>> THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS A PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL PRODUCTION.

>> DEMOCRATS CALL FOR THE REMOVAL OF AN ELECTION OFFICIAL.

THE LEGISLATURE MOVES FORWARD WITH PLANS TO CHANGE THE CASH BAIL SYSTEM.

AND A NEW CONGRESS LAYS OUT DIVERGENT AGENDAS.

I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.

TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW."

WHAT AN OBSCURE COMMITTEE VOTE MEANS FOR A CONTROVERSIAL THERAPY.

CONTINUED OUTRAGE OVER STATEMENTS MADE BY A REPUBLICAN ELECTION OFFICIAL.

AND THE FIRST IN A SERIES OF INTERVIEWS WITH CANDIDATES FOR THE STATE SUPREME COURT.

IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR JANUARY 20TH.

FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS WISCONSIN.

>> A REPUBLICAN WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSIONER IS UNDER FIRE WITH CONTINUING CALLS THIS WEEK FOR HIS RESIGNATION.

THIS COMES AFTER COMMISSIONER ROBERT SPINDELL WAS QUOTED POST-ELECTION SAYING TO FELLOW REPUBLICANS, "WE CAN BE ESPECIALLY PROUD OF THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, CASTING 37,000 LESS VOTES THAN CAST IN THE 2018 ELECTION, WITH THE MAJOR REDUCTION HAPPENING IN THE OVERWHELMING BLACK AND HISPANIC AREAS.

DEMOCRATS CALL THIS BRAGGING ABOUT VOTER SUPPRESSION ON THE PART OF AN ELECTION OFFICIAL, AND THIS WEEK STATE SENATE DEMOCRATS CALLED FOR HIM TO RESIGN.

COMMISSIONER SPINDELL JOINS US NOW WITH HIS REACTION.

AND THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> WHAT IS YOUR REACTION AND RESPONSE TO THESE CALLS FOR YOU TO RESIGN YOUR POSITION AS AN ELECTIONS COMMISSIONER?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE DEMOCRATS HAVE REALLY LOST BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN FAILED BIDEN POLICIES SUCH AS INFLATION, SUBSTANDARD EDUCATION, HIGH CRIME RATE, AND THESE ARE SEVERAL OF THE ISSUES THAT WE TRIED TO PUT FORTH ON OUR RADIO COMMERCIALS AND OUR TWICE-A-WEEK RADIO TALK SHOW.

THAT'S WHY MANY PEOPLE BECOME DISENCHANTED COMING OUT TO VOTE, INCLUDING THOSE IN THE MINORITY COMMUNITY.

IN ADDITION, OF COURSE, THERE WAS A LOSS OF POPULATION SOMEWHAT IN THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, BUT ALSO THE HARD WORK OF THE PEOPLE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE CANDIDATES THAT WE GOT OUT TO RUN AND SO FORTH.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SUPPRESSION, YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER THE APRIL 2020 ELECTION, I USED TO BE A CITY OF MILWAUKEE ELECTION COMMISSIONER FOR 18 YEARS, AND IN MILWAUKEE, IT'S PROBABLY THE EASIEST CITY ANYWHERE TO VOTE, BECAUSE VERY RARELY DOES ANYBODY HAVE TO WAIT EVEN DURING NOVEMBER ELECTIONS MORE THAN FIVE OR 10 MINUTES AND IF YOU HAVE TO REGISTER, IF YOU WAIT MORE THAN 15 MINUTES, THEY'LL APOLOGIZE.

BUT IF YOU'RE GOING BACK TO THAT 18 -- OR THE ONE IN APRIL OF '2D 185 POLLING PLACES DOWN TO 5 POLLING PLACES, THE -- CENTER SAID THAT WOULD REDUCE THE -- SUPPRESS THE BLACK VOTE 15%.

WHAT HAPPENED IN MILWAUKEE, THE GENTLEMAN RUNNING FOR COUNTY EXEC, CROWLEY, WON BY A THOUSAND VOTES, THE INDIVIDUAL RUNNING FOR CITY TREASURER LOST BY A THOUSAND VOTES, LENA TAYLOR LOST BY ABOUT 15,000 VOTES.

SO CERTAINLY THE SUPPRESSION WAS NOT FROM THIS PROGRAM.

THE SUPPRESSION WAS SOMETHING ALONG THIS LINE, TRY AND DO SOMETHING ALONG THAT LINE.

