[bright triumphant music] ♪ [bright triumphant music continues] ♪ [bright triumphant music continues] ♪ - Hello and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

I'm coming to you from the home office while the studio is still undergoing renovations.

It's time for part three of our trip to HeroesCon in Charlotte.

Fans love comic conventions because they can meet their favorite writers and artists.

HeroesCon is known for having one of the largest Artist Alleys with creators from all genres and spanning generations.

Fans can get a book signed or a commission or even just chat with someone whose work they've admired.

To keep things running smoothly, many creators have handlers, like Jeff Messer.

Jeff, you work with Mike Grell at conventions.

You help him at his table.

So what is it that you do to make sure that he can get business taken care of?

- Well, you know, they call the position the handler.

And it's much like handling a bear, the circus shows, and the, no, no, no, I'm kidding.

It really is, you know, Mike loves the fans.

He loves telling stories.

It's just kind of helping him manage the flow.

And what I do mostly at the con is I find out what people want and if they want a sketch, if they want prints, if they want a book signed.

And I kind of manage all of that while Mike is talking to whomever he is talking to, and then flow over to him so that he doesn't have to worry about juggling more than one thing.

You know, he's just focused on the art, he's focused on the fans.

I take care of kind of the business side, his wife, when she's with him on the road, she does the same.

And it's just to kind of keep it so that he can focus on being who he is and being available for the fans.

- And HeroesCon is, well everyone says it's a different style of convention because it's really focused on comics.

So compared to a convention that might be focused more on pop culture or movie stars, how does HeroesCon work for you, you know, as the fans come up to talk to Mike, is it that they're a little bit more demanding of the time because they're such intense comic fans?

Or is it that they understand and know what to do?

- Well, at a comic based show like Heroes, which is absolutely one of the best cons, I think, in the country.

I could say in the world, but I haven't been to cons in other countries.

So I'll leave that to let other people decide, but it's because they do focus on comics only.

The comparison is, here, it is purely about the comics, the other places sometimes it's about getting a copy of "Arrow" signed by Mike and then running over to Stephen Amell's line to get it signed over there.

And so a lot of fans at those shows will come the first day.

We'll have a tremendous first day where everybody wants to see Mike, they come, and then they leave 'cause they don't wanna deal with the celebrities or the cosplay and all of that stuff.

And then we get to sort of have more casual next day or two at the con.

Here, it's much more focused, constant fans.

The first day, we had a line, and I don't think Mike looked up for two and a half hours because he was just hunkered in talking to people.

And he likes to tell stories.

So sometimes, you get way more than you ever expected from him, but it's always worth it.

And you just see the people in the line, they appreciate the fact that he's a living legend and they like to watch him draw, even if it's someone else's commission, people will just kind of stand there and go, "No hurry, no rush, no rush.

I'll stand here and wait and I'll watch him draw."

And you can just see the affection that they have for him.

And it's reciprocated from him because as soon as he engages, it's always, "How are you, tell me about yourself."

He's very much interested in who these people are as much as the comics.

You can go and that issue of this, that, and the other.

He's like, "Whatever you say, 'cause I don't remember which issue was this or that," and he'll lean over to me sometimes and go, "What issue did this happen in?"

In "Jon Sable" or whatever.

But he loves that they have that kind of attention to detail.

- And, you know, you're at a convention because, well, you're helping somebody, but you're also a comic fan.

So do you get a chance to ever slip away and maybe look for an issue that you always wanted to find or talk to another artist?

- That's the temptation is running off for 30 minutes and buying ridiculous amounts of stuff from other artists, 'cause I am a huge, huge fan.

And at this show, I've seen and I've gotten books signed, I will bring 20 books to every show to get signed.

And if I budget myself the time, I maybe get 10 of them signed.

And that's okay with me because it's always great to see so many of these artists that I grew up loving come out to the shows and yeah, I'll get commissions from other people.

I've gotten, you know, Dan Jurgens was across from Mike at a con and I went over to Dan and I was like, "I want you to do a commission for me, but I want you to do your version of Mike Grell's 'Jon Sable,'" 'cause he never had a chance to do it back in the day.

But there was a discussion once upon a time that he might.

Well he later did "Green Arrow" with Mike, but he missed out on "Sable."

