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[gentle music] -Hello, I'm JJ.

-And I'm Natalie, and we're the sisters from the Confessions of a Reluctant Caregiver podcast.

Welcome to Heroes Caring for Heroes , a special program honoring the caregivers of our active duty military and veterans.

-That's right.

Did you know there are over 105 million unpaid caregivers in the United States, among them over 14.3 million who are supporting our active duty military and veterans.

-Every day, caregivers worldwide balance their own lives while providing essential support to their loved ones.

Who are these caregivers?

They're husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, children, extended family, and friends.

-We are proud to share these caregiving journeys, the good, the bad, and the completely unexpected.

-The caregivers featured on this show also have corresponding podcast episodes that dive deeper into their stories, along with educational episodes.

-These stories and their organizations that support them are online at confessions ofareluctantcaregiver.com.

-Our host for this important discussion is Julie Newman, an Emmy Award-winning producer and 25-year journalist.

It's a topic that's close to her heart.

-Her father served in the US Air Force, and her mother cared for him through his battle with cancer.

-Now, let's go to Julie for this important conversation.

-Thanks so much, JJ and Natalie, and welcome to Heroes Caring for Heroes.

It's a chance to recognize the sacrifice our military makes for our country, and to recognize the seen and unseen scars of war.

But our focus here today is on the caregivers of those on that journey.

And I am so honored to sit down today with four families, courageously sharing their caregiving journey with me, and a very candid and open conversation about the ups and downs of being a caregiver.

So welcome to you all, and thank you for being here.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-I'd like to first introduce Dr. Qwynn Galloway-Salazar.

Thanks for being here.

-Absolutely.

It's a pleasure to be here.

I'm Qwynn, please feel free to call me.

-Okay, not Dr. Qwynn.

-Just call me Qwynn.

I'm an Army veteran.

I am married to a retired combat veteran who I have been caring for.

I'm the founder of a small organization called In Their Honor, where we honor the lives of veterans through the end of life.

And we support their caregivers along their journeys.

-And Bob Evans, can you introduce yourself?

-Yes, I'm Chaplain Bob Evans, and I was a Navy Chaplain for 25 and a half years, and then worked in the VA as a Chief Operating Officer, and also as the Chief Chaplain.

I care for my wife who's an Army veteran of 27 years.

Her name's Gretchen, and Gretchen is a very vital and vibrant woman who suffered, she was a Command Sergeant Major for all forces, garrison and forward operating bases in Afghanistan, and she was blown up there.

She lost her hearing there, and suffered TBI, and also various other maladies.

So I serve as her caregiver.

I thought I was just a faithful husband, but nope.

I realized later that I was a caregiver, and caregiving can take its toll.

-That is a really important point, I feel like.

You don't always know that you have actually fallen into the role of a caregiver until you stop and step back for a second, and say wait a second, I'm actually not just an emotional support for my loved one, wife, husband, or child, but you're actually in a really specific role as a caregiver.

That's a great point, and one we'll get back to later.

Thanks, Bob.

Okay, and sitting next to you is the lovely Crystal Lane.

Hi, Crystal.

-Hi, thank you so much for having us.

It's a honor to be here.

J.P. Lane is my husband who was severely wounded in Afghanistan by a 200-pound IED, and where he became a double amputee, and a list of other injuries, but I've been caregiving for him since we got together.

He was already an amputee before, the accident happened before we met, and I chose to be a caregiver.

I just had a servant heart, and I knew that this is what I wanted to do.

And now we're going seven years strong.

-Wonderful.

Thank you so much.

And Thom DeLeuw, welcome.

-Thank you very much, it's good to be here.

I'm Thom DeLeuw, I'm the father of Jack DeLeuw, who's a combat veteran, but his injuries were sustained in a motorcycle accident.

But there came a time that he and his fiancee broke up, and I was just the natural selection, 'cause he was my baby.

-It's really interesting how each of you came into your caregiving stories in a different way.

As you were saying, you, you know, your son ended up, he thought he had a caregiver that, you know, he could depend on, and then that role needed filling.

-Yes, and it's, he was, like I say, he was always, he and I have always been real close.

So when she left, I'm retired police, and I was working construction as a superintendent.

And when he left, well, when she left, it was, I mean, there was just no choice.

It was just he and I, so I just quit my job and moved in with him, and it's been on ever since.

-And, you know, quitting your job, a job in law enforcement, that is more than a job, really, it's a career.

It's a calling, and a way of life, if I may, leads me to my first real topic of conversation, because all of your choices to, or whether it was a choice or not, all of your roles as caregiver was really a life-altering shift for you.

And so, I wanna know, in addition to being Thom's dad, Crystal, you know, JP's wife, you know, each of your roles, how do you maintain your own sense of identity and not just get lost in being something for someone else?

-That's a great question.

-Right?

-Really.

And what I found is that I have to take time for myself.

There's an image that I've learned in my years of ministry that we're very much like a pot of tar.

