>> JUST AHEAD ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM, UNPACKING VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS'S "“DON'T COME"” MESSAGE.

CUTTING OFF RECOVERY CHECKS TO ADDRESS A LABOR SHORTAGE.

AND THE ASHEBORO HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION THAT'S SPARKED DEBATE ABOUT THE VALUE OF ORDER AND TRADITION VERSUS INDIVIDUAL EXPRESSION.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT.

STAY WITH US.

♪ WELCOME TO BLACK ISSUES FORUM, I'M DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL.

ON A RECENT VISIT TO GUATEMALA, VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS KICKED OFF HER WORK ON IMMIGRATION WITH A CLEAR MESSAGE TO THE CENTRAL AMERICANS SEEKING ASYLUM IN THE U.S. AND IT'S RAISED THE ATTENTION OF PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVES AND THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

>> I WANT TO BE CLEAR TO FOLKS IN THIS REGION, WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT MAKING THAT DANGEROUS TREK TO THE UNITED STATES MEXICO BORDER.

DO NOT COME.

DO NOT COME.

>> WE HAVE INVITED ATTORNEY DAVID MUFUKA, A LAWYER SPECIALIZING IN IMMIGRATION LAW TO THE CONVERSATION.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ATTORNEY MUFUKA.

WE ALSO KNOW THAT YOU ARE A MEMBER OF NORTH CAROLINA ADVOCATES FOR JUSTICE.

CAN YOU SHARE WITH US YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE MESSAGE BEHIND WHAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS SAID AND WHY IT WAS SO PROBLEMATIC, PARTICULARLY FOR PROGRESSIVES?

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON THE PROGRAM.

SO THE MESSAGE HAS TO BE TAKEN IN ITS FULL CONTEXT.

I BELIEVE THAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS WAS SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT THE PROSPECT OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AT THE BORDER.

SO RIGHT NOW THE SOUND BITE IS GETTING A LOT OF ATTRACTION BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE FOCUSED ONLY ON IMMIGRATION BROADLY BUT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AT THE BORDER.

AND THE PROBLEM THAT SEEMS TO BE EMANATING WITH THE PROGRESSIVES IS REALLY IN HER CHOICE OF LANGUAGE AND HER TONE WHICH THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS STEMMING FROM THE TRAUMA OF THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION.

SO EVERYBODY ON THE PROGRESSIVE SIDE IT WAS LOOKING FOR A MUCH MORE DIFFERENT TONE AND RHETORIC.

AND THAT'S WHAT THE PROBLEM IS REGARDING HER STATEMENT.

>> WELL WITH REGARD TO WHAT AMERICAN POLICY IS AND THE CHALLENGE THAT'S BEEN PLACED SQUARELY ON HER SHOULDERS TO TO KIND OF FIX THE BORDER PROBLEM TO FIX IMMIGRATION POLICY.

WHAT IS IT THAT AMERICANS NEED TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE TASK BEFORE HER IN TERMS OF OF CHANGING POLICY AND MAKING IT EASIER PERHAPS FOR PEOPLE TO COME INTO THE COUNTRY PARTICULARLY FROM CENTRAL AMERICA?

>> SO THAT QUESTION ALSO HAS A LOT OF MOVING PARTS, BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS REALLY HAS JUST OVER 3 YEARS TO TRY AND FIX A PROBLEM THAT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

SHE PROBABLY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FIX IT ALL BECAUSE THAT WILL PRETTY MUCH TAKE A MIRACLE.

THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH TIME.

BUT SHE CAN ADVANCE THE ADMINISTRATION'S POLICIES AS FAR AS SHE CAN BASICALLY, AND THEN THE OTHER THING THAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE FULL SPECTRUM OF IMMIGRATION LAW IS DETERMINED BY CONGRESS.

THE ADMINISTRATION IS ONLY TASKED WITH FOLLOWING THROUGH WITH WHAT CONGRESS HAS SET ALREADY, AND RIGHT NOW WHAT WE HAVE IS THE MODEL THAT IS FAMILY BASED AND SOME CALL IT ARCHAIC AND IN NEED OF REFORM.

SO SOME OF THE FOCUS BEING PLACED ON THE ADMINISTRATION IS REALLY MISDIRECTED.

IT REALLY SHOULD BE TALKING TO CONGRESS TO CREATE A WHOLE ENTIRE OVERHAUL OF THE SYSTEM TO MAKE IT MORE UPDATED BASICALLY.

>> LET'S TURN TO LOOKING AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN CENTRAL AMERICA, AND SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID MANY CERTAINLY THAT IF THE ISSUES THAT GET FIXED IN CENTRAL AMERICA, ACTUALLY GET FIXED THEN THAT'S GOING TO IMPACT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WANTING TO MIGRATE INTO THE UNITED STATES THINGS LIKE PUBLIC PUBLIC SAFETY.

