>> Cathy: EARLIER THIS MONTH A NEW YORK TIMES INVESTIGATION OUTED MINNEAPOLIS BASED ALLINA HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS DENYING NON-EMERGENCY HEALTH CARE TO PATIENTS WITH UNPAID MEDICAL BILLS.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF THAT STORY ALLINA PAUSED THE PRACTICE.

STAR TRIBUNE REPORTER JEREMY OLSON STARTED FOLLOWING THE STORY EARLY ON AND DISCOVERED ALLINA WAS NOT THE ONLY MINNESOTA HEALTH CARE SYSTEM CUTTING OFF NON-EMERGENCY CARE TO PATIENTS WITH UNPAID BILLS.

LAST WEEK HE INTRODUCED READERS TO A GLENCOE WOMAN DURING THE END OF HER PREGNANCY SLATED TO LOSE MEDICAL CARE SHORTLY AFTER THE BIRTH.

JEREMY JOINS ME NOW.

I KNOW HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS CAN BE PRETTY AGGRESSIVE IN TRYING TO GET THEIR MONEY.

HOW DOES ALLINA'S POLICY STACK UP WITH OTHERS THAT YOU KNOW OF?

>> WELL, IT'S REAL HIT AND MISS.

SOME HOSPITAL SYSTEMS USE THESE KIND OF POLICIES WHERE THEY'LL CUT OFF ACCESS TO CLINICS, OTHERS DON'T.

MAYO CLINIC DOES.

HEALTHPARTNERS DOES.

AND OBVIOUSLY GLENCOE REGIONAL HEALTH DOES.

YOU KNOW, SMALL HOSPITALS THAT ARE INDEPENDENT, THEY DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES OF A MAYO OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND SOMETIMES THEY'RE SQUEEZED FOR DOLLARS AND THEY IMPLEMENT THESE KIND OF POLICIES AS MUCH AS THE BIG GUYS.

>> Cathy: ISN'T THIS MEDICALLY UNETHICAL TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

>> WELL, IT'S INTERESTING, MINNESOTANS HAVE EXTRA PROTECTION, THERE USED TO BE PROBLEMS WITH BILLING IN THE PAST AND THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED THE HOSPITAL AGREEMENT AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL PUT IT IN PLACES ITH HOSPITALS AND THE HOSPITALS AGREED TO NOT DO UNETHICAL BILL PRACTICES.

WELL, THE QUESTION IS IS THIS AN NETHICAL PRACTICE TO DENY ACCESS TO CARE FOR MONEY LOSERS FOR THE HOSPITAL?

>> Eric: WHEN ALLINA SAYS PAUSING THE PRACTICE, WHAT DO YOU TAKE THAT TO MEAN?

>> WELL, IT MEANS THEY ARE GOING TO ALLOW PATIENTS TO CONTINUE TO RECEIVE AND MAKE APPOINTMENTS, RECEIVE NON-EMERGENCY CLINICAL CARE WHILE THEY CONSIDER WHAT TO DO NEXT.

>> Eric: AFTER THE PUBLICITY DIES DOWN ARE THEY BACK AT IT?

>> WELL, THE FACT THEY'RE NOT OUT THERE ALL ON THEIR LONESOME MEANS THEY MIGHT LOOK AT INSTITUTING POLICIES LIKE THIS.

THE FACT IS A LOT OF OUR HOSPITALS WERE IN THE BLACK PRIOR TO HE PANDEMIC BUT FINANCES GETTING LEANER AND A LOT OF THEM ARE IN THE RED NOW AND THEY CAN'T AFFORD AS MUCH DEBT AS IN THE PAST AND THEY MAY BE LOOKING FOR WAYS TO CUT COSTS.

WHETHER THIS IS HE RIGHT WAY THAT'S AN OPEN QUESTION.

>> Cathy: I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING IN YOUR PIECE THERE'S LIKE A STEP BY STEP PROCESS FOR CUTTING OFF PATIENTS THAT ALLINA WORKERS GO THROUGH INCLUDING DOCTORS.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> YEAH, IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THREE INCIDENTS OF A PATIENT NOT PAYING $1,500 OR ACCRUING $1,500 IN UNPAID BILLS AND THEY SAY EACH TIME THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT 20 NOTICES INCLUDING DOCTORS, PHONE CALLS FROM THE BILLING DEPARTMENT BEFORE THEY TAKE THIS STEP AND EACH EVIDENCE INCIDENT.

