE OLD DOCUMENTS.

AND IT WORRIED ME AT FIRST, I WASN'T SURE, YOU KNOW, I CAN GO BACK IN TIME THAT FAR AND CREATE THE KIND OF NARRATIVES I'VE BEEN TRYING TO WRITE AND DO IT WITH A STORY THAT'S 250 YEARS OLD.

YOU KNOW, WHERE EVERYONE'S WEARING WIGS AND WEARING FUNNY TRICORN HATS AND, YOU KNOW, ALL THE PERIOD ISSUES, JUST STARTING WITH THAT.

HOW AM I GOING TO PULL THIS OFF AND I THINK I DID, BUT IT TOOK ME A LITTLE LONGER THAN SOME OF MY OTHER BOOKS.

>>LORENE: WELL, ALSO THE TRICORN HATS, FOR EXAMPLE, BECAUSE IN YOUR STORIES OF FIRST CONTACT AS COOK WENT INTO MANY LITTLE INLETS AND RIVER ESTUARIES AND FOUND ALL THESE DIFFERENT TRIBES, SMALL UNITS, LIVING PERHAPS DIFFERENT FACIAL PAINT AND DECORATION AND CLOTHING AND ALL THIS, FIRST CONTACT COULD GO MANY WAYS.

AND AT THE BEGINNING, FIRST OF ALL, COOK WAS A CARTOGRAPHER, HE WAS A MAPMAKER AND HE LOVED MAKING MAPS.

AND SECOND OF ALL, HE WAS A CALM IN THE FACE OF DANGER AND BALANCED AND DIDN'T THREATEN PEOPLE, CAME AS A FRIEND, AS A PEER, HE WASN'T TRYING TO SUBJUGATE ANYONE AT THE BEGINNING.

AND SO, BUT NOT ALL THE FIRST CONTACTS WENT WELL.

AND THAT'S WHAT IS SO AMAZINGLY DOCUMENTED IN THIS.

AND IT MAKES US THINK, YOU KNOW, TRICORN HATS, WHAT WOULD WE THINK, YOU KNOW, HAD WE NOT KNOWN THE HISTORICALNESS OF THIS CRAZY HEAD PIECE, YOU KNOW, WHAT DID IT MEAN, WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEIR HEADS.

>>HAMPTON: I KNOW, THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVED, PARTICULARLY THE NATIVE HAWAIIANS, WHEN COOK ARRIVED IN HAWAII, THE FIRST EUROPEAN TO EVER SET FOOT THERE, THE NATIVE HAWAIIANS THOUGHT THAT THE BRITISH HAD DEFORMED HEADS, THREE POINTED HEADS.

AND THEY'D NEVER SEEN POCKETS BEFORE IN CLOTHING AND SO THEY WOULD EVEN SAY, LOOK THESE PEOPLE REACH INTO THEIR BODIES AND PULL OUT TREASURE, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE AMAZED.

AND REALLY IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, COOK'S MEN WERE AMAZED TOO, THAT OUT THERE IN THE MIDDLE, VERY MIDDLE OF THE PACIFIC WAS A WHOLE ARCHIPELAGO THAT HAD NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE BY EUROPEANS AND HAD NEVER BEEN ON THE MAPS AND HOW DID WE STUMBLE UPON THIS PLACE AND WHY HADN'T IT ALREADY BEEN FOUND BY OTHER EUROPEANS?

SO, CAPTAIN COOK REALLY WAS, AS YOU SUGGESTED, I THINK, FAIR MINDED IN THE WAY HE APPROACHED INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY ON HIS FIRST AND SECOND VOYAGE.

HOWEVER, ON HIS THIRD VOYAGE, WHICH IS REALLY THE SUBJECT OF THE BOOK, THERE WAS SOMETHING A LITTLE WRONG WITH CAPTAIN COOK, SOMETHING WAS OFF, YOU KNOW, HE WAS EXHAUSTED, HE WAS IN PAIN A LOT OF THE TIME, HE WAS AN OLDER MAN NOW.

HE WAS IMPATIENT, HE STARTED TO USE THE LASH MORE AND MORE ON HIS OWN CREW AND ON THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE WHEN SOMETHING WENT MISSING.

