>> JUST AHEAD ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM: A QUESTION OF BROKEN PROMISES BY PRESIDENT BIDEN ON STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS, AND A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT'S AT STAKE FOR AMERICA'S STRONGEST ASSET, DEMOCRACY.

STAY WITH US.

[UPBEAT ELECTRONIC MUSIC] ♪ >> WELCOME TO BLACK ISSUES FORUM I'M DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL.

TO THE CHAGRIN OF PROGRESSIVES AND OTHERS, THIS WEEK PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN ANNOUNCED STUDENT LOAN PAYBACK WILL RESUME ON FEBRUARY 1ST.

THAT AFTERNOON SOME COLLEGE STUDENTS SAY THEY RECEIVED AN ELECTRONIC NOTICE OF PAYMENT DUE ON THEIR LOAN ALREADY.

DIDN'T TAKE LONG, DID IT?

WELL NOW WE ARE SEEING ORGANIZATIONS CALL OUT THE PRESIDENT FOR BREAKING PROMISES MADE WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR ELECTION, AND EVEN WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT ELECT.

THIS DOES NOT HELP THIS ADMINISTRATION'S POPULARITY SCORE.

SO HERE TO TALK ABOUT IT I WANT TO WELCOME LA'MESHIA WHITTINGTON OF ADVANCE CAROLINA, POLITICAL ANALYST STEVE RAO, AND DOCTOR WILMER LEON HOST OF INSIDE THE ISSUES WITH DOCTOR WILMER LEON ON SIRIUS-XM RADIO.

SO, BACK IN MARCH, JOE BIDEN TWEETED WE SHOULD FORGIVE A MINIMUM OF $10,000 PER PERSON OF FEDERAL STUDENT LOANS, AS PROPOSED BY SENATOR WARREN AND COLLEAGUES.

YOUNG PEOPLE AND OTHER STUDENT DEBT HOLDERS BORE THE BRUNT OF THE LAST CRISIS.

IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

STEVE WANT TO ASK YOU, COULD THIS STATEMENT BE INTERPRETED AS A PROMISE TO FORGIVE $10,000 IN STUDENT LOANS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW I WENT BACK AND READ THAT TWEET AND I DO THINK IT CAN BE CONSTRUED AS A PROMISE.

AND I THINK IT'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF POLITICAL LEADERS, WE SEE IT ALL THE TIME, MAKING PROMISES AND IN CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE, AND THEY CAN KEEP THOSE PROMISES.

YOU KNOW ONE ANALOGY I WOULD - I WOULD LIKEN IT TO WOULD BE WHEN PRESIDENT GEORGE HW BUSH, THE LATE PRESIDENT SAID "READ MY LIPS, NO NEW TAXES," AND THEN ENDED UP RAISING TAXES AND COST HIM POLITICAL CAPITAL, MAYBE THE PRESIDENCY, BECAUSE HE LOST SUPPORT, EVEN IN HIS OWN BASE.

AND SO YOU KNOW IN MY OPINION I JUST - I THINK THAT THIS IS A CHALLENGING TIME FOR MANY PEOPLE DURING THE PANDEMIC PARTICULARLY MINORITY COMMUNITIES.

UTILITY, RENT BILLS AND I THINK WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING TO - EVEN IF WE'RE GOING TO MAKE THEM PAY THE LOANS - MAYBE FORGIVE THE INTEREST THAT THEY HAVE TO PAY ON THE LOANS.

BUT I WILL SAY THAT THERE ARE MANY COMPETING PRIORITIES THIS PRESIDENT HAS TO DEAL WITH WHEN HE THEN WHEN HE MADE THAT PROMISE.

I MEAN RISING GAS PRICES, INFLATION, THE OMICRON VARIANT, DISRUPTION TAKING PLACE ALL AROUND THE WORLD, WHICH WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT TODAY.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT THIS PRESIDENT IS DEALING WITH SO MANY THINGS GOING ON EVERYDAY THAT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN HARD TO KEEP THESE PROMISES.

AND A CAMPAIGN IS A CAMPAIGN, BUT GOVERNING IS VERY DIFFERENT.

>> AND LIFE IS LIFE AND THINGS COME UP.

AND YOU KNOW - HE HAD TO BE ABLE TO ANTICIPATE SOME OF THESE CHALLENGES.

AND PEOPLE ARE STILL NOT GOING BACK TO WORK EVEN THOUGH SOME PEOPLE MIGHT NOT BE WORKING BECAUSE THEY'RE NO LONGER WITH US.

