>> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

AND WHAT A WEEK IT HAS BEEN AND WHAT A WEEK IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE!

MY GUESTS TODAY, FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN DONNA EDWARDS OF MARYLAND, PATRICE LEE ONWUKA WITH THE INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM, DEBRA CARNAHAN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND STATE JUDGE FROM MISSOURI, AND RINA SHAH AURORA, HEAD OF REPUBLICAN WOMEN FOR BIDEN.

SO LET'S LOOK AHEAD.

AFTER THE WIDELY CALLED DISASTER OF THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE, LARGELY BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP DID NOT ACT VERY PRESIDENTIAL, WE GO ON TO THE KAMALA HARRIS TO MIKE PENCE DEBATE.

FIRST OF ALL, IS IT GOING TO GET LUNCH ATTENTION IN THE WAKE OF THIS MAJOR DISASTER THAT WAS THE TRUMP BIDEN DEBATE?

DONNA?

>> I DO THINK, BONNIE, IT WILL GET ATTENTION.

I THINK THAT THE KAMALA HARRIS CANDIDACY IS UNIQUE AND HISTORIC.

I THINK PEOPLE WILL WANT TO TURN IN BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HER VERY WELL AND IT WILL BE A GOOD CHANCE FOR HER TO INTRODUCE HERSELF TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

AND I DON'T THINK IT WILL ACTUALLY BE ANYTHING LIKE THEM AS OF THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE, BECAUSE MICHAEL PENCE, MIKE PENCE IS NOT DONALD TRUMP.

HE WILL PRESENT A DIFFERENT CHALLENGE FOR KAMALA HARRIS, BUT IT WILL NOT BE THE KIND OF RUCKUS, INTERRUPTING, BULLYING MASS THAT SPELLED THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE.

>> WELL, HE'S KIND OF THE ACCIDENT UNTIL THE EXACT OPPOSITE IN TRUMP IN THAT WAY, IS HE NOT?

FIRST OFF, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY ABOUT HIS POLITICS AND HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, HE IS MUCH MORE PRESIDENTIAL THAN THE PRESIDENT, CORRECT?

HE'S NOT RUDE, HE DOES NOT CALL PEOPLE NAMES, HE DOES NOT ACT LIKE A SPOILED HIGH SCHOOL OR GRADE SCHOOL CHILD.

HE'S VERY DIGNIFIED, RIGHT?

>> WELL, THAT'S RIGHT.

AND SO, HIS DEMEANOR WILL BE RESPECTFUL OF THE OFFICE THAT HE HOLDS AND I THINK KAMALA HARRIS' CHALLENGE WILL BE TO CHALLENGE HIM ON THE ISSUES IN THE SUBSTANCE, AND IT WILL BE A DEBATE WHAT WE COME TO KNOW TRADITIONALLY AS DEBATES.

AND I HOPE THAT IS A LESSON LEARNED FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLEUT I DON'T THINK THE DEBACLE OF LAST NIGHT SHOULD EVER BE REPEATED AGAIN.

>> TO ME LAST WEEK?

>> LAST WEEK.

>> OKAY!

PATRICE ONWUKA, WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHTS?

THE ORGANIZATION DOES NOT TAKE POLITICAL POSITIONS, BUT YOU ARE A TRUE, SOLID CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN IN THE MOLD OF MITCH McCONNELL OR THE OTHER SENATORS WHO SUPPORT THE POLICIES OF DONALD TRUMP.

>> WELL, THINKING AHEAD TO THE VP DEBATE, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH DONNA EDWARDS.

IT WILL BE A VERY DIFFERENT ATMOSPHERE, A DIFFERENT TONE.

I THINK IT WILL BE MORE SOMBER, CERTAINLY MORE POLICY FOCUSED.

I THINK PEOPLE WILL BE WATCHING TO SEE WHETHER KAMALA HARRIS IS GOING TO BE THE PROSECUTOR AGAINST THE VICE PRESIDENT AND TRY TO, YOU KNOW, SKEWER HIM A LITTLE BIT.

I THINK HE WILL COME OUT UNSCATHED.

HIS PRESENCE, HIS DEMEANOR, THE CALMNESS HE BRINGS TO THE OFFICE.