AND ALSO THE ECONOMY SO WHAT SHOULD THE AMERICAN INTERESTS BE IN TRYING TO TO HIM INFLUENCE SOME OF THAT AND WHAT WHAT'S BEEN PROBLEMATIC ABOUT THE CURRENT POLICIES?

>> THE ISSUES THAT ARE GOING ON IN CENTRAL AMERICA REGARDING INSTABILITY HAVE ALWAYS FOUND THEIR WAYS INTO THE UNITED STATES.

SO THE UNITED STATES IS HEAVILY INVESTED IN ENSURING THAT SOME FORM OF STABILITY JUST TO PROTECT ITS OWN DOMESTIC SITUATION INSIDE THE U.S..

THE BEST WAY TO DO IT IN THEORY AND IN PRACTICE IS ACTUALLY TO FIX THE GOVERNMENTS.

SO OBVIOUSLY THE U.S. IS LIMITED IN WHAT IT CAN ACTUALLY DO BUT SHOWING SUPPORT FOR THOSE GOVERNMENTS TO JUST FIND A MORE STABLE AND DEMOCRATIC PROCESS IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY OF FIXING THE PROBLEM THAT SHOWS UP AT OUR BORDERS.

>> BUT HAVEN'T SOME OF THE FOREIGN POLICY TACTICS THAT ARE CURRENTLY IN PLACE IN CENTRAL AMERICA, HELP TO EXACERBATE THE PROBLEM AND SORT OF CAUSE PEOPLE OR MAKE IT A LESS FRIENDLY PLACE TO WANT TO BE AND PEOPLE JUST WANT TO COME TO THE U.S.?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

SO THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TROUBLE IN THAT AREA, AND THAT REALLY HAS LED TO A LOT OF WHAT WE SEE NOW THOSE SURGES THOSE CARAVANS THAT ARE MAKING THEIR WAY TO THE UNITED STATES BORDERS, IT'S DEFINITELY IMPACTED BY THE INSTABILITY IN THOSE COUNTRIES.

>> AND HOW MUCH OF THIS IS TIED TO RACE YOU THINK?

I MEAN IT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT THING CERTAINLY TO HAVE FOLKS FROM ACROSS THE WATERS, COMING INTO THE UNITED STATES THEY CAN'T VERY EASILY COME IN BY PLANE AND SO FORTH SO WE HAVE THE GEOGRAPHIC EASE OF BEING ABLE TO HAVE FOLKS COMING FROM CENTRAL AMERICA INTO THE U.S., BUT YOU KNOW, THERE'S THIS IDEA THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE A CONTROL OF THE NUMBER OR THE VOLUME OF PEOPLE MIGRATING FROM THAT AREA INTO THE UNITED STATES.

HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM OR AN ISSUE THE THING RACE PLAYS IN OUR TOLERANCE AND THE CONCERN FOR MAKING SURE THAT WE SECURE THE BORDER?

>> RACE DEFINITELY PLAYS A FACTOR IN HOW THE POLICIES ARE ENACTED IN THESE ADMINISTRATIONS.

YOU LOOK AT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HE'S QUITE CLEAR ABOUT HIS PREFERENCE FOR EUROPEAN BASED IMMIGRANTS, HE CALLED THE NON EUROPEAN COUNTRIES THE "A-HOLE" COUNTRIES DIRECT QUOTE, AND THAT WAS FILTERED INTO HIS POLICIES WHERE HE PRETTY MUCH CLOSED THE BORDERS TO SOME NON-EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND WHILE SPEAKING FAVORABLY FOR THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.

SO A LOT OF THAT FILTERS INTO THE DIRECT POLICIES AND WE SEE IT IN EFFECT.

IMMIGRATION ON A WHOLE LIKE I ALREADY SAID, IT'S A MATTER FOR CONGRESS AND IT AFFECTS EVERYBODY WHETHER YOU ARE FROM A EUROPEAN BASE, OR A NON-EUROPEAN BASED COUNTRY.

BUT LIKE I SAID THAT IS NOT BEEN FIXED FOR A VERY VERY LONG TIME SO THE ACTUAL BIG LAWS THAT AFFECT THE MAJORITY OF IMMIGRATION HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

BUT THE POLICY IS WHERE RACE PLAYS THE BIGGEST FACTOR.

>> WELL NO DOUBT VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS HAS A LOT ON HER HAND SO WE THANK YOU FOR YOUR INSIGHTS.

ATTORNEY DAVID MUFUKA.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AS MORE PEOPLE GET VACCINATED AND STATES OPEN BACK UP, MANY ARE FINDING A SHORTAGE OF EMPLOYEES.