THERE'S STILL A WORKER SHORTAGE AND - BUT I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE LOAN FORGIVENESS.

IN L.A.

REPORTEDLY SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HIS PRESIDENCY, BIDEN HAS CANCELED 12.5 BILLION IN STUDENT LOAN DEBT FOR ABOUT 640,000 BORROWERS.

AND WE KNOW THAT THE LARGEST CHUNK OF THAT WENT TO STUDENTS WITH DISABILITIES.

AND WHEN I HEAR THE WORD DEBT CANCELLATION, WHAT I'M THINKING IS I'M GOING TO GET AN INVOICE IN THE MAIL THAT SAYS, YOU OWE A WHOLE LOT LESS THAN WHAT YOU USED TO OWE.

BUT THAT'S NOT EXACTLY HOW IT WORKS.

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THESE PROMISES AND BROKEN PROMISES AND THESE LATER CLAIMS?

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

SO ONE OF THE PROMISES MADE ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS THE CANCELLATION OF STUDENT DEBT.

BUT AS YOU ALREADY MENTIONED THE DEVIL'S IN THE DETAIL, THE DEVIL'S IN THE DETAILS.

AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT OUR ASSUMPTION IS THAT PEOPLE - OUR HOPE WAS THAT STUDENT LOAN CANCELLATION WOULD BE FOR ALL 45 MILLION STUDENT LOAN BORROWERS, COMPLETELY ACROSS THE BOARD.

BUT WHEN THE POLICY IS NOT SPECIFIC, WHAT OUR ASK IS NOT SPECIFIC, THEN IT CAN BE FLEXIBLE.

WE DIDN'T SAY THAT.

IT WASN'T STATED IN THE CAMPAIGN, RIGHT?

THAT 45 MILLION STUDENT LOAN BORROWERS WOULD HAVE THEIR DEBT COMPLETELY ERASED.

IT JUST SAID STUDENT LOAN CANCELLATION.

SO TECHNICALLY, THE PROMISE HAS BEEN KEPT WITH THAT 12 BILLION DOLLAR STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS, IN ADDITION TO THE 110 BILLION DOLLARS OF STUDENT LOAN CANCELLATION THROUGH THE DEFERRED PAYMENTS DURING COVID-19.

AS YOU MENTIONED MOST OF THE BORROWERS THAT RECEIVED CANCELLATION WERE STUDENTS WITH PERMANENT DISABILITY, PUBLIC SERVANTS, AND EVEN BORROWERS WHO WERE MISLED BY THEIR COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY.

BUT AGAIN THE DEVIL'S IN THE DETAILS.

BUT IT DE-MYSTIFIESD THE PROCESS AND OUR TRUST AS A PEOPLE AND CANDIDATES, WHEN IT'S JUST SIMPLY NOT SAID.

WE ALL HOPED WOULD BE CANCELLATION FOR EVERYONE.

>> UNDERSTOOD.

DOCTOR LEON, HOW CONTROVERSIAL DO YOU THINK IT IS, OR DID YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON WHAT L.A. SAID?

>> WELL, CANCELLATION MEANS CANCELLATION.

RELIEF MEANS RELIEF.

JOE BIDEN WAS, YOU KNOW, IN IN MOST INSTANCES VOTERS DON'T TAKE THE TIME TO PARSE THE PARTICULAR DETAILS.

DID YOU MEAN RELIEF, DID YOU MEAN CANCELLATION?

HE TOLD US THAT HE WAS GOING TO GIVE US FREE JUNIOR COLLEGE.

HE TOLD US WE WERE GOING TO GET 70 BILLION DOLLARS FOR HBCUs.

HE TOLD US WE WERE GOING TO GET DENTAL CARE AND HEARING AIDS IN MEDICARE - OR MEDICAID.

AND THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

JOE BIDEN HAS AN HONESTY PROBLEM AT THE END OF THE DAY JOE BIDEN HAS AN HONESTY PROBLEM.

WE'VE GOT ABOUT 43.2 MILLION PEOPLE CARRYING THIS DEBT.

IT'S ABOUT I THINK 1.5 TRILLION DOLLARS IS THE AMOUNT OF THE FEDERAL STUDENT LOAN PORTFOLIO.

AND IF THE FED IN THIS COUNTRY CAN PALM A 120 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH.

INTO THE BANKS, SO THAT THE ELITE IN THIS COUNTRY CAN DO WELL THEN WHY CAN'T JOE BIDEN HELP STUDENT DEBT.