WAS INTERESTING, THOUGH, HE STILL A VERY ARDENT AND VOCAL SUPPORTER OF HIS BOSS, THE PRESIDENT.

HE WILL BACKUP PRESIDENT TRUMP AND MAYBE FILL IN SOME OF THE GAPS THAT PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE BEEN LEFT WITH FOLLOWING LAST WEEK'S PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE IN WITH THE PRESIDENT WAS TRYING TO ARTICULATE AND DID NOT COME ACROSS.

I THINK YOU WILL SEE VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN REALLY FILL IN THOSE GAPS, PARTICULARLY AROUND THE SUPREME COURT AND WHAT THE NATION CAN BE DOING AND LOOKING FORWARD TO WITH ANOTHER FOUR YEARS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> DEBRA CARNAHAN?

>> YES.

EMILY LOOKING FORWARD TO THE DEBATE THAT'S COMING UP.

A COUPLE THINGS I WANTED TO POINT OUT -- >> BUT LET ME ASK YOU, DO YOU THINK THIS DEBATE, THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE IS GOING TO GET AS MUCH VIEWERSHIP AND AS MUCH ATTENTION AS THIS PAST WEEK'S PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?

>> YOU KNOW, IT MAY NOT GET THE VIEWERSHIP QUITE AS MUCH BECAUSE THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL PICK NORMALLY IS NOT AS EXCITING FOR FOLKS AS THE PRESIDENTIAL PICKS, BUT I DO THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO TUNE INTO DONNA'S POINT, THEY WANT IN A MORE ABOUT SENATOR HARRIS AND THEY WANT TO SEE HER POLICIES AND HER VIEWPOINTS.

THEY ARE NOT AS FAMILIAR WITH HER.

I THINK IT'S ALSO GOING TO BE A LOT MORE CORDIAL BECAUSE YOU HAVE A FORMER CONGRESSMAN AND VICE PRESIDENT PENCE AND A SITTING SENATOR, AND THEY KNOW THE RULES OF DECORUM AND STATESMANSHIP.

I DO THINK, THOUGH THE, THAT SENATOR HARRIS WILL BE PRETTY PROSECUTORIAL IN HER TECHNIQUE.

THAT'S KIND OF A TECHNIQUE THAT'S HARD TO GET RID OF.

AND SHE SHOWED IN THE KAVANAUGH HEARINGS THAT SHE WAS VERY ARTICULATE AND SHE GETS RIGHT TO THE POINT, AND SHE WILL NOT BE SIDESTEPPED BY ANYTHING THAT VICE PRESIDENT PENCE SAYS.

>> RIGHT.

WHEN YOU HAVE MORE OF A QUIET MODERATED DEBATE, EACH SITE HAS TWO MINUTES.

HER SPECIALTY, IF YOU WILL RECALL, AND ESPECIALLY AS A FORMER PROSECUTOR HERSELF, WAS ASKING A QUESTION, WAITING A COUPLE OF SECONDS FOR A QUICK ANSWER WHILE DIES WHOSE SPRINGS DID NOT WORK, AS QUICKLY AS OURS DOES, AND SAY, OKAY, I WILL TAKE THAT AS A NO AND MOVE ON.

YOU CANNOT, CAN YOU REALLY DO THAT?

YOU CANNOT DO THAT IN THE FORUM THE WAY IT IS SET UP.

>> NO.

THAT WILL BE MORE DIFFICULT FOR HER, BECAUSE SHE WILL NOT BE DIRECTLY ASKING THE QUESTIONS.

BUT AS EVERY GOOD PROSECUTOR KNOWS, SHE DOES ASK QUESTIONS, SHE WILL ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.

SO SHE MIGHT DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> BUT WHAT MAKES YOU THINK, WHY WOULDN'T VICE PRESIDENT PENCE, HAVING BEEN PREPPED AS I'M SURE HE'S BEING, BY ALL KINDS OF TOP-FLIGHT REPUBLICAN CONSULTANTS, HE WILL KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS TOO, WON'T HE?

>> I DO THINK YOU ARE RIGHT.

WILL NOT SEE AS MANY SURPRISES.