>>LORENE: HE WOULD RETALIATE VIOLENTLY, YOU KNOW, WAY BEYOND WHAT WAS NECESSARY.

>>HAMPTON: YEAH, A LOT OF SCHOLARS AND BIOGRAPHERS HAVE TRIED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS IT THAT, WHAT WAS THE CHANGE IN HIS PERSONALITY.

DID HE HAVE A PARASITE, WE KNOW THAT HE HAD SCIATICA, VERY DEBILITATING, YOU KNOW, SCIATIC NERVE ISSUE.

SO THAT'S ONE OF THE LITTLE THINGS IN THE BOOK THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS UP WITH THE CAPTAIN, THIS ISN'T THE SAME CAPTAIN IN VOYAGES ONE AND TWO , SOMETHING'S DIFFERENT, BUT NOT ALWAYS, HE HAS GOOD DAYS AND BAD DAYS.

>>LORENE: RIGHT, BUT HE HAD SUCH RESPECT IN THE EARLIER VOYAGE FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLES, DIDN'T PROSELYTIZE, YOU KNOW, AND THEN SUDDENLY HE BECAME BRUTAL AND RETALIATORY.

AND IT'S TRUE, AS YOU SAY, MUCH SPECULATION ABOUT WHY THIS HAPPENED.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, IT CHANGED BECAUSE IN THE LONG RUN, THE FIRST CONTACT TURNS OUT THAT MAYBE IT WAS ULTIMATELY CATASTROPHIC FOR THE FIRST PEOPLES OF THE WORLD.

>>HAMPTON: WELL, CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, NOWADAYS, CAPTAIN COOK IS VERY CONTROVERSIAL AGAIN, ALL OVER AGAIN.

THIS STODGY OLD GUY WITH A WIG FROM SEVERAL CENTURIES AGO, AS IS CURRENT AGAIN, BECAUSE HIS STATUES ARE BEING YANKED.

>>LORENE: THEY TURN BLOOD RED PAINT OVER THEM AND SAYING THIS IS NATIVE LAND ON IT, IT'S TRUE, THEY WENT IN 2019, THEY TRIED TO RENAME THE COOK ISLANDS, DID THEY?

>>HAMPTON: THEY HAVE NOT COME UP WITH THE NAME YET, BUT I THINK IT'S STILL AN EFFORT, ONGOING EFFORT.

AND I AGREE WITH THAT, YOU KNOW, CAPTAIN COOK DIDN'T NAME THEM THE COOK ISLANDS.

IN FACT, WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING ABOUT COOK, IN HIS DEFENSE, HE NEVER NAMED A SINGLE THING AFTER HIMSELF, YOU'LL SEE HIS NAME ALL OVER THE PLANET.

>>LORENE: WASN'T HE BRITISH ROYALTY, LORDS AND LADIES, I MEAN, HE WAS QUITE GENEROUS IN HIS NAMING.

>>HAMPTON: BUT WHEN HE UNDERSTOOD DEFINITIVELY THAT THERE WAS AN INDIGENOUS NAME FOR, YOU KNOW, THAT MOUNTAIN OR THAT HARBOR, HE USUALLY USED THE INDIGENOUS NAME WHICH WAS RARE IN HIS TIME, I MEAN HE HAD SO MANY, YES, THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH HIM ON HIS THIRD VOYAGE, BUT YOU KNOW, I ALSO CAME AWAY FROM THIS PROJECT JUST DEEPLY ADMIRING HIM.

I DO THINK HE'S ONE OF THE GREATEST EXPLORERS OF ALL TIME, CERTAINLY JUST IN TERMS OF THE NAUTICAL, THE NUMBER OF NAUTICAL MILES THAT HE COVERED, THE NUMBER OF PLACES HE PUT ON THE MAP, THE NUMBER OF ENCOUNTERS HE HAD WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, ANY ONE OF HIS VOYAGES WOULD HAVE PUT HIM IN THE PANTHEON, BUT HE HAD THREE OF THEM >>LORENE: YES.