>> SOME SAY IT'S BECAUSE TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE MAKING MORE MONEY SITTING AT HOME COLLECTING AN AMERICAN RESCUE UNEMPLOYMENT CHECK.

SO LAWMAKERS ARE PUSHING BILLS TO END THE CHECKS NOW RATHER THAN RECEIVE THEM THROUGH SEPTEMBER SO FAR 25 STATES HAVE APPROVED MEASURES TO DO SO BUT THEY'RE ALSO WANTING TO REDIRECT THOSE FUNDS TO OFFER INCENTIVE CHECKS FOR PEOPLE WHO DO GET BACK TO WORK.

LET'S CHECK IN WITH OUR ROUND TABLE ON THIS.

I WANT TO WELCOME POLITICAL ANALYSTS ED HANES, CHAIR OF NORTH CAROLINA, CONSERVATIVE BLACK VOICES ADDUL ALI, AND THE PRESIDENT CEO, A SUBSTANTIAL MEDIA LLC GREG HEDGEPETH.

GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING AND BEING A PART OF THE CONVERSATION, GREG, LET ME OPEN WITH YOU WHAT IS THE SITUATION HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA IN TERMS OF WHAT LAWMAKERS ARE OFFERING TO DO?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON DEBORAH AND I'LL BE COMPLETELY HONEST WITH YOU, I TRULY BELIEVE THAT WE'RE IN THIS PARADOX RIGHT NOW.

THERE ARE 8 MILLION LESS JOBS THAN THERE WERE PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC, YET WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE WILLING TO ACTUALLY FILL THOSE POSITIONS.

AND LET'S BE CLEAR WHILE THE EASY SOLUTION IS FOLKS AREN'T GOING BACK TO WORK SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY'RE GETTING AN ADDITIONAL BENEFIT.

I THINK THAT IS -- CUTTING THAT BENEFIT OFF IS KIND OF APPLYING A SPEEDBOAT SOLUTION TO A TITANIC TYPE PROBLEM.

AND SO WHEN WE THINK ABOUT WHO THOSE FOLKS ARE, THOSE ARE THE FOLKS THAT ARE RECEIVING THAT ADDITIONAL BENEFIT OR HAVE BEEN UNEMPLOYED PROBABLY FOR SOME TIME SINCE MARCH 2020 IF NOT PRIOR TO THAT.

AND THEN OUTSIDE OF THAT, YOU KNOW I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF FACTORS THAT ARE CONTRIBUTING TO WHY TO SOME DEGREE THEY'RE RECEIVING THAT UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.

WHAT WE KNOW THAT THOSE HIGH-PAYING JOBS, THERE'S HUGE DEMAND AND CHALLENGE TO ACTUALLY HAVE THOSE BUT IT'S THOSE LOWER PAYING, HOURLY WAGE JOBS THAT I BELIEVE WE'RE BEGINNING TO SEE THOSE SHORTAGES.

>> WELL LET ME BRING YOU IN HERE ADDUL, IS THERE A LABOR SHORTAGE OUT THERE?

>> I MEAN IT'S OBVIOUS AS I'VE TRAVELED ACROSS THE STATE OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS AS THINGS ARE STARTING TO OPEN BACK UP LIKE THE BROTHER JUST SAID, THOSE HOURLY RESTAURANT TYPE WORKERS, SERVICE INDUSTRY TYPE JOBS ARE SHORT ON STAFF, YOU KNOW, I'VE SEEN, TALKED TO MULTIPLE BUSINESS OWNERS WHO HAVE HAD TO CUT HOURS AT THEIR BUSINESS, THAT'S CUT THEIR OWN REVENUE BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH WORKERS.

I'VE BEEN IN HARDWARE STORES, LOCALLY ON HARDWARE STORES WHERE FOLKS JUST DON'T HAVE THE PEOPLE TO SERVICE TO CUSTOMERS THAT WANT TO GET SERVICE, I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS WE HAVE TO LOOK AT ESPECIALLY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS WE NEED TO STOP LOOKING AT THESE LOW SKILLED, LOW HOURLY RATE JOBS AS A CAREER.

THE SHOULD BE LOOKED AT AS STEPPING STONE OPPORTUNITIES.

NOBODY SHOULD BE LOOKING AT A FAST FOOD JOB AS A LONG-TERM CAREER AND I THINK WE'VE JUST GOT TO KIND OF SHIFT OUR THINKING ABOUT WHAT THOSE JOBS ACTUALLY MEAN WHAT THEY SHOULD BE USED FOR.

>> WELL ED LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THOSE PARTICULAR JOBS AND THE FACT THAT THE HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY IS VERY LARGE HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA.

DOES THE HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY NEED TO BE PROVIDING MAYBE INCENTIVES TO GET FOLKS BACK TO WORK?

IS THERE A SHORTAGE?