>> COMMISSIONER, YOUR COMMENTS HAVE BEEN CALLED, QUOTE, INCREDIBLY RACIST, BECAUSE OF BEING PROUD, ACCORDING TO THAT EMAIL THAT YOU WROTE, THAT IN THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, AMONGST OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK AND HISPANIC AREAS, 37,000 FEWER VOTES WERE CAST.

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SAY ABOUT BEING DESCRIBED AS INCREDIBLY RACIST?

>> WELL, I'VE NEVER REALLY BEEN DESCRIBED AS THAT BEFORE.

OVER THE YEARS, I'VE BEEN A -- I'VE DONE A GREAT DEAL FOR THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN MILWAUKEE.

I WAS APPOINTED BY GOVERNOR THOMPSON TO BE THE ONLY NON-MINORITY MEMBER OF THE GOVERNOR'S COMMITTEE ON MINORITY BUSINESS.

HE THEN APPOINTED ME TO THE GOVERNOR'S CENTRAL CITY INITIATIVE, WHICH BROUGHT ABOUT ALL SORTS OF PROGRAMS TO HELP PEOPLE IN THE INNER CITY GET JOBS, GET A HOUSE, GET SOMETHING ALONG THAT LINE.

THAT WAS -- I WAS ON A WISCONSIN CORRECTIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR A WHILE, GOING AROUND TO PRISONS, TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT TO SAY IN TERMS OF GETTING JOBS, BUT MORE IMPORTANT, FOR OVER 25 YEARS, I WAS VICE CHAIR OF CAREER YOUTH DEVELOP M, ONE OF THE LARGEST SOCIAL SERVICE AGENCIES IN MILWAUKEE, AND WE HAVE SUCH PROGRAMS AS WE WERE THE FIRST AGENCY IN THE COUNTRY TO GET WITH A DRUG AND ALCOHOL HOSPITAL TO START OUR OWN OPERATION WITHIN THE FACILITY.

WE THEN PUT OUR OWN FACILITY TOGETHER.

WE RAN IT WITH OUR OWN DOCTORS AND WE EVEN BUILT AN INPATIENT TREATMENT CENTER.

THERE'S ALL SORTS -- WE HAVE 30 PROGRAMS.

>> SO YOU REJECT THE DESCRIPTION.

BUT IT'S NOT NEW FOR CANDIDATES TO SAY, PLEASE VOTE FOR ME, BUT IF YOU CAN'T DO THAT, DON'T VOTE FOR MY OPPONENT.

DEMOCRATS DID THAT IN 2020 IN TALKING TO MODERATE REPUBLICANS.

BUT ISN'T THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND CELEBRATING THE REDUCTION OF VOTES AMONGST A POPULATION OF VOTERS THAT HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST THROUGHOUT OUR NATION'S HISTORY?

>> WELL, REALLY THE THING I WAS CELEBRATING WAS THE FACT THAT FINALLY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF WISCONSIN AND THE RNC FINALLY RECOGNIZED THE IMPORTANCE OF THE BLACK VOTE, THE HISPANIC VOTE AND NOT JUST TALK ANYMORE BUT THEY ACTUALLY PUT THE RESOURCES INTO THAT PROGRAMS SO THAT WE MAY MAKE PROGRESS WITHIN THAT AGENCY.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE DISENCHANTED.

I KNOW THEY WERE -- THE DEMS TRIED TO GET PEOPLE TO KNOCK ON DOORS TO GET THEIR VOTE OUT.

THEY WERE PAYING $27 AN HOUR.

THEY COULDN'T GET PEOPLE TO DO THAT.

PEOPLE WERE DISENCHANTED.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BLACK, HISPANIC, THE WHITE COMMUNITIES WHERE THE EFFORT IS TO TRY AND GET THE PEOPLE THAT YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED OUT TO VOTE, AND IF THEY CAN'T, ALL THE ADVERTISING, WHETHER IT BE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON TELEVISION, THAT'S ALL NEGATIVE ADVERTISING TRYING TO SAY HOW BAD THE OTHER CANDIDATE IS.

>> HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO SENATE MAJORITY LEADER DEVIN LEMAHIEU WHO REAPPOINTED YOU TO A FIVE-YEAR TERM ABOUT WHETHER HE CONTINUES TO SUPPORT YOU AS AN ELECTIONS COMMISSIONER?

>> NO, I HAVE NOT, I HAVE NOT.

