>>FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU >> Jeff: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, SEVERAL HIGH-PROFILE HEALTH CARE BILLS ARE ALIVE AND KICKING AT THE ROUNDHOUSE AS THE DEADLINE TO SUBMIT LEGISLATION NEARS.

>> Tobiassen: WE'VE CREATED AN ENVIRONMENT IN NEW MEXICO NOW WHERE IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, ESPECIALLY FOR PRIVATE PRACTICE DOCTORS, TO MAKE A LIVING.

AND IF THEY CAN'T MAKE A LIVING, IF THEY CAN'T SEE A BETTER WAY HERE, THEY'RE GOING TO EXIT.

>> Jeff: AND GETTING OLDER EVERY DAY, AN EXPERT ON AGING TELLS US AN EXPECTED BOOM IN NEW MEXICO'S ELDERLY POPULATION COULD MEAN FOR OUR STATE.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR.

WE'RE GOING TO SPEND A BUNCH OF TIME IN THIS EPISODE TALKING ABOUT THE STATE'S HEALTH CARE LANDSCAPE.

WHAT'S HOLDING US BACK FROM A MORE ROBUST CARE NETWORK, WHAT LAWMAKERS IN SANTA FE SAY THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT.

FOR ONE THING, OUR POPULATION IS RAPIDLY AGING.

ACCORDING TO A STUDY FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO, THE NUMBER OF STATE RESIDENTS AGED 65 OR OLDER IS EXPECTED TO INCREASE BY MORE THAN 200,000 OVER THE NEXT 20 YEARS.

BY 2040, NEARLY ONE IN FOUR NEW MEXICANS WILL REACH WHAT WE USED TO THINK OF AS THE MAGIC NUMBER FOR RETIREMENT.

COMING UP IN THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY'S PROGRAM, KUNM'S MEAGAN KAMERICK SPEAKS WITH CHIP CONLEY OF THE MODERN ELDER ACADEMY.

CONLEY IS WORKING TO REFRAME THE WAY PEOPLE CONSIDER THE CONCEPT OF AGING, AND THE WORKPLACE DYNAMICS BETWEEN OLDER AND YOUNGER GENERATIONS OF EMPLOYEES.

ALSO, A NEW PROGRAM THROUGH THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO'S PROJECT ECHO IS TEACHING MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS HOW TO IDENTIFY YOUNG PATIENTS WHO HAVE HAD MULTIPLE ADVERSE CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES.

COMING UP IN LESS THAN 15 MINUTES, SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DiVIZIO ASKS EVELYN PLUMB HOW EARLY INTERVENTION CAN HELP PATIENTS WHO MIGHT BE AT RISK FOR CHRONIC CONDITIONS AS THEY ENTER ADULTHOOD.

BUT FIRST, WE TURN OUR ATTENTION TO THE ROUNDHOUSE, WHERE LEGISLATORS HAVE INTRODUCED A BIPARTISAN BILL AIMED AT CHANGING NEW MEXICO'S MEDICAL MALPRACTICE LAW.

FOR YEARS, THE SANTA FE-BASED POLICY SHOP THINK NEW MEXICO HAS ADVOCATED FOR A COMPLETE REFORM OF THE MALPRACTICE LAW FOLLOWING A CHANGE IN 2021 THAT RAISED PAYOUT CAPS FOR CIVIL CLAIMS.

THAT INCREASE MEANT THE STANDARD MALPRACTICE INSURANCE POLICY COSTS ABOUT $43,000 ANNUALLY IN THIS STATE.

THAT'S COMPARED TO $22,000 IN ARIZONA AND $23,000 IN COLORADO.

IN THIS NEXT SEGMENT, POLITICS CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND SPEAKS WITH FRED NATHAN FROM THINK NEW MEXICO ABOUT THE BIPARTISAN BILL.

GWYNETH ALSO CHATTED WITH STATE SENATOR NICOLE TOBIASSEN, AND REPRESENTATIVE MARIANNA ANAYA ABOUT OTHER HEALTH CARE BILLS ON THEIR RADAR.

>> Gwyneth: SENATOR TOBIASSEN, YOU ARE A BUSINESS COACH.

AND YOU WORK WITH CLIENTS WHO INCLUDE HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE WORKING ON HERE IS TRYING TO MAKE THE BUSINESS OF HEALTH CARE BETTER FOR THEM, SO THAT WE CAN ATTRACT AND RETAIN MORE OF THOSE WORKERS.

YOU'VE GOT A TAX REBATE FOR MEDICAL SCHOOL LOANS.

YOU'VE GOT A MORATORIUM ON INCOME TAX FOR SOME OF THOSE WORKERS.

BUT YOU'RE ALSO LOOKING TO INCREASE THE AMOUNT DOCTORS AND OTHERS MAKE WHEN THEY GET REIMBURSED BY MEDICAID.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

>>Tobiassen: IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE'VE CREATED AN ENVIRONMENT IN NEW MEXICO NOW WHERE IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, ESPECIALLY FOR PRIVATE PRACTICE DOCTORS, TO MAKE A LIVING.

AND IF THEY CAN'T MAKE A LIVING, IF THEY CAN'T SEE A BETTER WAY HERE, THEY'RE GOING TO EXIT.

AND THEY ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN EXITING IN MASS NUMBERS.

I HAVE A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IN THAT.

ONE, COACHING AND HELPING THEM NAVIGATE THROUGH, DOING BUSINESS AS A DOCTOR IN OUR STATE FOR YEARS HERE WITH MY COACHING FIRM.

BUT MY HUSBAND, IN 2017, ALMOST PASSED AWAY RIGHT HERE IN OUR STATE BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE THE SPECIALISTS WHO COULD HIM.

THANKFULLY, I WAS ABLE TO FLY HIM TO CLEVELAND CLINIC WHERE THEY SAVED HIS LIFE.

NOW, IN 2025, WE'RE IN AN EVEN WORSE SITUATION WITH ACCESS TO MEDICINE.

SO, WE HAVE TO START ATTRACTING AND RETAINING DOCTORS, OR OUR SITUATION HERE WILL CONTINUE TO ERODE.

>> Gwyneth: YOU KNOW, THIS IS A STORY THAT WE SOMETIMES HEAR, BUT NOT USUALLY FROM PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN ALBUQUERQUE LIKE YOU DO.

SO, THE HEALTH CARE WORKER SHORTAGE WE THINK OF OFTEN AS A RURAL ISSUE, BUT IT'S BOTH URBAN AND RURAL.

>> Tobiassen: IT IS URBAN AND RURAL.

IT IS IN EVERY CORNER OF THE STATE.

AND RIGHT HERE, WHERE ALMOST HALF OF OUR POPULATION LIVES, WE'RE IN A CRISIS.

IF WE'RE IN A CRISIS IN ALBUQUERQUE METRO, WE'RE IN A MASSIVE CRISIS IN OUR SMALL TOWNS ACROSS THE STATE.

AND WE OWE IT TO THE CITIZENS OF NEW MEXICO TO FIX THIS PROBLEM NOW IN THIS SESSION.

>> Gwyneth: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>>Tobiassen: THANK YOU.

>> Gwyneth: REPRESENTATIVE ANAYA, 32 OUT OF 33 COUNTIES IN NEW MEXICO HAVE A CRITICAL, CHRONIC SHORTAGE OF PRIMARY CARE, MENTAL HEALTH, AND DENTAL PROVIDERS.

YOU'RE PROPOSING THAT THE STATE SPEND $2 MILLION ON RECRUITMENT.

WHO ARE YOU TARGETING?

>> Anaya: I AM VERY EXCITED TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

SO, WHAT OUR PROGRAM WOULD DO IS, ESSENTIALLY, RECRUIT BACK NEW MEXICO GRADUATES WHO HAVE GRADUATED FROM OUR INSTITUTIONS WHO ARE CURRENTLY WORKING IN OTHER STATES.

ONE OF THE REASONS WHY IS BECAUSE WE ARE COMPETING WITH THE REST OF THE NATION.

RIGHT NOW, NEW MEXICO IS NOT SPECIAL IN THAT WE ARE DESPERATELY LACKING HEALTH CARE WORKERS.

SO, AS THEY SAY IN SHOW BUSINESS, YOU GOTTA HAVE A GIMMICK.

I REALLY HOPE THIS PROGRAM IN PARTICULAR CAN CALL BACK GRADUATES OF OUR INSTITUTIONS TO COME SERVE AT THE PLACE THAT THEY LOVE THE MOST, WHICH IS HERE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE FOUND, HOWEVER, IS THAT A LOT OF THE RECRUITMENT INCENTIVE PROGRAMS ARE IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS.

SO, IT LEADS TO A LACK OF COMMUNICATION.

SO, THIS HOPES TO BRIDGE THAT.

THE WAY THE PROGRAM WORKS IS IT USES ALUMNI DATA FROM OUR OWN INSTITUTIONS TO CALL OUR ALUM AND ESSENTIALLY HEADHUNT THEM.

AND SAY, HEY, WE KNOW YOU'RE FINISHING UP YOUR FELLOWSHIP, WE KNOW YOU'RE FINISHING UP YOUR RESIDENCY SOMEWHERE ELSE, WE KNOW YOU'RE WORKING SOMEWHERE ELSE, HERE ARE ALL THE INCENTIVE PROGRAMS WE'VE PASSED THROUGHOUT THE YEARS TO MAKE SURE YOU'RE ABLE TO COME HOME.

WHETHER THAT MEANS IT IS OUR LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAMS, WHETHER IT MEANS IT'S OUR CHILDCARE PROGRAMS, ALL OF THOSE EXIST IN DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS RIGHT NOW.

SO, ONE OF THE JOBS WOULD BE TO LAY THAT INFORMATION OUT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY UNDERSTAND ALL OF THE BENEFITS THEY CAN HAVE WHEN THEY'RE COMING HOME.

BUT NOT ONLY THAT, WE'VE ALSO FOUND THAT LICENSING AND CREDENTIALING IS A TRICKY PROCESS TO NAVIGATE.

AND IT COULD BE HELD UP.

SO, ESSENTIALLY, WHAT THIS PROGRAM DOES THEN IS WALK THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN APPLYING FOR OPEN JOBS HERE THROUGH THE LICENSING CREDENTIALING PROCESS, IF IN FACT THEY NEED TO BE LICENSED OR CREDENTIALED.

AND ESSENTIALLY HOLDS THEIR HAND UNTIL THEY GET BACK HOME.

SO, WE CONNECT THEM WITH COMMUNITY RESOURCES.