I DO AGREE WITH PATRICE THAT WE WILL PROBABLY SEE A COUPLE SWIPES HERE AND THERE FROM THE SENATOR TO THE VICE PRESIDENT.

>> RINA, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOW WIDELY SEEN AS A LIAR, AS A MIDSTATER OF FACTS OR NON-FACTS, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.

ALL KINDS OF NEWS ORGANIZATIONS.

EVEN TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, CHRIS WALLACE, WHEN HE WAS QUESTIONING HIM AND SAID THAT'S NOT ACCURATE, THAT'S NOT ACCURATE, WHO WORKS FOR FOX NEWS, NOT EXACTLY A LEFT LEANING ORGANIZATION, HAS BEEN NAILED AS SOMEBODY WHO DOES NOT HAVE A LOT TO DO WITH THE TRUTH.

IS THAT GOING TO BE TRUE AND VICE PRESIDENT PENCE?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, ONE OF THE BEST-KNOWN THINGS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP IS THAT HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE TRUTH, RIGHT?

AND ONE OF THE EARLIEST MOMENTS IN THE DEBATE OF LAST WEEK BETWEEN HE AND JOE BIDEN, JOE BIDEN THROW OUT A FIGURE AND , TRUMP, I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU GET THAT FIGURE.

THAT'S HOW HE HANDLES THIS WAY.

I SUSPECT A LOT OF THAT HAS MADE THAT WAY TO THE VICE PRESIDENT.

I SEE A VERY DIFFERENT MIKE PENCE THAN THE ONE I SAW WHEN I WORKED ACROSS THE HALL FROM HIM AS A HILL STAFFER, YOUNG WOMAN WHO GOT TO KNOW HIM AND THE STAFF PRETTY WELL AND THOUGHT PRETTY HIGHLY OF HIM.

AND THE SAME PHRASES THAT I -- >> GIVE US A LITTLE DETAIL ABOUT WHAT YOU MEAN ABOUT THAT.

WHAT WAS HE LIKE THEN VERSUS WHAT HE'S LIKE RIGHT NOW?

>> HE WAS VERY MUCH KNOWN AS A STRAIGHT SHOOTER, SOMEONE THAT WOULD SPEAK VERY DIRECTLY, HAD SOME HEART AND COMPASSION IN HIS ANSWERS, BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S ROOTED IN HIS RELIGIOUS TRADITION.

SO HE WOULD FIND A WAY TO EXHIBIT EMPATHY.

I DO SEE A LOT OF THAT, WHEN HE'S OUT ON HIS OWN AND ENGAGEMENTS THAT ARE COVERED BY THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

I DO SEE SOME SEMBLANCE OF THAT.

I FIND HIM TO BE A DECENT AND DIGNIFIED MAN, LIKE A CALL JOE BIDEN.

BUT THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT HIS WORK FOR SOMEBODY WHO IS HIS COMPLETE OPPOSITE.

THEY ARE NIGHT AND DAY, AND I THINK THAT MIKE PENCE, THE MIKE PENCE THAT I KNEW WAS SOMEBODY WHO HAD GREAT AMBITION.

THAT'S NOT A BAD THING, WHETHER MALE OR FEMALE.

I THINK IT'S FINE TO HAVE YOUR EYES ON HIGHER OFFICE.

I THINK THE FRUSTRATION HAS BEEN HE'S NOT BEEN A REAL KEY PLAYER.

OBVIOUSLY FOR YEARS YOU HAVE SEEN VICE PRESIDENTS TAKE A BACKSEAT, BUT THE REALITY WAS I THINK HE THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO BE A BIGGER PLAYER IN THIS ADMINISTRATION AND WHAT'S BEEN OVERSHADOWED AS A BLISTER THAT DONALD TRUMP REGULAR EXHIBITS.

IN THIS DEBATE, HE HAS A CHANCE TO GO BACK TO HIS ROOTS, POLICY ROOTS, VERY PRINCIPLES.

HE'S A VERY CONSERVATIVE INDIVIDUALO PROBLEM FOR THAT.

I'M A LIFELONG CONSERVATIVE.

THERE ARE THINGS I DO AGREE WITH HIM ON, THINGS I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM ON.