I THINK THE AVERAGE AMOUNT IS AROUND $40,000 A PERSON.

AND WHEN WE LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE IN TERMS OF THIS ECONOMY FOR THE WORKING CLASS AND FOR MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT $40,000 DEBT RELIEF WOULD GO IN AWFUL LONG WAY IN - IN STIMULATING THIS ECONOMY.

SO THEY WANT TO STIMULATE IT ON THE ELITE END, AND THEY WANT TO LEAVE THE WORKING CLASS AND THE MIDDLE CLASS HOLDING THE BAG ON THE BACK END.

THEY JUST PASSED A 780 BILLION DOLLAR NATIONAL DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION ACT.

DIDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM DOING THAT.

EVERYBODY UNDERSTOOD VERY CLEARLY WHAT JOE BIDEN MEANT WITH ALL OF THAT.

BUT SOMEHOW WE - JOE BIDEN CAN'T FIGURE OUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RELIEF VERSUS CANCELLATION.

MAYBE HE NEEDS TO GO BACK AND TAKE IT IN ENGLISH CLASS, I DON'T KNOW.

>> WELL, I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REDUCING STUDENT LOAN DEBT AND REDUCING THE COST OF COLLEGE ALTOGETHER, YOU KNOW?

THAT TO ME IS A DIFFERENT ISSUE BECAUSE I PAID BACK MY STUDENT LOAN DEBTS.

I WOULD LIKE SOME FORGIVENESS AS WELL.

A PROMISE THAT JOE BIDEN MET AND KEPT WAS A COMMITMENT TO A DEMOCRACY SUMMIT, THE 1ST OF 2 WHICH HE HELD JUST LAST WEEK.

BUT HIS SUMMIT HAS FACED SOME CRITICISM IN LIGHT OF ALL THAT'S HAPPENED IN OUR NATION.

SO STEVE WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE PURPOSE OF THIS SUMMIT AND DID HE ACCOMPLISH IT?

>> I THINK THE PURPOSE OF THIS SUMMIT WHICH HE TALKED ABOUT EVEN DURING THE CAMPAIGN WHEN HE TOOK THE OATH OF OFFICE TO BECOME OUR PRESIDENT, WAS TO BRING THE WORLD TOGETHER TO FIGHT AGAINST AUTHORITARIANISM DICTATORSHIPS AND TO PROMOTE DEMOCRACY ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THAT HAS REALLY BEEN WHAT I CALL THE BIDEN DOCTRINE.

AND WE'RE SEEING A TREMENDOUS DECAY AND DISRUPTION OF DEMOCRACY SINCE EVEN HE COMMITTED TO THIS AS OUR PRESIDENT.

AND I, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE - BEFORE I MAKE MY NEXT POINT JUST LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND THE WORLD.

WE HAVE A COUP IN SUDAN, WE HAVE PROTESTS IN CUBA, CURB KILLING OF THE INTERNET, WE HAD THE DESTRUCTION OF DEMOCRACY IN TUNISIA, 38 MILLION AFGHANISTAN'S - IN AFGHANISTAN WHERE DEMOCRACY HAS BEEN STRIPPED AWAY, VENEZUEL.A.

- ANY COUNTRY WHERE WE'VE HAD ELECTED LEADERS MANY TIMES AND DEMOCRACY DOES NOT TAKE PLACE.

I THINK THE OBJECTIVE IS STILL GOOD.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HE WANTS TO DO, BRING US TOGETHER TO FIGHT ANTI-CORRUPTION, INDEPENDENT MEDIA WITH INVESTING 424 MILLION FOCUSING ON ADDRESSING TECHNOLOGY AND BIG TECH AND HOW WE CAN FOCUS ON SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES AND HOW THEY'RE USING THEIR PLATFORMS TO INFILTRATE ELECTIONS.

BUT I'LL END WITH THIS.

ALL OF THIS - HERE'S THE HERE'S THE HYPOCRISY.

WHILE THIS PRESIDENT IS ASKING FOR US TO PROMOTE DEMOCRACY, WE'RE HAVING REAL PROBLEMS OF DEMOCRACY AND OUR OWN DECAY IN AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, WITH VOTING RIGHTS WHICH WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT, WE CAN'T GET VOTING RIGHTS LEGISLATION THROUGH.

WE HAVE STATES IN THE UNITED STATES THAT ARE THAT ARE WORKING TO MAKE SURE THEY CAN CHANGE THE OUTCOMES OF ELECTIONS.

