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- And now the Cascade PBS Ideas Festival featuring journalists, newsmakers and innovators from around the country in conversation about the issues making headlines.

Thank you for joining us for Hear Me Out Living History with Heather Cox Richardson, moderated by Celeste Headley.

Before we begin, a special thank you to our session sponsor, the Associates Law Group.

We'd also like to thank our stage sponsor, BECU, and our founding sponsor, the Care and Linda Inger Foundation.

Finally, thank you to our host sponsor, Amazon.

- Hello everyone and welcome to the Cascade PBS Ideas Festival.

I'm Celeste Hadley.

I'm the host of Hear Me Out, a podcast from Slate.

You are joining us for a historic moment.

It is our first ever live show.

So first things first, I wanna thank you all so much for being here with us.

If you're unfamiliar with our show, hear Me Out is Slate's Destination for Tough Topical Conversations.

We bring you guests with hot takes and potentially unpopular opinions, and we talk through them without yelling at each other or calling each other names.

It's all in the name of a free, open dialogue that makes us all a little bit smarter.

Now, as the November election draws closer, the specter of Donald Trump looms large over this country.

But while this situation, the prospect of a convicted criminal securing a party nomination and maybe the White House that's unprecedented, the ideas fueling the MAGA movement are decidedly not their roots reach back to the very earliest days of this country.

And so we're gonna talk to a guest whose specialty is those roots.

Our guest's most recent book is Democracy Awakening Notes on the State of America.

And it traces those roots weaving from the vision of the founders to the polarization of today.

And so please, a big welcome to our guest, historian and author Heather Cox Richardson.

- Thank you so much.

It's a real pleasure to be here.

- So first, for those who don't know your books or your newsletter, tell us who you are and what you do.

- My name is Heather Cox Richardson.

I'm an American historian and I study the patterns in our society.

I'm an idealist, which means that I believe Ideas change society and I write a nightly newsletter that tries to look back at the present from 150 years from now and see what are the things that happened in our history in this moment that will continue to matter in the future.

- So let's start with your opinion in a couple sentences.

What is your view you bring us today?

- So this is so much fun.

I thought about like the Oxford comma.

Nothing is more important, right?

Or maybe how Thomas Jefferson is our best president ever.

That's a joke.

I'm always, I'm always, I'm always picking on him.

But I think what I would like to bring to the table today is that throughout our history, we have had an ongoing fight between two principles.

One is the idea that some people are better than others and have the right to rule.

And the other is that we are all created equal and we have a right to a say in our government and a right to be treated equally before the law.

- Okay.

- Unless you'd rather do the Oxford comma.

- I don't think we could argue about the Oxford comma because everyone agrees.

There - You go.

- Do you mean peop some people are born better than others, IE monarchy or some people are better than others because they have a billion dollars.

- Yes.

So what I'm suggesting is that buried within our concept of American democracy in the period of the founders and the framers, the people who wrote the Declaration of Independence and the people who wrote the Constitution was buried within that concept of democracy.

The idea that certain people, in their case thinking them white men of property were better than women, indigenous Americans, people of color, black Americans, enslaved people, and that they had a right to rule.

But within that idea of democracy, what they put in the Declaration of Independence was also the principle that all people are created equal and have a right to a say in their government.

And that is the central tension of our country and one that I think we're struggling with right now as we try to make decisions going forward in 2024.

- So I, I would argue that maybe the founders didn't actually mean that when they said everyone, I mean they clearly didn't mean people of color.

They clearly didn't mean women.

And what they put forward in both the de the Declaration and in the Constitution, and then the later in the Bill of Rights was a very thinly veiled way to keep power out of the hands of the masses and protect property.

- Well, okay, so the Constitution is property.

The declaration is principles, but I think we're arguing the same point.

So we're gonna have to back up on this one because, you know, I think what we're looking at is that if you think about the way we think today about American history, right?

We have some people saying it is the best thing since sliced bread.

Nothing has ever gone wrong.

You know, anybody, you know, occasionally you had some people acting poorly, but that was a blip.

Generally they were corrected by their neighbors.

And then we have other people saying, you know, actually it's never worked.

Democracy has never worked.

And what I'm suggesting is that buried within our concept of American democracy from the very beginning have been those two themes on the one hand that yes, some people are better than others either because of their race or their wealth or their gender, and have the right and maybe the duty to rule over everybody else.

And on the other hand, the fact that the principles that they put in those documents suggested that there was room for a multicultural democracy to grow.

And that what we're looking at in this moment is the conflict between those two things.