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT IT AND I THINK YOU MAKE A VERY GOOD POINT.

>> A LOT OF THE NARRATIVE AROUND THERE BEING A LACK OF JOBS IS DRIVEN BY HIGHLY ACTIVE AND VERY GOOD RESTAURANT AND HOSPITALITY LOBBYING COALITION AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND SO WE ARE LOOKING AT ABOUT HALF OF THE JOBS AROUND THE COUNTRY, 8 MILLION THAT DO NOT EXIST RIGHT NOW OR THEIR EMPTY RIGHT NOW.

ABOUT HALF OF THEM ARE IN RESTAURANTS AND HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY.

AND SO THAT DRIVES A NARRATIVE BUT WHAT IT REALLY ALSO DOES IS IT KEEPS US AWAY FROM FOLKS ON THE FACT THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN HIGHER PAYING JOBS BEFORE THE PANDEMIC THAT WERE CUT DURING THE PANDEMIC THAT SIMPLY CAN'T AND MAYBE PERHAPS SHOULDN'T GO INTO WAITRESSING OR HOSTING JOBS IN RESTAURANTS AND TAKING AVAILABLE JOBS FROM MORE QUALIFIED WORKERS AND THEREIN PUTTING THE RESTAURANT AND LODGING AND HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY IN SITUATIONS WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE THESE PEOPLE, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO RETRAIN THESE PEOPLE, AND WE ALREADY UNDERSTAND THAT'S THE MOST EXPENSIVE THING THAT A BUSINESS OWNER CAN DO.

AND SO WHILE I AGREE WHOLLY THAT WE ARE ABSOLUTELY HAVE A JOB SHORTAGE OR WE HAVE A WORKER SHORTAGE OUT THERE RIGHT NOW THERE ARE 8 MILLION JOBS AVAILABLE, AND THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE OUT OF WORK, BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE I BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE ARE REALLY GETTING INTO THE RIGHT JOB AT THE RIGHT TIMES.

>> WELL GREG, YOU KNOW WHEN IT COMES TO GETTING PEOPLE INTO THE RIGHT JOBS AND SO FORTH WE TAKE A LOOK AT THE OVERALL ECONOMY, WHAT COULD BE THE IMPACT OF CUTTING OFF BENEFITS RIGHT NOW IN ORDER TO TRY TO DRIVE PEOPLE INTO THE LABOR MARKET?

WHAT COULD BE THE THE LARGER ECONOMIC IMPACT?

>> WELL, FIRST AND FOREMOST, LET'S BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES.

GOT MONEY, WE'LL SPEND IT RIGHT?

AND SO WHEN WE BEGIN TO THINK ABOUT THE STIMULUS PACKAGE AND THE REASON WHY THESE DOLLARS HAVE BEEN GIVEN, IT IS TO ENSURE THAT THE ECONOMY, THAT FOLKS ARE OUT HERE SPENDING MONEY.

SO EVERY PERSON THAT RIGHT NOW IS RECEIVING THAT ADDITIONAL BENEFIT OF MAYBE $300 A WEEK OR SO, THEY'RE SPENDING THOSE DOLLARS.

YOU THINK ABOUT THE GAS SHORTAGE THAT JUST RECENTLY HAPPENED.

IF I'M UNEMPLOYED, I DON'T HAVE THE FUNDS, HOW AM I GETTING THE GAS?

HOW AM I DOING THESE BARE NECESSITIES, GOING TO THE GROCERY STORE?

FOR THOSE FOLKS THAT ARE STILL IN THAT LOCAL RESTAURANT INDUSTRY, HOW AM I GOING AND INDULGING ON A WEEKEND, IF YOU WILL, THE FAST FOOD?

SO TO SOME DEGREE, LET'S BE CLEAR; THE ECONOMY, THE STATES THAT ARE EVEN LOBBYING, IF YOU WILL, TO HAVE THESE UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS CUT OFF THEY HAVE BENEFITED FROM THE FACT THAT THESE FOLKS ARE GETTING THIS UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.

>> BUT IF YOU CUT OFF THE UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT, THERE PEOPLE WHO ARE AT HOME RIGHT NOW WHO WOULDN'T BE SPENDING THAT MONEY YES, BUT, TAKE STUDENTS FOR EXAMPLE, THEY'RE THE ONES WHO WOULD BE FORCED BACK INTO THE LABOR MARKET BECAUSE NOW THEY'RE NOT MAKING THAT MONEY AND THEY MIGHT EVEN HAVE STUDENT LOAN REPAYMENTS.