>>HAMPTON: SO BUT FOREMOST AMONG ALL HIS SKILLS WAS THIS MAPMAKING THING THAT YOU ALLUDED TO EARLIER, HE JUST HAD THIS UNCANNY KNACK FOR MAKING MAPS THAT WERE VERY ACCURATE.

>>LORENE: THE OTHER THING I HEAR HE HAD AN UNCANNY SENSE FOR LAND THAT HE COULD HE COULD FEEL, I MEAN YOU COULD USUALLY TELL THEIR TREES IN THE WAVES AND BIRDS FLYING BY, YOU KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF SIGNS OF LAND BEING NEARBY, BUT EVEN WAY, WAY BEFORE ANY OF THAT WAS EVIDENT, HE WAS ABLE TO SENSE THAT LAND WAS NEAR.

>>HAMPTON: YEAH, YOU KNOW, THEY SAID THAT HIS SHIPS WERE DRAWN TO LAND AS IF BY A MAGNETIC ATTRACTION.

SOMETIMES IT WAS SOMETHING HE SENSED, SOMETIMES IT JUST SEEMED LIKE DUMB LUCK, BUT EVERYWHERE HE WENT, ALL OVER THE PACIFIC, HE WOULD CONSTANTLY STUMBLE UPON A NEW ISLAND, NEVER BEEN DISCOVERED, AT LEAST BY EUROPEANS, OFTEN THERE WOULD BE UNINHABITED ISLANDS THAT PERHAPS HAD NEVER BEEN SEEN BY HUMANS.

AND ON AND ON IT GOES THROUGHOUT THE SOUTH PACIFIC AND THEN INTO THE NORTH PACIFIC, BECAUSE ON THIS VOYAGE HE HAS TO GO ALL THE WAY TO ALASKA, AND HE KEEPS STUMBLING UPON LAND.

SOMETIMES IT'S JUST A GODSEND THAT HE DID STUMBLE OR HAD THAT SIXTH SENSE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HE WAS ABOUT TO CRASH INTO SOME OF THESE PLACES AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF THE VOYAGE, BUT HE WOULD COME UP ON DECK AND TELL HIS MAN TO, YOU KNOW, RIGHT, THE SHIP, THERE'S LAND RIGHT HERE.

THEY COULDN'T SEE IT, COULDN'T UNDERSTAND, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AND THEN IT WOULD TURN OUT THAT HE WAS RIGHT.

>>LORENE: SO HE DID MAP THE ENTIRETY OF ALASKA'S COAST, WHICH IS AMAZING, ON HIS WAY TO FIND THAT FAMOUS NORTHWEST PASSAGE, WHICH HE DIDN'T FIND, BUT HE FOUND, HE MAPPED AN ENTIRE SUBCONTINENT TO A HUGE EXTENT, YOU KNOW, ALL OF, YOU KNOW, OUR PACIFIC NORTHWEST AND THEN, OF COURSE, A LOT OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC, HAWAII, ALL OF THAT.

>>HAMPTON: YEAH, I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE, IF THEY KNOW MUCH ABOUT COOK, ASSOCIATE HIM WITH PALM TREES AND WARM WEATHER AND THE SOUTH SEAS, BUT WE FORGET, I THINK MOST OF US, THAT HE ALSO DID ALL THIS ARCTIC EXPLORATION THAT HE DID MAP THE ENTIRE COASTLINE OF ALASKA, WHICH WAS EXTREMELY HARD TO DO IN HEAVING SEAS AND ALL THE FOG, SOMEHOW OR ANOTHER WE GET OUR FIRST, IT'S INCOMPLETE, THERE'S GAPS, BUT WE GET OUR FIRST REALISTIC LOOK ON MAPS OF WHAT ALASKA REALLY LOOKS LIKE, YOU KNOW, ALL THE LITTLE INDENTATIONS AND ALL THE RIVERS AND, YOU KNOW, ALL THE HARBORS.

IF YOU SEE HIS MAP, IT'S LIKE, YEAH, THAT'S ALASKA.

NOW WE KNOW WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, WHEREAS BEFORE COMING FROM BERING'S EXPEDITIONS, THOSE MAPS WERE LUDICROUSLY, YOU KNOW, CARTOONISHLY WRONG.