ALL HE WOULD SAY IS WELL, THE DEMS ARE TRYING TO GET YOU FOR THE FOURTH OR FIFTH TIME TO RESIGN.

THEY'VE TRIED THAT ON SEVERAL DIFFERENT OCCASIONS.

BECAUSE SIMPLY THEY DO NOT LIKE MY GOING THROUGH AND MAKING SURE THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS A VOICE ON THE COMMISSION, AND ALSO THAT WE WORK TOGETHER WITH THE DEMOCRATS TO TRY AND MAKE SURE THAT THE BEST SOLUTION FOR THE PEOPLE OF WISCONSIN COMES OUT OF SOME VERY HEAVY DISCUSSIONS AMONG THE SIX OF US ON THE WISCONSIN ELECTION COMMISSION.

>> WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.

WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSIONER BOB SPINDELL, THANKS VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> WE SHOULD NOTE THAT COMMISSIONER SPINDELL DECLINED TO SPEAK ABOUT HIS ROLE AS AN ALTERNATE OR FRAUDULENT 2020 ELECTOR.úSPEAKING IN THEIR DISTS WEEK, CONGRESSMAN BRYAN STEIL, A REPUBLICAN AND MARK POCAN, A DEMOCRAT, POINT FINGERS ON THE DEBT CEILING AND FORWARD THEIR OWN AGENDAS FOR THE 118TH CONGRESS.

>> YOU DON'T MESS AROUND WITH THE DEBT CEILING UNLESS YOU TRULY, YOU KNOW, ARE ON SOME SORT OF A STRANGE DEATH WISH BECAUSE IT'S JUST AWFUL FOR THE COUNTRY.

SO OUR HOPE IS THAT CALMER HEADS WILL PREVAIL AS TIME GOES ON.

>> I JUST THINK IT WOULD BE FOOLHARDY IF WE SIMPLY JUST MADE THE ONE PAYMENT ON THE CREDIT CARD BUT DIDN'T CHANGE ANY OF OUR BEHAVIOR, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO SHOW BACKUP AGAIN NEXT MONTH.

>> A BAN ON SO-CALLED CONVERSION THERAPY HAS BEEN LIFTED IN WISCONSIN.

REPUBLICAN MAJORITY MEMBERS ON A LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE BLOCKED LICENSING RULES BANNING THERAPY DESIGNED TO CHANGE THE SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR GENDER IDENTITY OF LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL OR TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.

MARISA WOJCIK HAS MORE.

>> LAWMAKERS LIFTED THE BAN DESPITE CONVERSION THERAPY BEING DEEMED HARMFUL, INEFFECTIVE, AND NON-EVIDENCE-BASED.

BY THE STATE'S EXAMINING BOARD OF THERAPISTS AND COUNSELORS.

>> WHAT MAKES IT SO HARMFUL IS THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CHANGE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT CHANGEABLE.

>> MATTHEW SHURKA, CO-FOUNDER OF BORN PERFECT, TELLS HIS STORY OF CONVERSION THERAPY AS A CAUTIONARY TALE.

>> A LOT OF PARENTS REALLY ARE BEING DUPED IN A WAY.

>> INCLUDING HIS OWN.

>> THEY WANTED TO SPEAK TO A LICENSED PROFESSIONAL WHO COULD GUIDE THEM AS PARENTS AND MYSELF AS A YOUNG MAN.

>> IT'S ABOUT PROTECTING CONSUMERS FROM HARM SO THAT THEY'RE NOT PAYING MONEY AND THINKING THAT THEY'RE GETTING A LEGITIMATE THERAPY OR TREATMENT, AND ACTUALLY WHAT THEY'RE GETTING IS SOMETHING THAT HAS NO THERAPEUTIC VALUE AND IS ACTUALLY HARMFUL.

>> STARTING WHEN HE WAS 16, SHURKA AND HIS FAMILY SPENT FIVE YEARS AND $35,000 TO BE TOLD A LITANY OF REASONS WHY HE WASN'T NORMAL.

>> THE FIRST STEPS IN MY DIAGNOSIS WAS THAT I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK TO MY MOTHER AND TWO SISTERS, WHICH LASTED THREE YEARS.

SOMEONE WHO'S IN A PROFESSIONAL SETTING IS JUST LIKE PULLING IRRESPONSIBLY THESE DIAGNOSES THAT I HAVE TO EXPLAIN OR TRY TO RATIONALIZE THAT WHAT I'M EXPERIENCING IS NOT REAL.