>> I DON'T KNOW I'LL BE COMPLETELY HONEST WITH YOU I THINK IT'S KIND OF THAT EBB AND FLOW THAT'S BEGINNING TO HAPPEN.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE CONTRIBUTING FACTORS THAT HAVE CAUSED A LOT OF PEOPLE RIGHT NOW TO SAY "HEY I HAVE "REASSESSED WHERE I AM IN LIFE BECAUSE COVID IS GIVING ME AN "OPPORTUNITY TO PAUSE," I'M EITHER GOING TO GO BACK AND GET A 2-YEAR DEGREE, SOME KIND OF TECHNICAL TRAINING, I'M GOING TO GO TO A FOUR-YEAR INSTITUTION AND ACQUIRE THE EDUCATION NECESSARY TO LIVE OUT WHATEVER THAT AMERICAN DREAM IS THAT EVERYBODY SAYS I GET ONCE I GO OUT AND GET AN EDUCATION, AND SO NOW AS THE BROTHER HAD SAID, I'M GOING TO TAKE A PAUSE FROM THIS HOURLY WAGE, LOW INCOME JOB TO BEGIN TO PURSUE THOSE THINGS NECESSARY TO FULFILL WHAT I BELIEVE IS A MORE IF YOU WILL A FULFILLING LIFE.

>> RIGHT RIGHT, BUT SO LET ME GET ADDUL IN HERE, YOU KNOW IF WE CUT OFF THESE CHECKS, IS THE EFFECT GOING TO BE WHAT PEOPLE EXPECT THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET MORE PEOPLE COMING INTO THIS JOBS MARKET, FILLING THOSE JOBS THAT ARE OUT THERE THAT PEOPLE DESPERATELY NEED TO GET FILLED?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE'S A POTENTIALITY FOR THAT.

MY BROTHER SAID, THERE'S AN EBB AND FLOW AND THAT I THINK THIS IS A SYMPTOM OF A BIGGER PROBLEM WHICH IS GOVERNMENT'S HAND IN THE PRIVATE MARKETS.

A LOT OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAVING ITS HAND IN MARKETS THAT IT SHOULDN'T HAVE THEIR HANDS IN.

I THINK THE DANGER MORE SPECIFICALLY FROM WHAT I'M SEEING ON THE GROUND IS THAT WE GET PAINTED WITH THIS BROAD PAINTBRUSH THAT IT'S BLACK PEOPLE AND THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

I THINK THE DIFFICULTY IN THIS IS THAT SURE WE WANT THOSE DOLLARS TO STIMULATE THE ECONOMY BUT MY QUESTION WOULD BE IN JUST, TO PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE A LITTLE BIT, IF WE WERE TO SUBSIDIZE OR GIVE THOSE DOLLARS TO PEOPLE ALREADY WORKING AND SAY "HEY IF YOU'RE ALREADY WORKING HERE'S AN EXTRA "300 BUCKS A MONTH," WOULD THAT MOTIVATE PEOPLE TO GET BACK INTO THE LABOR MARKET?

SO I AGREE WITH THE BROTHER TO EBB AND FLOW IT'S KIND OF A GIVE AND TAKE IT'S A TOUCHY THING BUT I THINK IT'S A SYMPTOM OF THE PROBLEM OF THE FEDS HAVING THEIR HANDS IN PRIVATE MARKET AND THEY SHOULDN'T.

LAST THING, I'LL SAY ON THIS IS THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION DID NOT SET THIS GOVERNMENT UP TO BE A WELFARE SYSTEM.

THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY -- THIS IS THE FURTHEST THING THAT THEY HAD IN THEIR MINDS IS GOVERNMENT SUPPORTING INDIVIDUALS DAY TO DAY LIVES.

NOT WHAT THIS COUNTRY WAS SET UP TO BE.

I THINK WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO SET PEOPLE UP FOR SUCCESS IN THEIR INDIVIDUAL CAPACITIES AND I DON'T SEE THE GOVERNMENT CHECKS ARE A WAY TO DO THAT.

>> WELL, ED LET ME GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT AS WELL AS THIS WHOLE IDEA OF SHIFTING THE MONEY TO AN INCENTIVE BASED KIND OF PROGRAM.

>> LOOK I'LL TELL YOU FRANKLY THAT I SAY THANK GOD THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS PUT THEIR HANDS IN THE MARKET AT TIMES IN OUR COUNTRY'S PAST AND CURRENT STATE, ESPECIALLY AS IT HAS IMPACTED THE BLACK COMMUNITY OVER THE YEARS.

WHAT I'LL ALSO SAY IS THAT, LOOK, THERE ARE HUNDREDS AND 100'S OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS COMING FROM THE STATE GOING TO INDUSTRIES TO BACKLOG LOSSES.

