♪ Welcome to This Week in South Carolina.

I'm Gavin Jackson.

After months of negotiations on the Police Reform Bill, led in part by Senator Tim Scott the measure has officially stalled, with both sides blaming the other.

Marq Claxton, Director of Public Affairs for the Black Law Enforcement Alliance, shares his thoughts on the failed bill, but first Antjuan Seawright with Blue Print Strategy, looks at the recent state Supreme Court ruling on the controversial Heritage Act and its impact.

Antjuan, thanks for joining me.

>> Thank you, Gavin for having me.

>> ...big news that came out of the State Supreme Court recently, was that they found part of the controversial Heritage Act to be unconstitutional.

... that's of course that 2000 law that was passed by the State House to get the Confederate Battle Flag off the State House dome, but put up on the front...yard of the State House, essentially, next to the Confederate Soldiers' Memorial.

I want to ask you about the part that they found unconstitutional, was the two thirds majority requirement to change any of these monuments, any memorials building names across the state.

...What do you make of this now that, that has been stripped out of the law?

>> Well, first of all, Gavin I'll say this, delayed but not denied.

I think there's a spirit or a sense, not just in South Carolina, around the country for us to figure out a way to move past some of those dark, stained moments on the glasses of history and I think this decision by the South Carolina Supreme Court opens up an opportunity.

I would even go so far as to say this is probably one of the most consequential decisions by our Supreme Court in my political lifetime.

However, there's another side to the story.

Just because the Supreme Court made a ruling or a decision, does not mean the state legislature dominated not necessarily by Republicans, but those who have constituencies that do not support the idea of removal of some of those dark, stains in the glasses of history that we oftentimes refer to.

What this does do, it gives I think colleges, universities, municipalities and governments who want to move forward and want to remove statues and names of buildings and so forth, it gives them an opportunity to make their case with their constituencies, hopefully that will move members of the General Assembly.

>> ...Antjuan, you've been around the State House for years.

You know how things go up there.

We'll talk about the Confederate Flag coming down in a moment, but what you're kind of talking about there is... the ability to have some of these local delegations to kind of bring up a renaming bill for instance of a road in their district that they want changed, because of the history of that name, associated with that name.

...You really think that there might be the ability for folks to kind of let those local delegations get their bill passed, like they typically do when it comes to local matters or do you think they'll still be someone of an all in all out fight there?

>> Well, I think it's just depending on the mood and the temperature of the General Assembly.

I think we cannot press the ignore button on the fact that when they return in 2022, every single one of the House members will be up for election, as well as statewide offices.

...we cannot be drunk on the fact that the politics of 2022 will have some impact on what happened legislative wise, but what I would say to those who may not be in favor given local entities, the ability to make decisions, we often times hear from some of those same voices, that government should not play a role in certain places, in certain spaces, certain levels of government should not be able to tell other levels of government what to do and what not to do.

Well, this should feed into their arguments and allowing those who have been elected by the people or appointed by the people, in the cases of colleges and universities to make decisions that they feel is best for their institutions in their organization.

>> ...we've already heard from leadership in the State House, including House Speaker Jay Lucas, who said we're not going to take up any re-naming bills, any of these bills to remove statues or monuments alike, while he is still speaker.

So, until he's out of there, that sounds like that's going to be the case, the prevailing thought, ...because he does kind of control that agenda, but you do see this as the ability for future legislative sessions to have the opportunity to make some headway it sounds like for issues that a lot of people have concerns about, when it comes to names of these statues and buildings.

>> Gavin, if you would've told me 10 years ago that the Confederate Battle Flag would have been taken off the grounds of the Capitol, we probably would have laughed ourselves and took each other out for a drink.

So, who knows what the future may hold.

Here's what I do know, as the state changes, as the country changes, as my generation gets older, the thinking of my generation does not always reflect those of our parents and grandparents.

...I think people are ready to expand history in a way that we all can be proud of, not in such a way that parts of history where some will frown and some will smile about.

>> So, you're hoping that we won't have to resort to these big decisions only as a result of tragedy, essentially is what we're talking about?