That if heat is laid below it, it will either bubble over or it will explode.

I don't wanna be the caregiver who explodes.

And there are times when I have the rumblings of boiling over, and I do, in fact, sometimes boil over.

And I know when I get close to those points, I am a board-certified chaplain for hospital ministry and the like, and I found that I needed to call my clinical supervisor and get that perspective on how I was acting and the scenarios I was encountering.

But I also find that I have to journal, I have to sing, I have to dance, I have to go out into nature and fly fish.

And some of these I do with Gretchen.

But I find that I need space for grace.

-That's a beautiful way to put it.

-I love that.

I love that space for grace, right?

It's being intentional with self-care, right?

It's kinda like when we get on that plane.

That mask comes down, you have to make sure you take care of yourself first to be able to take care of the person you're caring for.

Art is my thing.

-Yeah, 'cause I imagine it could be easy to lose yourself in your role... -Yeah.

-...to another person.

-Yeah.

-For sure, and I think we, at some point in our caregiving, it's like we have.

I know personally for me, at first when I first got together with JP, I completely lost myself.

What was Crystal's favorite color?

Or Crystal's things to do for fun, a hobby?

We do lose ourselves because we come totally upon, caregiving as, you know, first thing, right?

And self-care is important.

I looked up a study that one out of three Americans actually feel guilty for taking self-care.

And that's when I realized, I'm like, man, I have to prioritize because my spouse, JP, who I'm caring for, deserves the best version of me.

And if I can't take care of myself, then how do I expect to care for him at a 100 percent full of my capability?

-And y'all, listen to y'all.

It's heartfelt.

But I just felt like I've just been so fortunate with how little, how little of a chore it's been.

Not that it's been a chore for you, but how little of a chore it's been for me just to, I'm just taking care of my boy.

And he is not a whiner, he never cries about anything.

He doesn't need or want for anything.

I mean, he's a tough, resilient little kid.

So, and I mean, they all are.

But it's just, for me, it's just been so easy.

I mean, I was a policeman 34 years, and was in the Army six, and I just, so I look at things, I look at tragedy through a different spectrum than a lot of people.

[Julie] Jack DeLeuw has always had a sense of adventure .

-Since I was a little kid, I was eight or nine years old and we were living in Greensboro and we were watching the movie Black Hawk Down .

And I remember looking at him and going, Dad, that's what I wanna do at like eight or nine years old.

And he goes, what, you wanna be an actor?

And I was like, no, I don't have the discipline for that.

I wanna be in the Army.

[Julie] It's a dream that he worked hard for, including jump school, to become a paratrooper in the United States Army.

-There's no feeling in the world like it.

Like the plane's flying 150-plus miles an hour and then you just jump out zero wind, into the wind, and it's just, it's undescribable.

I've been banged up on jumps, but never once hurt me.

And then motorcycles were the, my mortal enemy, I guess.

[Julie] Jack's first motorcycle accident was October 30th, 2015.

-I hit and killed an 1,800-pound cow, and only in Texas can that have legitimacy to it.

And spent 21 days in a medicinal coma, came out, fought for two years.

They tried to separate, medically separate me from the Army, and I just fought it and got to stay in the Army.

[Julie] But it was his second motorcycle crash in Fayetteville, North Carolina, nearly five years later on October 16th, 2020, that left him paralyzed from the chest down.

-I was just driving home from dinner one night, and on a backcountry road, in one of the, in this little strip of the road, they had multiple houses that their driveways dump out right onto the road.

And I was just driving home, and then the car was backed out of its driveway.

I swerved to miss it, went into a ditch, and went over my handlebars, and burst fracture in my T7 vertebrae in my spine.

[Julie] But I've come to learn that even in the face of unbearable tragedy, the sense of humor in this father-son duo runs deep.

-It was the second one, so it was no big deal, really.

-We were accustomed to it.

-We just opened another beer and was just like... No, I mean, he's my baby, he's my boy.

So it was, it was again, the first one was the worst one.

This one, I was just hoping it wasn't near as serious as the first.

The first one, he shattered both forearms and got a real bad concussion.

But this one, this one was a lot more devastating.

[Julie] " My boy."

Those words have bonded the pair since day one.

After his son's accident, Thom slipped into caregiving without thinking twice.

-I was the only one that would or could or wanted to.

So I quit my job and moved in with him, and it's been fun and games ever since.

[Julie] It's been four years since the crash that changed both of their lives forever.

But neither of them is giving up hope.

-They had to fuse my sixth and my eighth vertebrae with braces and loads of screws and rods and stuff.

And my spinal cord is perfectly intact.

It's just there's a bruise going across it.

That's what's causing the paraplegia.

But they, he said, he's like, if anyone, 'cause at the time I was 26, 25, 26 years old, and he said, as long as I stayed as active as I was, and he said, my age was a big factor.

He said, if anyone can walk again, I'm a perfect candidate.