And which one of them is going to win in this moment and perhaps be able to redefine democracy looking backward as either a period of, you know, a few people getting to rule over everybody else, or a one in which the, the principles embedded in the Declaration of Independence expand to include more and more people.

- You're a historian looking backward.

'cause I'd really like to know the answer to that question.

Which one's gonna win?

My question would be, did they mean for it to ever be a true representative democracy?

I mean, was the audience expected to read one thing in let's say the Constitution, whereas those who created it were actually creating a very different actionable plan?

- Absolutely not.

Because they're, they're, they are, the founders of the Declaration of Independence are writing a set of principles that are explaining why they should have the same rights as their peers in the mother country.

Right?

They're not thinking about the women and they're certainly not thinking about indigenous Americans and enslaved people.

So that I think is a central tension.

We have these principles that say everybody is created equal and has a right to a say in their government that's in the Declaration of Independence.

- Right?

- Which is us.

- Right?

- But so if you look at it that way, and then you look at the Constitution which says the, the meaning of government is to protect property that also says just us, - Right?

- So how do you get from that to a country where you and I are sitting on this stage talking about this?

- Okay, so I am a black Jewish female and it's difficult for me to look at the founding documents and think any of that was in there for my benefit.

Because - It wasn't.

It wasn't.

- But on the other hand, you have a lot of people in the United States who believe in fact our, our White House spokesman said that the Constitution is sacrosanct.

He used that word that this is the document that has kept us free for over 200 years and that that is the best constitution in the world.

What you're implying is that it maybe isn't the best constitution in the world - If, if you think about the modern White House, Joe Biden's an institutionalist.

And what the Constitution does is it creates a framework of laws.

It literally says we are a nation of laws.

Yes.

And that's hugely important because that does go back to the declaration, which is that which says everybody has a right to be treated equally before the law.

And again, everybody was defined really small, right?

So, so, but also - When in our, in American history, has everyone actually been treated equally - Under the law?

Never.

So this is why I started - Here, - Because because isn't that the question?

Yeah.

Like which are we, are we, the idea that we are all created equal and we have a right to be treated equally before the law and to have a right to a say in our government, which is under attack right now, pretty widely both, that we should be treated equally before the law because like occasionally that doesn't happen.

You know?

And at the same time, the idea that we have a right to a say in our government, and you know, if you're looking at the laws right now, we are in deep dodo - In certain show, certain places.

- Yeah.

But I don't swear.

Oh, - I do.

- So you could say that and it would not be untrue.

And there are a lot of people who think that, and yet we are in a, in a, and I'm gonna say it, we're in a war right now for the idea that it is possible to be in this country and to believe in a history of multicultural, multiracial, multi-gender democracy, which is our story.

If they are both in intention and we have had them forever, which is the one that's gonna win this year.

- I don't think we've had the second one ever.

- We, we - Haven't.

Well, so, but - So do we give up on - It?

No, but the question for me is if it is true that, that whether they intended the America to be a, a truly represented democracy or not, as far as they were concerned, all white dudes were supposed to be equal.

Let, let's give them that latitude - Unless they didn't have any money.

- Right?

But let's say that they actually believed they all should have every opportunity to be billionaires, right?

Americans firmly believe, despite all evidence that you can go from ranks to riches.

You can't.

But statistically speaking, Americans are, are more likely than any other nationality to believe they can, - To believe they can.

Yes.

To - Believe they can.

So let's say that the founders wrote the founding documents with that in mind, that everybody could someday be one of the elites that the documents aren't, aren't working, right?

I mean, if that's what they intended, that's not what we have.

So they're not working.

Is it the fault of the founders or is it the fault of the way that we have used those documents?

- Okay, now I'm gonna push back on you.

I actually, this a tension.

This is, there isn't a right answer here, but it's a really important tension.

And that's that if they're not working, and by the way, I think I would say that, that we could probably both identify many ways in which they have never worked.

Yes.

Why are you and I on this stage?

Because as far as until 1920, neither one of us could have had a vote until 1973.

Neither one of us would've had any kind of control over our reproductive rights.

You know, we wouldn't have been able to get educations, we couldn't get a credit card until the 1970s.

So if it doesn't work, you and I have been wicked lucky.

- Yeah.

Except that, no, it's still not working.

To say that there has been some progress doesn't mean that we've, we've achieved progress.

You and I are still being paid far less than our male counterparts.

I think it wasn't until I was in my forties that I actually got the same pay as a guy making the same, doing the same work that I did.

And that has now changed the other way because of the pandemic as a person of color, no matter what level of education and achievement I have, I'm gonna get worse.

Healthcare, I'm gonna pay more in interest on my house loan, all of those things.