>> SURVEY DATA FROM THE TREVOR PROJECT FOUND THAT 44% OF LGBTQ YOUTH IN WISCONSIN SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED SUICIDE IN THE PAST YEAR.

AND THOSE WHO UNDERWENT CONVERSION THERAPY, OR WARNED OF THE POSSIBILITY, WERE MORE THAN TWICE AS LIKELY TO ATTEMPT SUICIDE.

>> I THINK THIS IS WHERE THE SUICIDALITY COMES IN, THIS IS WHERE THE RUNNING AWAY FROM HOME, BECAUSE EVERY LGBT PERSON I'VE EVER SPOKEN TO KNOWS THEY NEVER CHANGED.

>> ONE OF THE EXPERTS WHO TESTIFIED BEFORE THE COMMITTEE IN OPPOSITION TO LIFTING THE BAN ON CONVERSION THERAPY WAS BRIAN MICHAEL.

HE'S THE CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER OF MENTAL HEALTH AMERICA OF WISCONSIN.

HE JOINS US NOW.

THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO WE JUST HEARD FROM MATTHEW SHURKA ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE HAVING UNDERGONE CONVERSION THERAPY.

IN YOUR BELIEF, WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE THERAPY THAT CAUSES SUCH HARM, EVEN LEADING PEOPLE TO SUICIDE?

>> WELL, REALLY WHAT A LOT OF THE BAD AND ADVERSE EFFECTS COME DOWN TO IS, YOU KNOW, MAKING A YOUNG PERSON WHO'S LIVING THESE THOUGHTS FEEL MORE REJECTED AND ISOLATED, AND WE DO KNOW THAT THOSE FEELINGS CAN LEAD TO INCREASED RATES OF DEPRESSION, SUICIDE ATTEMPT, SUICIDE IDEATION.

YOUNG FOLKS WHO ARE PART OF THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY ARE ALREADY AT HIGHER RISK OF DEPRESSION AND SELF-HARM, BUT WHEN THAT IS COMPARED TO THOSE WHO FEEL HIGHLY REJECTED BY THEIR CAREGIVERS, BY THEIR FAMILIES, THAT CAN RESULT IN NEARLY A NINE TIMES HIGHER RATE OF ATTEMPTING SUICIDE, SIX TIMES HIGHER RATE OF DEPRESSION, AND ABOUT 3 1/2 MORE TIMES LIKELY OF ILLEGAL DRUG USE AND HIV/AIDS.

>> SO WHO ARE THE THERAPISTS WHO PROVIDE THIS CONVERSION COUNSELING IF IT IS SO OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSED BY PROFESSIONALS?

>> SO UNFORTUNATELY, WE DON'T HAVE A RUNNING LIST OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS AND THERAPISTS WHO DO ENGAGE IN THAT THERAPY OR IN THOSE TYPES OF INTERVENTIONS, DESPITE HOW MANY PROFESSIONAL AND MEDICAL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE DISAVOWED AND DENOUNCED THIS TYPE OF INTERVENTION, EVERYTHING FROM AMERICAN ACADEMY OF CHILD AND ADOLESCENT PSYCHIATRY, ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS, THE SCHOOL COUNSELOR ASSOCIATION.

BUT WHAT PARENTS AND FAMILIES WHO ARE SEEKING SUFFICIENT AND HELPFUL SUPPORT CAN LOOK FOR IS THAT THIS TYPE OF INTERVENTION MIGHT BE MASKED UNDER DIFFERENT TYPES OF TERMS.

SO IT'S ALSO REFERRED TO AS REPARATIVE THERAPY, OR IT COULD BE REGARDED AS COULD BE CALLED SEXUALITY COUNSELING OR SEXUAL ATTRACTION FLUIDITY.

SO REALLY, THOSE WHO ARE ENGAGING IN THIS PRACTICE, THERE'S EVEN A WAY OF AVOIDING THE KIND OF FLAGGING TERM OF CONVERSION THERAPY BY SIMPLY DESCRIBING IT AS SOMETHING ELSE WHEN IN EFFECT, IT IS STILL MAINTAINING THE SAME PURPOSE, THAT THE SOCIAL WORK ASSOCIATIONS WERE DENOUNCING OF ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE SOMEONE'S ORIENTATION, REALLY AGAINST THEIR WILL OR AT A TIME WHEN THEY'RE TOO -- THEY HAVEN'T DEVELOPED TO THE POINT TO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS.