IN FACT, HE ASSUMED THEY WERE DELIBERATELY WRONG.

COOK BEGAN TO THINK THESE MAPS ARE DELIBERATELY WRONG TO THROW THE BRITISH OFF COURSE.

>>LORENE: WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH HAMPTON SIDES ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, THE WIDE, WIDE SEA , ABOUT CAPTAIN COOK'S THIRD VOYAGE.

BUT COOK HIMSELF SAID THAT WHAT HE LOVED THE MOST WAS DOING SERIOUS CARTOGRAPHIC FIELD WORK IN A BIG SCALE, IN AN UNFAMILIAR PLACE AND SO WHEN HE'S MAPPING ISLANDS, SUBCONTINENT'S, I MEAN, IT'S JUST PHENOMENAL AND LIKE YOU SAID, BERING AND THE EARLY RUSSIAN THINGS, IT WAS ALMOST LIKE WE'RE GOING TO MAKE THIS SO VAGUE YOU'LL NEVER, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE IT HERE, JUST FORGET ABOUT THIS.

>>HAMPTON: THE BERING MAP SHOWED ALASKA AS BEING JUST A LITTLE ISLAND SURROUNDED BY A BUNCH OF OTHER LITTLE, SMALLER ISLANDS.

AND YOU KNOW, THIS THESE QUESTIONS OF LIKE, WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE, WHERE DOES THE LAND MEET THE SEA, IS IT A PENINSULA, IS IT AN ISLAND, IS IT A CONTINENT, IS IT A PART OF THE MAINLAND?

THESE ARE THE KIND OF FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS OF LIKE THE CONTOURS OF THE EARTH THAT HE LOVES, TRYING TO SORT OUT, THESE LITTLE PESKY PROBLEMS AND GETTING IT ON THE MAP AND GETTING IT AS ACCURATELY AS POSSIBLE WITH THE EXACT COORDINATES USING THE CHRONOMETER, WHICH HE HAD TO WORK WITH, WHICH IS AN AMAZING TOOL THAT CERTAINLY HELPED HIM.

THIS WAS, YOU KNOW, MORE THAN ANYTHING, HE WAS KIND OF A NERD, HE WAS KIND OF A MAP NERD AND REALLY GOOD AT IT.

>>LORENE: AND THAT'S WHAT HE LOVED.

BUT I WOULD LIKE TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT HIS THIRD VOYAGE AND HOW HE DIED, BECAUSE HE LOVED HAWAII AND HE'D BEEN VERY HAPPY THERE.

SO AFTER HE HAD MAST PROBLEMS AND LEAKS AND HE HAD TO GO AND REPAIR THE SHIP, SO HE WENT BACK TO HAWAII AND HE ENTERED THE BAY, THE BIG BAY THERE ON THE DAY THEY HAD A CELEBRATION FOR A GOD NAMED LONO.

AND HE, WELL YOU CAN TELL IT BETTER, BUT HIS DECISION, IN THE PAST HE HAD MANIPULATED PEOPLE BY KIDNAPING SOMEBODY AND THEN HOLDING THEM AND THEN GIVING THEM BACK.

SO WHEN ONE OF HIS MAIN BOATS WAS STOLEN, HE THOUGHT, WELL, I'LL JUST KIDNAP THE KING OF HAWAII, NO PROBLEM.

TELL US WHAT HAPPENED.

>>HAMPTON: YEAH, YOU KNOW, I THINK MOST PEOPLE, IF THEY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT CAPTAIN COOK, KNOW THAT SOMETHING TERRIBLE HAPPENED TO HIM ON THE BIG ISLAND OF HAWAII.

THERE'S A MONUMENT DOWN THERE TO THE SITE OF HIS DEATH, THOUSANDS OF PILGRIMS GO DOWN THERE EITHER TO, YOU KNOW, MEMORIALIZE HIM OR TRASH HIM, THEY HATE HIM.

IT'S KIND OF A THING THAT YOU DO, EVERYONE THAT GOES TO THE BIG ISLAND LIKES TO DO THE HIKE DOWN THERE WHERE YOU CAN GO IN BY KAYAK.