ONE OF THOSE IS THAT HE DOES NOT SEEM TO BELIEVE, RECOGNIZE THAT WE HAVE THE SEPARATION OF RCH AND STATE IN THIS COUNTRY.

I LIKE THAT HE FIGHTS FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY ON ONE HAND BUT ON THE OTHER HAND HE SEEMS TO WANT TO GOVERN WITH ONLY THE BIBLE.

AS A NON-CHRISTIAN PERSON WHO ACTUALLY WENT TO PROVE A REAL SCHOOL AND SOME.

IN MY LIFE FOR MANY MANY YEARS, I MIXED UP ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT FEELS THAT THAT IS NOT GOVERNINGGOVERNING FOR EVERYONE ON THE LEE SO I SUSPECT, I WILL GO AND SAY I DON'T THINK WE WILL SEE THAT AT IN THIS DEBATE WITH KAMALA HARRIS, BUT THE SECOND THING I THINK WE ALSO LOOK FORWARD TO IS HIM TO BREAK DOWN HOW SHE'S A CALIFORNIA LIBERAL.

THAT WILL BE THE CHALLENGE FOR HER TO PUSH BACK, BECAUSE THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE, THERE WAS TALK OF CLIMATE CHANGE, THE GREEN NEW DEAL, JOE BIDEN WAS NOT REALLY ABLE TO SAY MY RIGHT HAND PICK, MY VP PICK A SOMEBODY THAT, OH, WAS NOT PART OF THAT.

SHE WAS PART OF THAT.

WAS A CHALLENGE FOR THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN.

IT'S A CHALLENGE FOR KAMALA HARRIS TO TRY TO DIVORCE THEMSELVES OF THE CALIFORNIA LIBERAL POLICIES THAT THE RIGHT IS GOING TO REALLY NAIL THEM ON.

>> DONNA, YOUR THOUGHTS, BUT ALSO, LADIES, FEEL FREE TO JUMP IN ON EACH OTHER IF SOMEONE -- NOT INTERRUPTING ALLAH DONALD TRUMP, BUT WHEN SOMEONE MAKES A PAUSE, JUMP IN IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU'RE DYING TO GET OUT IN RESPONSE TO WHAT THEY JUST SAID.

WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

KAMALA HARRIS TO ME IS A VERY COMPLEX HUMAN BEING AND SHE HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING ON EVERY SIDE OF EVERY ISSUE DEPENDING WHAT WAS MOST POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT FOR HER.

BUT, YOU KNOW, SHOW ME A POLITICIAN WHO HASN'T DONE THAT!

SO -- BUT SHE IS SEEN AS TOO CONSERVATIVE FOR MEMBERS OF THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY ON CRIME, FOR EXAMPLE.

SHE WAS A SERIOUS, HARDLINE PROSECUTOR, YET RINA IS AND SHE'S TOO FAR LEFT ON THE ENVIRONMENT.

>> LOOK, I THINK KAMALA HARRIS BRINGS AN AWFUL LOT TO THE TABLE AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU CANNOT ESCAPE IS THAT HER ROLE IS A SUPPORTIVE ONE, SUPPORTING JOE BIDEN AND THE TICKET AND WHATEVER HER VIEWS WERE DURING THE PRIMARY ELECTION, SHE SIGNED ON TO THE BIDEN PLAN AND SHE HAS EMBRACED THE.

I WILL SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE CHALLENGES MIKE PENCE IS GOING TO HAVE IS THAT THE ISSUE AT FRONT AND CENTER OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IS THE HANDLING OF THE CORONAVIRUS.

HE WAS IN CHARGE -- HE'S BEEN IN CHARGE OF THE TASK FORCE.

I THINK YOU CAN FULLY EXPECT THAT KAMALA HARRIS IS GOING TO GO AT HIM ON HIS LEADERSHIP OF THE TASK FORCE, ON THE MESSAGES THAT HAVE BEEN PUT OUT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND THE HANDLING OF THE CORONAVIRUS.