If you just sit in that chair, you'll stay in that chair for the rest of your life.

'Cause if your muscles die, there's no getting 'em back.

I competed at the 2022 Warrior Games.

It was kinda like the Paralympics, but for only former military service members.

I did archery, rowing, air rifles, hand cycling, and oh, and then shot put and discus.

I really, or I account all my personality, my mentality and stuff to him.

Because growing up, he never let me quit anything.

-I love hanging out with him every day and shooting and doing what we do.

But I just wish he could walk.

-I find your story in particular so inspiring because, and I love that you call him Dougan.

I know him as Jack, which is his given name.

So I find it so inspiring because when you see him and he's paralyzed from the chest down, I think most unassuming Americans would kind of be like, oh, you know, poor guy's in a wheelchair.

Think about his disabilities.

But in my conversation with the two of you, I was smiling the whole time because what I felt from you was really a focus on his abilities and all the things he can do.

-He doesn't want anybody feeling bad for him.

He just said, that'll just make him crack up and joke.

He just wants to be one of everybody.

He just, he loves everybody and just wants to get along and be the, you know, just tell jokes.

And there's not, I've just never seen the downside to him.

He's never, I've never found him moping or pouting, nothing.

He's just, he's just been tough.

And then, you know, meeting y'all's spouses and stuff like that, it's, yeah, it's just, your husband's a nut.

Your wife's very gracious.

-But she's a pistol.

-Oh, you can tell, you can tell.

-Her call sign was Spitfire, and she is a spitfire.

-And JP, I mean, these are all wounded veterans and stuff like that, but all of them are just so resilient.

-We are fortunate, though, because our veterans have found their passion and purpose, and a new place in service.

A lot of our veterans do not have that same underpinning nor the same constitution of resiliency and grit and determination and exploration that our spouses and our children, our family members, have.

[Julie] In 2003, in the midst of war in Afghanistan, Gretchen, the Army Command Sergeant Major, in charge of all troops on the ground, and Robert, the Navy Senior Chaplain for all of Afghanistan, found each other.

[Gretchen] Robert left before I did.

I didn't have an end date, but Robert had fulfilled his combat tour.

-And then she came home on furlough.

During that time, I got to see her, and after being grilled by her sister and her friends, I asked her to marry me.

[Julie] But in 2005, Gretchen suffered devastating injuries when her troops were attacked by enemy fire.

[Gretchen] I was going out to this forward operating base to get a little morale talk.

So I jumped out of the helicopter and all the troops started coming up to me when mortar fire started coming in.

It was coming in like rain.

It was peppering us.

So I started yelling to the troops, "Get in the bunkers, get in the bunkers!"

But before I could get myself in a bunker, a round landed to my right.

Eyewitnesses said that it picked me up and it threw me horizontally through the air until I hit one of those concrete bunkers headfirst.

And they put me into a coma to do an evaluation of all my injuries, and they woke me up that day.

And that's when I found out that I was deaf and that my military career was over.

You know, and the first thing I did was notify Robert that you're under no obligation for your proposal.

-It was the spirit of the person, the mind of the person, the beauty of the woman that I had come to know.

And in that situation, there was no turning back for me.

[Julie] After Gretchen's first year of therapy in 2006, the couple married.

-Asking for their help was hard, and it felt demeaning to me, and it made me feel like I was helpless.

It made me feel like that I was dependent on Robert and that he was gonna have this life of being this caregiver.

-But the truth be told is, I couldn't do it all.

And I wasn't taking very good care of myself.

Gretchen had a culminating event.

And that was when she was out running one day.

-It was in Atlanta, and the traffic was on my right.

I was on a sidewalk.

And a guy on a bicycle was riding behind me.

So he yells out, "Passing you on your left."

Well, I never heard that.

So, when I stepped into his path, he hit me.

And he actually threw me into that traffic that I was avoiding.

And a guy driving a black Mercedes slammed on his brake, and he gets out and he says, "I almost killed you."

And I'm laying there and I thought, "Really, I could have died right here, and it would have solved all my problems."

[Julie] But through that near-death experience, Gretchen was able to reignite her inner fight to live.

-That blast took my hearing and part of my face, and it took part of my body parts, and it took a lot of things from it.

But what that blast did not take from me was Gretchen.

[Julie] The next turning point was when she sent an email to America's VetDogs asking if they could train a hearing service dog to help her.

Now, Rusty is her constant companion, alerting her to sounds that are important to her safety and mitigating her PTSD symptoms, but most importantly, giving her back her independence.

-He's a big teddy bear, he's wonderful.

He saves my life every day, both in deeds and with his love.

-And so, she started to rise up out of this depression and live again.

[Julie] Being fit and having grit and incredible athleticism is something that has always been a big part of Gretchen's life.

-They were gonna bring back the world's toughest race, it was called the Eco-Challenge.

They used to do it in the '90s all the time, okay.

It's just ten crazy days doing the most crazy things in the world.