ALL THAT STUFF IS HAPPENING ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

SO WHY COULDN'T WHY SHOULDN'T THE GOVERNMENT HAVE THEIR HAND IN THE ECONOMY AT THIS POINT TO BACKLOG THE LOSSES OF EVERY DAY WORKERS WHO ARE OUT THERE TRYING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, WHO LOST THEIR JOBS DURING THE PANDEMIC, WHO ARE ABSOLUTELY, AS THE BROTHER SAID, GOING TO SPEND THAT MONEY AND PUT IT BACK IN THE COMMUNITY BUT THEY'RE GOING TO PUT IT IN DAY CARE.

THEY'RE GOING TO PUT IT IN DAY TO DAY RESOURCES THEY'RE GOING TO PUT IT INTO HELPING FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE ALSO HURTING.

THIS IS WHAT WE DO IN OUR COMMUNITY.

THIS STUFF IS NOT JUST COMING BACK AND JUST GOING TO SIT IN ONE HOUSEHOLD.

AS WE ALL KNOW THESE DOLLARS ARE GOING TO BE PASSED ON FROM HOME TO HOME AND FROM STREET TO STREET AND INTO COMMUNITY STORES AND WHAT NOT SO IN TERMS OF MONEY BEING SHIFTED AROUND, THANK GOD THE GOVERNMENT IS THERE AT THIS POINT TO HELP PEOPLE.

>> WELL THE AND YOU KNOW THAT BRINGS ME TO TALKING ABOUT WOMEN, THERE ARE A LOT OF WOMEN OUT THERE WHO HAD TO LEAVE THE WORK PLACE AND ARE NOT GOING BACK IN BECAUSE THERE'S A SCHOOL SITUATION PERHAPS AND THEY'VE GOT CHILDREN AT HOME AND CAN'T AFFORD TO GO GET A JOB THAT DOESN'T PAY ENOUGH FOR THEM TO AFFORD THE DAY CARE TO TAKE CARE OF THE KIDS.

SO THAT INCENTIVE ISN'T GOING TO NECESSARILY HELP YOU FOR THE 2 MONTHS, OF THIS LOW PAYING JOB.

AND ISN'T IT MORE IMPORTANT TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING TO RAISE MINIMUM WAGES OR RAISE WAGES PERIOD?

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY I THINK THAT'S WHAT I THINK THAT'S A GREAT POINT AND IT'S KIND OF GOING TO GET INTO ANOTHER POINT I KNOW THAT WE'RE GETTING TO A LITTLE BIT LATER BUT LISTEN WE'RE NOT GOING TO KNOW FOR YEARS FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.

THE IMPACT OF COVID HAS HAD ON CHILDREN WHO HAD TO SIT AT HOME AND BE AT HOME BY THEMSELVES SOMETIMES OR MOST OF THE TIME AND THE EMOTIONAL IMPACT THAT HAD ON MOTHERS ACROSS THE COMMUNITY, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR RACE IS BUT FROM COMMUNITY TO COMMUNITY.

THE IMPACT THE EMOTIONAL IMPACT THAT HAD ON MOTHERS AND FATHERS WHO ARE FORCED TO LEAVE THEIR CHILDREN AT HOME.

AND IN THIS SORT OF SITUATION WHERE FOR THE FIRST TIME PERHAPS IN THESE PEOPLE'S LIVES, THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A CHOICE AS TO WHETHER TO SPEND THAT TIME SPEND THIS MONEY AND SPEND THAT TIME HELPING THEIR KIDS FINDING SOME TUTORING FINDING SOME DAY CARE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THEIR KIDS AND DOING THAT FOR AS LONG AS THEY CAN IT'S VERY HARD TO TELL A PARENT NOT TO DO THAT.

>> DEBORAH IF I COULD JUST REAL QUICKLY SPEAK TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY I THINK WHAT THESE ADDITIONAL DOLLARS HAVE DONE IS GIVEN THOSE TRADITIONALLY THAT HAVE BEEN UNEMPOWERED DISENFRANCHISED UN-UNIONIZED AN OPTION.

A LOT OF TIMES WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT THOSE EMPLOYERS THAT ARE COMPLAINING RIGHT NOW ABOUT THAT KIND OF LABOR SHORTAGE, THOSE HOURLY JOBS, THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF FOLKS THAT OCCUPY THEM AND SO WHAT THEY NOW HAVE IS AN OPTION.

THEY NOW HAVE AN OPTION TO SAY, "HEY I'M GOING TO STAY "AT HOME AND I'M GOING TO HELP MY CHILD.

"MY CHILD'S DAY CARE IS NOW SHUT DOWN.

"SO I DON'T HAVE TO NOW FIGURE OUT IF I'M "GOING TO DO X AND Y, "AND GRANDMA THEY CAN'T WATCH MY CHILD."

BECAUSE WHAT ONLY 48% OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION HAS BEEN VACCINATED AT THIS POINT AND THAT'S ADULTS AND SO WHEN YOU START TO THINK ABOUT THESE OTHER CONTRIBUTING FACTORS YOU IMMEDIATELY BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A LARGER THING AT PLAY HERE AND IT IS NOT THE EASY SOLUTION.