AND SO, WHILE DONALD TRUMP MAY BE SKATING AWAY FROM HIS OWN WORDS, IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY TOUGH FOR VICE PRESIDENT PENCE TO MOVE AWAY, TO BACK AWAY FROM THE SO-CALLED LEADERSHIP THAT HE PROVIDED OF THE TASK FORCE AND WHAT THAT HAS RESULTED IN THE DEATHS OF OVER 205,000 AMERICANS AND OVER 7 MILLION WHO CONTRACTED CORONAVIRUS.

HE'S NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO RUN AWAY FROM THAT, AND I THINK YOU CAN FULLY EXPECT THAT KAMALA HARRIS IS GOING TO STICK ON THAT POINT, AND IT WILL MAKE VICE PRESIDENT PENCE VERY UNCOMFORTABLE [CROSS TALK] >> IF ANYTHING, I THINK VICE PRESIDENT PENCE IS GOING TO STICK ON, AND RIGHTLY SO, IS GOING TO BE PICKING UP WHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP LEFT OFF AT THE END OF THE DEBATE TALKING ABOUT THE PROTESTS, CIVIL UNREST, HOW PEACEFUL PROTESTS HAVE BEEN HIJACKED BY SOME PRETTY VIOLENT ACTORS, AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A HARD CHARGE FOR KAMALA HARRIS TO BE ABLE TO RESPOND TO AND THE BIDEN CAMPAIGN TO RESPOND TO BECAUSE, JUST LIKE JOE BIDEN WAS NOT ABLE TO HAVE A GOOD ANSWER TO RESPOND TO THAT KIND OF VIOLENCE, I DON'T THINK SHE'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO AS WELL.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE CORONAVIRUS AND THE ADMINISTRATION'S RESPONSE, I THINK IT WILL PRESENT A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR VICE PRESIDENT PENCE TO TALK ABOUT THE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE, WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION DID, MAYBE WHAT COULD HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY, BUT ALSO RECOGNIZING THAT A LOT OF WHAT WAS DONE WAS DONE BY OTHER -- LEADERS OF OTHER NATIONS AND A LOT OF WHAT JOE BIDEN EVEN LAID OUT AS HIS PLAN WERE THE VERY THINGS THE ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE.

THEN IT'S ALSO GOING TO PRESENT AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT THE VACCINES AND I THINK BOTH KAMALA HARRIS AND JOE BIDEN ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR I WOULD CALL IT UNREASONABLE COMMENTS SAYING THAT I CAN TRUST SCIENCE AND SCIENTISTS BUT I CANNOT TRUST A VACCINE AND WHAT IMPACT THAT WILL HAVE ON THE PUBLIC WHEN WE ARE SO CLOSE, POTENTIALLY, TO HAVING A VACCINE THAT WE WOULD WANT EVERYONE TO BE ABLE TO GET IF THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE DOING SO.

>> WELL, KAMALA HARRIS IS NOT GOING TO ALLOW HER POSITION ON VACCINES OR ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM OR ON POTENTIAL VIOLENCE IN THE STREETS TO BE HIJACKED BY PEOPLE PUTTING WORDS INTO HER MOUTH.

I THINK SHE WILL, AS A GOOD PROSECUTOR, SHE WILL BOTH BE ABLE TO DEFEND HERSELF AND PROSECUTE THE CASE AGAINST THIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> ALL RIGHT.

NOW, LET'S SPEND A LITTLE BIT OF TIME LOOKING BACK ON THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE AND MOST SPECIFICALLY HOW WOMEN REACTED TO IT.

THERE WAS A VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE WHICH I SHARED WITH YOU ALL THAT TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT WOMEN ARE 20 OR 40 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE CUT OFF BY MEN IN CONVERSATIONS IN THEIR OFFICES, PARTICULARLY MEETINGS AND BOARD MEETINGS AND THAT SORT OF THING.

AND SO, THEY TOOK TRUMP'S CUTTING OFF, SOMETIMES 10 TIMES INSIDE OF TWO MINUTES, JOE BIDEN DURING THE DEBATE AS SICKENING AND A COMPLETE TURNOFF.

SO DO WE THINK THAT ANY UNDECIDED WOMEN OR EVEN WOMEN WHO WERE GOING TO VOTE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP WERE TURNED OFF BY HIS RAUCOUS, IMPOLITE, ON PRESIDENTIAL BEHAVIOR?