BUT IT IS A PLACE WITH A LOT OF SORT OF ENERGY, BAD JUJU.

I FEEL LIKE SOME BAD THINGS HAPPENED SEVERAL WEEKS WHEN HE WAS IN HAWAII.

WHAT HAPPENED REALLY, IT'S VERY STRANGE.

HE ARRIVED DURING THIS FESTIVAL THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE MAKAHIKI THAT WAS TO HONOR THE GOD LONO AND THERE WAS AN ANCIENT PROPHECY THAT LONO WOULD ONE DAY RETURN, THE ACTUAL LONO WOULD RETURN TO THIS VERY PLACE IN THIS VERY MANNER WITH HUGE SHIPS, WITH HUGE SAILS.

AND HERE HE IS ARRIVING AT THE HEIGHT OF THE FESTIVAL, THERE'S THOUSANDS OF CANOES IN THE HARBOR, THERE'S THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ASHORE, ALL IN THIS RAPTUROUS, YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE PART OF THE YEAR WHERE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO LAY ASIDE YOUR WEAPONS AND CELEBRATE FERTILITY OF THE EARTH.

AND THIS IS THE TEMPLE DEDICATED TO THE GOD LONO.

SO HE COMES ASHORE AND THEY START CALLING HIM LONO, THEY BRING HIM INTO THE TEMPLE, HE BECOMES A CENTRAL FIGURE IN THIS VERY ELABORATE RELIGIOUS CEREMONY.

AND IT SEEMS TO COOK AND HIS MEN, HIS OFFICERS, THAT THEY THINK HE IS THE GOD, THE MANIFESTATION OF THE GOD.

AND A LOT OF YOU KNOW, ANTHROPOLOGISTS HAVE ARGUED ABOUT THIS POINT FOR A LONG TIME, DID THEY REALLY THINK HE WAS GOD OR DID THEY MAYBE SURMISE IT WAS POSSIBLE THAT HE WAS?

YOU KNOW, MY CONCLUSION WAS THEY DID THINK HE WAS A GOD BRIEFLY.

AND THEN AS COOK STAYS AND BEGINS TO OVERSTAY HIS WELCOME, REPLENISHING HIS SHIPS AND FEEDING ALL OF HIS SOLDIERS, SAILORS, GO ASHORE, AND OF COURSE, THEY'RE FORNICATING WITH THE WOMEN AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS ARE GOING ON THAT.

THEY BEGIN TO OVERSTAY THEIR WELCOME AND THEY DECIDE AT A CERTAIN POINT, NO, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK HE IS THE GOD LONO.

HE LEAVES BRIEFLY, BUT ENCOUNTERS A STORM AND HIS FOUR MASTS SNAP IN THIS STORM AND SO HE HAS TO TURN AROUND TO GO RIGHT BACK TO THAT SAME BAY TO REPAIR HIS SHIP.

AND THAT'S WHEN THEY DEFINITIVELY KNOW HE'S NOT LONO.

>>LORENE: OTHERWISE HIS MAST WOULD NOT HAVE BROKEN.

>>HAMPTON: JUST A VERY DIFFERNET LOOKING HUMAN BEING LIKE ALL THE REST.

AND SO HIS BOAT IS STOLEN THAT YOU MENTIONED BECAUSE NOT SO MUCH FOR THE BOAT ITSELF BECAUSE OF COURSE, THE HAWAIIANS HAD BEAUTIFUL AND WONDERFUL CANOES, BUT THE BOAT WAS HELD TOGETHER WITH ALL THIS METAL IRON, AND THEY WERE OBSESSED WITH IRON BECAUSE THEY HAD NEVER REALLY SEEN IT BEFORE AND THEY UNDERSTOOD IT WAS VERY VALUABLE.

SO COOK GETS THIS IDEA OF LIKE, YOU KNOW I'M JUST GOING TO MARCH ASHORE AND I'M GOING TO KIDNAP THE KING OF HAWAII FOR RANSOM, ESSENTIALLY.

HE WASN'T GOING TO HARM THEM, HE WAS GOING TO BRING HIM ON THE SHIP JUST TO GET HIS BOAT BACK.