[Julie] So she gathered a team of wounded veterans and formed an adaptive athletic team and sent an email to the show, produced by Mark Burnett and hosted by Bear Grylls.

-And I said, we're not disabled, we're mixed ability.

For every ability we have lost in combat or otherwise, we have added an ability.

Yes, I'm deaf, but I lip read.

Yes, my person lost the right side use of his body because of an IED, you know, but he's incredibly strong.

[Julie] So in 2019, the team of five traveled to Fiji to compete in an 11-day challenge, tackling 400 miles of ocean, mountains, and rivers.

They say they didn't do so well in that race, but they did accomplish their goal to compete.

-The rope team is a very important image in our life because unless you're tethered to someone else, you're likely to fall.

And we all fall and fall short.

And so, we're able to pick each other up again.

And I'm just thankful for all those people who have helped us along the way so that she can be the miraculous woman that she is.

That reciprocal relationship is essential.

And I think you've got that, and I think we all do.

But, to expand it creates strength and endurance and capability that some people have not experienced.

And so, I encourage others to use those resources, find those special, essential people.

We call them in the military, essential tasks, essential people, mission essential people.

We need those people in our lives.

-You know, I think about, at one of our most difficult times when my husband first came out of the hospital.

And we had, my husband's in law enforcement as well, and we had guys from the department constantly checking in on us.

Being transparent and being vulnerable, I don't wear that well, but our community knew, our faith-based community, came and made sure we had food, came and took our kids out.

Like, we didn't have to say what we needed.

No one said to us, tell us what you need.

Tell us what you need.

I'm never gonna tell you.

-Besides, do you always know what you need?

-Absolutely not.

-Even if we did say what do you need?

Right?

-Yeah.

-But my friends knew we needed someone to give us a sense of normalcy.

The department knew, seeing some guys in uniforms while my husband could not wear his uniform, would cheer him up.

Our pastor also served coincidentally with my husband, and he would come by.

And when I say it did something for my spirit, because I didn't want to burden anyone and say, "Geez, I wish I could have someone help me do something."

People just did it.

-One thing I've always prided on myself is doing the job.

I don't care about the accolades.

I don't care about the attaboys.

I don't care about the awards.

My job was to take you somewhere, bring everybody back.

[Julie] Jose Salazar is a 25-year army veteran who served in the Military Police Corps, a career that led him to combat zones in Bosnia and Iraq.

But injuries from the battlefield aren't always visible.

-I watched one of my young soldiers that I actually brought into the military lose his life over there.

Well, that was my one failure in my career.

I brought this young kid over there who I knew him, I knew his family, I knew his wife, I knew everybody.

And he was like attached to my hip and I was on a mission with him.

In hindsight, it was supposed to be my vehicle that got hit, not his.

They switched us around to put him at the front and put me in the back.

I was the senior person, I'm usually in the front.

And I always ask myself, why me?

Why wasn't it me?

It was my vehicle that should have been hit by that tank.

It was my vehicle.

And where he got hurt at was in my seat.

So it hurts.

[Julie] Qwynn and Jose have been together for 20 years and they have six daughters in their blended family.

And Qwynn herself served in the United States Army for five years.

When she came off active duty, she got her PhD and became an end-of-life doula.

So when Jose's unit was called to deploy again, they made the difficult decision that it was time for him to retire from the Army.

-And we made the decision that policing is what he knew, so he would go back to policing.

And so last year, end of August, beginning of September, 2023, I get a call from him.

And he says, I'm on my way home.

I'm not okay.

-I'm a transport deputy for our county sheriff.

So I take people, juveniles and adults, from point A to point B, just every day.

That day, I just happened to be taking a juvenile back to his place of residence.

And just all of a sudden, I'm down a two-lane highway and I'm looking ahead and I'm like, okay, something is not right.

-So in short, we get to the hospital.

Luckily because he's law enforcement in our community, they knew who he was.

-My eyes are going here, there, and everywhere.

And next thing you know, I'm laying in the bed.

You know, they're trying to triage me and everything.

And they can't figure it out.

-He had what's called a sixth cranial nerve palsy, which means that there was a stroke in a nerve in his brain that severely impacted his vision.

So when he would look out, to him, it looked like, remember when we were kids, we used to have like kaleidoscopes?

That was everything that he saw.

And it affected the whole side of his face.

-The next day, I get to go finally get up out of the bed to go to the bathroom.

And I'm like, this is not, why is my face looking like this?

And my first thought process was, I'm done in law enforcement.

[Julie] Jose spent more than a week in the hospital, and the stroke had reversed itself, and his vision was back to normal in about a month.

But it was another three months before he was cleared by a neurological ophthalmologist to go back to work.

-I'm a former caregiver that's always on high alert because we know that he is susceptible to strokes for the rest of his life now.

[Thom DeLeuw] Well, he's a liked guy.

-He's a nut, though.