WE HELP THEIR PARTNERS FIND JOBS.

WE HELP THEM FIND HOUSING HERE.

WE HOOK THEM UP WITH OUR CHILDCARE INCENTIVES.

AND HOPEFULLY, ONCE THEY MAKE A LIFE HERE, THEIR STUDENTS CAN USE A LOT OF THE PROGRAMS THAT WE HAVE FOR HIGHER EDUCATION RIGHT NOW, THAT WE'VE PASSED IN YEARS PREVIOUS.

>>Gwyneth: REPRESENTATIVE ANAYA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>>Anaya: OF COURSE, ANYTIME.

>> Gwyneth: FRED NATHAN, YOUR THINK TANK, THINK NEW MEXICO, MADE THE HEALTH CARE WORKER SHORTAGE YOUR MAIN FOCUS THIS YEAR.

IN ALL OF YOUR RESEARCH THAT YOU DID IN PUTTING THIS PACKAGE OF PROPOSALS TOGETHER, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ROOT OF OUR HEALTH CARE WORKER SHORTAGE IS?

>> Nathan: IT'S A NUMBER OF POLICIES THAT WE'VE IMPLEMENTED OVER THE YEARS.

THIS HAS TO DO WITH LOW MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENT RATES, A MEDICAL MALPRACTICE SYSTEM THAT'S COMPLETELY LOPSIDED, AND TAX POLICY WHICH PUT -- WE'RE ONE OF ONLY TWO STATES THAT TAXES MEDICAL SERVICES.

AND WHAT YOUR VIEWERS MAY NOT KNOW IS THAT THOSE TAXES ARE EATEN BY THE DOCTOR.

THEY CAN'T PASS THEM ON TO THEIR PATIENTS.

MEDICAID AND MEDICARE WON'T PAY STATE TAXES.

INSURANCE COMPANIES, IF YOU'RE PRIVATELY INSURED, NEGOTIATED OUT OF THE CONTRACT.

SO, DOCTORS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN NEW MEXICO ARE PAYING 7% THAT THEY WOULDN'T BE PAYING IN ANY OTHER STATE EXCEPT FOR HAWAII.

>> Gwyneth: SO, WE JUST TALKED TO REPUBLICAN SENATOR TOBIASSEN ABOUT SOME OF HER PROPOSALS.

BUT YOU HAVE SOME DIFFERENT APPROACHES, WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING TO DO?

>> Nathan: FOR EXAMPLE, ON THE LOW MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENT RATES, WE WANT TO CREATE A HEALTH CARE PERMANENT FUND.

AS YOUR VIEWERS MAY NOTE, THERE'S ABOUT A DOZEN OF THESE, BUT NONE FOR HEALTH CARE.

EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE SECOND HIGHEST EXPENSE TO STATE GOVERNMENT AND ALSO THE FASTEST GROWING.

SO, WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO THINGS LIKE REVERT MONEY FOR CAPITAL OUTLAY PROJECTS THAT WERE NOT SHOVEL-READY.

AND THE BILL IS GOING TO START, SENATE BILL 88, WITH $300 MILLION FROM THIS YEAR'S ONE-TIME MONIES.

AND WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO BUILD THAT TO $2 BILLION.

AT THAT POINT, IT WOULD BE LIKE A COLLEGE ENDOWMENT.

AND WE TAKE 5%, SO THAT WOULD BE $100 MILLION, AND THEN TAKE IT TO THE FEDS AND GET IT MATCHED THREE TO ONE TO USE FOR MEDICAID.

NOW YOU'D HAVE $400 MILLION EVERY YEAR THAT COULD BE DEDICATED TO BRINGING UP OUR VERY LOW MEDICAID RATES.

DOCTORS TELL US THEY'RE LOSING MONEY ON EVERY PROCEDURE THAT THEY DO FOR MEDICAID PATIENTS.

SO, THAT'S ONE WAY TO KEEP AND ATTRACT NEW DOCTORS IS TO BRING UP THOSE RATES.

SO, THAT'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

>> Gwyneth: MM-HMM.

AND MEDICAL MALPRACTICE IS A BIG ISSUE.

WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON HOW TO FIX IT?

>> Nathan: WELL, IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT WE'RE SECOND IN THE COUNTRY WITH THE NUMBER OF MEDICAL MALPRACTICE LAWSUITS FILED.

BECAUSE WE NO CAPS ON ATTORNEYS FEES, NO CAPS ON PUNITIVE DAMAGES, AND THE LOWEST STANDARD FOR PROVING PUNITIVE DAMAGES.

SO, WE WANT TO REBALANCE THE SYSTEM, MAKE IT MORE PATIENT-CENTERED AND SAFETY-CENTERED RATHER THAN LAWYER-CENTERED.

SO, ONE EXAMPLE IS ON PUNITIVE DAMAGES, TO TAKE 75% OF THOSE PUNITIVE DAMAGES THAT ARE RECOVERED, AND PUT IT IN A PUBLIC SAFETY FUND TO HELP HOSPITALS, PARTICULARLY RURAL HOSPITALS, REDUCING STAFFING RATIOS, ENHANCING TRAINING, AND HELPING THEM TO GET EQUIPMENT, JUST MORE MODERN EQUIPMENT.

AND THAT WILL BRING DOWN THE NUMBER OF INCIDENTS OF MEDICAL MALPRACTICE.

>> Gwyneth: PUNITIVE DAMAGES ARE DESIGNED TO PUNISH PEOPLE WHO DID WRONG AND DETER OTHER FOLKS FROM DOING THE WRONG THING.

SO, YOU'RE NOT PROPOSING TO REDUCE OR PUT A CAP ON THOSE PUNITIVE DAMAGES, BUT INSTEAD TO FUNNEL THAT MONEY INTO THE SYSTEM IN A DIFFERENT WAY?

>> Nathan: THAT'S CORRECT.

WE DON'T SEE ANY REASON THAT WE NEED TO SHOWER HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS LIKE IN THE NEW MAIL MEDICAL CASE ON ATTORNEYS.

THAT MONEY WOULD BE BETTER USED -- KEPT IN THE SYSTEM TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF INCIDENTS OF MALPRACTICE.

>> Gwyneth: ANOTHER THING YOU'RE WORKING ON IS MAKING IT EASIER FOR DOCTORS TO GET LICENSING IN THIS STATE.

HOW DOES THAT WORK?

>> Nathan: THERE'S AN INTERSTATE COMPACT THAT ALLOWS DOCTORS LICENSED IN OTHER STATES TO PRACTICE HERE.

IT'S THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT AND IMPACTFUL THING THIS LEGISLATURE CAN DO THIS SESSION TO REDUCE THE MEDICAL SHORTAGE.

I'D ALSO POINT OUT WE'RE ALSO TRYING TO PASS EIGHT OTHER COMPACTS FOR PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS, EMTs, ALMOST EVERY CATEGORY OF HEALTH CARE WORKERS, WE'RE BELOW NATIONAL STANDARDS BY A MATERIAL AMOUNT.

AND THESE COMPACTS WOULD HELP TO ADDRESS THAT PROBLEM.

>> Silva: PART OF STRENGTHENING OUR PRESS SHIELD IN NEW MEXICO IS TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS IN NEW MEXICO BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE FEDERAL PROTECTIONS LIKE WE WERE HOPING.

AND OUR PRESS SHIELD ACT HASN'T BEEN UPDATED SINCE 1973.

SO, OUR DEFINITIONS OF JOURNALISTS IS OUTDATED.

AND OUR DEFINITION OF MEDIUMS OF COMMUNICATION IS ALSO OUTDATED.

>> Jeff: THAT INTERVIEW WITH STATE REPRESENTATIVE SARAH SILVA ABOUT HER BILL TO PROTECT JOURNALIST SOURCES WILL AIR IN LESS THAN 15 MINUTES.

ACCORDING TO THE STATE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, YOUNG PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO ARE SUBJECTED TO THE HIGHEST RATES OF ADVERSE CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES IN THE NATION.

NEARLY ONE IN FOUR KIDS HERE HAVE EXPERIENCED OR BEEN EXPOSED TO FOUR OR MORE INSTANCES OF ABUSE, NEGLECT, OR HOUSEHOLD DYSFUNCTION BEFORE THEIR 18th BIRTHDAY.

THESE EXPERIENCES, KNOWN AS ACES, CAN ADD UP AND HAVE DEVASTATING EFFECTS ON CHILDREN.

A NEW PROGRAM FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO'S PROJECT ECHO IS FOCUSED ON COUNTERACTING THE IMPACTS OF ACES IN AN EFFORT TO HEAD OFF SEVERAL CHRONIC CONDITIONS IN ADULTHOOD.

THOSE INCLUDE DEPRESSION, DIABETES, AND HEART DISEASE.

SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DiVIZIO SAT DOWN WITH PROJECT ECHO'S DR. EVELYN PLUMB, A TAOS-BASED CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, TO DISCUSS WHY THIS NEW PROGRAM CHOSE THIS FIGHT.

>> Lou: DR. EVELYN PLUMB, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Plumb: I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE, LOU, THANK YOU.

>> Lou: NOW, JEFF JUST LAID OUT THE PROBLEM, THE PREVALENCE OF ADVERSE CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES AMONG PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT EXACTLY QUALIFIES AS ONE OF THOSE ADVERSE EXPERIENCES, AND WHERE ARE WE SEEING THEM?

>> Plumb: ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY SPECIFIC WHAT QUALIFIES AS AN ADVERSE CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCE.

I'LL USE THE ACRONYM ACES BECAUSE IT'S A MOUTHFUL.

THERE ARE THREE BROAD CATEGORIES.

THERE'S ABUSE, AND THAT COULD BE PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL, OR SEXUAL.

THERE'S NEGLECT, WHICH COULD BE EMOTIONAL OR PHYSICAL.

AND THEN THERE'S THE BROADER CATEGORY, WHICH IS CALLED HOUSEHOLD DYSFUNCTION.

AND THAT COVERS ALL SORTS OF BEHAVIORS THAT INCLUDE A HOUSEHOLD OR A CLOSE FAMILY MEMBER WHO IS INCARCERATED, HOUSEHOLD OR FAMILY MEMBER WHO HAS SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS THAT'S NOT EFFECTIVELY MANAGED, ALSO FAMILY MEMBER WHO HAS A SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER WHICH I'LL SAY IS ALSO A MENTAL ILLNESS, BUT BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A PROMINENT FACET OF ACES WE BREAK IT OUT SEPARATELY.