So to say that we've come further than 1776 is an incredibly low bar.

I think that if the, I think if the intention of the founders, and again, I I wanna give them the biggest benefit of the doubt I can, the largest grain of salt.

If their intention was to create that kind of country, the one that they described in the declaration, in the Constitution, especially then - Gimme the declaration because the Constitution is - Okay, yeah, I know the constitution goes into property, so let's stay with the declaration.

Let's - Do the declaration.

- Let's be super idealistic.

If that was their intention, I would say they failed.

- We're almost two.

- She says, we failed.

And this is my question for you, is that, was it the failure of the documents or our failure to amend them as time changed or as we learned better?

- So I'm gonna, I I I do wanna point out that was 250 years ago and they are just documents.

And this is one of the, - They're sacrosanct.

- Well, I didn't say that.

I didn't say that, I do, but I do think the concept of the rule of law is sacrosanct.

And the, the Constitution, I am a big believer in amending the Constitution.

But the 14th amendment is, that is sacrosanct the 14th amendment that says that everybody has to be treated equally before the law is, is, is gospel.

The fact that it has not been honored in our past is a problem.

So that goes back to where I started.

Are we a nation that really believes what was in that very problematic document that says, we're all created equally and we have a right to be treated equally before the law and of a say in our government?

Or are we a nation that says, well those are very nice words, but really a few white guys should run - Everything.

One of the ways that politicians are able to mobilize voters is when they're passing a tax cut, for example, that, or supporting a tax cut that benefits only wealthy people.

They play into people's belief that they might someday be wealthy.

And this goes to like, who thinks they're better than others?

I I would argue that a lot of people who support all of these laws and all of these programs that not only don't benefit them, but actively harm them, believe they are going to someday be in that group.

Right.

I mean, if they didn't believe that, it'd be very hard to understand why people would vote against their own best interests.

So often, you know, people who are really, really anti welfare, not realizing that the largest consumers of welfare are poor white people, women who oppose affirmative action, not realizing that the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action are white women.

Right.

If people that some of that I think is just a lack of knowledge, not realizing that that's true.

But I think also there's people who support that type of structure in government that those kind of legislation because they think that's there's the chance, it's the American dream.

Right?

- I think that you're, I think you're correct, but I would suggest that, that what you are describing is the mobilization of a population based on a narrative that offers them the idea that they too are better than those other people who aren't gonna work hard for a living.

What you're, who aren't gonna rise, who aren't gonna do anything.

So even though they are not somebody that I think by most metrics would be considered elite, you have just said they wanna be part of that minority that can rule over the rest of us who, you know, want the schools and roads and hospitals.

But, - But for me, that's their definition of America.

That definition of America.

A place where you can become one of the people who gets to Buy social media companies and start banning people that, that idea is their definition of America, right?

Like that's what they love the most.

They may also buy into the whole liberty and freedom thing, but for of those people, the number one thing they like right?

Is freedom.

Right?

In past years it would've been state's rights, autonomy and, and self the individual and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.

Maybe when we're talking about the definition of what is gonna win out, I think for a lot of people that one wins because they think that's the most important.

- Would you say then, do you think that that, I would say that that then feeds into the idea that certain people are better than others.

- Exactly.

- And that therefore, that in fact we don't wanna have a multicultural democracy, which is majority rule.

We wanna have minority rule, which takes us right back to the, the, the negative side of the founding fathers.

- Right?

But the, the question I think that we're talking about is what is going to be the America's story?

What has been America's story and what will be America's story going forward?

Okay.

And I don't think we ever have had you and I agree, at least we agree on that.

We've never had what was described in the Declaration of Independence, not for everybody.

And I think that there are a large percentage of Americans agree with them or don't.

Who, if you get down to brass tacks, don't want that.

- Don't want that.

Okay.

This is where we should have started.

Because the real interesting thing for me is if that's the case, how do you get, how do you convince a population?

And in fact, we know statistically that 80% of us, for example, want common gun, common sense gun safety legislation.

And more than, more than 70% of us want the, the ratification of Roe v Wade into law.

And we want these things that are really popular.

But how do we convince people that the story of America is not the story of minority rule in the imposition of religion, race, property, whatever, on the rest of us.

And that this in fact is our history.

The idea of a multicultural, multiracial, racial, multi-gender democracy.

Which in fact, if you look at our history, you look at the civil rights movements, you look at the Civil War, you look at World War ii, you look at, you know, the, the Lakota wars.

You look at any of these, these moments in our history that have expanded democracy, I look at them and what I see is the, the popular recognition of the fact that democracy is always a work in progress.