Obviously, last time we talked about this issue, getting rid of the Confederate Battle Flag, entirely from State House grounds was in 2015 after the tragedy, the massacre at Mother Emanuel AME Church, including eight Black parishioners and the ninth one, of course was Senator Clementa Pinckney.

Antjuan, we were on a panel together, following the Downing of a Flag, that's that new documentary that SCETV helped produce.

Looking at how that flag came down six years ago, but you made a pretty startling statement about the fact about how the flag came down.

I don't want to take it away from you.

...tell me what you... said, because it was pretty shocking and it kind of shocked me when you said it.

>> If it were not for nine black people, being killed in a church in Charleston by a certified white supremacists by the name of Dylann Roof, I am 100% sure that flag will still be flying today.

...Gavin, I'll probably even edit that statement from the time I made it, to the last time you and I were together.

If it wasn't for the fact that one of those nine people was a elected state senator, who has served in the House by the name of Senator Reverend Clementa Pinckney, I'm not sure that, that flag would have come down.

We've seen these big, sad events happen all around the country, but they did not yield results that we were able to celebrate in South Carolina.

Sadly, it took that to happen, but it also opened up the door for opportunity in other places to remove monuments and so forth, and every time we have one of these big events, we still... we have these things that bring about change.

Here's what's the unfortunate part about the monument ...conversation and the flag conversation.

Although, the flag may have come down, some of the other things that went along with racism, bigotry and hate and that led to the shooting in Charleston, some of those things have not changed legislative wise in the world, like the gun control law that would have given - ...would have prohibited Dylann Roof from even having the ability to get a gun.

>> ...of course, we know there are still challenges when it comes to any kind of gun reform changes in the State House, as well, including expanding that background check to include more than just three days, which gave him the ability to get that gun.

...what do you say about folks who say if we remove these monuments, if we remove building names, we're white washing history?

We saw the John C. Calhoun statue come down in Marion Square, last year.

Has that made a difference in how we perceive history when it comes to his legacy?

>> ...I'm a firm believer that symbols matter and when you remove symbols that carry I think dark clouds, I think you change the temperature in the environment, and I think the removal of certain symbols will help put us on a pathway to move forward.

Does that mean every person who represents racism, bigotry and hate, the viewpoints of what some of us view that flag represents, does that mean their hearts and minds are going to change?

Absolutely not, but I think we have to make a step.

...for those who want to talk about the removal of monuments and symbols, at the end of the day, we need to use this as an opportunity to expand history.

As I said to you on the panel that night, we have a tendency to yell about certain aspects of our history and whisper about certain aspects.

We press the play button on some and we press the ignore button on others.

There's so many things that brought this state together that have brought our communities together.

So many people, why not celebrate them?

Why not uplift them?

Instead, we tend to find ways and reasons to celebrate people who lost.

The generals and some of the voices that we celebrate not just in South Carolina, but around the country are people who lost the war that they believed was on the right side of history.

So, why should we be celebrating losers.

I don't think that's what the American experiment is about.

...I do not think that was what the South Carolina promise represents.

>> Yeah, definitely.

That heritage versus hate argument too, and something that we see.

...looking at the context of these statues, specifically on State House grounds, I know I talked to Dr. Lydia Mattice Brandt.

She's a USC professor who just came out with a book called State House Grounds, a Guide Book.

...it really gives the context as to when these statues went up and why, ...what the mood of the country, what the mood of the state was at the time.

...a lot of this was Jim Crow Era.

Someone called this Jim Crow Era propaganda that's still on our State House grounds.

...there's a lot of differences there and how people perceive these monuments.

...research by professors Gibbs Knotts and Scott Huffmon, who were also on the show recently, kind of actually backed up the fact that it is more about hate than it is heritage, just based on their polling and how they made people associate with either if they associate more with racial resentment versus southern identity.

...it kind of surprising that, that is kind of bearing witness to these truths that we kind of maybe assumed, but ...now you're getting this factual data to show that, yes people do have some issues with these...monuments and that the history is the most important part of this.