THIS IS HAPPENING IN ARIZONA WHERE THEY'RE TAKING AWAY POWERS FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE.

OR IN GEORGIA, MOVING POWERS TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IN ARIZONA.

THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.

AND SO WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE GETTING IT RIGHT HERE AT HOME IN AMERICA, IF WE'RE GOING TO SELL THAT DEMOCRACY WORKS FOR NATIONS AROUND THE WORLD.

>> WELL, YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND HOW IT WORKS IN OTHER NATIONS.

DOCTOR WILMER LEON, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON HOW AMERICA IS SUPPORTING DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE NATION AND SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHAT WAS PROBLEMATIC ABOUT THIS DEMOCRACY SUMMIT?

>> A COUPLE OF THINGS, IN TERMS OF - I'LL START WITH YOUR LAST QUESTION.

FIRST A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT WERE PROBLEMATIC WITH THE DEMOCRACY SUMMIT WAS YOU NOT ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AT THE LIST OF PEOPLE THAT WERE INVITED, YOU HAD TO LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T.

ISRAEL WAS AT THE SUMMIT.

AND I THINK IF YOU TALK TO THE PALESTINIANS, I DON'T THINK ISRAEL IS - I DON'T THINK ZIONIST STATE OF ISRAEL IS A DEMOCRACY.

YOU HAD JUAN GUAIDO INVITED.

JUAN GUAIDO WAS A MAN WITH IS A PRESIDENT WITHOUT A COUNTRY, BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES SELECTED JUAN GUAIDO, EVEN THOUGH THE PEOPLE OF VENEZUEL.A.

ELECTED NICOLAS MADURO IN A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION.

DEMOCRACY - NOT ONLY IS IT A FUNCTIONING PROCESS, THERE ARE ALSO CULTURAL COMPONENTS THAT MUST BE FACTORED INTO AN ASSESSMENT OF DEMOCRACY.

SO WHEN WE LOOK AT CHINA FOR EXAMPLE - WELL, LET ME LET ME SAY THIS.

THE BUZZ WORDS HAVE CHANGED.

AFTER THE COLD WAR, IT WAS DEMOCRACY VERSUS COMMUNISM.

EVERYBODY WAS WAS LOOKING FOR COMMUNISTS UNDER EVERY ROCK.

NOW THE BUZZWORD IS AUTHORITARIAN.

AND SO WE HAVE TO FIGHT AUTHORITARIANISM.

SO YOU GO TO CHINA AND EVERYBODY WANTS TO SAY THAT PRESIDENT XI JINPING OF CHINA IS AN AUTHORITARIAN.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE POLLING, THE CHINESE PEOPLE, 96% OF PEOPLE IN CHINA, LIKE THEIR GOVERNMENT.

VLADIMIR PUTIN IS AN AUTHORITARIAN, 86% OF PEOPLE IN RUSSIA LIKE THEIR GOVERNMENT.

>> BASED ON WHICH STATISTICS?

BASED ON WHAT POLLS DO THE PEOPLE OF RUSSIA...?

>> PEW RESEARCH.

HARVARD STUDIES.

PRINCETON HAS DONE STUDIES.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF STUDIES OUT THERE.

NOT, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT STUDIES FROM WITHIN THE COUNTRY, I'M TALKING ABOUT INDEPENDENT STUDIES PERFORMED OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTRY OVER THE SPAN OF THE LAST 10 YEARS.

>> THAT'S KEY.

>> AL-ASSAD IN SYRIA WAS DEEMED TO BE AN AUTHORITARIAN.

HE WON THE ELECTION ABOUT 6 MONTHS AGO WITH 86% OF THE VOTE.

IT'S NOT THAT THESE AREN'T DEMOCRACIES, IT'S THAT THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T LIKE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING ELECTED.

WHY WASN'T A REPRESENTATIVE FROM BOLIVIA THERE?

WHY WASN'T A REPRESENTATIVE FROM NICARAGUA THERE?

WHY WASN'T A REPRESENTATIVE FROM EL SALVADOR ECUADOR?

BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES - BECAUSE THERE ARE - THE POLITICS ARE CHANGING IN THESE COUNTRIES, THEY ARE NOW RESISTING AMERICAN NEO-LIBERAL POLICIES THAT WERE STARTED IN NORTH AND NORTHERN - IN SOUTH AND CENTRAL AMERICA IN THE 70'S, THOSE POLICIES HAVE FAILED.

AND THE PEOPLE IN THOSE COUNTRIES ARE PUSHING BACK.