>> WELL, THERE ARE DEFINITELY SOME OPTIONS.

>> WELL IT'S GRADUATION SEASON AND JUST AS SO MANY GRADUATES HAVE BEEN TAKING ON THE THRILL OF ATTENDING GRADUATION IN PERSON AND BEING HANDED THAT DIPLOMA, ASHEBORO GARNERS NATIONAL ATTENTION WHEN THE STORY ABOUT A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT WHO DECIDED TO DRAPE THE MEXICAN FLAG AROUND HIS GOWN AS HE WENT UP TO RECEIVE HIS DIPLOMA WAS DENIED HIS DIPLOMA AND INSTEAD THE PRINCIPAL OF THE SCHOOL HAD HIS FAMILY ESCORTED OUT OF THE CEREMONY BY POLICE.

THE CRIME?

NOT ABIDING BY THE GRADUATION DRESS CODE.

SINCE THE STORY BROKE THOUGH, THE SCHOOL HAS ISSUED THE YOUNG MAN HIS DIPLOMA.

BUT THE BIG QUESTION REMAINS WHO WAS OUT OF ORDER.

WHY INDEED THE CONSEQUENCE FIT THE TRANSGRESSION?

GENTLEMEN, LET ME START WITH YOU ED, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS?

>> IT'S THE BIGGEST SELF-INFLICTED WOUND BY A SCHOOL ADMINISTRATOR I THINK I HAVE EVER SEEN.

THE FOLLOW-UP WHEN THE FAMILY GOES TO RETRIEVE THE DIPLOMA AND THEY'RE REFUSED AND CONFRONTED WITH THE POLICE IS EVEN WORSE.

I TELL YOU I SAW THE APOLOGY ISSUED FROM THE SCHOOL.

I SAW THE STATEMENT OF THE YOUNG MAN, I STILL HAVE NOT SEEN ANY POLICY THAT THE SCHOOL SYSTEM HAS RELEASED YET.

>> NEITHER HAVE I.

>> NO ONE HAS SEEN THIS POLICY >> ONLY READ ABOUT IT.

>> ONLY READ ABOUT THAT IT ALLEGEDLY EXISTS.

I HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET.

BUT LOOK, THIS IS -- I CAN TELL YOU, I LIVED IN ASHBORO FOR 6 OR 7 YEARS.

AND AS AN ADULT AND I CAN TELL YOU FRANKLY THAT THE CHILDREN, THE BLACK CHILDREN WHO LIVE ON THE HILL ARE NOT TREATED LIKE THE STUDENTS FROM THE MOUNTAIN.

AND HISPANIC STUDENTS ARE TREATED EVEN WORSE.

AND SO THESE ARE - THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WHEN ASHEBORO CITY SCHOOLS SAYS, "WE'RE A WELCOMING ENVIRONMENT, WE'RE "DOING ALL THE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO," I WOULD TELL THEM THEY NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT ACTUALLY TALK TO SOME OF THESE KIDS IN THE COMMUNITIES WHO ATTEND THEIR SCHOOL AND WHO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS TYPE OF SITUATION ALMOST ON A DAILY BASIS OUR LAST 4 YEARS OF POLITICS HAVE NOT HELPED.

THAT SITUATION THERE, THERE'S A REAL ISSUE AND NOW SOMETHING VERY TROUBLING TO SEE IN 2021.

>> WHICH YOU KNOW ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS IS YOU KNOW THAT ALSO THAT WE HAVE A NEW GENERATION THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW IT'S ABOUT INDIVIDUAL IS BUT THEN THERE'S THE ARGUMENT ABOUT LISTEN, THERE WAS A THERE'S TRADITION OUT THERE THERE'S DECORUM, THERE ARE RULES THERE ARE DRESS CODES, GREG, BUT ALSO YOU HAVE SOME HISTORY WITH THE AREA AS WELL.

I WANT TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> LISTEN AT THE END OF THE DAY, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH WHAT MY FELLOW PANELIST SAID.

I'LL SHARE THOUGH WE ARE RIGHT NOW TRYING TO FIT AN EVOLVING SOCIETY INTO OLD OUTDATED SYSTEMS.

AT THE PRIME OF WHAT THIS IS FOR ME, IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO LOOK AT SOME OF THE POLICIES, SOME OF THE RULES, REGULATIONS, GUIDELINES THAT WE HAVE ON THE BOOKS AND BEGIN TO CUT THROUGH SOME OF THIS RED TAPE AND BUREAUCRACY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY THAT ADMINISTRATOR HELD UP - WHATEVER THAT POLICY WAS - WRITTEN, NOT WRITTEN, SPOKEN, UNSPOKEN, AND SO ON FACE VALUE WHAT SHE DID WAS RIGHT.