AND ALSO WHEN THERE'S A HIGH DEGREE OF DISCORD IN THE HOUSEHOLD, USUALLY WE THINK OF THAT AS BETWEEN PARENTS OR CAREGIVERS BUT IT COULD BE BETWEEN OTHER HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS.

AND ALSO EXPOSURE TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

THAT'S, PERHAPS, THE CHILD IS NOT ACTUALLY BEING PHYSICALLY HURT THEMSELVES, BUT THEY'RE WITNESSING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IN THE HOUSEHOLD AND WE'VE DISCOVERED THAT IN ITSELF IS VERY DAMAGING.

>> Lou: OKAY.

WHAT ARE THE BROADER TYPES OF PROBLEMS OR CONTEXTS OF THOSE ACES THAT NEW MEXICO KIDS ARE FACING THAT MAKES THIS SUCH A SERIOUS PROBLEM HERE IN PARTICULAR AS OPPOSED TO OTHER STATES?

>> Plumb: YEAH, IT REALLY IS A DIRE PROBLEM IN NEW MEXICO.

THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH RELEASED AN ADVISORY IN 2022 THAT NEW MEXICO HAD THE HIGHEST ACES IN ALL OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO, IT REALLY BROUGHT OUR ATTENTION TO THE ISSUE.

THERE'S A BIGGER STORY THERE, A VERY DETAILED ONE, IN TERMS OF WHY NEW MEXICO SUFFERS SO MUCH WITH ACES.

BUT THE BIGGEST LAYER HAS TO DO WITH THE COMBINATION OF ACES WITH WHAT ARE CALLED SOCIAL DETERMINANTS OF HEALTH.

SO, THOSE ARE CHARACTERISTICS THAT STRUCTURE OUR LIVES IN FORMATIVE WAYS.

THESE ARE THINGS LIKE WHERE WE LIVE, HOW MUCH MONEY OUR FAMILY MAKES, AND VERY CLOSE CONNECTION, WHAT ARE OUR ACCESS IS LIKE TO HIGH-QUALITY CHILDCARE, EDUCATION, AND HEALTH CARE.

AND ALL OF THESE DETERMINANTS OF HEALTH CAN SET US OFF ON DIFFERENT PATHS IN LIFE VARIOUSLY TO SUCCESS OR MUCH MORE CHALLENGING PATHS.

AND THESE INTERACT VERY CLOSELY WITH ACES.

SO IF, FOR EXAMPLE, A CHILD MAYBE HAS ONE OR TWO ACES, BUT THEY'RE VERY LUCKY IN TERMS OF SOCIAL DETERMINANTS, PERHAPS THEY COME FROM A VERY AFFLUENT FAMILY, THEY LIVE IN A VERY SAFE COMMUNITY, THEY HAVE ACCESS TO HIGH-QUALITY EDUCATION AND HEALTH CARE, THEN THEY HAVE BUFFERS.

THEY HAVE A LOT OF QUALITIES IN THEIR LIVES THAT ARE GOING TO MITIGATE THE EFFECTS OF THOSE ACES SO THAT THEY'RE NOT EXPERIENCING SO MUCH OF THAT TOXIC STRESS, WHICH LEADS TO THE DOWNSTREAM EFFECTS THAT WE WORRY ABOUT WITH ACES.

IN NEW MEXICO, WE'RE REALLY MISSING A LOT OF THOSE BUFFERS FOR MANY CHILDREN, ESPECIALLY WHO LIVE IN RURAL AREAS, OR WHO COME FROM OTHERWISE UNDERSERVED POPULATIONS.

THERE'S JUST NOT A LOT OF PROTECTION BETWEEN HAVING THOSE ACES HAPPEN TO THEM, AND THE LIKELY DOWNSTREAM CONSEQUENCES.

SO, A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THESE STRUCTURAL FACTORS OF CHILD POVERTY AND LACK OF ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION.

>> Lou: OKAY.

I WANT TO FOCUS ON THAT LACK OF ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE JUST FOR A MINUTE, THE NATURE OF OUR STATE, RURAL AREAS IN PARTICULAR.

HOW DO YOU BRIDGE THE GAP WITH FOLKS IN THOSE AREAS WHO MAY BE DISTRUSTFUL OF -- OR AT LEAST HESITANT TO GET A REGULAR DOCTOR'S APPOINTMENT FOR THEMSELVES OR EVEN THEIR CHILDREN?

>> Plumb: YEAH, THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION.

THIS IS ACTUALLY A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF WHAT WE DO WITH PROJECT ECHO, SPECIFICALLY, BECAUSE A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF THE MODEL IS HOW WE ARE TRYING TO CONNECT THAT DIVIDE BETWEEN THE ACADEMY AND THEN COMMUNITY PROVIDERS BECAUSE WE DO KNOW THAT COMMUNITY PROVIDERS ARE BEST SITUATED TO BE WELCOMING AND INVITING TO PEOPLE IN RURAL AREAS.

AND COMMUNITIES THAT ARE WELL INTEGRATED INTO THEIR COMMUNITIES ARE MUCH MORE ACCESSIBLE, BOTH PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND PHYSICALLY, OF COURSE FOR RURAL RESIDENTS.

SO, A BIG PART OF THE EDUCATION THAT WE DO WITH PROVIDERS IN RURAL AREAS IS AROUND TRAUMA-INFORMED CARE.

AND THAT'S ABOUT MAKING THEIR CLINICS AND THEIR VISITS AS WELCOMING AND INVITING AND COLLABORATIVE AS THEY CAN.

AND TAKING INTO ACCOUNT FACTORS THAT MAY INFLUENCE THOSE VISITORS' SENSE OF APPREHENSION OF BEING ENGAGED WITH THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

>> Lou: OKAY.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT THAT THESE ADVERSE EXPERIENCES, ACES, CAN HAVE STARTING WITH SHORT TERM.

THE MOST RECENT KIDS COUNT DATA CITES ACES AS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR FOR KIDS FALLING BEHIND AT SCHOOL.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW THESE EXPERIENCES AFFECT A CHILD'S HEALTH AND THE RIPPLE EFFECT THAT CAN HAVE ON THE REST OF THEIR LIVES AS A KID?

>> Plumb: YES.

THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.

SO, THE BROADER EXPLANATORY MECHANISM IN TERMS OF HOW ACES LEAD TO TOXIC STRESS WHICH THEN LEAD TO PHYSIOLOGICAL, SOCIAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL NEGATIVE OUTCOMES IS THAT THERE'S A PROLONGED ACTIVATION OF THE STRESS RESPONSE.

SO, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE WAY THE HUMAN BRAIN IS MEANT TO FUNCTION WITH STRESS, IT'S REALLY WELL DESIGNED FOR ACUTE, SHORT PERIODS OF STRESS.

LIKE GETTING AWAY FROM A TIGER IN THE JUNGLE.

WE WANT OUR BODY TO BE IN FULL STRESS RESPONSE.

THE PROBLEM WITH ACES IS THAT DEFINITIVELY THEY ARE CHRONIC.

THEY'RE ONGOING, OR THEY HAVE ONGOING IMPACTS.

SO, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE TIGER LIVES IN THE HOUSE WITH YOU.

SO, YOU NEVER GET A REPRIEVE FROM THAT STRESS RESPONSE.

AND OUR BODIES WERE NOT DESIGNED FOR THAT.

FOR CHILDREN ESPECIALLY, THEIR BRAINS AND THEIR BODIES ARE STILL VERY MUCH UNDER DEVELOPMENT.

AND THEY'RE IN THESE SENSITIVE FORMATIVE PERIODS.

THAT CAN ACTUALLY FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE BRAIN ARCHITECTURE AND ORGAN DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE THIS CHILD IS BASICALLY BEING WIRED TO LIVE IN A SURVIVAL STATE.

THAT MEANS THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO DEVOTE RESOURCES TO THINGS LIKE HOMEWORK AND FORMING POSITIVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEERS AND FAMILY MEMBERS.

THEY'RE JUST ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

WE KNOW THAT FOR CHILDREN THERE'S A LOT OF SOCIAL AND BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS FOR CHILDREN WITH FOUR OR MORE ACES THEY'RE 30 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO HAVE A DIAGNOSED SOCIAL OR BEHAVIORAL PROBLEM IN SCHOOL.

AND THEN LATER ON IN LIFE WE SO SOCIAL OUTCOMES SUCH AS TEEN PREGNANCY AND PATERNITY.

YOU'RE, IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, LIKELY TO BE INCARCERATED.

UNEMPLOYMENT, LOWER EDUCATIONAL ENTERTAINMENT, ADULTS WITH FOUR OR MORE ACES ARE 15 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO ATTEMPT SUICIDE THAN THOSE WITH LOWER OR NO ACES.

DEPRESSION, ANXIETY, A WHOLE RANGE OF CHRONIC DISEASES FROM HEART DISEASE, ALZHEIMER'S AND DEMENTIA, I THINK THAT'S AN 11-FOLD INCREASE FOR THOSE WITH FOUR OR MORE ACES.

STROKE, ALL KINDS OF CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASES, DIABETES.

YOU NAME IT.

>> Lou: OKAY.

HOW DOES HAVING SO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THESE TYPES OF EXPERIENCES, HOW DOES IT IMPACT OUR STATE AS A WHOLE?

AND CAN SOME OF OUR STRUGGLES, WHETHER IT BE EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES, INCARCERATION, CRIME IN GENERAL, DO YOU THINK THERE COULD BE A SIGNIFICANT DECLINE IF WE WERE ABLE TO GET A HANDLE ON THESE AS A SOCIETY?

>> Plumb: ABSOLUTELY.

YES.

THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF WHAT WE'RE DOING WITH THE ACES ECHO.

IN FACT, ONE OF THE BIG METRICS THAT WE SEE WITH OUR PARTICIPANTS THAT WAS REALLY HEARTENING FOR US IS THEY RATE THINGS LIKE HOW LIKELY THEY ARE TO USE AN INTERVENTION THAT THEY LEARNED DURING AN ECHO IN THEIR NEXT SESSION OR SOMETHING.

AND ONE OF THE NUMBERS THAT WE SEE IN THERE THAT'S VERY HIGH IS A FEELING OF HOPE THAT ACES ARE PREVENTIBLE AND TREATABLE.

THIS IS A REALLY HUGE PART OF THE CAMPAIGN WITH THIS ECHO IS IT'S NOT ONLY ABOUT THE CONCRETE, THE TECHNICAL SKILLS ABOUT HOW TO WORK WITH CHILDREN WITH ACES, I THINK IT'S ABOUT LIFTING THE MORALE AND REALLY GALVANIZING PROVIDERS AND EDUCATORS.