PATRICE, START WITH YOU.

>> SURE.

TRUMP SUPPORTING WOMEN?

NO, THEY WILL NOT BE TURNED BY IT.

THEY DON'T LIKE IT, MAY FIND IT DISTASTEFUL, BUT THEY WILL NOT BRING THEIR BOAT DOWN TO JUST HOW HE PERFORMED IN HIS RHETORIC AND ONE NIGHT.

I THINK THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT THE ISSUES, THE SUPREME COURT NOMINATION BEING A HUGE FACTOR IN THAT IN HEALTHCARE AROUND TRANSPARENCY AND WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO DO THERE.

INDEPENDENT WOMEN, WOMEN IN THE MIDDLE, I THINK IN WHITE WOMEN IN THE SUBURBS, PROBABLY, HE DID NOT DO HIMSELF A FAVOR ON THE DEBATE NIGHT.

I WILL JUST SAY I WAS DISAPPOINTED IN THE PRESIDENT FOR INTERRUPTING SO MANY TIMES, AND I WAS DISAPPOINTED IN JOE BIDEN FOR FALLING FOR THE PRESIDENT'S TRAPS AND TRYING TO BRING HIM IN, BUT HE DID.

YOU SAW JUST AS MUCH AFTER A WHILE AS MUCH BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.

SO WOMEN WILL BE TURNED OFF -- WILL IT CHANGE THEIR VOTE?

NO.

>> YEAH.

BUT IT WAS CLEAR TO ME WHEN I WATCHED THE DEBATE THAT THE WHOLE CHAOS WAS STARTED, LAUNCHED, TOSSED OUT THERE BY THE PRESIDENT, NOT BY BIDEN.

BIDEN LET PRESIDENT TRUMP'S STEAL A LOT OF HIS TIME.

IF I WERE IN THERE, I WOULD'VE SAID, WAIT A MINUTE, I WANT MY FULL TWO MINUTES.

YOU KNOW, THIS GUY JUST JUMPED IN FOR 30 SECONDS, GIVE ME A FULL TWO MINUTES.

MY POINT IS BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

HOW, WHEN YOU HAVE A BULLY, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEBODY WHO, QUITE FRANKLY, TO A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOK LIKE HE'S REALLY LOST IT EMOTIONALLY AND MENTALLY, HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO RESPOND?

ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO SIT BACK AND NOT SAY ANYTHING AND LET HIM STEAL ALL OF YOUR TIME, OR ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO RESPOND?

IN WHICH CASE, YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RESPOND IN KIND IF YOU TALK IN A NORMAL TONE OF VOICE, YOU WILL NOT BE HEARD.

SO IF YOU ARE ADVISING BIDEN TO DEAL WITH TRUMP, PATRICE, HOW WOULD YOU TELL HIM TO DO IT?

>> I ACTUALLY THINK BIDEN HAD SOME GOOD MOMENTS WHERE HE DID GET UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S COLLAR.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT HE STARTED TO, YOU KNOW, SAY WAIT A MINUTE, HOLD ON, LET ME CORRECT THE RECORD.

HE DID ASK FOR HIS TIME BACK IN A COUPLE OCCASIONS FROM THE MODERATOR, WHICH IS GOOD.

I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT.

SOMETIMES THE WAY TO DEFUSE A SITUATION IS ACTUALLY JUST TO BE QUIET AND LET SOMEONE TALK UNTIL THEY STOP TALKING, THEN YOU JUMP IN BECAUSE THEY GET TIRED AFTER A CERTAIN POINT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, I AM HOPEFUL THAT BOTH CAMPAIGNS HAVE GONE BACK, WATCHED THE RECORD AND WATCHED CONSERVATIVES WHO ARE TRUMP SUPPORTERS SAY, HEY, MR. PRESIDENT, WE DID NOT NEED THAT LAST NIGHT.

WHAT YOU NEED IS TO BE ON YOUR GAME INTO THE DEBATE PREP.

>> OKAY.

, GET EVERYONE IN ON THIS, STARTING WITH YOU, RINA, THEN DEBORAH AND DONNA.