SO THEY FEEL ATHEY EXHAUSTED THEIR EFFORTS BEFORE THEY TAKE THIS FINAL STEP.

>> Eric: SO IN GLENCOE, I MEAN, THE COVERAGE HAPPENED AND THEN MONEY CAME IN?

I MEAN THAT'S A PRETTY SAD WAY TO RUN A HEALTH SYSTEM, I MEAN, ALL DUE RESPECT.

>> YEAH, AND WELL TO BE HONEST I DON'T KNOW GLENCOE HAS RESCINDED ITS POLICY BUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THAT WOMAN WHO HAS HAD A GOOD WEEK SHE GAVE BIRTH ON THURSDAY TO A BABY BOY, AND AS A BABY SHOWER GIFT DONATIONS FROM ACROSS INNESOTA CAME.

SHE HAD ABOUT $4,100 IN DEBT AND THAT WAS CAUSING HER TO POTENTIALLY LOSE ACCESS TO HER DOCTORS AFTER BIRTH.

PEOPLE CALLED IN AND DONATED THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO NOT ONLY COVER THAT DEBT BUT THE OTHER DEBTS THAT HAD PUT HER AFAMILY IN BANKRUPTCY SO THEY'RE OFF TO A GOOD START AFTER HAVING A ROUGH GO OF IT.

>> Cathy: WE SHOULD SAY THE HOSPITALS DO HAVE FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS, SO WHERE DOES THAT COME INTO ALL THIS?

>> IT'S A COMPLICATED THING BECAUSE HOSPITALS HAVE CHARITY CARE AND THEY HAVE BAD DEBT AND SOMETIMES IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU KNEW TO ASK FOR IT OR CIRCUMSTANCES.

PEOPLE WHO ARE LOW INCOME CAN GET CHARITY CARE IF THEY ASK FOR IT, IF THEY QUALIFY FOR IT OR IF DOCTORS THINK THEY HAVE A CERTAIN KIND OF CARE THEY NEED THAT THEY CAN'T GET ELSEWHERE.

IF THEY DON'T ASK FOR IT, THEY JUST ACCRUE BILLS AND GET SCARED AND STOP PAYING OR STOP TALKING TO THEIR DOCTOR ABOUT IT THEN THAT GETS WRITTEN OFF AS BAD DEBT AND THAT'S THE KIND OF MONEY THE HOSPITALS GO AFTER.

CHARITY CARE IS THE GOOD BUCKET, BAD DEBT IS THE BAD BUCKET AND OW YOU END UP IN ONE OR THE OTHER SOMETIMES IS RANDOM.

>> Cathy: INTERESTING TO SEE THAT ALSO THERE ARE WAYS TO GET CARE IN SPITE OF THE UNPAID BILLS BUT THEY'RE NOT GREAT.

YOU CAN DECLARE BANKRUPTCY AND HOSPITALS HAVE THEIR OWN LOAN PROGRAM, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> WELL, THESE KIND OF DEBT COLLECTION PRACTICES AND DENIAL OF CARE IF YOU DECLARE BANKRUPTCY THAT ENDS THAT, I MEAN, YOU CAN'T COLLECT A BILL ONCE SOMEONE HAS THE BANKRUPTCY PROTECTION SO THE ATTORNEY FOR THIS PARTICULAR WOMAN, STEPHANIE, SHE'S DONE THAT WITH OTHER CLIENTS AGAINST MAYO WHEN MAYO WAS CLAMPING DOWN SHE HAD HER PATIENTS OR CLIENTS IN THAT CASE DECLARE BANKRUPTCY AND RETAINED ACCESS TO CAREGIVERS.

>> Eric: ATTORNEY GENERAL ELLISON IS IN THE GAME LOOKING FOR FOLKS TO COME FORWARD WITH THEIR STORIES SO I SUPPOSE WE'LL SEE THIS FURTHER DOWN THE LINE, HUH?

>> YEAH, YEAH, HE'S ABSOLUTELY COLLECTING STORIES FROM PEOPLE AND IT REMAINS TO BE THIS OPEN QUESTION, IS DENYING CARE AN UNETHICAL BILLING PRACTICE?

IT HASN'T BEEN ENCOUNTERED BEFORE, LITIGATED OR EBATED BEFORE SO HERE WE ARE.

>> Eric: WE KNO