BECAUSE I THINK WHEN WE JUST HEAR THE BARE STATISTICS, THEY'RE SO GRIM.

IT CAN REALLY LEAVE US FEELING LIKE WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT THIS.

ALL OF THE EVIDENCE SUBSTANTIATES THAT ACES ARE BOTH PREVENTABLE AND TREATABLE.

AND THAT TREATING THE DOWNSTREAM EFFECTS, THE TOXIC STRESS IN ADULTS, HELPS US TO PREVENT TRANSMISSION TO CHILDREN BOTH EXISTING CHILDREN AND FUTURE CHILDREN OF THOSE ADULTS.

YES, THERE'S A LOT THAT CAN BE DONE.

>> Jeff: IN PART TWO OF LOU'S CONVERSATION WITH DR. PLUMB, THEY GET INTO STRATEGIES FOR PARENTS TO IDENTIFY THEIR OWN STRESS RESPONSES AS THEY WORK TO BREAK THOSE CYCLES FOR THEIR KIDS.

THAT'S COMING UP IN ABOUT 30 MINUTES.

NOW, BACK TO THE ROUNDHOUSE WHERE LAWMAKERS ARE CONSIDERING SEVERAL BILLS RELATED TO ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

LET'S START WITH HOUSE BILL 60, WHICH WOULD CREATE THE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ACT.

THE MEASURE WOULD SET UP A REGULATORY FRAMEWORK FOR AI WITH RULES AND REGULATIONS PROMOTING TRANSPARENCY AND CONSUMER PROTECTIONS AGAINST ALGORITHMIC DISCRIMINATION.

THE NEW MEXICO ATTORNEY GENERAL WOULD HAVE ENFORCEMENT POWER.

ANOTHER PROPOSAL COMES IN THE FORM OF HOUSE BILL 215.

THAT ONE WOULD PROHIBIT LANDLORDS FROM USING AI TO MANIPULATE RENT PRICING.

THEN THERE'S HOUSE MEMORIAL TWO, WHICH ASKS THE LEGISLATIVE EDUCATION STUDY COMMITTEE TO SPIN OFF A GROUP THAT WOULD RECOMMEND A STRUCTURE FOR THE USE OF AI IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

IN THE EYES OF MANY TECHNOLOGY TRANSPARENCY ADVOCATES THIS POLICY-MAKING CONVERSATION REGARDING AI COULD NOT ARRIVED AT THE ROUNDHOUSE SOONER.

LAST NOVEMBER ON OUR PROGRAM, KUNM'S MEAGAN KAMERICK SPOKE TO TWO COMPUTER SCIENCE EXPERTS ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF CREATING PRIVACY GUARDRAILS ON ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

>> Moses: WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT THERE ARE GOING TO BE LOOPHOLES, THAT THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE PERFECT LEGISLATION.

AND I THINK A REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE OF THE PUZZLE IS TO EVALUATE WHAT THE AI IS DOING, WHAT IMPACTS IT'S HAVING ON PEOPLE'S LIVES, AND WHAT THE LEGISLATION IS AND IS NOT PREVENTING.

AND HAVING THAT FEEDBACK, SO THAT LEGISLATORS ARE IN THE HABIT OF WE'VE GOT TO REEVALUATE.

WE THOUGHT WE WERE PREVENTING DEEPFAKES IN ELECTIONS WITH THIS LEGISLATION, DID IT WORK?

AND IF IT DID WORK, OKAY, GOOD.

IS THERE ANYTHING WE NEED TO STRENGTHEN?

IF IT DIDN'T WORK, WHERE WERE THOSE LOOPHOLES?

I THINK MANY OF THE LOOPHOLES WILL BE FOUND AFTER THE FACT.

>> Jeff: YOU CAN WATCH MEAGAN'S FULL INTERVIEW WITH DR. MELANIE MOSES AND DR. CHRIS MOORE ON THE NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

LET'S GO BACK TO THE ROUNDHOUSE ONE MORE TIME WITH POLITICS CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND.

THIS WEEK, GWYNETH CAUGHT UP WITH DEMOCRATIC STATE REP SARAH SILVA OF LAS CRUCES, WHO IS SPONSORING AN UPDATE TO NEW MEXICO'S ARCHAIC JOURNALIST SHIELD LAW, WITH AN EYE ON THE DIGITAL AGE.

HOUSE BILL 153 WOULD PROHIBIT STATE AGENCIES FROM COMPELLING REPORTERS TO COUGH UP CONFIDENTIAL RESOURCES OR INFORMATION, WITH A FEW LIMITED EXCEPTIONS.

FOR MORE ON THAT BILL, HERE'S GWYNETH.

>> Gwyneth: REPRESENTATIVE SARAH SILVA, YOU HAVE A PROPOSAL HERE THAT MIRRORS SOMETHING WE SAW IN CONGRESS IN JANUARY.

DEMOCRATS IN THE HOUSE PASSED THE PRESS ACT, ATTEMPTING TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS FROM HAVING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DEMAND THEY TURN OVER INFORMATION THEY'VE GATHERED IN THEIR REPORTING.

WHY DO WE NEED THIS AT THE STATE LEVEL, AND WHY DO WE NEED IT NOW?

>> Silva: YEAH, THANKS.

THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

SO, THE FEDERAL PRESS ACT WAS NEVER PASSED.

SO REPUBLICANS, AT THE REQUEST OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, DECLINED TO SUPPORT WHAT WAS A BIPARTISAN ACT.

SO, PART OF STRENGTHENING OUR PRESS SHIELD IN NEW MEXICO IS TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS IN NEW MEXICO BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE FEDERAL PROTECTIONS LIKE WE WERE HOPING.

AND OUR PRESS SHIELD ACT HASN'T BEEN UPDATED SINCE 1973.

SO, OUR DEFINITIONS OF JOURNALISTS IS OUTDATED.

AND OUR DEFINITION OF MEDIUMS OF COMMUNICATION IS ALSO OUTDATED.

>> Gwyneth: NOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF JOURNALIST.

YOU WANT TO MAKE IT MORE INCLUSIVE, WHY?

>> Silva: WELL, I WANT TO BE ABLE TO, JUST AS OUR OLD STATUTE DID, IT ENCOMPASSED ALL JOURNALISM AND ALL JOURNALISTS AT THAT TIME.

AND IT'S 2025, SO JOURNALISM AND JOURNALISTS JUST LOOK VERY DIFFERENT AND HAVE VERY DIFFERENT WAYS OF COMMUNICATING.

SO, I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS NEW PRESS ACT IS REFLECTIVE OF THE BROAD AND UNIVERSAL DEFINITIONS OF WHAT A JOURNALIST IS.

>> Gwyneth: SARAH SILVA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> Silva: THANKS.

>> Gwyneth: BILL CHURCH, YOU'RE THE EXECUTIVE EDITOR OF THE 'SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN.'

THIS WEEK, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OUR BUSINESS, A LITTLE BIT OF NEWS.

EARLIER, WE TALKED TO REPRESENTATIVE SARAH SILVA WHO HAS A BILL THAT WOULD MIRROR THE PRESS ACT WE SAW IN WASHINGTON EARLIER.

CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A SITUATION WHERE A NEWSPAPER LIKE THE 'NEW MEXICAN' OR ANY NEWS ORGANIZATION WOULD NEED THE PROTECTIONS SHE'S TALKING ABOUT?

>> Church: GWYNETH, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE SCENARIOS THAT HAPPENS ON A DAILY BASIS.

IT'S IRONIC THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE IN THE WEEK THAT THE AP WAS BOOTED OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE FOR AN EVENT BECAUSE THEIR STYLEBOOK COMMITTEE DIDN'T MEET.

AND THE REALITY IS WE DEAL WITH THESE ISSUES ON A REGULAR BASIS.

THE OBSTACLES THAT EXIST, I CAN'T THINK OF AN ORGANIZATION THAT I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN WHERE WE HAVEN'T HAD TO DEAL WITH THE SCENARIO WHERE IT WAS EITHER A LAWSUIT OR A COMPLAINT THAT ESSENTIALLY TAKES AWAY FROM THE JOURNALISM, WHICH IN MANY WAYS IS DONE ON BEHALF OF THE PUBLIC.

WHEN WE WERE IN FLORIDA, WE FOUGHT A LAWSUIT FOR MORE THAN A YEAR AND A HALF OVER A NONPROFIT THAT HAD FOLDED AND IT SUED US, AND IT CONTINUED IT.

IT NEVER WENT TO TRIAL.

AND YET, THOSE ARE RESOURCES, THOSE WERE DOLLARS THAT WERE SPENT.

THE SHIELD LAW, IN MANY WAYS, PROTECTS THAT.

>> Gwyneth: ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS SESSION IS PROPOSED CHANGES TO THE INSPECTION OF PUBLIC RECORDS ACT.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT JOURNALISTS USE EVERY DAY, BUT MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC TOO USE IT ALL THE TIME FOR INFORMATION.

BUT WHAT WE HEAR FROM THE RECORDS CUSTODIANS, THE EMPLOYEES WHO WORK AT THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE, OR THE CITY OF ROSWELL, OR THE EDDY COUNTY COMMISSION, WHATEVER IT IS, THEY SAY IT TAKES SO MUCH TIME AND EFFORT THAT IT PULLS THEM AWAY FROM THEIR JOBS, THEIR REGULAR JOBS, TO GO LOOKING FOR THESE RECORDS, ESPECIALLY LAPEL VIDEOS OF POLICE OFFICERS.

THEY TAKE SO MUCH TIME TO EDIT AND REDACT AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

WHY SHOULD IT STAY THE WAY IT IS NOW WHERE NO ONE HAS TO PAY IN ORDER FOR THEM TO COLLECT THOSE RECORDS AND GIVE THEM OUT?

WHY SHOULD THIS BE, YOU KNOW, SUCH A LIBERAL LAW AS IT IS NOW?

>> Church: I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A LIBERAL LAW AS A COMMON SENSE LAW.

IF WE WERE A REGULAR BUSINESS, AND THERE WAS DEMAND FOR OUR PRODUCT, WOULDN'T WE PUT MORE RESOURCES AND MORE ATTENTION TO THAT?

THIS IS WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH IPRA.

IT IS NOT THE RESPONDERS WHO ARE CONSTANTLY LOOKING FOR IT.