BUT, YOU KNOW, HE DIDN'T REALLY SPEAK POLYNESIAN, HE SPOKE SORT OF A PIGEON POLYNESIAN AT THIS POINT, WAS ABLE TO COMMUNICATE A LITTLE BIT.

>>LORENE: YOU HAVE TO BE VERY SOPHISTICATED WHEN YOUR LIFE IS ON THE LINE.

>>HAMPTON: YEAH.

AND HE SURROUNDED THE KING, KALANI OPU U, WHO IS SURROUNDED BY THOUSANDS OF FIERCE WARRIORS AND THEY SMELL A RAT.

THEY CAN TELL SOMETHING AIN'T RIGHT AND THE TENSIONS ESCALATE, AGAIN MISCUES, MISUNDERSTANDINGS, THE LANGUAGE BARRIER AND COOK IS SORT OF JUST GRABBING THE KING AND TRYING TO GET HIM INTO THE SMALL BOAT AND THEY INTERVENE, THE WARRIORS DO, AND EVERYTHING JUST ESCALATES IN A HURRY AND IT BECOMES THIS MELEE.

AND ULTIMATELY NOT TO GIVE AWAY, I GUESS, SPOILER ALERT HERE, I THINK EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS CAPTAIN COOK DIES, BUT HE DIES IN THE MOST GRAPHIC AND THE MOST VIOLENT WAY.

HE'S ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, HACKED TO PIECES AND, YOU KNOW, BUTCHERED AND BASHED TO DEATH RIGHT THERE ON THE LAVA FLATS WITH A FEW OF HIS MARINES THERE TRYING TO FIGHT.

BUT THEY'RE OVERWHELMED VERY QUICKLY, FOUR OF HIS MARINES ARE KILLED.

THE REST OF HIS MEN ARE BACK IN THE BAY ON THESE SHIPS WATCHING THROUGH THEIR, YOU KNOW, FIELD GLASSES AND THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, THEY'RE WATCHING THEIR CAPTAIN GET DESTROYED.

OF COURSE, A LOT OF NATIVE HAWAIIANS TODAY SAY HE DESERVED IT, THIS WAS KARMA, HE HAD, HOW MANY ISLANDS HAD HE BEEN TO, HOW MANY TIMES HAD HE PERHAPS OFFENDED SOMEONE ALONG THE WAY, PERHAPS THIS WAS THIS WAS HIS MOMENT THAT FINALLY HAPPENED.

BUT IT WAS A SHOCKING MOMENT AND SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE LAST I'D SAY 50 PAGES OF MY BOOK IS REALLY TRYING TO DECONSTRUCT WHAT HAPPENED.

WHY DID IT HAPPEN, ALL THE DIFFERENT WEIRD KIND OF COINCIDENCES AND THE FACT, YOU KNOW, THIS WHOLE THING ABOUT THE ABOUT THE GOD LONO.

SO YEAH, THAT'S, IT'S NOT SO MUCH WHAT HAPPENED BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE KNOW HE DIED, IT'S THE HOW DID IT HAPPEN, WHY DID IT HAPPEN?

>>LORENE: AND YOU ARE SUCH A GOOD SCHOLAR THAT YOU HAVE AN EPILOG AND AFTERWORD AND YOU LIST ALL THESE REFERENCES, SO YOU'RE NOT MAKING IT UP, I MEAN, YOU'RE REALLY GIVING CHAPTER AND VERSE WHERE PEOPLE CAN THEMSELVES GO AND LOOK UP THIS STUFF.

I WAS REALLY IMPRESSED.

>>HAMPTON: I TRY TO GET AS MUCH OF THE SCHOLARSHIP AND ALSO THE ORAL HISTORY, I WANT TO SEE THE HAWAIIANS POINT OF VIEW AS WELL, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

>>LORENE: YEAH, WELL, HE WAS A VERY CONTROVERSIAL FIGURE AND THAT REALLY COMES THROUGH, BUT THAT'S WHAT I LOVE ABOUT YOUR WRITING, YOU TAKE A WELL-KNOWN FIGURE AND WE FIND OUT SO MUCH ABOUT THEM AND THEIR COMPLEXITY.