>> AND GIVEN ALL OF THIS, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN THE COMMITTEE VOTED TO LIFT THE BAN ON CONVERSION THERAPY?

>> YOU KNOW, FOR THOSE WHO ATTENDED THAT HEARING AND WITNESSED THAT HEARING, IT WAS HOURS OF TESTIMONY AGAINST LIFTING THIS BAN.

COMING FROM ALL VARIETY OF SECTORS.

WHETHER IT WAS INDIVIDUALS IN THAT COMMUNITY THEMSELVES, SOCIAL WORKERS, TREVOR PROJECT, NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, MENTAL HEALTH AMERICA OF WISCONSIN, ALL COMING OUT TO SAY NOT ONLY THAT THIS PRACTICE IS HARMFUL, BUT WHAT THE COMMISSION -- WHAT THAT COMMITTEE DID WAS ALSO SAY THAT IN CREATING THIS ETHICAL BOUNDARY, THE SOCIAL WORKER ASSOCIATIONS AND PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATIONS OVERSTEPPED THEIR BOUNDS, AND REALLY THE COMMITTEE WAS COUNTERING THEIR ARGUMENT SAYING THIS WAS A CAPRICIOUS AND ARBITRARY USE OF THAT RULEMAKING AUTHORITY, AND THAT IS WHY THE COMMITTEE SAID WE ARE GOING TO REMOVE THAT RULE.

SO THEY DIDN'T -- THE COMMITTEE, DURING THAT HEARING, EXPRESSLY SAID SEVERAL TIMES, WE'RE NOT HERE TO TALK ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT CONVERSION THERAPY IS GOOD OR BAD, DESPITE ALL THE EVIDENCE, OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE SHOWING THAT IT'S HARMFUL.

OUR STATEMENT REALLY WAS, WE DON'T -- YOU'RE RIGHT, WE DON'T NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE IT IS A HARMFUL PRACTICE.

BUT THESE SOCIAL WORKERS AND THOSE PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE AND THE EXPERTISE TO STATE, THIS IS AN UNETHICAL PRACTICE, AND IF YOU ARE GOING TO ENGAGE IN THIS PRACTICE, YOU ARE GOING TO BE ACTING OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF YOUR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT.

>> WELL, WE APPRECIATE HEARING FROM YOU, BRIAN MICHEL.

THANKS VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME JOIN YOU.

TAKE CARE.

>> THE WISCONSIN ASSEMBLY THURSDAY GAVE FINAL PASSAGE TO SENDING A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO VOTERS IN APRIL.

A MEASURE THAT WOULD MAKE IT HARDER FOR VIOLENT CRIMINALS TO GET OUT OF JAIL ON BAIL.

IT WOULD REQUIRE A JUDGE TO CONSIDER A DEFENDANT'S POTENTIAL RISK TO PUBLIC SAFETY, INCLUDING THEIR CRIMINAL HISTORY.

CURRENTLY CASH BAIL IS SET ONLY TO ENSURE THAT THE PERSON APPEARS IN COURT.

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" CALLS THE RACE FOR WISCONSIN'S HIGH COURT ARGUABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION IN AMERICA IN 2023.

TWO CONSERVATIVES AND TWO LIBERALS FACE OFF IN A PRIMARY FEBRUARY 21, AND 2 WILL MOVE ON TO THE GENERAL ELECTION APRIL 4.

THE WINNER WILL DETERMINE THE IDEOLOGICAL BALANCE OF THE COURT GOING FORWARD.

"HERE AND NOW" SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER ZAC SCHULTZ BRINGS US IN DEPTH INTERVIEWS WITH EACH CANDIDATE OVER THE NEXT MONTH.

FIRST UP, DANIEL KELLY, WHO PREVIOUSLY SERVED ON THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT.

KELLY WAS APPOINTED BY REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER IN 2016.

HE RAN FOR RE-ELECTION IN 2020 AND LOST, BUT SAYS HE IS RUNNING AGAIN AS A CONSTITUTIONAL CONSERVATIVE.

>> CONSTITUTIONAL CONSERVATISM IS THAT COMMITMENT TO THE ORIGINAL PUBLIC MEANING OF THAT DOCUMENT AND FAITHFULLY FOLLOWING THAT IN EVERY SINGLE CASE THAT WE DECIDE.