IT IS PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT THERE'S A NEED FOR THIS INFORMATION BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GETTING IT.

THAT'S THE REALITY THAT SEEMS TO BE MISSING FROM ORGANIZATIONS WHO SIT THERE AND SAY THIS IS A BURDEN FOR OUR PUBLIC AGENCIES.

IF THERE IS SUCH AN INTEREST AND SUCH A DEMAND, WOULDN'T YOU LEAN TOWARDS THIS?

I MEAN, LET'S SAY YOU'RE A POP CULTURE FAN, OKAY?

YOU OPEN A BUSINESS AND YOU'VE GOT 10,000 TAYLOR SWIFT T-SHIRTS.

IF AMAZON OWNED THAT BUSINESS, THEY WOULD DELIVER THOSE 10,000 T-SHIRTS TO YOU.

THE WAY IPRA WORKS HERE, YOU WOULD HAVE TO FILE A REQUEST AND WAIT NINE MONTH FOR THOSE T-SHIRTS THAT ARE ALREADY AVAILABLE.

IF ANYTHING, PUBLIC AGENCIES AND PUBLIC OFFICIALS, IF THEY'RE TRULY CAMPAIGNING ON THE NEED FOR TRANSPARENCY, THEY SHOULD FOCUS ON HOW DO WE DO A BETTER JOB.

AND TECHNOLOGY IS A LONG WAY TOWARDS MAKING THOSE RECORDS ACCESSIBLE AND YOU CAN TAKE CARE OF A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THOSE ISSUES, SO THEN YOU CAN DEAL WITH THOSE OTHER ISSUES THAT ARISE.

BUT THE REASON THAT MEDIA REQUESTS THOSE LAPEL VIDEOS IS BECAUSE WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH OF WHAT HAPPENED.

>>Gwyneth: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US TODAY.

>>Church: THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: THANKS TO GWYNETH AND OUR GUESTS UP AT THE STATE CAPITOL.

LIFE EXPECTANCY HAS INCREASED BY SIX YEARS ACROSS THE WORLD BETWEEN 2000 AND 2019, ACCORDING TO THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

AND AS MORE PEOPLE ARE LIVING LONGER THEY'RE EXPLORING WHAT THAT LATTER PART OF THEIR LIVES COULD LOOK LIKE.

OFTEN DUBBED THE THIRD ACT.

HERE IN NEW MEXICO, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE 65 AND OLDER IS GROWING FASTER THAN IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

THE IMPACTS WILL BE WIDE-RANGING.

AND CORRESPONDENT AND KUNM NEWS DIRECTOR MEAGAN KAMERICK IS GOING TO EXPLORE THEM HERE ON THE SHOW OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS.

BUT WE WANT TO START BY FRAMING THE DISCUSSION PROPERLY, BY UNDERSTANDING WHAT AN AGING POPULATION MEANS BOTH FOR OUR STATE AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING OLDER HERE.

CHIP CONLEY CREATED THE MODERN ELDER ACADEMY TO TRY AND HELP PEOPLE FIGURE THIS OUT.

CONLEY WAS A STRATEGIC ADVISOR FOR HOSPITALITY AND LEADERSHIP AT AIRBNB AND HAS GIVEN SEVERAL TED TALKS ON THIS TOPIC.

HE'S ALSO THE AUTHOR OF LEARNING TO LOVE MIDLIFE.

THE ACADEMY STARTED AS A SERIES OF ONLINE WORKSHOPS AND IN-PERSON RETREATS IN MEXICO.

LAST YEAR, CONLEY OPENED A CAMPUS IN SANTA FE.

AS HE EXPLAINS TO MEGAN, HE'S FOCUSED ON REFRAMING THE CONCEPT OF AGING AND HELPING ADULTS FIND RENEWED PURPOSE AND POSSIBILITY IN MIDLIFE AND BEYOND.

>> Megan: CHIP, THANKS FOR JOINING US ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Conley: THANK YOU, MEAGAN.

IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> Megan: YOU HAD YOUR OWN STRUGGLES WITH MIDLIFE, AND NOW YOU TALK ABOUT A MIDLIFE CHRYSALIS, RATHER THAN A CRISIS.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> Conley: WELL, I GIVE LOTS OF SPEECHES, AND THE FIRST THING I ASK IS WHAT'S THE NUMBER ONE WORD ASSOCIATED WITH MIDLIFE.

AND 99.9% OF THE TIME THE AUDIENCE SAYS CRISIS.

AND THE WHOLE MIDLIFE CRISIS PREMISE CAME FROM A CANADIAN PSYCHOLOGIST IN THE MID-1960s WHO JUST STUDIED A FEW MEN.

>> Megan: I'M SORRY.

>> Conley: IT'S NOT TO SAY THERE'S NOT A LOW POINT, ON AVERAGE, FOR PEOPLE AROUND 45 TO 52.

THE DATA ON THE U-CURVE OF HAPPINESS IS PRETTY CLEAR.

BUT PEOPLE GET HAPPIER AFTER THAT POINT.

SO THE CHRYSALIS IDEA IS THAT THERE'S A CATERPILLAR AND A BUTTERFLY AND IN BETWEEN THERE'S THE CHRYSALIS, AND THAT'S WHERE THE TRANSFORMATION HAPPENS.

LONG STORY SHORT, I DID HAVE A REALLY ROUGH TIME BETWEEN 45 AND 50.

DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE U-CURVE OF HAPPINESS.

DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT A MIDLIFE CHRYSALIS.

I JUST KNEW I WASN'T HAPPY WITH MY LIFE IN ALL KINDS OF WAYS.

YOU KNOW, I GOT TO THE OTHER SIDE OF IT, AND THEN SPENT MOST OF MY 50s AS THE IN-HOUSE MENTOR TO THE THREE FOUNDERS OF AIRBNB.

THEY CALLED ME THE MODERN ELDER.

I DIDN'T LIKE THAT A WHOLE LOT AT FIRST.

THEY SAID, CHIP, A MODERN ELDER IS SOMEONE WHO IS AS CURIOUS AS THEY ARE WISE.

IT'S LIKE, OKAY, I LIKE THAT.

THAT LED ME, ULTIMATELY, TO CREATING THE MODERN ELDER ACADEMY.

MEA.

>> Megan: WHY DO YOU THINK WE NEED TO REFRAME THE WAY WE LOOK AT THE SO-CALLED THIRD ACT IN OUR LIVES AND HOW WE THINK ABOUT AGING?

>> Conley: WELL, THE TRUTH IS WITH THE LONGEVITY REVOLUTION THAT'S GOING ON -- NOW, LET'S BE CLEAR.

IT'S VERY SOCIOECONOMICALLY BASED.

YOU CAN HAVE PEOPLE -- YOU KNOW, THE AVERAGE NATIVE AMERICAN HAS A LIFE EXPECTANCY OF JUST 64 YEARS OLD, WHICH IS LESS THAN AFGHANISTAN.

YET, THE AVERAGE ASIAN AMERICAN UNITED STATES HAS A LIFE EXPECTANCY OF 87.

A 23-YEAR AGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE.

SO -- EXCUSE ME.

WHAT'S TRUE, NATIONALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY, IS LONGEVITY IS HERE TO STAY.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT WE NEED TO SORT OF REEVALUATE HOW WE WANT TO CONSCIOUSLY CURATE THE SECOND HALF OF OUR LIFE.

-- EXCUSE ME.

>> Megan: IT'S OKAY.

>> Conley: IF YOU'RE 54 YEARS OLD, AND YOU'RE GOING TO LIVE TO 90, 54 IS EXACTLY HALFWAY BETWEEN 18 AND 90.

54 MEANS THAT YOU'RE ONLY HALFWAY THROUGH YOUR ADULTHOOD.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T THINK THAT WAY.

AND INSTEAD, IF YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO ONLY LIVE ANOTHER 10 OR 15 YEARS WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO LIVE A LOT LONGER, YOU DON'T SAVE, YOU DON'T INVEST, YOU DON'T PUT TIME IN BECOMING A BEGINNER AGAIN IN SOMETHING.

FRANKLY, YOU MAYBE DON'T CARE OF YOURSELF FROM A WELLNESS PERSPECTIVE.

SO, HELPING PEOPLE TO SEE THAT THE SECOND HALF OF THEIR LIFE CAN BE JUST AS ROBUST OF A TIME OF CURIOSITY AND TRYING NEW THINGS AS THE FIRST HALF OF THEIR LIFE IS PART OF WHAT WE DO AT MEA.

>> Megan: SO, WHAT ARE WE MISSING, AS A SOCIETY, BY NOT TAKING FULL ADVANTAGE OF THIS PART OF OUR LIFE?

>> Conley: FOR ONE, WE HAVE A VERY LOW UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN THE UNITED STATES.

IF ALL OF THIS IMMIGRATION STUFF THAT'S BEEN GOING ON COMES TO PASS, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE AS MANY IMMIGRANTS COMING TO THE UNITED STATES.

THEREFORE, PEOPLE NEED TO WORK LONGER.

THEY NEED TO WORK LONGER BECAUSE THEY'RE LIVING LONGER, BUT ALSO BECAUSE THE ECONOMY NEEDS THEM.

NEEDS US.

I'M 64, AND I DON'T PLAN TO BE RETIRING ANY TIME SOON.

SO, I ALSO THINK THERE'S A LOT TO BE LEARNED FROM THE INTERGENERATIONAL COLLABORATION WE CAN HAVE BETWEEN BOOMERS, GEN-X AND MILLENNIALS AND NOW GEN-Z.

SUCH THAT, A YOUNGER BRAIN TENDS TO BE FAST AND FOCUSED IN HOW THEY LOOK AT THINGS.

AN OLDER BRAIN, AND THIS IS CALLED FLUID INTELLIGENCE, AN OLDER BRAIN HAS CRYSTALLIZED INTELLIGENCE AND TENDS TO THINK MORE SYSTEMICALLY AND CONNECTS THE DOTS.

SO, IF YOU HAVE A TEAM FULL OF BOTH YOUNGER AND OLDER PEOPLE ON IT, YOU'RE MAYBE GETTING THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.

THAT'S WHAT I LEARNED IN MY SEVEN AND A HALF YEARS AT AIRBNB AS THE OLDEST PERSON IN THE COMPANY, AND TWICE THE AGE OF THE AVERAGE PERSON IN THE COMPANY.

SO, I THINK THERE'S A REAL OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO HAVE AN INTERGENERATIONAL POTLUCK WHERE EVERYBODY BRINGS TO THE TABLE WHAT THEY DO BEST.

