>>> HEALING THE DIVIDE BETWEEN THE POLICE AND THE COMMUNITY.

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>>> THIS IS A COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD SPECIAL.

I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

THIS WEEK WE TAKE A STEP BACK AND LOOK AT THE WIDE DIVIDE BETWEEN POLICE AND THE COMMUNITY, SOMETHING THAT'S COME INTO SHARP FOCUS OVER THE PAST YEAR OR SO.

OUR GUESTS ARE THE REVEREND JEFFEREY P. KEE, A COLUMBUS NATIVE AND PASTOR OF NEW FAITH BAPTIST CHURCH.

OFFICER ANGEL TUCKER, A NATIVE OF TOLEDO, NOW WITH THE OREGON, OHIO POLICE DEPARTMENT AND KIM JACOBS, FORMER COLUMBUS POLICE CHIEF.

WE BEGIN WITH A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE STATE OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN COLUMBUS POLICE AND ITS RESIDENTS.

>> WE NEED TO BE LOOKING RIGHT HERE AT THIS POLICE DEPARTMENT RIGHT HERE, BECAUSE IT HAS A LONG HISTORY OF TREATING PEOPLE INHUMANE, AND SOMETHING WE SEE TOO OFTEN, THE ABUSIVE HAND OF POLICE IN TRYING TO HAVE A MORE EQUITABLE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

>> ARE YOU WITH THE DIVISION OF POLICE FOR A VERY LONG TIME, YOU'VE LED THE DIVISION FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE DIVIDE RIGHT NOW?

>> THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE DO AGREE ON.

BAD POLICING, THE GOOD COPS DON'T WANT AROUND.

BUT I DO BELIEVE THERE IS A DIVIDE.

WE'VE DONE A LOT IN MY COMMUNITY TO TRY TO REDUCE THAT.

DIALOG, IN MY OPINION IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS.

WE SIT DOWN TOGETHER AND DISCUSS OUR POINT OF VIEW AND PERSPECTIVES AND THEN TRY TO COME UP WITH SOME UNDERSTANDING OF EACH OTHER, KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE CONCERNS, FEARS, DISTRUST, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

MORE THAN 350 OFFICERS HAVE GONE TO WASHINGTON, D.C. TO LOOK AT THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN MUSEUM TO STUDY THE PAST, VERY FRAUGHT RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN OUR COMMUNITIES AND POLICE.

>> YOU'RE AN OFFICER, AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE DIVIDE?

IS IT DEEPER THAN IT WAS WHEN YOU STARTED ON THE JOB?

>> IT STARTED MUCH EARLIER THAN MY EXPERIENCE AS A POLICE OFFICER.

I GREW UP IN THE INNER CITY AND HAD THIS CALL THAT I WANTED TO SERVE EARLY.

YOU DIDN'T DO THAT WHERE I WAS IN.

YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU WANTED TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY, YOU WANTED TO BE A FIRST RESPONDER.

I REMEMBER AS A TEENAGER I WOULD CONSTANTLY GET HARASSED BY THE POLICE.

ONE TIME THEY MADE ME PULL MY PANTS DOWN IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY.

IT WAS AN EMBARRASSING SITUATION.

AND IT INFLUENCED MY CALL TO SERVE.

THERE WERE THINGS I ENCOUNTERED ALONG THE WAY.

THE DIVIDE, TO ME, I HAVEN'T SEEN THE DIVIDE, AS FAR AS BRINGING US TOGETHER, I HAVEN'T SEEN A CLOSE OF THAT GAP FROM THE TIME I WAS A YOUTH UP UNTIL THE YEARS THAT I'VE CURRENTLY BEEN A POLICE OFFICER.

AND IF I CAN PIGGYBACK, I THINK THE CHIEF IS CORRECT ON WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS AS LAW ENFORCEMENT, WHAT WE SHOULD DO, WHEN I SUGGESTED WHEN FT.

HOOD HAPPENED.