AND THE IMPERIALGLOBAL HEGEMON CALLED THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T LIKE THAT ANYMORE.

>> WELL, L.A. LET ME GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHAT DOCTOR LEON SAID, BUT ALSO ABOUT OUR SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRACY AND HOW WE ARE WEARING DEMOCRACY AND SHOWING DEMOCRACY IN OUR OWN NATION.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, AS WITH PREVIOUS PREVIOUSLY STATED, THE THE SUMMIT WAS A GLOBAL REPOSITIONING OF AMERICA'S COMMITMENT TO DEMOCRACY IN JUSTAPOSITION TO TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION.

IT WAS ALSO TO CALL OUR ALLIES TO DO THE SAME, RIGHT?

BUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ELEMENTS OF WHAT COMPOSES A GOOD DEMOCRACY, THAT INCLUDES HUMAN RIGHTS, CONSTITUTIONAL RULE, AND ECONOMIC GROWTH.

WHICH AMERICA IS STRUGGLING WITH ALL THE ABOVE.

BUT SO ARE OTHER NATIONS IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

AND IT'S BEEN MADE WORSE, EXACERBATED, BY COVID-19.

SO WE SEE DEEPER PROPERTY, DEEPER CONFLICT, DEEPER TERRORISM.

WE SAW THAT IN OUR OWN COUNTRY, DOMESTIC TERRORISM IN JANUARY, THE TOP OF THIS YEAR, AND INSTABILITY OVERALL.

SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WHAT WE MUST DO, IT MUST BE QUICK AND DECISIVE ACTION.

WE MUST REASSESS OUR GLOBAL ALLIES.

WE HAVE - THAT HAVE CHOSEN PROFITEER OFF THE EXPLOITATION OF THEIR PEOPLE UNDER THE GUISE OF DEMOCRACY IS THAT TRULY DEMOCRACY?

WHEN WE ASSESS THAT, WE'VE THEN MUST DIVEST OUR FUNDS, WE NEED TO STOP INVESTING IN GLOBAL MILITARIUSM THAT SUPPORTS THOSE COUNTRIES THAT ARE NOT ACTUALLY UPHOLDING OUR VISION AND VALUES OF DEMOCRACY.

BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT REASSESSMENT WE ALSO HAVE TO INVOKE CONFIDENCE IN OUR OWN NATION.

CHARITY STARTS AT HOME.

SO WE TALK ABOUT THE 245 NEW LAWS IN 45 STATES THAT WILL MAKE IT HARDER FOR 55 MILLION PEOPLE TO VOTE IN 2022, THAT IS DEMOCRACY BEING IMPACTED FOR OUR MOST MARGINALIZED, BUT FOR ALL THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA.

IT HAS TO START AT HOME AND WE HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN TO TACKLE WHAT HAS BEEN GENERATIONS OF ISSUES.

>> WELL I THINK WE DEFINITELY ADDRESSED THE ISSUE OF HOW WE SHOW UP AROUND THE WORLD WITH REGARD TO DEMOCRACY.

AND WHAT YOU'RE SHARING, IT SOUNDS LIKE, IS THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DO HAVE A ROLE AND HAVE SOME POWER IN HOW WE SHOW UP, IN TERMS OF WHAT WE INVEST IN AND WHAT WE ASKED FOR FROM OUR REPRESENTATIVES.

STEVE, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ARE SOME OF THE STRENGTHS THAT THAT PEOPLE CAN USE?

WHAT CAN CITIZENS DO BEYOND THAT OR WHAT ARE THEY NOT DOING TO HELP MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE DEMOCRACY HERE IN AMERICA AND ALSO WORLDWIDE?

>> THE FIRST THING WE HAVE TO DO TO - AND YOU KNOW, I LOVE PRESIDENT ZELENSKY'S QUOTE FROM THE UKRAINE, HE SAYS DEMOCRACY IS NOT A GIVEN, WE MUST FIGHT FOR IT.

AND WE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA MUST FIGHT TO KEEP OUR INSTITUTIONS OF DEMOCRACY STRONG, BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT IS THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

ALSO TO HONOR THE OUTCOME OF OUR ELECTIONS.

AND WE'VE SEEN THIS YEAR INSURRECTION ON OUR CAPITAL, PEOPLE STORMING THE CAPITOL, LOOKED LIKE A COUP, IT WAS VERY SCARY, WE NEVER THOUGHT WE'D SEE THAT IN AMERICA.