>> Megan: HAD YOU DO YOU ADDRESS SOME OF THESE ISSUES WITH THE MODERN ELDER ACADEMY?

>> Conley: WELL, WE STARTED WITH OUR CAMPUS IN BAJA ON THE BEACH IN MEXICO.

AND NOW WE HAVE THE CAMPUS HERE IN THE GALISTEO BASIN, ABOUT 25 MINUTES MINUTES FROM THE PLAZA IN SANTA FE.

AND THE PROGRAM REALLY HAS FOUR KEY COMPONENTS TO IT.

ONE IS HOW DO WE NAVIGATE THE TRANSITIONS OF MIDLIFE.

AND WE GO THROUGH A LOT OF THEM.

HOW DO WE CULTIVATE PURPOSE AT ANY AGE.

HOW DO WE LEARN HOW TO OWN OUR WISDOM AND EVEN USE SOME NATIVE AMERICAN TRADITIONS AND CONNECT WITH NATIVE AMERICAN ELDERS TO HELP TEACH US SOME THINGS.

AND FINALLY, HOW DO WE REFRAME OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH AGING.

BECAUSE BECCA LEVY AT YALE HAS SHOWN THAT WHEN YOU SHIFT YOUR MINDSET ON AGING FROM A NEGATIVE TO POSITIVE, YOU GAIN SEVEN AND A HALF YEARS OF ADDITIONAL LIFE.

SO, HAVING A PRO-AGING PERSPECTIVE, MEANING WHAT GETS BETTER WITH AGE, OF COURSE YOUR BODY -- YOUR FACE DOESN'T -- WE WERE TALKING ON THE BREAK BEFORE LIKE, OKAY, WE DON'T LOOK AS GOOD AS WE USED TO.

BUT WE MIGHT BE A LITTLE WISER.

WE MIGHT BE A LITTLE MORE CURIOUS.

WE MIGHT BE BETTER AT EMOTION INTELLIGENCE AND SPIRITUAL CURIOSITY AND WE MAY VALUE OUR RELATIONSHIPS MORE.

WE MAY BE BETTER AT EDITING.

THERE'S ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

I WROTE A BOOK CALLED 'LEARNING TO LOVE MIDLIFE, 12 REASONS WHY LIFE GETS BETTER WITH AGE' BECAUSE I WANTED TO GO OUT AND TALK TO ACADEMICS TO FIND OUT WHAT GETS BETTER WITH AGE BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT DOESN'T GET BETTER WITH AGE.

>> Megan: YOU ALLUDED TO USING SOME -- DRAWING ON NATIVE AMERICAN WISDOM.

DO YOU HAVE NATIVE AMERICAN TEACHERS AT THE ACADEMY?

>> Conley: WE DO.

AND ALSO IN OUR ONLINE PROGRAMS.

SO, WE'VE WORKED WITH NATIVE AMERICAN TEACHERS AND IT'S AN IMPORTANT PART OF BEING IN NEW MEXICO.

IF YOU'RE IN NEW MEXICO AND YOU'RE CALLING YOURSELF AN ELDER ACADEMY, THE MODERN ELDER ACADEMY, AND YOU'RE NOT TAPPING INTO THE ABUNDANT WISDOM OF THE LOCAL COMMUNITY AND SPECIFICALLY THE NATIVE PEOPLE -- AND SOME OF THE NATIVE TRADITIONS.

YOU KNOW, IT'S SO INTERESTING.

BEING ON THE LAND HERE, OUR CAMPUS IN THE GALISTEO BASIN IS ALMOST 2600 ACRES.

SO, LAND WISDOM, UNDERSTANDING LAND, UNDERSTANDING THE WEATHER, THESE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT AMONG MANY THINGS THAT I'VE LEARNED FROM SOME OF OUR NATIVE ELDERS.

>> Megan: WHY DID YOU CHOOSE SANTA FE?

>> Conley: YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS A KID, MY PARENTS -- MY UNCLE WORKED FOR THE NAVAJO NATION.

AND IN WINDOW ROCK, ARIZONA, AT THE CAPITAL OF THE NAVAJO NATION.

SO, OUR FAMILY WOULD GET IN OUR STATION WAGON AND DRIVE TO WINDOW ROCK EVERY SUMMER.

AND THEN WE'D GO TO SANTA FE AFTER THAT.

AND I USED TO SAY TO MY PARENTS, OH, WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT NOW.

PARTLY BECAUSE IT'S CALLED NEW MEXICO, AND PARTLY BECAUSE NEW MEXICO FELT LIKE A DIFFERENT COUNTRY.

SO, I WAS ALWAYS FASCINATED WITH SANTA FE AND NEW MEXICO IN GENERAL.

I USED TO COME HERE ON VACATION.

I LOVED GOING TO WHITE SANDS.

IF I DON'T HAVE THE MONEY OR THE TIME TO GO TO THE SAHARA DESERT, I'LL GO TO THE WHITE SANDS.

AND LOVED OJO CALIENTE, WAY WAY BACK WHEN IT WAS MUCH MORE FUNKY THAN IT IS TODAY.

I LOVE GOING TO LOS POBLANOS AND STAYING THERE AND ENJOYING THAT PLACE.

WHEN WE -- DURING COVID, WE KNEW WE WANTED TO HAVE A U.S.

LOCATION.

I JUST WAS PRETTY CLEAR THAT THIS WAS THE LOCATION THAT WE SHOULD BE IN, IN SANTA FE.

SANTA FE HAS BEEN A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN COMING FOR DECADES, MAYBE EVEN CENTURIES, SEEKING THINGS.

MEA IS DEFINITELY A PLACE WHERE WISDOM SEEKERS COME TOGETHER TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER.

>> Megan: YEAH, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO RETIRE TO NEW MEXICO.

PARTICULARLY, SANTA FE.

YOU'VE HAD CAREERS IN FOREIGN SERVICE, AND BUSINESS, AND SEEM TO BE PRIME FOR WHAT YOU'RE TEACHING AT THE MODERN ELDER ACADEMY TO KEEP GOING WITH THOSE SKILLS.

>> Conley: AND MANY OF THE FACULTY MEMBERS WE HAVE -- OUR FACILITATOR STAFF IS ALL LOCAL.

BY THE WAY, EVERYTHING WE DID IN CONSTRUCTING, ALL THE ARCHITECTS, THE DESIGNERS, THE CONTRACTORS, THE ENGINEERS, ALL LOCAL.

BUT ALL OF OUR FACILITATORS ARE LOCAL.

THEN WE BRING IN GUEST FACULTY.

SOME OF THE GUEST FACULTY IS LOCAL.

JOAN BORYSENKO A LOCAL AND WELL KNOWN AS AN AUTHOR AND NEUROSCIENTIST.

AND WE ALSO BRING IN GUEST FACULTY.

EVERYBODY FROM ELIZABETH GILBERT, 'EAT, PRAY LOVE' TO KRISTA TIPPETT FROM 'ON BEING.'

ARTHUR BROOKS, THE HARVARD PROFESSOR.

RICHARD ROHR, WHO IS A LOCAL, ALBUQUERQUE.

AND MICHAEL FRANTI, THE AWARD-WINNING MUSICIAN, ALL COME IN AND HELP LEAD WORKSHOP WITH US.

>> Megan: YOU HAVE ALLUDED TO THIS, CHIP.

BUT WE NOW HAVE FIVE GENERATIONS IN THE WORKPLACE.

WHAT ARE THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THAT?

>> Conley: WE BETTER LEARN OUR VARIOUS, DIFFERENT COMMUNICATION STYLES.

I LOVE EMAIL, BUT THAT'S PARTLY BECAUSE I'M A BOOMER.

I'M A YOUNG BOOMER.

I GOT TO TELL YOU, WHEN I'M GOING TO A GEN-Z PERSON THEY'RE LIKE I'LL TEXT YOU OR I'LL, YOU KNOW, DIRECT MESSAGE YOU OR WHATEVER.

I'M LIKE OKAY, OKAY.

WE HAVE TO LEARN THAT COMMUNICATION STYLES ARE DIFFERENT.

ALSO NEED TO UNDERSTAND -- I THINK ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS FOR OLDER PEOPLE IN THE WORKPLACE IS TO NEVER START A SENTENCE WITH LET ME TELL YOU HOW THE WORLD WORKS.

OTHERWISE, YOU'LL GET AN OKAY, BOOMER, HAND IN YOUR FACE.

SO, HAVING THAT CURIOSITY ACROSS THE GENERATIONS AND HAVING IT NOT THE OLDER PEOPLE BE CURIOUS ABOUT YOUNGER PEOPLE BUT VICE VERSA IS REALLY AN ESSENTIAL PART OF WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE AN EFFECTIVE INTERGENERATIONAL WORKPLACE.

>> Megan: THERE CAN BE A LOT OF AGEISM IN THE WORKPLACE, AND ALSO RESENTMENT BY YOUNGER WORKERS WHO FEEL THEY'RE FALLING BEHIND ECONOMICALLY.

THEY MAY SEE SOMEONE WHO IS NOT RETIRING AS A BARRIER TO THEIR SUCCESS.

HOW WOULD YOU REFRAME THAT?

>> Conley: WELL, I THINK HERE'S AN INTERESTING STAT THAT THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR SAYS THAT BY THE YEAR 2027 THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS WILL HAVE A YOUNGER BOSS.

SO, IT ISN'T -- I'D SAY 25 YEARS AGO IT WAS TRUE.

IF YOU HAD AN OLDER BOSS AND THEY'RE NOT LEAVING THEIR JOB, IT WAS AN IMPEDIMENT FOR YOUR YOUR CAREER GROWTH.

NOT SO MUCH ANYMORE.

IN FACT, WITHIN TWO YEARS, THE MAJORITY OF US WILL HAVE A YOUNGER BOSS.

I DID WHEN I WAS AT AIRBNB.

I HAD A BOSS WHO I WAS MENTORING WHO WAS 21 YEARS YOUNGER THAN ME.

THE CEO OF THE COMPANY, BRIAN CHESKY.

SO, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN IF WE HAVE WORKERS IN THE WORKPLACE LONGER, THAT THEY'RE NECESSARILY GOING TO BE MANAGING YOUNGER PEOPLE.

IN MANY CASES, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO REPORT TO SOMEONE YOUNGER THAN THEM.

THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY AN OPPORTUNITY WE HAVE BY CREATING SOME MUTUAL MENTORSHIP.