So that was a unique kind of thing.

So I'm still a fanboy at heart.

I'm just eager to sort of see as many of these folks and try not to freak them out.

They're like, "Oh, you're with Mike."

And I'm like, "Just stay calm, stay calm."

You know, when you meet a giant, Jim Shooter and some of these other people, you have to sort of like, "Ah, I can't be too much of a fanboy, but I am."

But I have to, you know, a little decorum.

- While I was there, I spoke to Mike Grell.

Jeff helps you out at your table during conventions.

So what is it that he does that helps you focus on, you know, doing sketches, signing books, and not being disturbed when you need to be focusing on business?

- That pretty much tells you what Jeff does when he's sitting here at the table with me.

Jeff and my wife, Mary, have been doing a tag team at this show because it's been so busy.

But in general, I concentrate on the stuff that I can do well, which is drawing and signing books and everything else that you see on down the table is what Jeff helps with.

He talks to people as they come through the line, finds out what they're interested in, takes their orders, takes their cash, passes all that stuff on to me.

And it's like a, not exactly an assembly line, but the idea is that as it works its way down past me, it spits out at the end and everybody goes away happy.

- And you know, HeroesCon is one of those conventions that's slightly different.

It's all about comics, it's not about the celebrities.

So when you're at a convention like Heroes, what do you look forward to the most?

- I look forward to seeing people that I haven't seen for 20 years, like Jerry Bingham.

Jerry was off the convention circuit for 20 years.

He was here last year, but I missed him.

And I'm surprised to see how old he's gotten in 20 years.

You just kind of feel that way.

I tell everybody that because it's my way of being in sheer denial about my own age.

- And you know, you're at the table, you're sketching.

I know that you always say, "My butt's in the chair and I'm working," but at some point you've gotta get up.

So do you take- - I did.

20 minutes ago, I got up and went to the bathroom.

- So during your convention you don't like get up, stretch, maybe get a bite to eat just to clear your head?

- Mary always scolds me that I'm supposed to get up, you know, every 20 minutes, half an hour, move around some.

But no, when I come to the convention, it's my policy not to leave my table unless I need to take a bathroom break or something like that.

But I don't take a break and walk around and see the sights or anything like that.

Come straight back to my table.

Unless, like I just ran into Jerry.

And I think that's part of the job, you know?

Because it may not look like it, but it's actually work, and you kind of owe it to your public.

And if they came here to see you, they don't want to see that your table is empty because you are off wandering around for an hour or two.

Besides, that's bad business.

You just wind up losing a lot of money that way.

- And do you get a chance, I know after hours you might go out to eat or something like that.

Do you get a chance to relax, maybe talk to some friends, or even look for a comic that you want?

- I haven't bought a comic at a show in [mumbles] years because I never get out to walk around and see what's available.

Dinner with friends.

Yeah, that's a given.

I always wanna make sure that if I have time, if I don't have homework, which means staying up late at night or getting up super early in the morning, like I did on Saturday, I had so many advance sketch orders that in order to finish up my list, I don't like to come to the show with six or eight sketches still to do.

I want to come in clean.

So I was up at 5:30 in the morning working before I came to the show.

- Ruth Sutherland lives in North Carolina and helps her friend, artist Ron Randall, who lives in Portland when he comes into town for HeroesCon.

Ruth, you are not only a fan, but you are someone who works with or helps out a lot of the invited guests, artists like Ron Randall or Mike Grell.

So when you're at a convention, how do you sort of help them out to make sure that they can stay on task, which is signing autographs on a schedule, getting convention sketches done, and being able to do that without having to deal with a lot of people like me who might walk up and not know that there's a schedule?

- I love kind of being an assistant at a table to kind of scan the crowd and if there's a line and they're kind of wanting to know what the prices are or if they have questions to ask, like if there's anything I can do upfront to help them go ahead and get the information they need, so by the time they get to the creator, they can have more time asking questions about their favorite comic book or character or have a conversation that'll mean more to them, so we kind of can take care of the business stuff in advance so they are through with that and then get to have a little quality time with the creator.

So that makes me happy.

- There is the business aspect.

Obviously the creators aren't giving sketches away and it is part of their annual income, so you take care of that so that way the person who's coming, the attendee, is able to just enjoy that time.

- Right, 'cause it's so special.

Like if somebody's brought a favorite comic book and they're wanting to get an autograph or they're wanting to pick up a print or something like that, it's a special moment.

When you're meeting somebody that's a hero of yours or somebody who entertains you or maybe goes back to your childhood and to just let them focus more on that with that person.

- You're helping out multiple guests here this year.

How do you get involved with 'em?

'Cause you're located here in North Carolina and they will go to different conventions and you might not travel with them to help them out.

- Right.

- But when they come to town, they know that you're gonna be that person, - Right, so it's nice just over the years, talking with some of our favorite creators on a regular basis and getting to know them and build up a little bit of a relationship so they know we're reliable or dependable and just offer to help out.

So I think when people come to our hometown or our home state, if it's a convention we're at, we want to welcome them and help them feel comfortable and just say, "Hey, you know, if there's anything you need us to do."

And sometimes it's just simple like grab a sandwich and something to drink because they wanna be at their table, meeting all of their fans, 'cause it's so disappointing if you walk up to the booth to meet your hero and they're not here and you don't know when they're gonna be back.

So they wanna be there as much as possible.

So sometimes it's just helping little ways that saves them time to be there for the fans.

- While you're helping them out, do you get to enjoy being a fan and go and check out other artists that you aren't helping out and maybe look for a comic that you wanna read or find a collectible or a print or something like that?

- Yes, we've been able to not be like the dedicated person who has to be there 100% of the time, but more like a backup or support is needed.

So supplemental support.

So that gives us time to browse around, go talk with friends, which we love to do.

- Ron Randall sat down with me to talk about Ruth and the convention scene.

Ron, you are an artist, writer, and you are at HeroesCon to basically do business.

You have to interact with fans, you need to sign books for them, you need to do commission sketches, but it's gotta be tough to do this all by yourself.

And I know that you work with Ruth Sutherland to sort of help you at your table and manage that line and let you focus on what you need to focus on.

When you have someone helping you at your table, what are you looking for them to do?

- The pull to me when I'm at a show like this is I know that I've come a long way to do this show.

The people that are putting on the show are accommodating me to have me there.

And the expectation is I'll be at my space.

And so that's what I wanna do almost all the time.

But at sometimes, you need to have a bathroom break.

It might be good to stretch your legs a little bit, get a cup of coffee.

Sometimes you might even have somebody that you want to have a meeting with, connect with another professional, and you can do one of two things then, if you're by yourself, you either have to take down your table display or throw a shroud over it or something and leave it there basically unattended.

Or you can have somebody you trust that can sort of be there and answer questions for friends or fans and just sort of mind the store while you're out for a few minutes.

So that's the main thing.

And sometimes if they're really nice people, like Darren, her husband, Ruth, they will sometimes bring you in a meal [laughs] or a cup of coffee or something like that.

All of those things are sort of like those small gestures, but they can make an immeasurable difference in the quality, the experience you can have at the show.

'Cause when you're sitting there at the table, if you've, like I've done for this show, I've traveled across the country to be at the show and you're sleeping in hotel rooms and stuff.

So your whole system is thrown off.

All of your familiar surroundings and stuff are gone.

So it's a little bit disorienting.

And then if you have on top of that, you're tired and you're maybe hungry or thirsty and you're at your table, it can make you less able to be as available to interact with the fans and give as much of a quality exchange with them as you can give.

So any help that makes that process go a little bit easier is, like I said, it's invaluable.

- And the other question is about, you know, the convention experience.

I've noticed over the years, I've seen things changing.

It's not the same audience coming to the convention.

You see a lot more char, I see a lot more characters that I'm unfamiliar with, whether it's from video games or anime or the Marvel or DC Universe movies.

As someone who's gone through a lot of conventions over the years, are you noticing any sort of change?

And if so, what are those changes?

- You put your finger on it.

The one that, I've been around a long time, and the first huge scene change that happened in seeing the attendees at conventions was a number of years ago when you saw a type of person at the comic convention that I used to never see at a show and that was women.

I used to think that I was maybe not remembering it accurately when I used to say that at the San Diego Comic Con, so this is many years ago.

It wasn't nearly as big as it is now, but it was still maybe the largest show in the country.

And I went there for over 20 years in a row.

But you would almost, you would see very, very few women in the hall at all.

I thought, "Well maybe I'm just not remembering that right," in later years when I would tell that to people.

But then some years ago I was on a panel with Karen Berger, former big time editor at DC Comics and launched the Vertigo line and all that.

But she was remembering that at San Diego she would be at the show and be very conscious of the fact that there were maybe three other women in the entire convention hall.

So it was really like that.

And all that started to change, I can't put a finger on exactly the date of it happening, but more women started to come, women and girls, started to come to the shows.

I think there were several reasons for that, but a huge one I think was manga and anime, which featured subjects and storylines and styles of art that were more universal in appeal than the sort of the testosterone, male centric, you know, largely superhero American sort of comic books.

- Fred Chamberlain travels to conventions with legendary DC artist Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez.

Fred, you are at HeroesCon 2023.

You're working with the great Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez and you help him at his booth.

So I'm wondering what is it that you do that makes it easier for him to work with the, you know, sketches and interact with fans and maybe sign some books for folks?

- Jose and I have known each other for many years.

I think what I do is I allow him to be in a space where he can focus more on his work, not be as distracted constantly, maybe give him a little more structure, answer questions that maybe aren't directed specifically towards him or directly involved interactions between him and fans and kind of just allow some of the noise to go away.

Jose's pretty introverted by nature.

I think it also gives him a sense of peace to have somebody else have his back.

- And I would imagine, too, it's difficult for an artist to have to welcome the fans and then also sort of stand up because you want to make sure that if you're selling a page, you're getting the right price for it.

Or if the line is getting a little out of hand, it's great to have someone else there who can handle that while they can focus on the business.

- Absolutely, and while he's introverted, Jose has the curiosity of an artist, right?

And he's got a natural interest and a love of people.

However, as smart as he is, one of the things I noticed years ago when I started sitting with him and helping him, he has a history of undervaluing his work.

One of the things we've done through kind of watching eBay auctions and Heritage Auctions and even the sales at his table at shows is kind of gauge the market and kind of gradually over the years really bump up some of the prices for his work so it's more of a fair market value.

- And it's interesting, you mentioned Heritage Auction.

I know that a lot of Jose's work has gone to Heritage recently and I know that from what I've seen on social media, you may have had a hand in that.

So when it comes time to part with some of the artwork, especially from the DC style guide, which I know collectors and fans are deeply attached to, is it tough to get Jose to part with that?

And is it something that you're saying, you know, now's the perfect time 'cause the market is ripe for that kind of sale?

- One of the things I've been very careful about is not being overly directive.

Certainly give my thoughts and opinions and you know, some of those are a little more grounded and probably valuable than others, of my opinions.

But he ultimately does what he believes he wants to do.

And with the Heritage Auctions, again, most of the work that you're seeing is secondhand, people that have purchased from him over the years.

Last year, I organized all of the artwork he currently has in his possession left, just to get a better sense of what he has, to give him a sense of organization, and we went through it together to kind of generate some income.

He made the choices of the pages that he wanted to go, that included some covers.

He still has many pieces in his personal collection.

I call that my Do Not Touch My Stuff collection.

It's a combination of kind of figuring out what he has and then kind of going through it with him and saying, "Well there was value sending this out here."

But he ultimately, even years before me, years and years before me, he has his model of organization and bringing art to shows or sending 'em to auction.

It's going through his collection and he tends to keep the pages that he enjoys more and separates them out.

So it's just kind of a gradual whittling down in departure.

But he still has a significant amount left.

They tend to be the titles that he really loves on a personal level, create our own stuff, "Atari Force," "Jonah Hex," but a lot of the big key characters from the Bronze Age, most of that stuff has moved on.

He's kept some but not much.

- If you are an aspiring creator yourself, you may be able to get some advice on how to improve.

Thanks to Fred, I was lucky enough to get one of my all time favorite artists, Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez, to look over a few pages I was working on.

Remember, these people are professionals and will give you an honest evaluation of your work.

To find out what to expect and how to prepare, I spoke with artist and scholar, Carl Potts.

You've been an editor, you are an artist, you are a writer, but you're also an educator.

So if I'm an aspiring cartoonist and I come to a convention and I speak to a professional about my portfolio, what should I do to make sure that I get the most out of it, but also don't waste the time of the person who's giving me their expertise.

- Right, well, remember that comics are a sequential visual storytelling medium.

So don't bring a bunch of one page splashes and pseudo covers, 'cause that won't tell the editor whether you can tell a story clearly and convincingly in a sequential order.

So make sure you have panel to panel continuity and the sequence that's happening within those panels are very clear and obvious to the reader.

Do things like introduce, the first time we get to a new scene, introduce the scene, pull back long enough to establish the scene and keep it consistent throughout the sequence.

Introduce your character's full figure, head to toe, generally speaking, so that we know what they look like.

And then use the panel distances from the the virtual camera to your advantage as a general approach with a lot of exceptions.

Long shots are usually used to establish scenes.

Medium shots are often used to show action and action doesn't necessarily mean two people bashing each other into brick walls.

It can be putting on a coat, answering a phone, or whatever.

And closeups are often used to show reaction or detail.

There's millions of exceptions, but if you're new and starting out, that's a good basic way to make sure that you're trying to, you know, telling the story fairly clearly.

Remember that comic artists have to draw more subjects at the same high level of convincing us than any other type of artist.

Most artists, fine artists or commercial artists tend to specialize in a subject, like they do human portraits or animal portraits or landscapes or some sort of product shot, vehicles or something.

But you have to be able to draw anything that a script might call for, real or imagined, and make it look just as convincing as the best thing you can draw.

So if you have someone riding a horse and that person is drawn really well, but that horse is, lord knows what that animal is, the reader's eye is gonna go to that wonky looking thing that the person's riding and you're gonna break their suspension of disbelief, take them out of the story, and that's a bad thing.

You always wanna make sure that the reader's eye is going, the eye path is clear and instinctual through the page, so that it flows from panel to panel.

There's no question about where your eye is supposed to go next and try and not have all of the compositions in each panel be the same.

A lot of beginners usually do symmetrical compositions instinctually in every panel.

They'll put the main subject right in the middle of every panel, or if there's two subjects talking to each other, they're evenly spaced within the panel, panel after panel.

Use some asymmetrical design, use some negative space to your advantage, and so on.

So just the biggest thing is to do sequential stuff.

Make sure it's clear what the actions are and that you're establishing everything and all actions are from a clear angle and just draw everything to your best advantage.

Anything you can't draw well, you don't have confidence in, those are the subjects you need to be concentrating on, not just keep repeating the stuff you're comfortable with over and over again.

- And if I'm at the convention, I know for a lot of artists they can be defensive because it's very personal and it's revealing to get criticism.

So if I'm an artist and I start, "Well, let me explain," should I just shut my mouth and listen, or?

- Well, some of that will depend on the personality of the person you're showing to.

There are some people out there that, I don't like their approach.

They use the sort of [indistinct] a God sort of approach, where they just, no matter what the person's level is, they'll tell 'em they're god awful and go dig ditches for a living, saying that, you know, if they have what it takes to make it, that that'll just get them pissed off and get them geared up to improve.

That works on maybe a certain small percentage of personality types.

There might be someone who's the second coming of Michelangelo, but they're very timid, and if somebody they respect tells them to go pump gas for a living, they might not pick up a pencil again.

I think that it's more of an excuse to be a bully than anything else for most of those, that type of approach.

So always try to be constructive but honest.

If someone really has a long way to go, tell 'em that, you know, if you really want to have even a chance of making it in the business, here are the things you have to work on every day for maybe years to have that chance and leave the ball in their court to move forward.

But give them the tools, the information, that if they do wanna move forward, to do that.

And if there's someone who really is really good and talented, there was a kid who came by here yesterday, 14, he's better than most of my SVA undergrad students, and I was flabbergasted just how good.

And plus, he had a great attitude.

So if you get someone who is criticizing your work and maybe you don't agree with it, ask yourself honestly, am I just being reactionary, defensive?

Should I really take this to task?

'Cause a lot of us are blind to our own weaknesses.

Instead of just getting defensive and blowing up, just thank the person for their comments and go back and mull it over as honestly as you can and see whether there's some substance to those comments.

- That's all the time we have for this episode of "Comic Culture."

Thank you so much for watching.

Until next time, I'll see you soon.

"Comic Culture" is a production of the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

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