WE NEED TO TAKE OWNERSHIP AND ACCOUNTABILITY FOR OUR PART OF THIS.

WE'VE NEVER REALLY TOLD THE COMMUNITY, HEY, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THAT THE THINGS ARE WRONG, AND WE REALLY DO WANT TO TAKE OWNERSHIP OF IT, AND ON TOP OF TAKING OWNERSHIP, I THINK WE SHOULD INVITE THE COMMUNITY TO HELP US, NOT ONLY TAKE OWNERSHIP OF IT, BUT CORRECT IT.

A LOT OF TIMES THE PUBLIC HAS NO CLUE INTO HOW WE ARE TRAINED.

I TEACH AT THE POLICE ACADEMY.

SO INITIALLY, I DID CULTURE THAT, WE TEACH THEM THE CULTURE OF THE POLICE, WHY WE DO SOME OF THE THINGS WE DO.

TRAINED IN TACTICAL COMMUNICATION WHERE WE HAVE COMMUNITY MEMBERS AND FIRST RESPONDERS IN THE TRAINING TOGETHER.

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW, IF OUR COMMUNITY APPROVES OF OUR TRAINING, IT'S MOST LIKELY GOOD.

IF THEY DON'T AGREE, WE'RE WASTING MONEY.

>> HE USED PRETTY STRONG LANGUAGE THERE, THE TERM PLANTATION.

I WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION, BUT HAS THE POLICE ESTABLISHMENT, THE COLUMBUS POLICE IN PARTICULAR, BEEN TOO SLOW IN YOUR OPINION?

>> I DON'T THINK SO, NO.

UNDER SAFETY DIRECTOR, MR. BROWN, WE'VE MADE A LOT OF STRIDES IN MY OPINION TO ESTABLISH CORE VALUES, MUTUAL RESPECT FOR ALL OF OUR COMMUNITY.

WE EMPHASIZE RECRUITING AND ADDING TO OUR DIVERSITY AND LIAISONS.

WE DID DIALOGS.

WE DID MEETINGS WITH THE COMMUNITY.

WE WENT TO THEIR MEETINGS AND TALKED TO THEM.

WE'VE CHANGED A LOT OF DIFFERENT PRACTICES.

THERE HAS BEEN A HUGE EMPHASIS ON TRYING TO IMPROVE COMMUNITY RELATIONS AND MAKE SURE THAT THINGS ARE DONE EQUITABLY.

IN THOSE CASES WHERE WE FOUND THAT WE NEEDED TO IMPROVE OUR TRAINING, WE TRIED TO DO THAT AS WELL.

WE'VE BEEN ACCREDITED FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

THEY'VE ACQUIRED ETHICS TRAINING AND WE'VE INCREASED THE FREQUENCY IN WHICH THAT WAS DONE.

WE DID IT MORE FREQUENTLY.

THERE HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT CHANGES TO ADDRESS THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.

>> THE CAUSES OF THE DIVIDE.

ONE THING THAT'S BEEN MENTIONED OFTEN IS THAT THERE IS OVERPOLICING IN NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO LIVE THERE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE'S A LOT OF CRIME IN THOSE COMMUNITIES AND PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS WANT POLICE TO PROTECT THEM.

AND AFRICAN-AMERICANS HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF CRIME, PERPETRATORS OF CRIME.

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM IN YOUR MIND OF POLICING IN NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE OF COLOR LIVE?

>> CERTAINLY, WE NEVER REALLY WANT CRIME IN A COMMUNITY, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE PROFILES AND A CITIZEN IN THE PARTICULAR COMMUNITY, YOU HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED TO BE A PROBLEM BECAUSE OF SYSTEMIC RACISM THAT IS IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, AND I RESPECT WHAT CHIEF JACOBS EXPRESSED, BUT THE REALITY IS, THERE ARE MANY LAWSUITS, NOT MANY, BUT LAWSUITS ON HER WATCH, A LAWSUIT WITH THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN INVOLVED WHO EXPRESSED THAT THIS CULTURE WAS RETALIATORY UNDER CHIEF JACOBS IN TERMS OF UNFAIR, IN REGARDS TO DISCIPLINE.

ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE CATACLYSMS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ADEQUATELY ADDRESSED.

AND CERTAINLY, A PERSON COMMITTING A CRIME, I THINK WE ALL AGREE WE DO NOT WANT CRIME IN OUR COMMUNITY.

YOU NEED TO RENDER A CERTAIN LEVEL.

LEVEL ONE, LEVEL TWO, BUT WE THINK CLEARLY, THIS MAY ANSWER ON UNARMED AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALES WHO HAVE BEEN AMBUSHED AND KILLED.

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR ANSWERS FOR THAT.

BUT I THINK THERE HAS TO BE AN ADMISSION.

BEFORE WE CAN HAVE DIALOG, I WOULD CALL IT AN AAA RESPONSE.

WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THERE'S BEEN A PROBLEM.

IT'S BEEN A PROBLEM UNDER CHIEF JACOBS' WATCH.

THE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS BECOME CHRONICALLY WORSE IN BECOMING MORE WHITE.

I THINK WE HAVE ABOUT 1900 POLICE OFFICERS ON THE COLUMBUS POLICE DEPARTMENT, AND 20 SOMETHING OF THEM ARE AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND CAME, LOOK AT THE PERCENTAGE OF THAT.

YOU ONLY HAVE LESS THAN 200, 100 AND SOME POLICE OFFICERS WHO ARE BLACK.

20 CAME AND SAID THIS LEADERSHIP IS REALLY OUT OF CONTROL.

AT THAT TIME, CHIEF JACOBS, THE CHIEF OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT SAID WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS A PROBLEM.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

AND WE HAVE TO, THE SECOND THING WE HAVE TO DO, WE HAVE TO ADDRESS WHAT IS THE PROBLEM.

THEN POINT NUMBER THREE, WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE ATTITUDES OF THOSE WHO TRY TO RATIONALIZE IT'S NOT A PROBLEM.

WE HAVE TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS TO ACCEPT THAT IT IS A PROBLEM, AND WE HAVE TO AMEND BY ADDRESSING HOW TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM.

BUT UNTIL WE REALLY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AFRICAN-AMERICANS HAVE BEEN HARASSED, VICTIMS OF EXCESSIVE FORCE, INTIMIDATED AND IN PARTICULAR, THE OFFICERS IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT ARE DEALING WITH THIS WITH THEIR COLLEAGUES AND COMRADES, THINK ABOUT WHAT THE CITIZENS ARE DEALING WITH.

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY, WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT DIVERSITY ASPECTS IN A MINUTE, BUT I WANT TO GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND TO WHAT REVEREND KEE SAID AND WHAT THE COLUMBUS POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS DONE OVER THE RECENT YEARS.

>> I WOULD SAY THAT THE FACTS OF ALL OF THESE CASES ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

WE HAVE INVESTIGATIONS, PUBLIC RECORDS.

I LOVE LIVING IN OHIO FOR THAT PARTICULAR REASON, AND I LOVED WORKING IN OHIO FOR THAT PARTICULAR REASON.

TRANSPARENCY IS IMPORTANT.

BUT THE INVESTIGATIONS ARE ALSO IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED UNTIL WE'VE CREATED THOSE THINGS, AND NOW THERE ARE A MULTITUDE OF WAYS IN WHICH THESE INVESTIGATIONS CAN HAPPEN, AND THERE IS AN INVESTIGATOR AND DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC SAFETY AS WELL.

THESE THINGS ARE ADDRESSED.

LAWSUITS ARE ADDRESSED.

THEY'RE DEFENDED BY THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.

AND I'M NOT AFRAID OF WHAT ALL OF THOSE INVESTIGATIONS SAY WITH REGARD TO MY PARTICULAR ACTIONS, BUT I WILL SAY ONE THING, THAT RELATIONS ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO ME.