WHEN I WAS AT AIRBNB, I COULD TEACH THE YOUNGER PEOPLE I WAS WORKING WITH A LOT ABOUT EQ, EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE, BUT THEY COULD TEACH ME ABOUT DQ.

I DON'T MEAN DAIRY QUEEN, I MEAN DIGITAL INTELLIGENCE.

AND WE WERE BOTH BETTER OFF FOR THAT.

SO, HAVING A RECOGNITION THAT YOUNGER PEOPLE HAVE A LOT TO OFFER AND IN SOME COMPANIES IF THE COMPANY IS VERY FOCUSED ON THE DIGITAL WORLD, IT IS OFTEN THE CASE THAT YOUNGER PEOPLE TAKE THE JOBS OF OLDER PEOPLE.

OLDER PEOPLE THEN STAY IN THE WORKPLACE REPORTING TO THE YOUNGER PERSON.

>> Megan: NEW MEXICO'S OVER-65 POPULATION IS GROWING FASTER THAN THE REST OF THE NATION.

POLICYMAKERS ARE LOOKING AT THIS AS A POTENTIAL CRISIS.

IS THAT AN ACCURATE CHARACTERIZATION?

>> Conley: I DON'T THINK IT'S A CRISIS AT ALL.

I THINK THE PREMISE BEHIND THE CRISIS IS THAT PEOPLE OVER 65 ARE, BY NATURE, TAKING RESOURCES AS OPPOSED TO GIVING THEM.

YOU KNOW, THE TRUTH IS THAT A LOT OF THE WEALTH OF THE COUNTRY IS WITH PEOPLE 65 AND OLDER.

AND, THEREFORE, A LOT OF THE TAXES THAT ARE PAID ARE PAID BY PEOPLE 65 AND OLDER.

ALSO, I THINK THAT FOR A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE 65 AND OLDER IN SANTA FE AND IN ALBUQUERQUE AND THROUGHOUT THE STATE THEY ARE VERY MUCH STILL IN IT.

THEY MAY WANT TO LIVE HERE AND HAVE A PORTFOLIO LIFE WHERE THEY HAVE MULTIPLE -- YOU KNOW, TWO OR THREE DIFFERENT PART-TIME PIECES OF WORK THEY'RE DOING.

SO, YES, OLDER PEOPLE DO NEED MORE HEALTH RESOURCES.

THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

ESPECIALLY AS WE GET TO 75 AND 85.

I WOULDN'T FRET ABOUT THIS.

I ACTUALLY THINK IT REALLY DOES GIVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO CREATE A MORE INTERGENERATIONAL WORKPLACE AND OFFER MENTORING OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED BEFORE THE FOREIGN SERVICE.

THERE'S LOTS OF PEOPLE IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE WHO ARE RETIRED WHO COULD TEACH SOMEBODY YOUNGER ABOUT THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS, BUT FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE YOUNGER PERSON TEACHING THAT OLDER PERSON SOMETHING AS WELL.

>> Megan: YOU ANTICIPATED MY NEXT QUESTION.

ARE THERE POTENTIAL OPPORTUNITIES?

YOU'VE TOUCHED ON SOME OF THEM.

>> Conley: YEAH, WE HAVE ALMOST 200 ALUMNI IN THE MEA COMMUNITY IN NEW MEXICO WHO ARE NEW MEXICO RESIDENTS.

SO, WHAT WE TRY TO DO WITH OUR MEA ALUMS, WE HAVE ABOUT 7,000 GRADUATES GLOBALLY FROM 60 COUNTRIES.

AND WE HAVE 58 REGIONAL CHAPTERS, ONE OF THEM IS IN NEW MEXICO.

WHAT WE TRY TO DO IS HELP OUR GRADUATES TO BUILD RELATIONSHIPS ACROSS THE GENERATIONS TO LEARN FROM AND TEACH PEOPLE AT SANTA FE PREP, OR AT ST. JOHN'S COLLEGE, OR AT UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.

SO, THE IDEA OF HELPING TO CREATE THE CHANNEL ACROSS THE GENERATIONS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE SORT OF LIVE IN AN ERA OF AGE APARTHEID.

WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THE GENERATIONS ARE QUITE SEPARATE IN TERMS OF HOW THEY INTERACT AND CONNECT.

SO, LEARNING HOW TO CREATE BRIDGES ACROSS THE GENERATIONS IS PRETTY IMPORTANT.

>> Megan: OF COURSE, MANY PEOPLE IN THEIR THIRD ACT OF LIFE MAY WANT TO RETIRE, BUT ECONOMICALLY THEY JUST CAN'T, WHICH CAN BE PRETTY DEPRESSING FOR SOME FOLKS.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM?

>> Conley: I WOULD SAY, WHETHER IT'S BY CHOICE OR NECESSITY, YOU PROBABLY WILL LIVE AND WORK LONGER THAN YOUR PARENTS.

YOU BETTER FIND SOMETHING THAT YOU LOVE DOING.

SO, FOR SOME PEOPLE, PART OF THE REASON THEY ARE EXCITED ABOUT RETIRING IS THEY'RE DOING BACK-BREAKING LABOR.

AND THEY JUST CAN'T DO IT ANYMORE.

THEREFORE, OKAY, WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO?

MAYBE THEY WILL HELP TRAIN AND WHETHER IT'S IN THE TRADES OR WHETHER ITS AS A MASSAGE THERAPIST OR PHYSICAL THERAPIST, SO YOU DON'T WANT TO BE DOING THAT WORK PHYSICALLY ANYMORE, BUT YOU CAN ACTUALLY TRAIN SOMEONE ELSE.

HOW DO WE CREATE MORE TRAINING AND APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAMS TO DO THAT?

AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE ARE WORKING ON RIGHT NOW.

LOOKING AT THAT, THERE'S A GREAT BOOK BY ARTHUR BROOKS WHO IS TEACHING THIS SUMMER AT MEA IN SANTA FE CALLED FROM STRENGTH TO STRENGTH.

WHAT HE SHOWS IS THAT AS WE GET OLDER THE KIND OF PROFESSIONS THAT OPEN UP TO US ARE BEING TEACHERS AND BEING MENTORS AND BEING COACHES AND BEING THERAPISTS.

BECAUSE I DON'T WANT A 25-YEAR-OLD THERAPIST.

I WOULD LIKE A 65-YEAR-OLD OR 75-YEAR-OLD THERAPIST.

SO, THERE ARE CERTAIN QUALITIES THAT WE REALLY PRIZE AND USUALLY WISDOM IS ONE OF THEM.

AND IT'S OFTEN FOUND IN PEOPLE WHO ARE OLDER WHO CAN BE IN A TEACHER KIND OF ROLE.

>> Megan: CHIP CONLEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> Conley: THANK YOU, MEAGAN.

IT'S REALLY GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> Jeff: THANKS TO CHIP CONLEY AND MEAGAN KAMERICK.

STAY WITH NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS FOR MEGAN'S UPCOMING INTERVIEW WITH STATE AGING AND LONG-TERM SERVICES SECRETARY EMILY KALTENBACH.

NOW, LET'S RETURN TO OUR DISCUSSION WITH DR. EVELYN PLUMB, AS LOU ASKS HER TO CONSIDER THE EARLY RESULTS PROJECT ECHO HAS SEEN IN ITS WORK WITH KIDS WHO HAVE HAD ADVERSE CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES.

>> Lou: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE PROGRAM NOW, SPECIFICALLY.

HOW DID THIS PROJECT COME ABOUT?

OBVIOUSLY, IT'S A VERY COMPLEX PROBLEM.

MANY, MANY DIFFERENT FACTORS.

HOW DID IT START WHERE YOU WERE ABLE TO CONCEPTUALIZE IT AND ACTUALLY PUT SOMETHING TOGETHER THAT YOU COULD EXECUTE?

>> Plumb: YEAH, THAT IS A BIG QUESTION.

IT, PERHAPS, WOULD BE BETTER ANSWERED BY ONE OF OUR CO-MEDICAL DIRECTORS WHO WERE THERE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.

I WILL SAY THAT IT WAS NOT COINCIDENTAL THAT THE ACES ECHO LAUNCHED IN -- IT WAS THE FALL OF 2022, AND THAT WAS WHEN THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH RELEASED THE ADVISORY THAT NEW MEXICO HAD THE HIGHEST ACES SCORE IN THE NATION.

AND THE IDEA REALLY WAS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PART OF IT IS JUST WHAT ECHO DOES GENERALLY, WHICH IS HOW CAN WE MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE RESOLVING THAT DILEMMA OF TRANSLATIONAL SCIENCE, WHERE REALLY GOOD RESEARCH AND PRACTICES TENDS TO STAY HOLED UP IN THE UNIVERSITY FOR AROUND 20 YEARS ON AVERAGE, I THINK.

HOW DO WE GET THAT OUT TO THE COMMUNITIES WHERE IT CAN DO GOOD FOR OUR PATIENTS AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE?

AND ANOTHER PART OF IT THAT I THINK IS A LITTLE SUBTLER IS ABOUT CREATING A COMMUNITY OF PRACTICE BETWEEN THE MANY PROVIDERS AND EDUCATORS IN NEW MEXICO.

WE'RE WORKING WITH CHILDREN AND WHO ARE IN A REALLY GREAT POSITION TO BE ABLE TO SCREEN AND INTERVENE FOR ACES BECAUSE IT IS HARD WORK.

AND IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT INFORMATION IS BEST, AND WHERE TO FIND THE BEST PRACTICES.

AND BY CONSOLIDATING THAT AND HAVING A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS AROUND IT, WHICH IS PART OF THE ECHO MODEL IS MAKING SURE IT'S VERY INTERACTIVE, WE ALL GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER AND WE ALL GET TO KNOW MORE ABOUT HOW THIS IS SHOWING UP IN REGIONAL CONTEXTS.

SO, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WHAT WE KNOW FROM ACADEMIC LEARNING ABOUT ACES, IT'S ALSO ABOUT HOW DOES THIS PRESENT IN THESE PARTICULAR AREAS AND THESE PARTICULAR COMMUNITIES.

SO, THERE'S THAT SORT OF BIDIRECTIONAL EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION.

>> Lou: WHERE DOES YOUR SPECIFIC EXPERTISE AS A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST COME IN WITH THIS PROGRAM?

>> Plumb: AS A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, MY SPECIALIZATION IS WITH SUBSTANCE USE DISORDERS.

AND THAT'S REALLY ONE OF THE HALLMARKS OF ACES.

IT'S ONE OF THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOMES OF HIGHER ACES.