RIGHT?

THERE'S A POLICY I ENFORCED IT.

SHOES AND SHIRTS REQUIRED.

>> WHAT SHE DID WAS RIGHT, IN TERMS OF THE LEVEL OF PUNISHMENT?

DOES SHE HAVE TO TELL HIM NO DIPLOMA RIGHT NOW?

DID SHE HAVE TO HAVE THE POLICE ESCORT THE FAMILY OUT?

THESE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN THROUGH A LOT THIS YEAR.

>> NO, NO, LET'S BE CLEAR ON WHAT I'M SAYING.

I'M SAYING FOR FACE VALUE, WHAT SHE DID, THERE IS A POLICY ON THE BOOKS RIGHT?

THEN THAT POLICY EXISTS AND THAT POLICY WAS UPHELD.

BUT NOW AS FAR AS THE ACTION, WARNING, THE CRIME?

NO.

SO FOR ME, IT'S A MATTER OF LOOKING AT SOME OF THOSE POLICIES, SOME OF THOSE THINGS THAT ARE ON THE BOOKS AND BEGINNING TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE BEGIN TO CHANGE THOSE.

>> LET ME BRING YOU IN HERE ADDUL FOR YOUR COMMENTS.

>> SO LOOK, I AGREE WITH THE BROTHERS IN THAT THAT WAS A BIT MUCH.

CALLING A COP, THAT'S GOING A LITTLE TOO FAR.

I'M AS PATRIOTIC AS THE NEXT GUY, BUT I DON'T THINK CALLING THE COPS AND HAVING THE FAMILY ESCORTED OUT WAS THERE BUT ON THE SAME ON THE SAME TOKEN, WHAT COUNTRY ARE YOU GETTING YOUR DIPLOMA IN?

YOU'RE NOT GETTING YOUR DIPLOMA IN MEXICO.

HOW MANY GRADUATIONS IN MEXICO.

I'M I GOING TO GO TO AND FIND AN AMERICAN FLAG DRAPED AROUND A HIGH SCHOOL KID IN MEXICO, AND I DARE SAY NONE.

HOW ABOUT AN AMERICAN FLAG DRAPED AROUND A KID HERE?

SO WOULD THE REACTION HAVE BEEN THE SAME... >> THAT WAS MY POINT IS WITH THAT WOULD WE HAVE THIS CONVERSATION IF IT WAS AN AMERICAN FLAG?

>> NO!

>> I DOUBT THAT WE WOULD HAVE >> I'LL BE HONE -- GO AHEAD, I'M SORRY.

>> WHAT I WAS GOING TO SIMPLY SAY IS I THINK WE'VE -- I AGREE WITH YOU ALL IN THAT THEY TREATED HIM WRONG.

HAVING HIS FAMILY ESCORTED OUT LIKE THAT WAS EMBARRASSING, I THINK IT WAS A BIT MUCH, BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE DO HAVE STANDARDS, WE DO HAVE DECORUM WE SHOULD BE LOOKING TO TRY TO INSTILL THAT IN OUR STUDENTS WHEN WE GRADUATE.

GOOD LUCK ON GOING TO A JOB INTERVIEW FOR A JOB THAT YOU WANT AND DRESSING HOWEVER YOU WANT WHEN THEY HAVE A DRESS CODE TO THAT JOB, GOOD LUCK WITH GOING INTO A FIVE-STAR RESTAURANT THAT HAS A DRESS CODE AND YOU'RE COMPLETELY OUT OF THAT DRESS CODE GETTING INTO THAT 5 STAR RESTAURANT.

SO.

>> THAT'S RIGHT, SO >> I JUST THINK THERE WAS A BIT OF AN OVER REACTION.

I HEAR YOU AND ADDUL ALI, I'M SORRY WE HAVE TO WRAP IT UP RIGHT NOW, BUT ADDUL ALI, ED HANES, GREG HEDGEPETH THANK YOU SO MUCH GREAT CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU.

I WANT TO THANK TODAYS GUESTS.

WE INVITE YOU TO ENGAGE WITH US TWITTER OR INSTAGRAMUSINGTHE HASHTAG "BLACK ISSUES FORUM".

YOU CAN ALSO FIND OUR FULL EPISODES ON PBSNC.ORG/BLACKISSUESFORUM OR LISTEN AT ANY TIME ON APPLE ITUNES, SPOTIFY, OR GOOGLE PODCASTS.

FOR BLACK ISSUES FORUM, I'M DEBORAH HOLT NOEL.

THANKS FOR WATCHING!

♪ >> QUALITY PUBLIC TELEVISION IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS OF VIEWERS LIKE YOU WHO INVITE YOU TO JOIN THEM IN SUPPORTING PBSNC.