>> DOES THAT EVER RUN INTO CHALLENGES WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE SPECIFIC LEGISLATION TO FOLLOW, YOU DON'T HAVE THE SPECIFIC HISTORY OF COURT DECISIONS TO FOLLOW, AND YOU KIND OF HAVE TO BREAK NEW GROUND AS THE COURT IS SOMETIMES REQUIRED TO DO.

>> YEAH, SO WHAT WE DO WHEN WE'RE BREAKING NEW GROUND, WHEN WE SAY THAT, WE'RE TAKING PRINCE PPRINCIPLES THAT ALREADY EXIST, TEXTS THAT ALREADY EXISTS, WHETHER IT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION OR IN THE STATUTES, AND WE'RE APPLYING TO NEW SITUATIONS.

SO IN THAT SENSE, IT MIGHT BE BREAKING NEW GROUND.

BUT WE NEVER BREAK NEW GROUND IN LAW.

SO WE KNOW FROM LOOKING AT THE CONSTITUTION, ARTICLE 4 OF OUR WISCONSIN CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT THE LEGISLATIVE POWER IS LOANED TO THE ASSEMBLY AND THE SENATE.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T SAY THE SENATE ASSEMBLY, AND ALSO WHEN DAN KELLY THINKS HE'S GOT A GREAT IDEA FOR NEW LAW, RIGHT?

IT'S ONLY THE LEGISLATURE THAT GETS TO MAKE OUR LAW.

SO EVEN IN NOVEL CIRCUMSTANCES, WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO GO BACK TO THE TEXT OF THE LAW, WHETHER IT'S THE STATUTE OR IT'S THE CONSTITUTION, AND WE'RE GOING TO APPLY THAT MEANING TO RESOLVE THE CASE.

BUT IF WE EVER GET IN A POSITION OF IMPORTING OUR PERSONAL PREFERENCES OR OUR PERSONAL POLITICS, THAT'S POISON TO THE WORK OF THE COURT.

THAT DESTROYS THE CONSTITUTION KNOLL ORDER, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO SET THAT ASIDE, SET ASIDE ALL THOSE PERSONAL PREFERENCES AND POLICIES, AND JUST DECIDE CASES BASED ON THE LAW.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE POISON AT THE FORUM LAST WEEK, AND YOU TALKED ABOUT IN REFERENCE TO SOME OF THE COMMENTS YOU HEARD SOME OF YOUR OPPONENTS MAKING.

WHEN YOU HEAR SOME OF THOSE PUBLIC COMMENTS, HOW MUCH OF THAT COMES ACROSS AS VIRTUE SIGNALING TO AN AUDIENCE, TO VOTERS, AS OPPOSED TO HOW SOMEONE MAY APPLY THE LAW FROM THE BENCH?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S CONCEIVABLE THAT CERTAIN CANDIDATES MIGHT USE THAT AS VIRTUE SIGNALING, AND THEN OTHERS WOULD USE IT, JUST AS THIS IS HOW I'M GOING TO DECIDE CASES.

HERE'S THE PROBLEM WITH BOTH OF THEM.

SO IF YOU ARE -- IF YOU THINK AS A CANDIDATE THAT YOU SHOULD BE VIRTUE SIGNALING TO ATTRACT THE VOTES OF A CERTAIN BODY OF WISCONSINITES, WHAT YOU'RE TELLING THEM IS THAT YOU ARE NOT -- YOU ARE NOT COMMITTED TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER, AND YOU'RE TELLING THEM THAT THE POLITICS SHOULD HAVE A ROLE IN THE COURT, EVEN IF YOU DON'T INTEND TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THAT, WHAT YOU'RE TELLING THE VOTERS IS THAT IT SHOULD HAVE A ROLE, AND I THINK THAT'S EXTRAORDINARILY PROBLEMATIC, BECAUSE WHEN PEOPLE COME IN TO THIS ROOM SO THAT THE COURT CAN HEAR THEIR CASE, WHAT PEOPLE OF WISCONSIN WANT TO KNOW, WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, IS THAT EVERYONE ON THAT BENCH IS GOING TO FOLLOW THE LAW.

THEY DON'T COME IN HERE AND SAY, YOU KNOW, TO ONE OF THE JUSTICES, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOUR VALUES ARE.

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK THE LAW OUGHT TO BE.

THEY DON'T SAY THAT.