...that's what seems to be lacking the most.

>> Gavin, I'll tell you this, some people use the word heritage, as a cover up for hate in the same way that some people use the word patriotism as a cover up for racism.

I think we just have to move past that if we want to keep getting better as a country, the browning of America is happening, the experiences and the stories that have been untold for a long time, will be forced to be told.

So, the question is will South Carolina be a part of the change?

Or will we continue to resist change?

There's nothing, I can do about the experience of my parents or even my sharecropping grandparents, but here's what I can do and here's what you can do too, and all the good folks at ETV who are watching this program, we can change what the future conversations are like around history that are yet to be told.

There's so many people we should be celebrating, both young and not so young, both black and white, people whose names have sometimes been lost in history, but they have actually changed the course of history.

Those are the things we need to be (talking) about.

History keeps updating itself every day, most like most of our Mac books, and we have to keep up with the time, if we want to make sure we're on the path to be a better, moving towards a more perfect union.

>> ...Antjuan, with just less than a minute left, I want to ask you, what keeps you optimistic?

Obviously, ...you've kind of just alluded to a lot of that, right there, but do you see any changes, any possibility for changes at least at the State House level here.

Is that going to be something we're going to have to wait two...ten years from now for people that are interested in seeing some of these names be relegated just to the pages of history or maybe just museums instead of straight out front on the State House lawn?

>> Gavin, the reason, I'm so hopeful and optimistic, I'm a 36 year old Black guy from rural South Carolina in Swansea.

My mother and father did not go to anybody's college, but I remind you and I remind everyone I can, they were better than my grandparents generation, because at least they could spell college.

Now, at the end of the day, it's been the idea in communities that look like mine, that we have an obligation and the responsibility to be better than the previous generations, and so that alone gives me hope.

The fact that you and I can have this conversation and how we've made some adjustments, as we say in yoga and made some improvements.

We made some, but we have some more to make and that alone gives me hope.

Will it happen overnight?

No.

Did these things occur overnight?

No.

...if every day we keep getting better and every day we keep having conversations, both the conversations that divide us, but yell loudly, more about those, unite us, I believe change will come.

>> Very well said ...he had...some more time looking into our history, as well, because it's all, always on replay, for sure.

That's Antjuan Seawright.

He is the founder and CEO of Blue Print Strategy.

He's also a CBS news contributor.

Thank you so much, Antjuan.

>>Thank you for having me, Gavin.

>> Joining me now to discuss the failed congressional Police Reform bill is Marq Claxton, he's a former NYPD detective, and he's Director of Public Relations and Public Affairs for the Black Law Enforcement Alliance.

Marq, thanks for coming back to This Week in South Carolina.

>> It's great to be on.

Thank you so much for the invitation.

>> ...Marq, let's start right off.

Give me your initial thoughts on what you thought when you heard that those negotiations in Congress had broken down.

Obviously, we saw the House passed that bill over to the Senate, where negotiators talked about it for months, including lead Senate negotiator, Tim Scott, who's...one of our senators.

What did you think, when we saw those negotiations break down there for months?

>> I wasn't surprised at all as a matter of fact.

I was surprised that the negotiations went on for as long as they did go on.

It was clear from the very beginning, given the political leanings of Senator Scott and the preference of some conservatives, in regards to any possibility of police reform, that it was an uphill battle, and that it was unlikely that there would be any substantive or significant police reform bill coming out of the Senate.

...it was just very unlikely to begin with.

So, I wasn't surprised at all.

>> Yeah, it was kind of interesting too, because you did have... two major police unions signing onto that bill.

You saw Democrats drop their qualified immunity movement, and also getting rid of Section 242 of the Civil Rights Act, which...would have resulted in officers facing expanded civil or criminal accountability.

Then, you had Senator Tim Scott, in the end saying this bill was going to end up de-funding police departments, when actually it was just really tying federal funding, federal grant funding to departments if they wish to get rid of choke holds or certain other tactics that have become controversial in this day and age.

So, again, it sounds like it was all political theater to you.