SO, A BIG PART OF WHAT I'M ALWAYS HOPING TO DO WITH OUR ECHOES IS TO INTRODUCE INTO THE CONVERSATION SOME ANTI-STIGMA MESSAGES AROUND HOW TO WORK WITH COMMUNITIES WITH SUBSTANCE USE DISORDERS.

AND ALSO PARTICULARLY IN THIS CONTEXT TO EMPHASIZE THAT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ACES AND SUBSTANCE USE DISORDERS BECAUSE I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT OF HELPING OUR PROVIDERS, OUR EDUCATORS, OUR POPULATION IN GENERAL, TO HAVE A MORE EMPATHIC PERSPECTIVE TOWARD PEOPLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING WITH THIS ILLNESS.

>> Lou: WHAT HAVE THE RESULTS BEEN SO FAR?

IS THERE EVIDENCE TO SHOW THIS PROJECT WORKING?

>> Plumb: YES.

YEAH, WE'VE HAD REALLY GREAT RESULTS.

YOU KNOW, BEING A MORE QUALITATIVE PERSON, I ALWAYS ORIENT TOWARD THE QUOTES WE GET IN THE FEEDBACK.

SO, I REALLY APPRECIATE HEARING SO MUCH FROM OUR PROVIDERS ABOUT THEM FEELING MUCH MORE CONFIDENT ABOUT UNDERSTANDING HOW TO INCORPORATE, FOR EXAMPLE, SCREENING FOR ACES, OR HOW TO DO DIFFERENTIAL DIAGNOSES INCLUDING ACES.

ALSO, JUST THEM RETHINKING STRUCTURALLY HOW THEY CAN INCORPORATE THIS INTO THEIR SYSTEMS.

SO, WE HAVE A LOT OF ADMINISTRATORS, BOTH ON THE EDUCATIONAL AND HEALTH CARE SIDE, WHO ATTEND AND SAY I REALIZE THROUGH THIS THAT THERE WAS THIS MISSING LINK IN OUR PROCEDURAL WORK FLOW.

NOW WE CAN INCORPORATE A SCREENING FOR ACE AND WE HAVE SOMEBODY TO FOLLOW UP ON IT, ET CETERA.

BUT, OVERALL, WE DO SEE THE NEEDLE MOVE IN TERMS OF PEOPLE SPECIFICALLY RATING THEIR SENSE OF CONFIDENCE AND WILLING TO USE INTERVENTIONS RELATED TO ACES.

AND THOSE ARE THE METRICS THAT TEND TO BE MOST IMPORTANT FOR US BECAUSE WHY WANT TO MAKE SURE ALL OF THIS IS ACTIONABLE.

>> Lou: OKAY.

NOW, YOU MENTIONED IT BRIEFLY THERE, BUT CAN YOU THINK OF A SPECIFIC PATIENT'S EXPERIENCE WITHOUT IDENTIFYING THEM, OBVIOUSLY, THAT EITHER STUCK WITH YOU OR WORKED OUT IN A WAY THAT THIS PROGRAM WAS DESIGNED?

>> Plumb: OH, YEAH.

A LOT.

ONE THAT WE'VE DISCUSSED BEFORE BECAUSE IT WAS REALLY MEMORABLE FOR ALL INVOLVED, WHERE THERE WAS A PATIENT WHO WAS, YOU KNOW, BARELY ADOLESCENT.

AROUND 14 YEARS OLD.

AND WHO HAD A CHILD.

AND SHE IS JUST ONE OF THESE CASES THAT WE OFTEN SEE ON THIS ECHO WHERE THEY SORT OF SLIP BETWEEN THESE BUREAUCRATIC CRACKS.

WHERE SHE WAS TOO YOUNG FOR A WOMEN'S SHELTER, BUT SHE WAS TOO OLD FOR THE TRADITIONAL SERVICES FOR A CHILD.

AND BECAUSE SHE HAD A BABY HERSELF SHE WASN'T ABLE TO ACCESS THOSE.

SO, EVEN THOUGH IT WASN'T THAT WE HAD A READY ANSWER RIGHT THERE DURING THE PRESENTATION, THIS WAS ONE OF THOSE CASES WHERE EVERYBODY, NOT JUST THE HUM TEAM, BUT THE PARTICIPANTS TOO REALLY RALLIED AND EMAILED THEIR CONTACTS AND FIGURED OUT RESOURCES THAT WERE SPECIFIC TO THIS PATIENT TO MAKE SURE SHE WAS GOING TO BE TAKEN CARE OF, EVEN THOUGH SHE DIDN'T FIT INTO ANY OF THESE NEAT BOXES WHERE HERE PROVIDER WOULD BE ABLE TO SEND HER, OH, IT MAKES SENSE TO PUT YOU HERE.

IN THAT WAY, THAT'S THE CASE WHERE WE'RE NOT JUST DISRUPTING THE CYCLE OF ACES FOR HER, WE'RE ALSO POTENTIALLY HELPING HER TO DISRUPT THAT CYCLE OF TRANSMISSION TO HER CHILD, WHO NOW PRESUMABLY IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO BE RAISED IN A MUCH MORE STABLE ENVIRONMENT THAN SHE OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE.

>> Lou: FOR SOMEBODY WATCHING WHO MIGHT HAVE HEARD THE EXPLANATION OF WHAT THESE ACES ARE AND THEY LOOK BACK AT THEIR CHILDHOOD AND THINK, MAN, MAYBE I FALL INTO THIS.

WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU TO IDENTIFY WHAT'S GOING ON WITHIN THEMSELVES SO THEY CAN RAISE THEIR CHILD BETTER THAN THEY MAYBE WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE?

>> Plumb: YEAH, I REALLY APPRECIATE THIS QUESTION.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S MOST INSPIRING ABOUT WORKING WITH THIS POPULATION IS HOW HARD PARENTS WORK TO MAKE THE LIVES OF THEIR CHILDREN BETTER THAN THEIR OWN WERE.

SO, I REALLY SEE PARENTS VERY MOTIVATED TO DO THIS.

I WILL SAY THERE'S A GREAT RESOURCE FROM DR. NADINE BURKE HARRIS WHO IS THE FORMER SURGEON GENERAL OF CALIFORNIA WHO POPULARIZED ACES SCREENING.

SO, THERE'S A WEBSITE CALLED NUMBERS STORY WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF CONCRETE RESOURCES THAT PARENTS CAN LOOK AT THAT HAVE TO DO WITH CLINICAL INTERVENTIONS AND BROADER LIFESTYLE INTERVENTION.

BUT THE BIGGER IDEA HERE IS REALLY ABOUT HOW PARENTS CAN -- IT SOUNDS A LITTLE BIT CORNY, BUT HOW PARENTS CAN HEAL THEMSELVES IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT THEIR CHILDREN DON'T NEED TO HEAL FROM THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES.

SO, A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THE ACES THEY THINK ARE VERY USEFUL IN TERMS OF PUTTING INTO CONTEXT FOR PEOPLE.

THIS WAS A REAL THING THAT HAPPENED TO ME, AND IT MAKES SENSE THAT I REALLY SUFFERED FROM IT BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE COME FROM CULTURES OF STOICISM OR OTHER CONTEXTS WHERE THEY'VE BEEN TOLD IT'S NOT OKAY TO FEEL BADLY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU.

SO, I THINK THE VALIDATION IS THE FIRST PART.

AND THAT'S PART OF JUST USING THE INSTRUMENT.

AND BEING ABLE TO TALK ABOUT IT THROUGH, YOU KNOW, IDEALLY WITH A PROVIDER, BUT IT COULD ALSO BE WITH A TRUSTED FRIEND OR FAMILY MEMBER.

AND MAKING SENSE OF WHAT THOSE ACES HAVE MEANT FOR YOU AND HOW YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR OWN STORY.

BECAUSE THE INTENTIONALITY IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF IT.

SIMPLY UNDERSTANDING HOW IT'S IMPACTED OUR PHYSIOLOGY SO WE CAN CHOOSE WHAT'S GOING TO BE RIGHT FOR ME TO FEEL MORE CALM, MORE AT EASE, HOW CAN I START TO BRING DOWN MY OWN PROLONGED STRESS RESPONSE, SO MY CHILD GETS TO ENGAGE WITH A CAREGIVER WHO IS RELAXED AND AT EASE AND REALLY JUST ENJOYING BEING PRESENT WITH THEM.

>> Lou: WHAT IS THE PROJECT'S ULTIMATE GOAL?

IS THERE A TIMELINE FOR HITTING SPECIFIC DATA MARKERS?

OR THIS IS MORE OF JUST A CONSISTENT CONCERTED EFFORT TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES AND BRING DOWN THOSE TOTALS?

>> Plumb: YEAH, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

IF THERE IS A REALLY CONCRETE ANSWER TO IT, I DON'T KNOW THAT.

IT MIGHT BE OUT OF MY PAY GRADE.

WHAT I WOULD SAY IS WE SURE WOULD LOVE TO THINK THAT IN JUST A FEW YEARS ALL THE PROVIDERS AND EDUCATORS IN NEW MEXICO WILL HAVE ALL OF THE TOOLS THEY NEED AND WILL HAVE WORKED OURSELVES OUT OF A JOB.

FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN SO FAR, THERE'S JUST A REAL HUNGER FOR THIS MATERIAL, SO I DON'T SEE THAT HAPPENING IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE.

BUT PART OF IT TOO IS THAT OUR CURRICULUM IS DESIGNED TO BE LAYERED, SO WE DON'T DO THE SAME CURRICULUM EVERY YEAR.

WE REALLY EXPAND AND ADD AND ADJUST BASED ON WHAT FEEDBACK WE'VE GOTTEN, AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE COUNTRY CLIMATE IN TERMS OF WHAT'S GOING TO BE MOST RELEVANT FOR PROVIDERS.

SO, THE GRIM PART OF IS THAT THERE'S ALWAYS MORE TO DO AROUND ACES, BUT I THINK THE UPSIDE IS WE HAVE SUCH AN EXTRAORDINARY COMMUNITY OF PROVIDERS AND EDUCATORS IN NEW MEXICO THAT ARE VERY READY AND VERY WILLING TO LEARN.

AND THEY SEEM TO HAVE QUITE AN APPETITE FOR THE MATERIAL WE HAVE TO OFFER.

>> Lou: GREAT.

DR. EVELYN PLUMB, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Plumb: THANK YOU, LOU.

>> Jeff: THANKS TO LOU AND DR. PLUMB.

AND THANKS TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THE SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

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