-'Cause I've seen other officers get put in the hospital and they were lucky if the nurses showed up.

They just, it depends on your personality.

He's a good, your husband's a nice guy.

I'm sure he had a lot of support.

-Speaking of really nice guys and having that demeanor that draws people to kind of uplift you, your husband is about the funniest person I've ever met in my entire life.

I mean, his, he's a double amputee.

And his sense of humor, not only about himself, but about everything.

He's such a jokester.

-He is.

I think he always says laughter's the best medicine, and he takes that to heart.

And he just, the moment he opens his eyelids, I mean, he's literally cracking a joke.

And honestly, that's made my caregiver journey even a little easier and brings joy.

And I want to serve him in that capacity because he just brings so much light into my life.

And he does not, and we, all of us, I'm sure we know that we don't allow their disability to define who they are because they are more than their disability.

And that's what JP, you know, I tell him like, oh yeah, you should do standup comedy.

And he's like, oh, no, that sounds like it hurts.

I can't stand for long, you know.

And he's, I'm like, okay, sit-down comedy.

Is that better, you know?

So he just, I just love him to death.

He just, you know, he's always putting a smile, not just to my face, but to all those around him.

[Julie] The chemistry between Crystal and JP is powerful.

And it was instant from the moment they met at the gym.

-Oh, I was like, I just want to let you know, you're doing this tricep cable workout better than most of the dudes in here.

-Yeah.

-That's all I had.

-And it was great.

And then, when he walked away, that's when I was like, I looked and I was like, oh my goodness, he's on prosthetics.

He has no legs.

And I was, yeah.

-What people don't know is I was previously married and that didn't end well.

And that was at the beginning of all of this, actually.

And I thought that, like the negative thoughts that were running through my head at that time was nobody's gonna love you, looking like that, like you're a monster.

No one's gonna want to care for you.

And that's what I thought for years and years and years.

I prayed to meet my future wife at the gym so I don't have to force her to work out with me.

I want her to have curly hair 'cause I kind of dig that.

And I want her to have a strong relationship with the Lord as well.

And after praying that, she shows up at my gym a week later.

[Julie] But adding the role of caregiver to a relationship also adds a level of stress.

[Crystal] It was a lot to learn at first, so we had some bumps on the road.

And we share that with other couples, not to throw in the towel and not to give up because the situation is difficult.

[Julie] JP says he felt called to join the military because of the terror attacks of September 11th, 2001.

-I was actually in eighth grade that year, and I made a promise to myself I was gonna serve and protect the United States.

So, when I was old enough, I signed up for the Army and chose to be a combat engineer, which ultimately I'd be doing what's called route clearance, searching for bombs, taking care of that IED threat and making sure everybody could go safe.

[Julie] The armored truck that he was driving was built to withstand a blast.

In fact, he had encountered an IED on two previous missions, but the explosion on July 2nd, 2011 nearly cost him his life.

[JP Lane] I volunteered to go on that mission that day.

And as I was out, my truck ends up getting blown up by a 200-pound directional charged IED.

My left femur snapped in half, my pelvis snapped in half.

My spine dislocated from my pelvis.

My right arm snapped in half, 90 degrees.

My right middle finger was amputated.

My forefront teeth were knocked out when my face hit the steering wheel.

My brain had flattened to the size of a pancake and swelled against my skull 'cause my head smashed the windshield of my truck and actually shattered it.

And everything inside my torso was destroyed except for my heart and my left lung.

So they had to cut me open and go in and fix everything.

I was in a coma for a month and a half.

My dad tells me that there was one moment where he would lean over and say, "If God's calling you home, don't fight.

Go home."

And it was hard for him to say that.

But he didn't want me in that state anymore.

[Julie] JP's recovery has been miraculous.

Not only did he survive that explosion, but he's thriving.

-I got the prosthetics and I just started working very hard at walking properly, doing the best I could, and then getting into sports.

It was just amazing because we found out that there's this huge competition called the Warrior Games.

And I made the army team and helped our wheelchair basketball team go to silver.

And I brought home three golds, three silvers, and one bronze from the Warrior Games alone.

[Julie] JP's passions seem endless.

He's also an author, a musician, and a public speaker.

But Crystal also pursues her own dreams.

This May, she'll graduate with her bachelor's degree in psychology.

-That was the drive that my mom had gave me.

She was like, "You need to get an education."

And I was like, "Okay, Mom, I'll do it."

So during COVID, I'm gonna focus on myself and get school done.

And sure, I did.

So it was a blessing, though, because unfortunately, my mom passed with cancer.

So she didn't get to see me finish.

But now I get to finish.

-But in the middle of all of that, she's always taking care of me, having to make sure I'm good for the day, throughout the day.

And for the last four years, she was doing that on top of having a full-time job, and going to school full-time.

-Thank you for acknowledging that.

I've done a lot.

[Julie] And through it all, they have each other, turning a devastating injury into love and light.