>> Yeah, it felt - it really fell victim to talking points and hash tags as opposed to really making an honest attempt to improve the profession of policing ...and I think part of the complication that it had... it was named after George Floyd.

So, that didn't start it off in the right leg for so many more, who are more conservative, so to speak, but when you deal with issues such as qualified immunity, you're always going to run into a brick wall when it comes to the police, police nationwide.

It's just part of the policing culture is to be very defensive and to expect that everything should revolve around the profession of policing and all protections that are out there should be heaped upon them, the police officers, even when perhaps there are more efficient ways to operate.

It's just the nature of the beast, and it was no surprise.

Tim Scott put on a good theater act and good negotiation, head fakes, etcetera, but I think, ultimately, as we saw, there was really, not a firm decision on the right to engage in honest negotiations and significant compromise.

<Gavin> ...Marq, what do you make of all the momentum, that we saw in the wake of the death of George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd last May 2020, and all of the... the social uprisings, the movements, we saw in South Carolina, across the nation and the world?

Where does that momentum go at this point?

...we did see it start to unfortunately, fade into the background, with the elections, with the insurrection, with the pandemic, any number of other issues that really kind of took the forefront, this past year.

Where do you see it going, especially if we couldn't get something done after such a huge year and a terrible tragedy?

>> I think the movement, in general, has lost some momentum, and that is significant, because if you lose that momentum, you start...to walk back some of the successes that you had.

...there are different jurisdictions, who have attempted to change, and modify how they go about dealing with addressing and supporting the police, but I think once you lose the momentum of the protests on the streets and the vocal advocacy, and even some legislative advocacy, you start to walk back all the significant or substantive changes and improvements that have been made and that's where we are right now ...but that's not new.

These kind of reactions to police criminality, or killings by police, especially ...in communities of color, it tends to be these kind of episodic responses... and so it's consistent with what has happened historically, which is why it tends not to be much movement as far as reform is concerned, because people have to go back to their lives and their focus and focus on other areas and you lose momentum in the course of a movement.

>> Do you think, it got sabotaged maybe, self-sabotaged in any ways?

I remember that - the phrase de-fund the police, even Congressman Jim Clyburn, was like stop saying that phrase, it's not helping anyone.

It's terrifying people and then, you have people like Senator Tim Scott who is saying that phrase is the reason why this whole thing failed in the first place, even though we're talking about grants tied to federal grants, tied to tactics being eliminated at the local level, something he previously supported.

...do you think that there were some sort of issues there, when it became with these protests?

I mean a lot of times ...there was some bounds associated with protests.

There were a lot of peaceful protests going on, but do think that some of that also didn't help the situation even though it was just... so much momentum at the time?

>> I think what... has happened is and this may be a positive out of this entire movement issue, is that activists have come to the realization that it may not be the wisest thing to be led or directed or named after a hash tag.

...take time to lay out your position, so that there is not even an opportunity to misconstrue what it is you're ultimately after.

I think the de-fund the police hash tag, which is what it was, was something that was manipulated by more conservative folk and twisted and turned it into something absolutely different than I think a lot of people who initially may have been supportive of the concept, meant by it.

I think it would have been much more beneficial to those advocates who use that hash tag, to describe that, in large part, what they were talking about - well, redirecting resources or reallocating resources, as opposed to removing resources away from policing.

...quite frankly, most of the reform packages that are out there, including this Justice in Policing Act, actually would result in net benefits, in addition, to funding for police agencies when you're talking about additional training or reporting requirements, you're talking about ...you have to fund those things.

So, in reality, ...all of the reform packages would require some additional funding, which is counter intuitive to anything that could be compared to de-fund the police.

>> So Marq, it sounded like early on that this... major changes at the federal level just won't be the way things get done when it comes to police reform.

We have seen a lot of states, a lot of cities take up different approaches to this, ...especially in Colorado getting rid of qualified immunity, having different people respond to different situations.

A lot of times officers are going to mental health crises that they have to deal with and it's not really the best situation for them to be handling it when someone else maybe more qualified should be doing that.