I HAD MULTITUDES OF WHAT WHICH CALL KITCHEN CABINET TYPE OF MEETINGS.

I'VE BROUGHT A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE INTO MY OFFICE AND SAID WHAT'S GOING ON?

THESE ARE OFFICERS.

I'M TRYING TO HEAR FROM THEM INSTEAD OF JUST THE UPPER LEVEL EXECUTIVE STAFF PEOPLE AND FIND OUT WHAT IT WAS THAT THEY NEED.

OBVIOUSLY, IN A WORKFORCE OF NOT JUST THE 1900 OFFICERS, BUT ANOTHER 400 CIVILIANS, WE HAVE A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME THAT ALL OF OUR EMPLOYEES FEEL VALUED, LISTENED TO AND THAT THEIR RIGHTS ARE PROTECTED.

MY EXPERIENCE IN A MALE-DOMINATED ORGANIZATION, IS THIS IS A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

I CAN'T SPEAK FROM, YOU KNOW, THE ARENA OF BEING A BLACK PERSON IN MY ORGANIZATION.

I KNOW THAT SOME OF THEM HAVE HAD A DIFFICULT WAY.

BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE DIVISION HAS TRIED TO ACCOMPLISH INVESTIGATIONS THAT WOULD GO TO PROMOTION AND MAKE A DECISION ABOUT THAT OUTCOME.

AND SOMETIMES THE PROOF IS THERE, AND SOMETIMES THE PROOF IS NOT.

BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE GOOD, IT'S REALLY CLOSE EMPLOYEE RELATIONSHIPS.

I AGREE.

IF YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF YOU'RE GOING TO GO OUT AND TO GOOD WORK FOR THE COMMUNITY.

AND IF YOU'RE NOT, IF YOU FEEL LIKE YOUR ORGANIZATION IS NOT SUPPORTED THAT MIGHT BE IMPINGED UPON.

I AGREE WE ARE DOING AS MUCH AS WE POSSIBLY CAN TO MAKE SURE THE EMPLOYEES ARE VALUED AND INVESTIGATE THEIR COMPLAINTS.

AND THERE ARE AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DIFFERENT PLACES THAT THEY CAN GO TO, TO ADDRESS THOSE COMPLAINTS.

>> OFFICER, YOU'RE THE FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN POLICE OFFICER, THE CITY OF COLUMBUS IS 28% AFRICAN-AMERICAN.

WHAT CAN BE DONE TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE OF COLOR ON THE POLICE FORCE?

>> SO OTHER THAN THE BASIC RECRUITMENT EFFORTS, I WOULD SAY EXACTLY WHAT I SAID THE FIRST TIME, EXACTLY WHAT THE REVEREND SAID ABOUT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT.

THERE HAS TO BE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT THERE IS SOME WRONGDOING AND SOME MISSTEPS ON THE PART OF NOT ONLY LAW ENFORCEMENT BUT THE SYSTEM IN GENERAL.

AND, LIKE WHAT SHE SAID, INSTEAD OF JUST LISTENING TO UPPER RANK AND FILE, REALLY LISTENING TO THE TROOPS ON THE GROUND, BOTH IN THE CIVILIAN WORLD AND THE FIRST RESPONDER WORLD.

AND THEN YOU HAVE TO DIVE INTO ANOTHER AREA.

HOW TRAUMATIZED ARE OUR UNDERRESOURCED COMMUNITIES AS WELL AS OUR FIRST RESPONDERS, AND AN AREA WHERE A LOT OF US DON'T LIKE TO TALK ABOUT.

GANG, VIOLENCE, FIRES, SHOOTING, PTSD AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

I CALL IT A CLASH OF CONDITIONS.