AND IT'S TIME TO GET A VOTING RIGHTS LEGISLATION PASSED TO COME TOGETHER IN A BIPARTISAN MANNER.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, END THE FILIBUSTER.

DO IT NOW, GET THE BUILD BACK BETTER AND THE STIMULUS PACKAGES CONTINUING TO PASS.

BUT ALSO I WOULD SAY WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NEED TO REALIZE THAT THERE IS - THAT THERE IS AN EFFORT TODAY TO MAKE SURE THAT STATES CAN CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF ELECTIONS.

SO WE'RE HEADED IN A SCENARIO, IF WE DON'T - SPEAKING TO REPRESENTATIVE DEBORAH ROSS JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, AND I WAS ASKING HER ABOUT, THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH FOCUS AS WE FOCUS ON THE RIGHTS OF VOTERS AND YOU KNOW ABSENTEE BALLOTS AND EARLY VOTING, WILL THERE BE FEDERAL LAWS THAT WOULD PREVENT STATES FROM CHANGING THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION?

BECAUSE, LET'S SAY IN THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, I DON'T THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE UNDERSTAND IS THAT IF LET'S SAY A STATE LIKE NORTH CAROLINA WENT FOR ONE PERSON, IF THE REPUBLICANS HAD LAWS THAT WOULD CHANGE THE ELECTORS OR IF THEY MOVE - THEY MOVE THE POWER, IT'S NOT CONTROLED BY THE SECRETARY OF STATE, THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS COULD BE OVERTURNED.

>> RIGHT WELL, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, KIND OF LEADS US TO ANOTHER KIND OF CONVERSATION WITH REGARD TO VOTING RIGHTS.

IT SEEMS AS THOUGH THAT WE TALK ABOUT VOTING RIGHTS JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER WEEK.

BUT NOTHING'S MORE IMPORTANT, AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS SAYING.

ALTHOUGH RATHER CONVENIENTLY, AS SIGNS FOR A VOTE ON HIS BUILD BACK BETTER PLAN INDICATE THAT IT WILL NOT BE HAPPENING ANYTIME SOON.

BUT ON LEGISLATION TO SECURE VOTING RIGHTS IS STALLED, AS IT IS STALLED, AS IT CONTINUES TO HINGE ON 2 SENATORS, JOE MANCHIN OF WEST VIRGINIA AND KRYSTEN SINEMA OF ARIZONA.

THIS WEEK'S SINEMA'S SPOKESPERSON SAID IN A STATEMENT TO POLITICO "SENATOR SINEMA HAS ASKED THOSE WHO WANT TO WEAKEN OR ELIMINATE THE FILIBUSTER TO PASS VOTING RIGHTS LEGISLATION, WHICH SHE SUPPORTS.

IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR OUR COUNTRY TO DO SO."

AND THAT SINEMA "CONTINUES TO SUPPORT THE SENATE'S 60 VOTE THRESHOLD TO PROTECT THE COUNTRY FROM REPEATED RADICAL REVERSALS IN FEDERAL POLICY WHICH WOULD CEMENT UNCERTAINTY, DEEPEN DIVISIONS, AND FURTHER ERODE AMERICANS CONFIDENCE IN OUR GOVERNMENT."

SO JUST QUICKLY STEVE AT THIS POINT WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS FOR GETTING SOME MOVEMENT ON VOTING RIGHTS LEGISLATION?

>> WELL, I LIKE THIS IDEA OF YOU KNOW IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS, ENDING THE FILIBUSTER, SO YOU WOULDN'T NEED A 60 MAJORITY AND THEY JUST GET A VOTING RIGHTS BILL THAT EVERYONE CAN AGREE WITH, SO WE CAN YOU KNOW CURTAIL LOT OF THE EFFORTS THAT ARE GOING.

BECAUSE IF WE DON'T HAVE A CONSISTENT FEDERAL LAW, YOU'RE GOING TO START SEEING LEGISLATURES DICTATING HOW THINGS HAPPENED IN THEIR STATES, WHICH COULD AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF ELECTIONS AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL, YOU KNOW AT THE STATE LEVEL.

SO I DO THINK THAT WE NEED TO DO THAT WHILE WE'RE ALSO TRYING TO GET SUPPORT FOR THE BUILD BACK BETTER PROGRAM.

THIS IS THE CHALLENGE.

YOU KNOW CAN WE GET SENATOR MANCHIN TO COME IN THERE TO AGREE WITH SENATOR SINEMA ON THAT, AND THEN GET THIS THING THROUGH.

BUT I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A LOT OF BRIDGE BUILDING, COALITION BUILDING.