...there's a lot of movements in different parts of the country, a little piecemeal approach at this point.

I guess we'll see what happens and maybe some things can be best applied to other states and maybe federally going forward.

...what do you see at this point when it comes to places like South Carolina?

I know we had a bill go through the House Judiciary Committee this year that basically created a minimum set of standards.

A lot of police departments, small police departments don't even have the minimum set of standards.

It seems like we need to start at the small... areas first before we even get to some of these bigger issues.

Where do we go from here when it comes to some reforms, at least at the state level?

>> I think we decide to engage in some kind of local reforms and amendments and additions and be creative in our way of approaching this police management issue and I think what will happen is if you deal with these issues locally and you start to implement some modifications and some changes on the local level and they proved to be effective, you will see that other agencies, other localities will adapt or adopt those principles that you have created.

I think it's hugely significant what some of the larger police departments may be doing on a local level, like for example what Chicago may ultimately do, or what New York may ultimately do, or LAPD may ultimately do, will be much more significant and impactful and immediate than even with a federal reform package have been.

So, I think it's important that on a local level, the agencies and the municipalities begin to construct what policing is and what it should be moving forward and what's going to lead us into the next century, if you will, but let's be clear about something, all of the ideas and the reform packages, and principles that people are discussing have to really take into account the history of policing, you have to be honest about its impact on black and brown communities, primarily, in order to be successful.

>> ...again that's something that you see at the community level with those police chiefs and sheriffs really making that... end roads, making those end roads in those communities and having dialogue with those communities, especially during difficult times.

...another big issue with that federal bill would have been some sort of national database where you can track bad cops, know how these folks are moving around, because a lot of times, if you resign from the police department before something actually goes through with a disciplinary hearing, for example, you can make your way on to another department.

How do you see tackling that bad apple issue, which is unfortunately, prevalent in the community?

>> ...I think that's one of those things that you could reach consensus on.

I think in large part, the police organizations are not opposed to identifying individuals who are quote unquote "the bad apples", if you will, and why because often times those people are the ones that these labor unions and organizations have to spend so much money in defending and protecting, and those people who jeopardize the integrity of any agency.

So, you'll find that even the police agencies would be supportive of identifying bad apples and creating this database of quote unquote "bad apples" because it would support their position that they've taken all along, that "Hey, it's not a really institutional systemic problem.

It's just a few quote unquote "bad apples."

So, if that's the case, I don't see how they can actually oppose a database that would identify those bad apples and prevent them from... coming into this most noble and honorable profession, and of course, that has been proposed by a lot of the advocates as a way to prevent people from spreading their cancer into the next community.

...you're right there's been so many instances and cases, tragic cases of individual police officers who engage in this kind of criminal behavior, and then when you dig into the files, you'll find that they engaged in similar behavior in other departments, and there was no database that the next agency had to refer to.

So, that would be a huge significant step in reforming police.

>> Marq, we have about less than a minute left, I want to...get your thoughts really quick about ...there's been an uptick in crime in the country and in this state, reporting wise.

Do you fear that this will be a result, how this could affect these debates when we talk about police reforms and we talk about people saying, Hey, they want to lessen our ability to do our job and look there's already, you know upticks in crime, already?

How do you see those numbers affecting the debate going forward?

>> Well, I think the police agencies, the unions, if you will, some of the police advocacy organizations, these...localizations really use the data for their own benefit.

I believe that we should use the data... as a drunk uses the light pole.

...that's more for support than illumination.

...that's because a lot of the data that comes out is really unverified and unaudited ...so we are depending on unaudited data, and each side will use that data for its benefit.

I don't really trust after the data, absolutely.

So, there seems to be an apparent increase in some areas of criminality, but there is some consistency in other areas.

So, I think we just have to be careful about using that data.

<Gavin> Take it with a grain of salt... Marq Claxton.

He's a former NYPD detective and he's the current Director of Public Relations and Public Affairs for the Black Law Enforcement Alliance.

For South Carolina ETV, I'm Gavin Jackson.

Be well, South Carolina