SO, WITH A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING NOT ONLY OF CULTURE, A LOT OF THEM NOT UNDERSTANDING OUR MENTAL HEALTH.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL THOSE BENEFITS AND YOU SEE THEY BOTH HAVE SO MUCH IN COMMON, I THINK ACKNOWLEDGING IT AND SHARING THE COMMONALITY THAT WE ALL HAVE, AND COMING TOGETHER WITH COMMONALITY, IT UNLOCKED THAT MUTE BUTTON THAT WAS IN MY HID HEAD TO THE CALL TO SERVE.

AND THEN I LEARNED HOW TO UNLOCK OTHER PEOPLE'S MUTE BUTTON >> SHE WAS AN AFTERNOON HOST, AND SHE HAS FIELDED QUESTIONS FROM OUR AUDIENCE.

>> MARY HAS A QUESTION FOR THE GROUP.

SHE WRITES, DO YOU BELIEVE THE RECENT EFFORTS TO RE-IMAGINE PUBLIC SAFETY, HEARING TO GET FEEDBACK FROM THE COMMUNITY WILL AFFECT REAL CHANGE IN COLUMBUS?

HOW DO WE RECOGNIZE IMPROVEMENT?

>> SOMETIMES IT'S NOT REALLY PLAYED OUT IN THE ATTITUDE.

WHAT I DON'T LIKE IS WHEN SOMETHING IS A FOREGONE PROCESS BUT IT'S NOT PROGRESS.

MANY TIMES WE WILL WINDOW DRESS AS IF WE HAVE SOMETHING THERE.

AND REALLY THINGS DO NOT CHANGE IN TERMS OF THE SYSTEMIC EVIL.

SO WE COULD KEEP HAVING DIALOG AND KEEP HAVING THE SUPPORT SYSTEMS AND NO ONE THERE TO SUPPORT THE SYSTEM, BUT WE NEED TO BE REALLY INTENTIONAL AND MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE MOVING FORWARD.

THERE ARE SOME EXPECTATIONS, TWO YEARS AND MAYBE THREE MONTHS.

THEN WE'RE AT JUST TWO OF THE EXPECTATIONS.

SO I'M JUST SAYING THAT IF YOU'RE NOT CAREFUL, IT CAN BE SOME PROGRESS.

BUT SOMETIMES IT'S THE ONGOING PROCESS BUT THERE'S VERY LITTLE PROGRESS.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT TRAINING AND HAVING DIALOG.

BUT THE CULTURE OF POLICING, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A CULTURE OF "US" AGAINST "THEM" IN THE POLICE, WHETHER IT'S TOO MANY GUNS ON THE POLICE.

THE POLICE OFFICER'S ALREADY WORRIED THAT SOMEONE'S GOING TO PULL A GUN ON THEM.

IT'S A "US" AGAINST "THEM" MENTALITY TO A LARGE EXTENT AND ALSO HOW THEY TREAT PEOPLE OF COLOR, PEOPLE FROM A LOWER SOCIOECONOMIC BACK GROUND.

HOW DO WE IMPROVE THE CULTURE OF POLICING SO IT'S MORE COOPERATIVE, MORE COMMUNITY MINDED, MORE UNDERSTANDING OF FOLKS THAT DON'T LOOK LIKE THOSE OFFICERS, DON'T COME FROM THE SAME BACKGROUND AS THOSE OFFICERS?

>> I DO BELIEVE THAT THAT "US" AGAINST "THEM" THING HAS EXISTED FOR MANY YEARS.

IT IS DIMINISHING BECAUSE WE HAVE ENCOURAGED COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT, GETTING OUT OF YOUR CRUISER AND TALKING TO ME AT LIBRARIES, COMMUNITY CENTERS, WHEREVER YOU MIGHT FIND PEOPLE.

WE ALSO TRY TO ENGAGE WITH THEM.

THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF, WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE PATRIARCHAL FEELING IN POLICING THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF EVERYONE.

BUT THAT WAS KIND OF LIKE AT THE RISK OF NOT LISTENING TO ANYONE AS WELL.

BUT I WOULD SAY IN THE LAST TEN YEARS OR SO, WE'VE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT OUR COMMUNITY IS SAYING.