>> THEY'VE BEEN - THEY'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS BRIDGE FOR MONTHS NOW AND I GOT TO WONDER.

DOCTOR LEON, BOTH KIRSTEN SINEMA AND JOE MANCHIN SAY THAT THEY SUPPORT BOTH THE FREEDOM TO VOTE ACT AND THE JOHN LEWIS VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

HOW VALID DO YOU THINK IS THERE HESITATION ABOUT HOW IT GETS DONE?

>> I THINK THAT THAT'S REALLY JUST A COVER.

JOE MANCHIN IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECT IS WAS THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE WEST VIRGINIA CHAPTER OF ALEC.

AND ALEC IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WRITING A LOT OF THE STATE - ANTI-VOTING STATE LEGISLATION.

SO I HONESTLY THINK THAT SINEMA AND MANCHIN ARE REALLY BEING USED AS STRAW PEOPLE OR STALKING HORSES.

JOE BIDEN DOESN'T SUPPORT IT.

JOE BIDEN NEVER HAS.

>> WHEN YOU SAY HE DOESN'T SUPPORT IT, EXCUSE ME, YOU MEAN HE DOESN'T SUPPORT VOTING RIGHTS?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW, JOE BIDEN SUPPORTS VOTING RIGHTS OR NOT.

BUT I KNOW THE CURRENT BILLS THAT ARE - WE'LL JUST STICK - WE'LL JUST KEEP WITH THE - WITH THE JOHN LEWIS BILL.

BECAUSE WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME JOE BIDEN USED THE BULLY PULPIT TO SUPPORT IT?

I KNOW THAT ON MONDAY OR TUESDAY HE DID A VIDEO FROM THE OVAL OFFICE SUPPORTING SOME GUN LEGISLATION.

I HAVEN'T SEEN JOE BIDEN STAND IN THE ROSE GARDEN OR SIT THERE BEHIND THE DESK IN THE OVAL OFFICE LOOK IN THE CAMERA SCREEN POINT HIS FINGER AT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAY, LOOK ITS 2021 ENOUGH OF THIS DEMOCRACY, STARTS AT HOME.

EVERY PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

VOTING FRAUD IN THIS COUNTRY IS A FARCE, IS A LIE, IS A FRAUD.

AND WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING IN THIS COUNTRY TO BE SURE THAT EVERY PERSON HAS A RIGHT TO VOTE.

AND THAT ONCE THAT VOTE IS CAST, THE VOTE IS COUNTED.

I DON'T HEAR JOE BIDEN SAYING THIS.

>> SO, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, IT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS IF THAT STRENGTH CAME FROM THE TOP.

THERE MIGHT BE SOME MOVEMENT.

>> ABSOLUTELY!

LYNDON JOHNSON GOT THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL THROUGH.

LYNDON JOHNSON PICKED UP THE PHONE AND THREATENED - THREATENED!

- SOME OF HIS LIFELONG FRIENDS.

TOLD THEM IF YOU DON'T BACK ME ON THIS, I'M KICKING YOUR YOU-KNOW-WHAT.

THIS WHOLE - JOE BIDEN DOESN'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SENATE ISN'T OPERATING ANYMORE THAN WE USED TO WHEN HE WAS THERE.

HE NEEDS TO GET HIP TO WAS HAPPENING IN THE IN THE CURRENT TIMES AND HE NEEDS TO GO GANGSTER ON SOME FOLKS, IF HE'S SERIOUS ABOUT GETTING ANYTHING DONE.

>> BUT YEAH, I'VE DEFINITELY HEARD THAT STRATEGY.

AND ANOTHER, LET ME BRING YOU IN L.A., IS TO INDEED DO SOMETHING TO CHANGE THE POLICIES OUT HERE.

SO MOST RECENTLY A CHANGE WAS MADE TO ACCOMMODATE THE THE RAISING OF THE DEBT CEILING.

SO WHY AREN'T DEMS CALLING ON THAT STRATEGY?

WHY ISN'T JOE BIDEN, COMING GANGSTER?

I MEAN WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON BOTH OF THOSE STRATEGIES?

>> I HAVE TO ECHO THE DOCTOR.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A STRONGER ARM.

AND AT THE TOP OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION - TOP OF THE YEAR OUR REQUEST AS ADVOCATES, COMMUNITIES, LAWYERS, THE LIKE, WAS TO ACTUALLY COMPLETELY GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ELEMENTS OF DEMOCRACY AND WHAT IS GOOD DEMOCRACY, WELL GOOD DEMOCRACY IS A SIMPLE MAJORITY VOTE.