It is never done.

And what makes the difference between minority rule and majority rule the negative and the positive sides, if you will, is human agency people stepping up to the plate and saying, God dammit, I do swear this is the country I wanna live in.

I mean, isn't that the central, is democracy still viable?

- I mean, we've never had it.

- So do we give it up?

- I don't, do we give up the dream of it?

Of course not.

I think back to how far my own family has come, and that's a hopeful story for democracy.

On the other hand, I now think forward to what would my great-grandmother think about where we still are?

And that's not as hopeful a story for democracy.

So do we give it up?

I don't think we ever can.

I mean, to give up on democracy to me as to give up on humankind.

And it's not a, that's not a possibility.

- So what gives you hope?

- My dog, what gives me hope?

What gives me hope is the fact that the majority of people, the vast majority of people are good.

The vast majority of people, if you drop stuff, they will lean over and pick it up.

If you're walking down the grocery aisle, they will step aside and say, excuse me, the majority of people are good and wanna help.

And I that is true.

I don't care who you voted for, politics gets us all screwed up.

But I truly believe that one-on-one person to person, the vast majority of people on the planet don't wanna hurt anybody.

Sadly, things go awry.

I do believe dogs are better than people, but I also still believe in people.

So for you, you, I mean you covered a part of our history, which is fraught.

- What gives me hope.

Yeah.

What gives me hope like you is people and the belief that human beings want to determine their own futures.

I believe in human self-determination.

And I believe that democracy as extraordinarily flawed as it is, is the system of government most likely to give that opportunity to the most people.

And I do not believe people will voluntarily give it up, at least in the United States of America, which is the only place I study.

So I believe ultimately the search for democracy is the search for humanity.

- We have always underestimated when someone, when we can laugh at someone, we don't take them seriously.

And this is not political, you're gonna hear it however you like.

I'm an independent, but I will say we have always underestimated clowns.

And people who are ridiculous are often deadly serious.

And I think that's where we are now.

The other reason I think that we're here is that we have become, we have returned to a part of our nature, which is evolutionary, which is the part of our nature which is defensive, which is driven by our amygdala and threat and fear.

And we now demonize literally anyone who doesn't vote the way that we vote.

One of the reasons why your newsletter, for example, I, my opinion is so wildly popular, how many people read?

I think because you have this gift, first of all, for not speaking like an academic, you speak plain language and you give us context.

You help us see the things that are unprecedented and unprecedented and what that means.

And in a certain way, as, as serious as the things you're talking about are, it makes me comforted that we've in some cases been through this before and you often give me hope for democracy because it's like, well it weathered that.

Maybe it could weather this too.

But you started this conversation by saying that we're at war, and I know you're a historian and you don't use words loosely, which means that this question you have posed, you think the answer could lead to conflict, like real conflict.

- Oh, well, yes, but I wanna be really clear.

I think we already are in conflict and, and, and I'm gonna say a couple of different things there.

We have unprecedented numbers of guns in our streets, and people are dying in huge numbers every day.

And you know, we're so inured to it.

We, we, it doesn't hit the news every day.

But one of the things that always jumps out to me is if you look at the 1880s, people struck all the time and, and did people's diaries didn't say, oh my God, there was another strike.

Because everybody was just striking.

And nowadays, again, I always try and look back as if I'm looking, I'm 150 years on, I actually have somebody I imagine out there.

She's a graduate student and she needs, that's why I try and write every night, because if you've ever tried to do research, as I'm sure you know now, there is nothing worse than going to the source that's always there for you and saying, what did he have to say about, you know, chancellor's avail?

And you get there and he's like, ah, took the day off.

And you're like, no, - No.

- But if anybody from 150 years looks back at this moment in the United States of America and they will look at the numbers of guns in our streets and the number of people dying from mass shootings and go, what the hell were they thinking?

And so there is that, there is that level of violence.

But I think the war that we are in and, and I am not using that term loosely, is a war of ideas.

And again, I'm an idealist, but it's a war, I think between those two principles.

And it is not limited to the United States of America.

There is a struggle globally between the ideas that some people are better than others and have the right to rule over the their people and perhaps other peoples.

And those of us who are standing on the side of the idea that we are all created equal and have a right to be treated equally before the law and to have a say in our government.

And as we are, I think increasingly aware that it's happening in the United States of America.

But once we finally wake up to the fact that this is actually a struggle going on globally, it will be a very good thing for us to recognize and to put some muscle into it.

- On that note, we are officially out of time and I wanna say thank you to Heather Cox Richardson.

Thank you so much for joining.

- Thank you for having me.