-I think laughter is the best medicine, and I'm grateful that God literally shows that in every part of my life, because it's true.

I'm on zero medications, but I laugh all the time.

-You know, one of the things that you guys shared with me in your story that I was so moved by was he was talking about another patient in Fisher House with him at the same time, who he found as a source of inspiration and light.

And he just told it in such a beautiful way.

But I think what all of the people you care for need to stop and recognize is that they are probably a source of light to somebody else who, and they don't even know it, right?

So, you never know who you're gonna touch along the journey of life.

-Yeah, and we all go through tough times, and even strangers, you know, that we come cross paths with.

And we don't know their story, but being able to share our own story, it just breaks the ice and allows them to easily, I mean, we've seen countless people just start sharing their own story with us because we were willing to open up.

And even JP says that it's even more healing for him to share it than those receive it.

And so I think it's just a blessing that he continues to do that.

Same for all of us, and you know, your son, he's a goofball.

I mean, the moment we met.

[Thom DeLeuw] You don't have to be nice.

-[laughing] But it's just great to have that.

I think that just changes the atmosphere and the environment that we're in.

This serious topic could bring so much light.

-I found that when, like, we go places, we'll go to little drinking establishments, we won't call them bars, but we'll go to a... And people are always, until they get to know my son, they're always, 'cause I'm always there, 'cause you're not gonna mess with my son.

But people will look at him and, you know, they're real gentle to, you know, not get too close to him.

I mean, I've never been hurt like that, and so I can't imagine, JP especially.

I mean, you know, if I was an athlete and then, all of a sudden, lost my legs.

Or, you know, your wife, you know, to losing her hearing and the TBI.

And it's just amazing how tough the humans are that they can take these incidents and go forward, and not give up.

-Yeah, and you mentioned Gretchen's hearing loss.

And so, some of the injuries, especially with your son and your husband, are quite visible, especially if they're wearing shorts.

You know, in a wheelchair or with prosthetics, and it's, people outwardly and immediately know that there's an issue.

But with both of your spouses, it's not as obvious.

And so, they face difficulties that other people may not know that they're going through and aren't even aware of it.

-And I think that points out how we need to approach everybody in the whole world, and I use three Ls.

You've gotta listen to them, you've gotta learn about them, and then you've gotta love on them.

But that takes time, and so, you need to have that moment with that person as you face them or you meet them, and allow yourself to be open, and they will then receive you and share with you.

[Qwynn] You know what's interesting when you talk about learn, right.

I think it was maybe about a month or so ago, I was sharing with Gretchen and Bob, I was on a flight.

And there was a young lady sitting next to me, beautiful young lady sitting next to me.

And an announcement was going on on the plane.

And, you know, on the flight, on the headrest, there's like a little screen, and it said, "Attention."

And she looks at me, and she's doing this.

And immediately, one of the first people I think of is Gretchen, and I'm like, holy smokes, she's deaf.

She can't hear this announcement.

I don't know how to sign, so I grab my iPad, and I'm taking notes for her.

But when you think about disabilities as a way of saying, how can we look at your ability, but how can we learn from your lived experience how we can do better, right?

-So this is something you and I touched on earlier, but I'd like to do this in a group setting.

So your husband was taken to the hospital in an emergency situation.

It wasn't anything you were prepared to, you know, it was, something happened, and boom, you're in the hospital.

And looking back at your experience, you say, I wish at any given point during the time we were in the hospital, someone would have asked, have you served?

And how it would have changed his level of care, knowing what his background was.

-Absolutely.

I can't stress enough, and I say it to every provider that I meet.

For a moment, put your clipboard down.

When you think of a veteran who has experienced a degree of trauma, the beeps, the sudden noises, the jolts to wake you up just because you're trying to check his blood pressure, but now you've spiked his blood pressure because you've taken him someplace else.

You've activated him.

Many of our veterans have tattoos.

My husband has a huge pair of combat boots on his arms.

There was an IV right there.

And no one asked the question, have you served?

-Spending that time in that person's boots, so to speak.

And caregivers in particular, and I'm talking about the professional caregivers, are so limited by their timelines and their protocols that sometimes they don't take that moment.

And it's the outstanding doctor or nurse, and mostly it's the nurses who are really good at this, of spending time with that person and discovering who they are and what they are, and what their needs are.

And this is a central task in healthcare, just like it is for us, whether we know it or not, to get respite care.

And there's such a lack, a dearth of respite care available.

And while the VA has tried to create a program, it's not sustainable at this point in time, and it's not enough.

But we don't do anything well in terms of long-term care in the United States of America.

-Or elderly care, for that matter.

-[Bob] Yes.

-Yes.

And that is a wonderful point.

So we talked about how it's important to learn and ask questions, and be interested in people's stories.

And I a hundred percent agree with that.

But let me flip this up and ask you, do you feel like you have to explain to every single person, and tell your story to every single person who sees your son in a wheelchair?