HOW COULD HAVE -- HOW COULD BIDEN OR ANYBODY IN THE POSITION THAT BIDEN WAS IN HAVE HANDLED HIM OR HERSELF, WHICH OF COURSE HILLARY CLINTON, UNFORTUNATELY, DID NOT DO, MUCH TO HER CHAGRIN AND LOSS, IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE BEING COMMANDEERED BY A BULLY?

>> WHAT THIS WAS WAS NOT A DEBATE.

IT WAS NOT A DISCUSSION.

IT WAS NOTHING BUT A DISPLAY OF EGOS AND I WILL SAY LARGELY FROM THE PRESIDENT, BECAUSE, LOOK, THE REALITY IS THAT HE DOES NOT LIKE JOE BIDEN PERSONALLY, AND THAT ALREADY IS LIKE A VIOLATION OF THE GRAND TRADITION OF AN INCUMBENT, A CHALLENGER BEING SORT OF KIND TO ANOTHER ON THE POLITICAL STAGE.

THIS WAS TRULY AT ITS CORE JUST REALLY A NUISANCE.

I WILL SAY MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, I WAS ANNOYED WATCHING THAT LAST NIGHT.

I WAS ANNOYED JOE BIDEN HAD TO PUT UP WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT JUST INTERRUPTING, WAS VIOLATING THE RULES.

CHRIS WALLACE HAD TO TELL THEM YOU ARE VIOLATING THE RULES YOUR CAMPAIGN AGREED TO.E ACTED IN A MANNER IN WHICH, YOU KNOW, WE TEACH OUR PRESCHOOLERS --, PRESCHOOL AGED CHILDREN ACT DIFFERENTLY THAN THIS.

WE TELL THEM TO RESPECT RULES AND NORMS.

LET ME BE VERY CLEAR WHEN I SAY THAT A WOMAN MODERATOR WOULD'VE BEEN DEALT WITH VERY DIFFERENTLY IN THE PUBLIC -- THAN A MALE MODERATOR.

CHRIS WALLACE, NOT SAYING HE SHOULD BE FIRED FROM HIS JOB, BUT HE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO MODERATE ANYTHING AGAIN.E FEEL THAT THIS JOB.

TRULY, WHEN ANSWER YOUR EARLIER QUESTION, BUT WHAT CAN SOMEONE DOUESS WHAT, IT WOULD'VE DONE A WOMAN WOULD'VE DONE.

IF I WAS A WOMAN IN NATURE, I WOULD'VE GOT THE MICS, CALLED SECURITY AND SAID WE NEED TO RETREAT, GO AND HAVE A MOMENT.

>> HOW ABOUT A GAVEL?

>> WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT THE PRESIDENT'S PEOPLE HAD BEEN OUT THERE TALKING ABOUT HOW UNFAIRLY HE WAS TREATED BY CHRIS WALLACE.

AND I THOUGHT THAT CHRIS WALLACE DID A FAIRLY DECENT JOB IN TRYING TO REIN HIM IN AND CUT HIM OFF AND SAY, NO, YOU AGREE TO THESE RULES, STICK WITH THEM.

AS FAR AS DONALD TRUMP'S BEHAVIOR, WE KNOW HIS BEHAVIOR.

REMEMBER WE WERE TOLD IN THE LAST ELECTION, OH, HE WILL EVENTUALLY ACT PRESIDENTIAL?

HE NEVER DID.

THIS IS DONALD TRUMP.

THIS IS WHAT TO EXPECT.

I DID LIKE THE FORMAT OF THE PAST DEBATE BETTER THAN WHEN WE HAD A HERE IN ST. LOUIS AT WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY AND THE PRESIDENT GOT UP AND WALKED AROUND HILLARY AND STALKED HER AND SHE LATER SAID THE HAIRS ON THE BACK OF HER NECK WERE STANDING UP FROM HIS PREDATOR BEHAVIOR THAT HE WAS EXHIBITING TOWARDS HER.

SO I THINK A REAL BIG THING WITH DONALD TRUMP IS KEEP HIM AT THE PODIUM, GET A BIG OLD WORN, AND JUST BELOW THAT HORN TILL HE SHOUTS UP.

>> DONNA?