SOME OF THOSE THINGS CAN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT, AS AS MUCH AS WE WISH WE COULD CHANGE THINGS FOR THE BETTER IMMEDIATELY, IT IS NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE TO CHANGE THAT QUICKLY.

BUT THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE CAN CHANGE VERY QUICKLY THROUGH POLICY AND SAYING, WE CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE, AND THAT HAS BEEN DONE.

WE'VE CHANGED AN AWFUL LOT OF RULES.

WE'VE UPDATED THEM TO BE MORE RESPONSIVE TO SOME OF OUR COMMUNITY CONCERNS.

AND I DID KNOW THAT OFFICERS TODAY ARE BETTER THAN THEY'VE EVER BEEN.

WHEN I JOINED THE DEPARTMENT IN 1979, THERE WAS DEFINITE "US" AGAINST "THEM" AND I CAN DO WHAT I WANT TO DO ATTITUDE WITH THE USE OF FORCE.

WITH ALL OF THE TECHNOLOGY IMPROVEMENTS WE HAVE, WITH THE TRAINING IMPROVEMENTS WE HAVE, WITH THE LEADERSHIP IMPROVEMENTS THAT WE'VE SEEN, WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO HOLD OFFICERS MORE ACCOUNTABLE, BECAUSE WE HAVE THAT INFORMATION NOW THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE IN THE PAST.

THE OFFICERS OF TODAY DIDN'T GROW UP IN THAT PERIOD OF TIME WHERE TRUSTING THE POLICE WAS KIND OF IMPLICIT, ALMOST.

NOW IT'S MORE OF A DISTRUST OF THE POLICE UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE AT TIMES, AND THAT'S OKAY.

I THINK OFFICERS THAT TAKE THE OATH UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD, AND THEY SHOULD BE.

THAT THE THINGS THAT THEY DO THAT OTHER CITIZENS DO JUST WON'T PASS MUSTER.

SO I DO BELIEVE THAT THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY THAT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO OUR COMMUNITY AND THEY'RE WILLING TO CONTINUE TO WORK IN THOSE CONDITIONS.

>> WE WANT TO RETURN TO QUESTIONS.

>> SONYA HAS A QUESTION ABOUT QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD ENSURE OFFICERS ARE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE FOR ABUSING POLICE POWER?

>> QUALIFIED IMMUNITY?

>> I BELIEVE THE SUPREME COURT JUST HEARD A CASE ON QUALIFIED IMMUNITY AND DECIDED NOT TO ADDRESS THAT AT THIS TIME.

IT'S NOT JUST POLICE OFFICERS.

IT APPLIES TO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

SO A LOT OF PUBLIC OFFICIALS HAVE QUALIFIED IMMUNITY AND DON'T THINK THAT THAT DOESN'T ALLOW POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN CITIES TO HOLD THEIR OWN OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE.

THAT'S REALLY ABOUT LAWSUITS AND DAMAGES THAT COULD BE CAUSED.

AND IF YOU'RE MAKING A DECISION IN THE LINE OF YOUR WORK THAT IS DISCRETIONARY, ALLOWED BY POLICY AND HAS NEVER BEEN TOLD THAT IT'S AGAINST POLICY OR AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION, THAT'S WHAT'S IMMEDIATE ABOUT IT.

THERE WAS A CLEARLY NEGATIVE THING THAT HAPPENED THAT IS SOMETHING AN OFFICER SHOULD KNOW, THEN THEY DON'T HAVE QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

THEY HAVE TO BE LISTENED TO AND GO TO COURT AND DETERMINE WHAT TYPE OF LIABILITY THEY MIGHT HAVE, BUT IT'S, IT'S A REALLY, REALLY BIG THING.

IT'S A FEDERAL THING.

IT'S NOT A LOCAL DECISION.

AND IT EXISTS.

AND I'LL MAKE THIS POINT AGAIN.