THEY SAY FOLLOW THE LAW.

AND THAT IS THE COMMITMENT THAT WE ARE TO MAKE, NOT ONLY IN FACT, BUT IN APPEARANCE, TOO.

>> HOW DO VOTERS DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THAT WHICH -- THEY WOULD PROBABLY LARGELY AGREE WITH, AND WHO YOU WERE APPOINTED BY, WHO CAMPAIGNS ON YOUR BEHALF, WHEN YOU APPEAR AT A CAMPAIGN RALLY AND YOUR PERSONAL -- ON YOUR PERSONAL BEHALF AS OPPOSED TO REPRESENTING THE COURT, HOW CAN THE PUBLIC DRAW THE DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THAT AND WHAT THEY MAY SEE ON THEIR SCREENS?

>> YEAH, SO I THINK THE BEST WAY THAT PEOPLE CAN GET A SENSE, BECAUSE I TALK TO PEOPLE IN A VARIETY OF SETTINGS, AND THERE'S HARDLY ANYONE THAT I WON'T TALK TO.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, CUBS FANS.

I WON'T TALK TO THEM.

EVERYBODY ELSE, I'LL TALK TO.

SO THAT MIGHT OCCUR IN A POLITICAL CONTEXT.

IT MIGHT OCCUR IN A COMMUNITY CONTEXT.

IT MIGHT OCCUR IN A COMMUNITY OF FAITH.

IT COULD OCCUR IN A WHOLE VARIETY OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE MEMBERS OF THE COURT ARE COMMITTED TO TALKING TO PEOPLE FROM A BROAD ARRAY OF BACKGROUNDS, AND SO I'M COMMITTED TO THAT.

NOW, THE WAY THAT THEY BECOME CONFIDENT THAT I SET ASIDE MY POLITICS AND MY PREFERENCES IS BY READING MY WORDS.

SO I WROTE EVERY SINGLE OPINION WHEN I WAS ON THE COURT.

I WROTE IT WITH AN UNDERSTANDING THAT THE AUTHORITY I WAS USING WAS BORROWED FROM THE PEOPLE, AND THAT EACH OPINION I WROTE WAS REALLY A REPORT TO THEM ON HOW I USED THEIR BORROWED AUTHORITY.

AND SO I WROTE IT IN EACH OF THOSE OPINIONS IN A WAY THAT IT'S ACCESSIBLE TO ANYONE.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A LAWYER TO READ AND UNDERSTAND THE OPINIONS THAT I WROTE, AND I THINK THAT WAS IMPORTANT BECAUSE OF THIS VERY QUESTION, BECAUSE THEY NEED TO BE CONFIDENT THAT THE MEMBERS OF THE COURT, THAT THEY'VE LOANED THEIR AUTHORITY TO, ARE JUST DECIDING THE CASES BASED ON THE LAW.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE NEXT COURT WILL ADDRESS, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE FRAMING THIS ELECTION AROUND A REDISTRICTING COURT COMING BACK, OR A REDISTRICTING SUIT COMING BACK, OR THE ABORTION 1849 LAW COMING TO THIS COURT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE IDEA THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL BE GOING TO VOTE BASED ON WHETHER THEY WANT TO SEE CERTAIN OUTCOMES IN CERTAIN DECISIONS AND THAT'S HOW THEY'RE GOING TO CHOOSE THEIR JUSTICE?

>> I THINK THAT WOULD BE REALLY UNFORTUNATE.

IF I COULD ENCOURAGE OUR FELLOW WISCONSINITES JUST ONE THING IN THIS RACE, IS TO MAKE A DECISION ON WHO YOU BELIEVE WILL BE THE MOST FAITHFUL TO THE LAW.

NOT TO THE -- NOT TO THE RESULTS THAT YOU WANT, BUT TO THE LAW.

AND JUST IF I COULD JUST ADDRESS THIS AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, JUST FOR A MOMENT, THERE MIGHT BE AN ISSUE OR TWO ISSUES THAT YOU'RE REALLY PASSIONATE ABOUT, AND YOU REALLY WANT TO COME OUT A PARTICULAR WAY.

AND SO YOU SAY, I'M GOING TO GO AND FIND A JUSTICE WHO WILL PROMISE ME THAT HE'LL VOTE OR SHE'LL VOTE IN THIS PARTICULAR WAY ON THIS ISSUE.