-For me, personally, I have to be ready to just know that when I present myself outside, you know, of course, I'm Crystal first.

And then when JP's around, you know, they immediately don't think that I'm his caregiver, you know, if I'm just a friend or a wife.

You know, they don't even notice his prosthetics sometimes.

And so, I have to be aware.

You're kind of always on alert, I mean, wherever they go, because you just never know.

Something could happen out in the grocery store or, you know, shopping.

And yeah, you do have to kind of explain yourself again and again because they're just not aware.

But I'd rather educate them to know and learn because I want them to, you know, do better when they're with somebody else.

Or when they have young children and, you know, they're walking by and they're looking at JP and they wanna ask the question.

But Mom and Dad's like, no, don't stare, you know?

And I'm, JP's like, no, let them, let them ask.

Because I want them to know about his story, about his service to our country.

And so yeah, but I've learned to be, you know, okay with sharing.

-We have places, like Dougan, he's always in a wheelchair.

He's all wheeling around.

Little kids will walk up and they'll start staring at him and touching the wheelchair and stuff like that.

He'll grab one, and put it on his lap and wheel him around.

And at first the parents are, oh, like this.

But then, when they find out, hell, he's just a normal guy, he's just in a wheelchair.

-Well, just to, again, play devil's advocate, if my children climbed on his lap, my first concern, because I'm not in the world that you are and know your son's abilities and what, I would think that they were hurting him.

Because I don't know that everyone knows that if you lose muscle movement, you also lose feeling.

Do you have nerves?

Do you not?

I don't know.

And I would, my concern as a parent, if my child did that, was, oh, don't hurt him.

-And they all, the parents always show concerns.

It's, honey, no, no.

Sweetie, no.

And Dougan's going, no, no, we're good, we're good.

I mean, I got nothing from here down.

So he's, he's his own best ambassador.

It's just, people don't, they don't know.

They don't know how you got those injuries, how you sustain them, what you're doing.

It's all just really... and to what Bob said, it's just, we have to learn how to help them and how to, 'cause they don't want pity.

My son does not want any pity.

He does, if he doesn't want it, and if he can, he'll say, I got it, I got it.

Like somebody'll help him on the aisle.

He'll just say, dude, I got this.

And so he's kind of, I said, dude, let him help you.

He says, Dad.

I said, it's making them feel better.

So it's just, but you know, he does everything he can do, you know, damn be all.

But it's just, you know, what Bob and Qwynn are talking about, it's just caregiving is.

And fortunately for me, he and I have always been so close.

I just, I guess I don't need the respite.

I just, I always get these notices from caregivers.

You know, we can send somebody, we can do this, we can, I said, but you can't do for my son what I'm gonna do for my son.

-And I think that's what many of us fall into.

I thought myself to be just a loving husband.

And until about two years ago, I didn't even think about myself as a caregiver.

But then I recognized that there are some systemic issues that start to bubble up, and as an advocate for veterans and for first responders, my concern is, is that these are issues that we need to have on the table and availability made for our fellow caregivers who don't have a stipend, who do not have fiscal support, and have to go get the drugs at the pharmacy and have to make all these automobile runs, and run to the institution of your choice.

And this is costly.

It is time consuming.

It is daunting.

And it's hard work for many.

Those of us who have knowledge of the system, we can work the system a little bit easier than some others, but there are many who have no familiarity with the military, have no familiarity with the VA, have no familiarity with TRICARE or TriWest.

And so, it's a sudden shock.

And so, there's need for support and counseling and as religious communities coming together and other like agencies to come in and recognize caregivers as support.

I was fortunate that I was appointed to the Elizabeth Dole Foundation and became a fellow with them and found even more to realize that there are millions of caregivers just for veterans of all ages.

And their caregivers are of all ages.

And that was a shock to me.

I didn't think about children caring for their parents.

I didn't, it's like role reversal.

And so, I was blown away.

-If you look at the group we have here, half of you, Crystal and Bob, chose to take on these caregiving roles and married your spouses after their incident.

Accepted that role, married them, knowing everything that would be ahead of you.

Maybe you didn't know all of it.

-Right, all of it, yeah, not all of it.

-But you entered into it knowingly.

-Yeah, I was 22 years old when I met JP and I had just turned 22, like two weeks before we met.

And I didn't, you know, right away, of course, you fall in love, right, that just a honeymoon stage and you go, and then, you know, when we get home and it just, it hits, right, where when we first got together before we got married, he actually just laid out these, you know, this is me, this is my, you know, because he said, okay, you can walk out the door now.

Expecting that it was just overwhelming and too much because he was previously married.

And he was, you know, and she left, she could not handle the situation.

And so, of course, there's this brick wall for JP to know that, you know, is she really in it?

You know, does she really love me for me if?

And I was like, no, I'm here, like, I'm not, I was like that, I literally, my first response, I told him when he's laid out everything for me, I said, is that it?

And he was just like, okay, well, this one's special.

You know, it was just, it was different for him.

And I love that he was able to just share openly everything.

-And you know, Gretchen gave you an out as well.

You were engaged before her incident and she said, listen, I understand if this is not what you signed up for.

-I loved her in all her vitality, her mentality, her wonderful energy and imagination.

And so, there was nothing that I could see that could have mitigated that in any way.

She still had that spirit, she was still striving to be, and have a sense of longing to be somebody great, somebody giving, somebody contributing to society.

And as long as she had that, and she still loved me, who could say no?

-That's beautiful.

That's beautiful.

So we also have mentioned that the number of caregivers in the world, that number is growing, right?

And that number will only continue to grow.

And those of you who have been on this journey now for some years, are there enough resources?

How do you let people new to this learn about the resources?

What would you say to them if you, you know, to give them advice or help guide them?

-Well, I'll say, first of all, make sure that your veteran is enrolled in the VA.

Regardless of what some people say, have, get enrolled in the VA. Get yourself a service officer so that your disabilities are translated into abilities.

I think another factor is, is try to make sure that you have a good fit and a clinical alliance with your provider, and every provider.

And do not take no for an answer.

Fight for your soldier, sailor, airmen, marine, space, guardian.

[all laughing] At any rate, you gotta take care of those people, but you cannot, you've gotta be insistent.

Just like they told us in the military, you've gotta take care of your record book.

Well, you gotta take care of your record book in terms of your medical records as well.

Again, I think counseling is always a good thing, whether it be from chaplain or from a clinical provider.

And... ask... and ask, and ask again.

Because those signals of demand will drive the VA and our nation to begin to move in a direction of caregiving, graduated care and elder care.

-And that's huge, right?

Sometimes we look at caregiving as just one period in someone's life or a family's life, but we've gotta look at it as an evolving need, right?

Like Gretchen and I were talking earlier about life is this continuum.

How do we ensure that we're providing the resources and supports that's gonna take that caregiver, that veteran, that person through the end of their life, but also provide that support when that caregiver transitions from caregiver to survivor, right?

How do we, as a nation, wrap our arms around to say your veteran has died, benefits end, and you're out there.

How do we carry that on?

And those are conversations, are essential conversations.

-They are essential conversations, 'cause as Gretchen and I have already done, we've gotten our wills, our medical proxies, and all that stuff done, because we've had those critical conversations.

And those are another key element in caregiving.

If you don't have the critical conversation with your service member, then you're missing out.

You're becoming vulnerable in a negative sense.

And I think that we've already done our decedent affairs stuff as well.

Pay me now, pay me later.

I pay now, because it's gonna be less expensive now, especially if we do it in accordance with each other's plans and desires.

So I think that that's it.

But the thing you point out is, there is, continuity of care can be a buzzword in the medical care industry.

And I think that we really need to pay attention to the fact that you have to have continuity of care so that they can see what your spouse has been through, and they have the history, and they have the underpinnings to properly provide ongoing care and preventative care so that there's not a diminishing of that person's capabilities.

-Any other parting words of wisdom anyone wants to offer?

-You're waking me up, man, 'cause like I say, I'm pretty healthy, and I don't have any needs.

I get along with my son, I don't...

But that is something I need to take care of, you know, just the will, the stuff like that.

I mean, a lot of our stuff is in trust, but preparing if something happens to me at my age so that he's gonna be taken care of.

Who's gonna step in to assist him?

-That's a good... and there's some neat stuff happening in the world today.

Right, Qwynn?

Over in the Scandinavian countries, and even in some places in the US, people are starting to figure it out that we need care for our people even after we die.

So what they're doing is they're creating voluntary rosters, and these people are getting monetary or chits for future care, for their extended long-term care.

And it's exciting that we're starting to build that sense of community, and that community is starting to understand exactly what it means to be a caregiver.

-We have to stop looking at it from the sense of this is just a medical experience, and this is a social experience.

And we're going through this together as humanity.

And how do we show up for one another in the most humanistic, loving way possible?

It's not always just the doctors, and the nurses, and the medical staff.

Your neighbor, how does your neighbor show up?

Does your neighbor even know your name, right?

Like, it's those things that we have to begin being really intentional about to show up for one another, to build-- -[Bob] The rope team.

-The rope team.

To build what other countries have best practices for, that we aren't even touching the surface.

[Thom DeLeuw] We're at the very beginning of evidence-based care.

You're absolutely right.

-But it's important that we do.

-I think this is a really meaningful conversation, and I'm so sorry to have to wrap it up.

It's been an absolute pleasure and an honor to learn more about each of you, and the care you give to the people who have made the sacrifices and served our country.

And I'm so grateful, and I want to speak on behalf of the general population, and offer you some gratitude that maybe doesn't come your way as often as it should.

So thank you for joining us.

Thank you for being part of our conversation today.

If you'd like to learn more about the resources available to the ones you love, you can visit us at pbsavirginia.org.

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