THE MAJORITY WINS, BUT IT IS NOT THE DEMOCRACY WHEN YOU HAVE A FILIBUSTER WHICH CAN STOP A SIMPLE MAJORITY VOTE.

IT'S LITERALLY A VOTE TO DETERMINE IF ELECTED OFFICIALS CAN VOTE.

WHEN THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

WE VOTED YOU IN TO VOTE.

SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT AS YOU MENTIONED THE DEBT CEILING, THE ECONOMIC GROWTH PIECE, THE FILIBUSTER WAS TEMPORARILY DISALLOWED TO BE USED SO THAT A VOTE COULD GO FORWARD.

TO SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK'S POINT THAT SAME METHOD COULD BE USED NOW TO PRIORITIZE DEMOCRACY FOR THE MILLIONS OF FOLKS WHO TURNED OUT TO VOTE FOR THE PROMISE OF - GUESS WHAT - A FAIR DEMOCRACY.

A PROMISE THAT VOTER SUPPRESSION WOULDN'T CONTINUE TO PLAGUE OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND RACIAL GERRYMANDERING WHICH HAS BEEN A STAPLE SINCE THE INCEPTION OF THIS COUNTRY, RIGHT, WOULD THEN BE REGULATED BY STATES WHO HAVEN'T SHOWN THAT THEY'RE GOOD STEWARDS OF RACIAL FAIRNESS AND EQUITY.

AND THAT WAS THE PROMISE THAT, AGAIN, HASN'T BEEN UPHELD.

AND IT'S A SIMPLE AS - EITHER GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER OR DO IT TEMPORARILY IN THIS MOMENT, SO WE CAN MOVE FORWARD WITH PROTECTING 55 MILLION PLUS VOTERS.

>> WELL, HOW ABOUT THAT ARGUMENT THOUGH THAT, WELL, IF WE CHANGE THE RULES NOW ALL WE'RE GOING TO DO IS CREATE A BACK AND FORTH.

THINGS WILL CHANGE FOR NOW, THEY'LL CHANGE THE RULES AGAIN.

MY - MY CONCERN IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE CRITICAL NATURE OF THE CURRENT MOMENT AND DEMOCRACY AND VOTING IF SOMETHING'S NOT DONE RIGHT NOW, WE'VE GOT DECADES TO LIVE WITH THE INDECISION.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> AND THERE'S CURRENTLY A NORTH CAROLINA COURT ORDER THAT HAS STAYED FILING FOR THE NORTH CAROLINA SENATE, THE HOUSE.

SO CURRENTLY CANDIDATES CAN'T EVEN FILE BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL GERRYMANDERING THAT NORTH CAROLINA HAS ALREADY FACED.

AND THESE ARE RECENTLY DRAWN MAPS, THEY HAVE JUST BEEN DRAWN THIS YEAR WHICH MEANS WE'RE ABOUT TO GO INTO RACIAL AND PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING FOR MANY YEARS, BUT DEFINITELY THE NEXT 10 YEARS BECAUSE IT WILL BE LITIGATION AFTER LITIGATION TO PROVE AGAIN THAT WE'VE BEEN RACIALLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST, AND GERRYMANDERING PARTISAN UNFAIRNESS.

IT'S ALREADY BEGUN IT'S ALREADY DELAYING OUR ELECTIONS PRESENTLY, 2021, BEFORE WE EVEN GET TO 2022.

WE MUST ACT.

>> WELL, THE PEOPLE NEED TO BE PAYING ATTENTION.

AND I APPRECIATE ALL 3 OF YOU RAISING THE ISSUES AND KIND OF LAYING THINGS OUT FOR US, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU HAPPY HOLIDAYS, EVERYONE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I WANT TO THANK STEVE RAO, L.A. WHITTINGTON, AND DOCTOR WILMER LEON FOR JOINING US TODAY.

WE INVITE YOU TO ENGAGE WITH US ON TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM USING THE HASHTAG #BlackIssuesForum YOU CAN ALSO FIND OUR FULL EPISODES ON pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum LISTEN AT ANY TIME ON APPLE iTUNES, SPOTIFY, OR GOOGLE PODCASTS.

FOR BLACK ISSUES FORUM I'M DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

♪ >> QUALITY PUBLIC TELEVISION IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS OF VIEWERS LIKE YOU, WHO INVITE YOU TO JOIN THEM IN SUPPORTING PBS NC.