IT DOESN'T STOP POLICE AND MAYORS AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS TO NOT PULL THE OFFICERS THAT HAVE DONE A BAD ACT AND HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

>> QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, IT IS A HIGH BAR BECAUSE OF THE JOB THESE OFFICERS DO.

NOT TO INDICT AN OFFICER WHO IS CHARGED WITH EXCESSIVE FORCE AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE.

A LOT OF OFFICERS SHOULD FACE CRIMINAL CHARGES.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE'VE HAD TOO MANY OFFICERS AGAIN AND AGAIN WHERE WE'VE SEEN THE SAME SCENARIO, NOT JUST IN COLUMBUS.

BUT THE EXECUTION OF ONE OFFICER IF THE RECORD IS CORRECT AND THE FAMILY IS CORRECT, HERE IS A VICTIM WHO HAS BEEN SHOT IN THE BACK SIX TIMES.

SIX TIMES.

THAT'S AN EXECUTION.

THEN YOU HAVE ON THE OTHER HAND OFFICER COY.

BECAUSE HE CANNOT SEE HIS OTHER HAND, HE JUST FLAT-OUT MURDERS HIM.

I GIVE RESPECT TO THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT RENDERING AID.

YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF INJUSTICE.

>> REVEREND JEFFREY, A LITTLE HOUSEKEEPING, IF YOU COULD CHECK YOUR VIDEO SETTINGS ON YOUR PHONE.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR WORDS AND STRONG WORDS INDEED.

OFFICER, QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, DO YOU THINK IT'S TOO HIGH A BAR THAT GRAND JURIES FACE WHEN TRYING TO DECIDE THAT THERE'S PROBABLE CAUSE TO CHARGE A POLICE OFFICER WITH A CRIME, USING DEADLY FORCE?

>> YOU KNOW, I GOT TO BE HONEST BUT, QUALIFIED IMMUNITY IS NOT SOMETHING I HAVE RESEARCHED OFF READ UPON.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE CAREER PATH I CHOSE, IT SEEMS THAT I AM CONSTANTLY READING AND LEARNING.

I AM NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER BECAUSE I HAVE NOT TRULY EXAMINED IT.

>> IN GENERAL, BECAUSE POLICE OFFICERS ARE OFTEN FACED WITH DANGEROUS SITUATIONS, SHOULD THEY BE AFFORDED GREATER LEGAL PROTECTION BECAUSE OF THAT, THAT YOUR JUDGMENT SHOULD BE, YOU SHOULD HAVE A, SORT OF A BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT THAN THE AVERAGE PERSON DOES BECAUSE OF YOUR LINE OF WORK, WHEN USING DEADLY FORCE?

>> WELL, LIKE ANYBODY IN THE PROFESSION, ANYONE IN THE PROFESSION'S GOING TO GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT BASED ON THEIR LEVEL OF PROFESSIONALISM AND LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE IN THAT FIELD AS WELL AS TRAINING AND ON THE JOB.

IN SOME SENSE, YES.

BUT IN SOME SENSE, THAT HOLDS US AT A HIGHER LEVEL.

IF WE HAVE A HIGHER SKILL SET, A HIGHER LEVEL OF TRAINING, WE SHOULD BE EXPECTED TO NOT ONLY MAKE THE BEST DECISION IN THE MOMENT BUT ALSO HAVE THE ABILITIES TO ACCURATELY PROCESS ALL THIS INFORMATION AT A HIGHER RATE THAN THE AVERAGE CIVILIAN.

SO THAT'S KIND OF A CATCH-22 QUESTION.

SO YES, DO I THINK WE SHOULD GET A BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, YES.

BUT IF EVERYTHING DOESN'T LINE UP, IF WE'RE TRYING TO COVER OUR OWN BUTTS, AND WE REALLY DIDN'T DO IT RIGHT WE SHOULD NOT ONLY BE GIVEN THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT WHEN WE DO IT RIGHT BUT HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD WHEN WE DO IT WRONG.

>> THAT'S "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

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I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.

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