I THINK THAT'S A DANGEROUS PLACE TO GO, BECAUSE IF YOU FIND A CANDIDATE WHO WILL PROMISE YOU THAT THEY WILL VOTE IN A PARTICULAR WAY ON YOUR FAVORED ISSUE, THAT KIND OF JUSTICE IS ALSO GOING TO BE TAKING POLITICS INTO ACCOUNT IN VOTING ON EVERY OTHER ISSUE.

BECAUSE JUDICIAL ACTIVISM VERSUS CONSTITUTIONAL CONSERVATISM, IT'S AN ALL OR NOTHING THING.

YOU EITHER BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN BRING YOUR POLITICS INTO THE COURT AND MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON THAT, OR YOU DON'T.

>> IT'S FASCINATING YOU MENTIONED THE LOOKING TO THE COURTS TO SOLVE A POLITICAL PROBLEM, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY THAT'S JUST WHAT THE DOBBS DECISION WAS WITH THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, THAT THAT WAS CONSERVATIVES LOOKING TO A CONSERVATIVE COURT TO SOLVE A POLITICAL ISSUE.

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THE DOBBS DECISION?

>> SO I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO IT.

YOU KNOW, THE ISSUE OF ABORTION IS VERY LIKELY TO COME TO COURT, TO THIS COURT.

I UNDERSTAND THERE'S ALREADY A LAWSUIT THAT CHALLENGES AN EARLY VERSION OF THE STATUTE, AND INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, THE CLAIM THERE -- IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I'VE LOOKED AT THE PLEADINGS, YOU NEVER KNOW, MIGHT HAVE BEEN AMENDED, BUT WHEN I ORIGINALLY LOOKED AT THEM, THERE WAS NO CLAIM OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY.

THEY SIMPLY SAID THAT THERE WAS A SUBSEQUENT STATUTE THAT OVERRULES THE PRIOR STATUTE, AND SO REALLY THE CONSTITUTIONAL ELEMENT OR THE QUESTION IS NOT COMING TO THE COURT ANY TIME SOON, ALTHOUGH THAT IS CERTAINLY A POSSIBILITY DOWN THE ROAD.

SO THEY OPENED UP THE POSSIBILITY FOR THIS TO BE ADDRESSED AT THE STATE LEVEL, AND THAT'S ALL THEY DID.

>> HOW MUCH IS THIS RACE CHANGED VERSUS THE 2020 RACE IN TERMS OF NATIONAL ATTENTION, STATE ATTENTION, PEOPLE'S AWARENESS OF WHAT THE COURT MEANS IN THEIR LIVES?

>> I THINK IT HAS GOTTEN A HIGHER PROFILE, AND THAT IN AND OF ITSELF, I FIND SOMEWHAT REGRETTABLE.

WHEN THE COURT GETS A HIGHER PROFILE, WHAT THAT SUGGESTS TO ME IS THAT THERE ARE FORCES THAT ARE TRYING TO ELEVATE ITS POSITION IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER TO BE IN A POSITION THAT IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE IN.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF WHAT I HEAR IS THAT THERE ARE ISSUE ADVOCACY GROUPS THAT ARE GOING TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY IN THIS RACE BECAUSE THEY WANT, FRANKLY, ONE OF MY -- ONE OF MY OPPONENTS, MAYBE TWO OF MY OPPONENTS WHO ARE TALKING ABOUT THEIR VALUES AND WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO BRING TO THE COURT AS RULES OF DECISION.

AND THESE INTEREST GROUPS ARE LATCHING ON TO THAT AND SAYING, YES, THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.

WE WANT SOMEONE ON THE BENCH WHO'S GOING TO BRING THESE PARTICULAR POLITICS TO THE WORK OF THE COURT TO IMPORT THAT POISON INTO THE JUDICIAL PROCESS.

WE WANT THAT.

AND WHAT I'VE HEARD IS THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF MONEY THAT IS GOING TO COME IN TO SUPPORT THAT.

>> NEXT WEEK ON THIS PROGRAM, ZAC SITS DOWN WITH LIBERAL CANDIDATE JUDGE JANET PROTASIEWICZ AS PART OF HIS SERIES OF INTERVIEWS WITH THE FOUR CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT.

FOR MORE ON THIS AND OTHER ISSUES FACING WISCONSIN, VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PBSWISCONSIN.ORG, AND THEN CLICK ON THE NEWS TAB.

THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.

I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.

HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.

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