>> A COUPLE OF THINGS: ONE, I THINK LARGELY JOE BIDEN'S INTERRUPTIONS, AND THEY WERE FEW OF THEM, WERE REALLY JUST TRYING TO GET IN THE GAME AND SPEAK TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DIRECTLY TO CAMERA IN RESPONSE TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHO WAS JUST NONSTOP INTERRUPTING.

IF YOU HAVE A DONALD TRUMP WHO COMES IN, HAS AGREED ON RULES, AND THEN VIOLATES THOSE RULES, NO AMOUNT OF RULES SETTING, EVEN AS THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE COMMISSION HAS ANNOUNCED THAT THEY ARE PLANNING GOING FORWARD TO RESTRUCTURE THE RULES, BUT EVEN IF YOU GOT A CANDIDATE TO AGREE TO THOSE RULES, DONALD TRUMP DOES NOT FOLLOW RULES.

AND SO, I'M JUST NOT REALLY -- ONE, I'M NOT CONVINCED OF THE NECESSITY OF GOING FORWARD WITH MORE DEBATES.

I'M NOT REALLY SURE WHAT IT IS THAT WE ARE GOING TO LEARN.

I THINK WE WILL LEARN A LOT MORE, FOR EXAMPLE, IF JOE BIDEN AGREED TO A SET OF INTERVIEWS WITH ALL OF THE MAJOR NEWS OUTLETS.

I THINK WE WOULD LEARN A LOT MORE AND ABOUT THE PRESIDENT.

>> I DISAGREE, DONNA.

SORRY TO INTERRUPT.

I MUST SAY, THOUGH, I HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH WOMEN THAT STILL SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT.

THEY DO NOT REMEMBER JOE BIDEN'S WORDS AFTER ALL OF THE PROTESTS, THE BLM STUFF THAT TURNED INTO ARSON AND VIOLENCE.

LAST NIGHT, HE VERY CLEARLY SAID I DO NOT CONDONE VIOLENCE.

VIOLENCE IS WRONG.

IT'S THE WRONG ANSWER TO ALL OF US.

HE ALSO SAID I WILL NOT DEFUND THE POLICE.

AND I THINK -- >> WHICH HE HAS SAID MULTIPLE TIMES OVER AND OVER.

I JUST THINK, THOUGH, RINA, HERE'S THE PROBLEM, IS THAT THE SLICE OF WOMEN IN PARTICULAR THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHO COULD BE MOVED, I THINK LIKE I WAS, ARE TOTALLY TURNED OFF BY THAT.

WE REMEMBER EVERY EX-HUSBAND, EVERY EX-BOYFRIEND, EVERY EX-BOSS, EVERY FORMER COLLEAGUE WHO TREATED US LIKE THAT.

SO I DON'T THINK IT SERVED -- DID CERTAINLY DID NOT SERVE THE PRESIDENT WILL BUT ALSO DID NOT GIVE JOE BIDEN THE OPPORTUNITY IN AN UNFILTERED WAY TO BE ABLE TO GET ACROSS HIS MESSAGE SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD REMEMBER.

SO I'M NOT REALLY SURE THAT A FORMAT OF THE DEBATE WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS INTENT ON VIOLATING THE RULES FOR THE PURPOSE OF DESTRUCTION, FOR THE PURPOSE OF SOWING CHAOS IS GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

>> WATCHING THIS, I THOUGHT I HAD ALL OF THESE ALMOST PTSD FEELINGS ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENED IS A WOMAN TO ME OVER THE YEARS AND BEING CUT OFF AND MARGINALIZED.

IT JUST GAVE ME A REALLY YUCKY, YUCKY FEELING IN MY STOMACH.

AND I THINK IT IS GOING TO WITH WOMEN SUBURBAN VOTERS, AND THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT.

THEY WANT THOSE WOMEN SUBURBAN VOTERS.

>> ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU ALL, THE FOUR OF YOU, FOR A GREAT DISCUSSION.

TO OUR VIEWERS, PLEASE GO TO OUR WEBSITE, WHICH IS www.PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY AND FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, INSTAGRAM, AND FACEBOOK.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", PLEASE JOIN US NEXT TIME FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.