AND IN HIS CASE, THE CONTROVERSY, BECAUSE I THINK WHEN THEY SPLASH THE PAINT ON HIS MEMORIAL AND JUST SAID THIS IS NATIVE LAND, YOU KNOW, REMEMBER YOU WERE ON NATIVE LAND AND ALL THE DAMAGE THAT CAME FROM THE FIRST CONTACT ALL OVER THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC, BUT IN, YOU KNOW, THE NORTHWESTERN COAST.

I MEAN, JUST SAY ONE THING, HE WENT UP ON THE BERING STRAIT AND I THINK THERE'S A 50-MILE GAP BETWEEN THE ASIAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS.

>>HAMPTON: THE CHUKCHI PENINSULA AND THE ALASKAN SIDE.

>>LORENE: AND SO HE WENT OVER AND WHAT DID HE FIND THERE?

>>HAMPTON: YEAH, BRIEFLY HE JUST ONE DAY SAID, I WANT TO GO TO ASIA.

THE ONE CONTINENT HE HAD NOT BEEN TO AND HE WENT OVER THERE AND HAD A FIRST CONTACT EXPERIENCE THAT ACTUALLY WENT PRETTY WELL FOR ON BOTH SIDES.

AND THEN HE WENT UP AND OVER ALASKA, YOU KNOW, DEEP INTO THE ARCTIC OCEAN AND EVENTUALLY ENCOUNTERED THIS IMPENETRABLE WALL OF ICE.

>>LORENE: WASN'T IT IN AUGUST?

>>HAMPTON: IN AUGUST.

AND HE REALIZED, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT GOING TO SAIL, YOU KNOW, THE NORTHWEST PASSAGE, WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR IS ESSENTIALLY TO SAIL OVER CANADA TO THE ATLANTIC OCEAN.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

>>HAMPTON: THAT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN, YOU KNOW, AND HE UNDERSTOOD THAT.

HE DID THINK, WELL, MAYBE IT WAS JUST AN UNUSUALLY COLD SEASON, MAYBE NEXT YEAR WE'LL FIND IT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, WE ALL NOW KNOW THAT IT WAS A QUIXOTIC SEARCH THAT IS ONLY NOW POSSIBLE IN MODERN TIMES BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE, WHERE THERE ARE CRUISES THAT GO OVER AND THROUGH IT SUCCESSFULLY WITHOUT EVEN NEEDING REINFORCEMENT FOR THE ICE.

SO IT'S NOT THAT THE GOAL WAS QUIXOTIC, IT WAS THE TIMING WAS OFF, IF HE HAD HE JUST WAITED 200 YEARS, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EASY.

>>LORENE: BUT AMBITION DOESN'T WAIT AND SOMETIMES IT'S SUCH A LEVER, SUCH A FORCE DRIVING SOMEBODY THAT THEY MAKE FATAL, LONG TERM FATAL ERROR.

I'M JUST SO HAPPY, I LOVE THIS BOOK.

THIS IS HAMPTON SIDES BOOK, THE WIDE, WIDE SEA .

I REALLY RECOMMEND IT, ALL OF YOUR BOOKS.

I'M GLAD THAT YOU DID SO MUCH COLD WEATHER BOOKS, GO SOLDIERS IN THE KINGDOM OF ICE , I'M HAPPY THAT MAYBE TO MAKE A FEW TROPICAL TRIPS.

>>HAMPTON: YES, IT WAS NICE.

I HAVE TO SAY THE TRAVEL, I MEAN, CAPTAIN COOK WENT TO REALLY A LOT OF NICE PLACES AND I GOT TO GO TO A NUMBER OF THEM MYSELF.

>>LORENE: GOOD, GOOD.

WELL, THANK YOU FOR COMING TO THIS PLACE, BECAUSE I'VE REALLY ENJOYED TALKING TO YOU.

>>HAMPTON: GOOD TO BE BACK WITH YOU.

>>LORENE: YOU BET.

AND OUR GUEST IS HAMPTON SIDES AND I'M LORENE MILLS.

THIS IS REPORT FROM SANTA FE, REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM