>> THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS A PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL PRODUCTION.

>> FIND THE DEFENDANT GUILTY.

>> THREE COUNTS, MURDER AND MANSLAUGHTER.

THREE VERDICTS OF GUILTY FOR THE FORMER MINNEAPOLIS POLICE OFFICER NOW BEHIND BARS FOR THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

THE VERDICTS SPARKED IMMEDIATE REACTION FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> TODAY WE FEEL A SIGH OF RELIEF.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE] >> IN MILWAUKEE, CELEBRATION AS WELL AS RESOLVE.

RESOLVE TO USE THE GUILTY VERDICT TO SPEARHEAD MEANINGFUL POLICE REFORM, EVEN AS STATE LAWMAKERS ACKNOWLEDGE THE PROGRESS THIS WEEK REPRESENTS.

>> ON BEHALF OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN S ALL OVER THIS STATE, THE VERDICT YESTERDAY WAS A WIN.

>> I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.

TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW," THE MEANING AND FUTURE IMPLICATIONS OF THE HISTORIC COURT DECISION ON THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

A NATIONAL EXPERT ON POLICE REFORM IS HERE.

SO IS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR LM.

AND WE'LL HEAR FROM THE CO-CHAIR OF THE ASSEMBLY TASK FORCE ON RACE, REPRESENTATIVE SHEILA STUBBS.

IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR APRIL 23 >> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS WISCONSIN.

>> ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN THE MOMENTS AFTER THE GUILTY VERDICT S WERE READ, PEOPLE TOOK TO THE STREETS, THIS TIME IN PEACE, WITH TEARS OF JOY.

THAT WAS THE SCENE IN MILWAUKEE.

"HERE AND NOW" REPORTERS WILL KENNEALLY AND MURV SEYMOUR WERE THERE.

>> TODAY I APPLAUD PEOPLE IN MINNESOTA FOR DOING THEIR DAMN JOB.

>> IT WAS A WIDESPREAD FEELING OF RELIEF AS WISCONSINITES HEARD THE NEWS THAT FORMER OFFICER DEREK SHOW VIN -- SHAW VIN WAS CONVICTED.

>> I KNOW WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST, THERE WAS NO HOPE OF, YOU KNOW, BELIEVING THAT THERE WOULD EVEN BE A VERDICT.

SO TO ACTUALLY GET IT AND GET IT ON ALL THREE IS WHERE THE JOY AND THE RELIEF COMES IN.

>> THE RELIEF CAME FROM SEEING JUSTICE DONE, ACCORDING TO MANY.

THAT ANOTHER BLACK MAN WOULD NOT BE KILLED BY POLICE WITHOUT RACING A CONVICTION.

THIS PAIN IS FAMILIAR IN MILWAUKEE.

>> THIS WOMAN STANDS IN THIS CIRCLE AS A REMINDER OF WHY YOU'RE ALL STANDING HERE TODAY.

WE HAVE EYES ON THE DONTRE HAMELL SON CASE, LIKE THE WORLD WATCHED.

>> HE WAS SHOT AND KILL BY MILWAUKEE POLICE IN 2014.

HIS MOTHER MARIA SPOASK AT -- SPOKE AT A VALLEY ARVE THE VERDICT WAS READ.

>> WE STILL HURT.

THERE'S THOUSANDS OF POLICE THAT HAVE NOT SEEN THE INSIDE OF A COURTHOUSE.

AND WE STILL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE GON THAT -- GONNA GET UP.

>> ASK THEMSELVES WHAT THEY CAN DO TO LIFT UP THE COMMUNITY.

OTHERS SAW IT AS A TEACHING MOMENT.

>> ARE YOU HAVING THOSE CONVERSATIONS?

DO YOUR KIDS GET TO WATCH COURT TRIAL OF GEORGE FLOYD.

TO YOU EXPLAIN TO THEM THE IMPORTANCE OF WHAT HAPPENED TODAY?

IF YOU HAVEN'T, IT IS MY JOB AS AN EDUCATOR, AS A BLACK MOM TO IM IMPORTANT YOU TO DO SO.

>> FOR ME, IT IS DEFINITELY A TEACHABLE MOMENT IN HOW ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, HOW A VERDICT OF PEERS, YOU KNOW, MULTIRACIAL PEERS, CAN CHANGE A VERDICT VERSUS HAVING PEER THAT'S DON'T LOOK LIKE THEM.

>> OUR KIDS ARE NOT LEARNING AT SCHOOL NOT TO BE RACIST.

OUR KIDS ARE NOT LEARNING AT SCHOOL MAKE FRIENDS WHO PEOPLE WHO DON'T LOOK LIKE YOU.

>> WHILE THE GUILTY WAS A CELEBRATION FOR MANY, THERE'S STILL WORK TO BE DONE.

>> THIS IS A DEFINITE CELEBRATION WE CELEBRATE WITH THE FLOYD FAMILY, BUT WE STILL THINK ABOUT THE OTHER FAMILIES THAT DID NOT GET THEIRS AND THEIR KILLERS ARE STILL BACK AT WORK, STILL THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNITY.

AND SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT CASES LIKE THIS CONTINUE TO HAPPEN, WHERE PEOPLE CONTINUE TO GET THE JUSTICE THAT THEY DESERVE WHEN UNJUSTLY KILLED BY OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT.

>> REPORTING FROM MILWAUKEE, I'M WILL KENNEALLY FOR "HERE AND NOW ."

[CHANTING] >> I'M MURV SEYMOUR WITH DETAILS ON WHAT PEOPLE EXPECT NOW THAT A GUILTY VERDICT IS IN AFTER THIS ENORMOUS TRIAL.

>> WE KNOW THAT FOLKS HAVE BEEN CALLING FOR CHANGE FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

THIS SHOULD PUT A FIRE UNDER EVERYONE THAT WE CANNOT IGNORE THIS ISSUE ANY LONGER.

>> WE TALK WITH A LAWMAKER WHO HAS TAKEN TO THE STREETS MARCH ING FOR CHANGE.

>> FOLKS HAVE TO BE ACCOUNTABLE.

MY COLLEAGUES IN THE LEGISLATURE AND WE ALL MUST RISE TO THE OCCASION TO WORK WITH EACH OTHER RATHER THAN LETTING THE PETTY SCWOBL -- SQUABBLES GET IN THE WAY.

>> I'M NOT A USE OF FORCE EXPERT >> A SPECIAL BIPARTISAN TASK FORCE OF STATE REPRESENTATIVES ANNOUNCED MORE THAN A DOZEN RECOMMENDATIONS ON STATEWIDE STANDARDS FOR POLICING.

THAT INCLUDES THINGS LIKE FORCING OFFICERS TO INTERVENE IF THEY SEE ANOTHER ONE USING EXCESSIVE FORCE.

STRONGER PROTECTION FOR OFFICERS WHO REPORT WITNESSING EXCESSIVE FORCE.

AND A STATE STATEWIDE BAN ON CHOKE HOLDS.

BODY CAMERAS AND PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATIONS FOR OFFICERS BEFORE THEY'RE EVEN HIRED.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY.

>> MAYOR TOM BARRETT SAYS IT'S CLEAR.

WE NEED NEW APPROACHES IN ACCOUNTABILITY AND INCREASED ACCOUNT -- RESPECT FOR THE COMMUNITY.

IT'S NOT THE END OF PROBLEMS IN POLICING.

>> THIS IS NOT THE CONCLUSION OF ANYTHING.

THE FIGHT FOR RACIAL JUSTICE, FAIR POLICING, COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT HAS TO CONTINUE.

IT WILL CONTINUE.

BECAUSE WE CONTINUE TO SEE TOO MANY PEOPLE DYING AT THE HANDS OF POLICE OFFICERS THROUGHOUT THIS NATION.

AND THAT HAS TO CHANGE.

[CHANTING] >> SO HOW DO SOCIAL JUSTICE PROTESTS IN KENOSHA, MADISON, MILWAUKEE AND OTHER PARTS OF THE STATE EFFECT ACTUAL CHANGES IN POLICING?

LISTEN TO THIS PROTESTOR.

>> IF YOU THINK YOUR PRESENCE HERE IS GOING TO HAVE AN EE EFFECT ON POLICING?

>> DEFINITELY.

WE ALL HAVE A VOIFS.

THAT MAKES ONE GIGANTIC VOICE.

I MOST DEFINITELY BELIEVE THAT I AS AN INDIVIDUAL COMING TOGETHER WITH OTHER INDIVIDUALS CAN MOST DEFINITELY MAKE A CHANGE.

>> PEOPLE, UNITED WILL NEVER BE DIVIDED.

>> THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD SPARKED THE WHOLE COUNTRY AND WORLD TO ENGAGE IN ACTIVISM: THE MOST THAT WE SEE SINCE THE ' 60s.

YOU ASK THEM IF PROTESTING WORKS [CHANTING] >> IT'S A STEP FORWARD.

>> WE NEED TO EMBRACE REFORM.

IT'S TIME FOR US TO BE CREATIVE, THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX.

>> REPORTING FOR "HERE AND NOW" I'M MURV SEYMOUR.

>> AS YOU SAW, THAT WAS MURV SEE SEYMOUR REPORTING.

HE JOINS THE "HERE AND NOW" TEAM WILL KENNEALLY RECENTLY JOIFNED THE REPORTING STAFF OF "HERE AND NOW" AFTER A TIRELESS YEAR AS DIGITAL EDITOR.

THIS WEEK GOVERNOR EVERS SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER DIRECTING STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT INCLUDING STATE PATROL, CAPITOL POLICE AND DNR WARDENS TO REVIEW AND UPDATE THEIR USE OF FORCE POLICIES AND THE ORDER SPECIFIES THAT DEADLY FORCE BE USED ONLY AS A LAST RESORT.

IT ALSO CALLS FOR OFFICERS TO EMPLOY DE-ESCALATION TECHNIQUES AND THAT THEY SHOULD INTERVENE TO STOP EXCESSIVE FORCE BY ANOTHER OFFICER.

FOLLOWING THE CONVICTION OF DEREK SHOW -- CHAUVIN THE LIEUTENANT THE GOVERNOR SAYS WE ALL DESERVE BETTER.

MANDELA BARNES JOINS US NOW.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME TODAY.

>> WHEN THE VERDICT CAME DOWN, YOU SAID IT'S AN AMAZING THING, THE IDEA OF JUSTICE CAN BE CAUSE FOR CELEBRATION.

WHAT ARE YOUR CONCERNS THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL CONSIDER THE CONVICTION A ONE AND DONE AND SAY, SEE, THE SYSTEM WORKS AND JUST LEAVE IT THERE?

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO LOOK AT THIS AS AN OVERALL VICTORY.

THIS IS ACCOUNTABILITY IN ONE INSTANCE.

JUSTICE WOULD BE GEORGE FLOYD STILL LIVING AND BREATHING TODAY AND I ALSO DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO GET COM COMPLACENT AND THINK THAT THE MOVEMENT HAS REACHED ITS PEAK, THAT THIS IS THE CULMINATION OF A YEAR LONG OF ORGANIZING AND DEMONSTRATING.

IT'S NOT THAT.

WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE MORE INSTANCES OF ACCOUNT ABILITY LIKE THIS SO THAT WE CAN BE ON THE PATH TO TRUE JUSTICE.

THERE ARE SO MANY COMMUNITIES, SO MANY FAMILIES AND INDIVIDUALS WHO DIDN'T EVEN GET TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED OR DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE THE ACCOUNTABILITY THAT WE SAW EARLIER THIS WEEK WITH DEREK CHA UVIN, EVEN HERE IN WISCONSIN, SO MANY MORE INSTANCE THAT'S WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE TRULY ON THE PATH TO ACHIEVING JUSTICE.

>> MEANWHILE, AS WE JUST DETAILED, THE GOVERNOR SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER DIRECTING STATE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ON USE OF FORCE.

HOW DO YOU REGARD THAT DIRECTIVE DOES IT GO FAR ENOUGH?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WE ARE DOING WHAT WE CAN AT THE STATE LEVEL.

AS I SAID MANY TIMES BEFORE, WE NEED A COORDINATED APPROACH.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT IT IS LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOING THE RIGHT THING TO MAKE SURE THAT POLICING IN OUR COMMUNITIES IS HELD TO A STANDARD, A CERTAIN STANDARD, A MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAT -- THAN WE SEE NOW.

AT THE STATE LEVEL, THE GOVERNOR IS TAKING THE NECESSARY STEP, A STEP THAT HE IS ABLE TO TAKE RIGHT NOW.

AS WE SEE, THE LEGISLATURE HAS DECIDED TO NOT ACT.

THE GOVERNOR INTRODUCED A -- RELEASED A PACKAGE OF LEGISLATION LAST YEAR AND IT'S STILL SITTING THERE.

THEY HAVE YET TO TAKE IT UP.

AND SO WITH A LEGISLATURE THAT CHOOSES TO IGNORE THE REALITY OF SO MANY PEOPLE IN OUR STATE, SO MANY AMERICANS, THE GOVERNOR IS TAKING THAT STEP TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DO EXACTLY WHAT WE CAN DO WITH OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.

>> AND YET ARE THINGS DIFFERENT TODAY?

COULD THERE BE NEW MOVE MEN ITEM >> WELL, ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THERE SHOULD BE NEW MOMENTUM.

I THINK WE SHOULD TURN THE PAGE TO A NEW ERA WHERE WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO SIT ON PINS AND NEEDLES AFTER WATCHING A VIDEO OF A MAN KILLED AND WONDERING WHICH WAY THE VERDICT IS GOING TO GO.

THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST ASTOUND ING PARTS OF ALL OF THIS, IS WE STILL FELT -- I DON'T MEAN JUST WE AS BLACK PEOPLE.

WE AS THE PEOPLE IN AMERICA STILL SAT WITH BAITED BREATH AS THE VERDICT WAS READ ALOUD NOT KNOWING WHICH WAY IT WOULD GO REGARDLESS WE SAW THIS VIDEO.

THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE CELEBRATING JUSTICE, CELEBRATING THE FACT THAT THERE WAS GUILTY VERDICTS, THIS IS AN INDICTMENT ON THE SYSTEM THAT HAS DENIED JUSTICE TO COMMUNITIES FOR SO LONG.

>> GIVEN THE BIPARTISAN MAKEUP OF THE TASK MORSE ON RACIAL -- FORCE ON RACIAL DISPARITIES, WHAT ARE YOUR EXPECTATIONS THAT RECOMMENDATIONS WILL BE SIGNED INTO LAW?

>> I THINK THAT SPEAKS A LITTLE BIT MORE TO, YOU KNOW, THE LACKLUSTER, YOU KNOW, NATURE OF THE TASK FORCE.

WE PRESENTED THE ASSEMBLY AND THE SENATE.

WE PRESENTED THE LEGISLATURE WITH A PACKAGE OF BILLS.

AND IF THEY THOUGHT THERE WERE ISSUES, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DEBATED ON THE ASSEMBLY FLOOR AND ON THE SENATE FLOOR.

I THINK THAT EVEN THOUGH THERE IS THIS RACIAL DISPARITY TASK FORCE, THE FACT IS THERE ARE MEMBERS THAT REPRESENT RACIAL AND ETHNIC MINORITY GROUPS IN THE LEGISLATURE THIEWFER, A LEGISLATIVE BLACK CAUCUS.

I BRING THIS POINT UP ALL THE TIME BECAUSE IT FEELS LIKE THE LEADERSHIP HAS CHOSEN TO IGNORE THOSE BLACK LAWMAKERS AND EVEN WHITE LAWMAKERS WHO HAVE INTRODUCED BILLS FOR POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY.

AS WE'VE SAID BEFORE, THIS IS A DELAY TACTIC SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO MUCH.

BILLS DIDN'T COME OUT THF TASK FORCE.

IF THEY WERE COMMITTED TO THE WORK, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN LEGISLATION THAT CAME AS A RESULT OF THE WORK OF THIS TASK FORCE.

>> WE'LL SEE WHERE THAT GOES.

LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> IF ANYONE KNOWS THE TENSION BETWEEN POLICING AND RACE IS OUR NEXT GUEST, THE FORMER MADISON POLICE CHIEF, IN LAW ENFORCEMENT FOR MORE THAN 35 YEARS, A CONSULTANT FOR THE U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ON COMMUNITY AND POLICE RELATIONS AND THE EXPERT WHO UPHELD THE DECISION TO NOT CHARGE THE KENOSHA POLICE OFFICER WHO SHOT JACOB BLAKE.

NOBLE WRAY SAYS HE ADD ADVOCATES FOR POLICE AND POLICE REFORM.

WE GET HIS TAKE ON THE DEREK CHA UVIN VERDICT.

CHIEF, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

I APPRECIATE THE INVITATION.

>> SO WHAT WAS YOUR REEF ACTION TO THE VERDICT, BOTH AS A MEMBER OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND FROM A PERSONAL STANDPOINT?

>> FROM A PERSONAL STANDPOINT, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT JUMPED OUT AS I WATCHED THAT WERE THE CITIZENS THAT WERE OBSERVING WHAT WAS GOING ON.

AND FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE, THEY WERE NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM BEING ADVERSARIAL.

THEY WERE JUST DESCRIBING HOW THEY FELT, WHAT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS MISSED IN THIS.

THEY REALLY WERE CITIZENS THAT CARED ABOUT GEORGE FLOYD AND I THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS MISSED IN THE WHOLE TRIAL AND WHAT WAS GOING ON.

>> SO WHAT WAS IT LIKE FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES, TO HEAR THE TESTIMONY AND REPEATEDLY SEE THE INDIVIDUAL YOAF OF THE OFFICERS' ACTIONS THAT RESULTED IN THE OFFICER'S MURDER CONVICTION?

>> THIS WAS A NO-BRAINER FROM THE BEGINNING.

I THOUGHT AND MANY IN LAW ENFORCEMENT THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS CLEARLY AN EXCESSIVE FORCE CASE.

IT WAS NINE MINUTES AND SO MANY SECONDS.

THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT I THINK MOST PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD STRAIGHT FROM THE GATE.

AND YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO BE A LAW ENFORCEMENT EXPERT TO BE ABLE TO DETERMINE THAT THIS WAS AN INDICTMENT ON HUMANITY.

>> SO WITH 37 YEARS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT THEN, WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD AS AN OUT OUTLIER IN POLICE PRACTICE OR AN EXAMPLE OF ALL TOO COMMON USE OF FORCE, ESPECIALLY AGAINST PEOPLE OF COLOR?

>> I REALLY THINK THAT THESE CASES SHOULD BE DEALT WITH ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS BECAUSE THEY'RE SO COMPLEX.

THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO RECOGNIZE IS THE FRAMEWORK IN WHICH THE SUPREME COURT HAS LAID THIS OUT, OBJECTIVELY REASONABLE , THAT I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO GET DIFFERENT RESULTS AND I THINK THE PUBLIC EXPECTS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET DIFFERENT RESULTS WHEN IT'S FRAMED OUT BASED UPON HOW THE SUPREME COURT HAS LAID THIS OUT, THE SUBJECTIVELY REASONABLE STANDARD.

>> SO WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT THAT, THAT OBJECTIVE REASONABLENESS STANDARD?

IT KIND OF DEPENDS, RIGHT, ON WHO YOU'RE CALLING OBJECTIVE TO MEET THAT THRESHOLD?

AND WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT IF YOU ARE TRYING TO IMPLEMENT REFORM?

>> THE REALITY IS ALTHOUGH WE REFER TO IT AS BEING OBJECTIVE AND REASONABLE, BECAUSE YOU'RE DEALING WITH SOMEONE'S JUDGMENT, HIS SUBJECTIVITY IS ALWAYS HERE.

AND SO AS LONG AS WE ARE JUDGING THIS, YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE A SUBJECTIVE PART OF THE ANALYSIS THAT WILL TAKE PLACE HERE.

AND I DON'T THINK PEOPLE REALIZE THAT.

IT IS WHAT A REASONABLE OFFICER WOULD DO UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.

AND I THINK WE ALL UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT THERE'S STILL A LEVEL OF SUBJECTIVITY THAT WE HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR.

>> AS TO THAT, HAVE STRIEFDZ BEEN MADE IN MITIGATING IMPLICIT BASIS WHERE LAW ENFORCEMENT SEE BLACK PEOPLE, THEY SEE A THREAT?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, THE RESEARCH IT OUT THERE.

I MEAN, THERE IS A BLACK THREAT IMPLICIT BIAS.

THERE'S DATA, THERE'S RESEARCH, THERE'S EM PEEFER PEER -- EMPIRICAL INFORMATION OUT THERE THAT WOULD SHOW.

HERE'S THE THING IN TERMS OF THE BLACK THREAT IMPLICIT BIAS, MANY POLICE OFFICERS ARE NOW STARTING TO PULL BACK, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE THE CNN, THE FOX NEWS , THE SOCIAL MEDIA EXAMPLE.

SO THEY ARE PULLING BACK ON SOME OF THE ACTIVITIES AND ACTIONS THAT THEY WOULD TAKE, BOTH IN THE AREA OF USE OF FORCE AS WELL AS THE WORK.

>> SO THAT WOULD BE REGARDED, I TRUST, AS A GOOD THING.

>> IN SOME RESPECTS, IT'S A GOOD THING.

IN SOME RESPECTS, IT'S NOT.

BECAUSE PROACTIVE POLICE, ENGAGING WITH COMMUNITY, TALKING TO PEOPLE, EXPLAINING WHAT YOU'RE DOING, ENGAGING WITH COMMUNITY IS THE HEART AND SOUL OF COMMUNITY POLICING.

SO IF WE'VE GOT POLICE OFFICERS THAT ARE PULLING BACK, THEY'RE NOT ENGAGING, THAT'S THE DOWNSIDE.

THE PART IN THIS WHERE I THINK OFFICERS ARE THINKING THROUGH THIS ONE IS THE USE OF FORCE.

YOU KNOW, HOW DO I APPROACH THIS SHOULD I SLOW DOWN?

SHOULD I CREATE DISTANCE?

ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT FOR POLICE OFFICERS NOT TO ENGAGE IN USES OF FORCE.

>> YOU SAID AT THE CONCLUSION OF YOUR JACOB BLAKE REVIEW THAT THE POLICING FIELD MUST CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON THE SANCTITY OF HUMAN LIFE IN DEALING WITH DEADLY FORCE.

HOW DOES THE POLICING FIELD GET THERE AND STAY THE FOCUS ON THE SANCTITY OF HUMAN LIFE?

>> I DON'T THINK, FREDERICA, THAT WE HAVE PUSHED HARD ENOUGH ON, YOU KNOW, THIS IDEA THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, FIREARMS AS PART OF ENDING THIS.

I REALLY DON'T.

THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS SOMETHING THAT IS GUARANTEED TO CITIZENS.

IT IS NOT GUARANTEED TO POLICE OFFICERS.

WE SHOULD BE PUSHING HARDER AS A PROFESSION, THAT WE CAN STOP A HUMAN BEING WITHOUT TAKING A LIFE.

THAT IS SO CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

I DON'T THINK AS A PROFESSION, I THINK WE FAIL IN THAT ARENA.

>> NOBLE WRAY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AS YOU HEARD EARLIER, A GROUP OF LAWMAKERS, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND COMMUNITY LEADERS FORMED AFTER THE SHOOTING OF JACOB BLAKE RELEASED A FINAL REPORT OF 17 RECOMMENDATIONS THIS WEEK FOR CHANGES TO POLICE PRACTICES IN WISCONSIN.

EARLIER THIS WEEK, MARISA WOJCIK SPOKE WITH REPRESENTATIVE SHEILA STUBBS, CO-CHAIR OF THE SPEAKER 'S TASK FORCE ON RAIRVEL DISPARITIES, WHICH LED THE WORK ON THE PROPOSALS.

>> I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN THE GUILTY VERDICT CAME DOWN?

>> I CRIED, BECAUSE FOR SO LONG YOU WATCH SO MANY FAMILIES GO THROUGH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND WE NEVER FEEL LIKE THERE IS ANY SIGHT OF JUSTICE.

AND, YOU KNOW, GIVING SO MUCH INFORMATION AND STILL FEELING LIKE NO MATTER WHAT'S BEEN GIVEN , NO MATTER HOW MUCH EVIDENCE IT IS, THE COMMUNITY ALWAYS FEEL LIKE THERE'S NO JUSTICE.

AND SO YESTERDAY IT WAS FIRST IMPORTANT FOR ME TO PROCESS THAT MR. GEORGE FLOYD SHOULD BE ALIVE TODAY.

AND, YOU KNOW, MICHAEL IS NOT JUST A HOLD OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE , TO ENSURE VIOLENCE DOES NOT CONTINUE TO IMPACT ANY COMMUNITY.

BUT IN ADDITION IT WAS A MOMENT TO LITERALLY TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND PROCESS WHAT HAPPENED.

>> HOW HAS THE PROGRESSION OF THIS PAST YEAR AND SPECIFICALLY THE TRIAL INFLUENCED THE WORK OF THE TASK FORCE AND OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON LAW ENFORCEMENT POLICIES AND STANDARDS?

>> WELL, WHAT'S MOST IMPORTANT IS TO MAKE SURE THAT PROTESTORS AND COMMUNITY WOULD BE BROUGHT IN THAT SPACE, OUR POSTURES, OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT EXPERTS, OUR COMMUNITY ADVOCATES WOULD BE ABLE TO COME IN THAT SPACE AND BRING TRUTH TO THE REALITY.

SO AS WE'VE DONE OUR WORK FOR SEVEN MONTHS, WE'VE BEEN TOGETHER WHEN THE VERDICT OF THE JACOB BLAKE CASE HAPPENED.

OUR TASK FORCE CONTINUE TO MEET DURING THE VERDICT ON THE BREONNA TAYLOR CASE AND HAD JUST COMPLETED OUR WORK AN HOUR BEFORE THE VERDICT IN THE GEORGE FLOYD CASE.

THESE ARE SUCH HUGE NATIONAL TRATGY -- TRAGEDIES THAT HAVE HAPPENED AND THE PRESSURE I FELT WHEN WE COME IN THE ROOM.

I HAVE TO COME IN THAT ROOM AS A CHAIRPERSON.

BUT IT'S IMPORTANT WHAT I TAKE WHAT I HEAR IN THE STREETS AND THE DEMAND AND COME IN THAT ROOM AND CRAFT LEGISLATION THAT IS MEANINGFUL.

SO IT IS IMPORTANT TO HEAR WHAT COMMUNITY HAS BEEN SAYING.

NUMBER ONE IS THAT ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

>> QUITE FRANKLY, ARE THESE ISSUES DIFFICULT TO DISCUSS WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT LIVED THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING BLACK IN AMERICA AND IN WISCONSIN?

>> I THINK IT'S A TUNNEL VISION.

IT'S NOT HARD FOR ME TO TALK TO ANYONE.

BUT I THINK WHAT WAS IMPORTANT IS TO LISTEN, TO COMMUNITIES OF COLOR THAT ARE IMPACTED.

LISTEN TO VALIDATORS OR LEADERS OR INFLUENCERS IN THE COMMUNITY.

I DON'T THINK OFTENTIMES LAW ENFORCEMENT GET A CHANCE TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.

THE CONVERSATIONS THEY HAVE WITH COMMUNITY IS ALWAYS AFTER A MAJOR UNREST OR AFTER SOMETHING 'S HAPPENED.

BUT WHAT IF THOSE CONVERSATIONS HAD TEAFN PLACE BEFORE -- TAKEN PLACE BEFORE THOSE INCIDENTS.

I THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT IMPORTANT FOR EVERY TASK FORCE MEMBER TO SPEAK TRUTH TO WHATEVER THE ISSUE WAS.

YOU HEARD SOME REALLY PERSONAL CONVERSATION.

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE IN A CAR DRIVING DOWN THE STREET BLACK AND YOUR CELL PHONE IS MISTAKEN AS A GUN.

LIKE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU'RE WHITE.

AND SO WE WENT LOOKING FOR EMPATHY.

WE WERE LOOKING AT I CAN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND WHY THIS IS AN ISSUE, WHY THEY'RE PRESSING ON CERTAIN REFORMS, WHY IS THAT NECESSARY FOR COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

IN THAT ROOM, WE HAD MEMBERS CRYING AT DIFFERENT TIMES THROUGH THE PROCESS.

WE HAD MEMBERS YELLING AT DIFFERENT TIMES.

WE HAD MEMBERS NEED TO GET UP AND STRETCH AND WALK OUT AND COME BACK IN.

WHAT YOU SAW IN THAT ROOM WAS REALITY.

THIS IS HARD WORK.

SO WHAT I WANT YOU TO REALLY UNDERSTAND IS IT TOOK THE TASK FORCE, MEMBERS FROM THE COMMUNITY TO COME INTO THE CAPITOL AND WORK WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AND ELECTED OFFICIAL S TO WORK ON A BIPARTISAN PIECE OF LEGISLATION IN ORDER TO MOVE ANY POLICE REFORMS ACROSS THE STATE OF WISCONSIN.

>> DO YOU SEE CHALLENGES AHEAD AS THIS -- AS THESE RECOMMENDATIONS DO MOVE TOWARDS THE LEGISLATURE, A REPUBLICAN- CONTROLLED LEGISLATURE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO THAT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS ARE IN CONTROL OF BOTH HOUSES AND OUR GOVERNOR IS A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR.

BUT BECAUSE WE WORKED BIPARTISAN WITH COMMUNITY, WHY ON EARTH WOULD OUR COLLEAGUES NOT WANT TO ACCEPT RECOMMENDATIONS FROM COMMUNITY THAT HAS SPENT SEVEN MONTHS BECOMING EXPERTS IN THESE TOPICS AND IN THESE SCENARIOS.

AND, REMEMBER, THIS LEGISLATION WAS DRAFTED WITH PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THAT ROOM.

WHO WOULD ARGUE WITH THAT?

>> THE TASK FORCE HOPES THE RECOMMENDATIONS WILL BE INTRODUCED AS LEGISLATIVE BILLS IN MAY.

MARISA WOJCIK'S COMPLETE INTERVIEW WITH REPRESENTATIVE STUBBS AS WELL AS CONTINUING COVERAGE OF WISCONSIN POLICE REFORM EFFORTS CAN BE FOUND AT pbswisconsin.org AND THEN BY CLICKING ON THE NEWS PAGE.

AND THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.

I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.

HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.

>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS WISCONSIN.