♪ MUSIC ♪ >>GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

FROM OUR HOME STUDIOS, I'M DAVID DUMKE.

>>AND I'M KATIE CORONADO.

WELCOME.

>>TODAY, FROM CAIRO, WE ARE JOINED BY HIBAAQ OSMAN, THE FOUNDER OF EL-KARAMA, AN ORGANIZATION WHICH WORKS WITH A VARIETY OF GRASSROOTS WOMEN'S GROUPS ACROSS NORTH AFRICA AND THE MIDDLE EAST.

WELCOME, HIBAAQ.

>>THANK YOU.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>>TAKING ON WOMEN'S ISSUES IN THIS REGION IS OBVIOUSLY A CHALLENGE.

HOW DID YOU GET IN GET INTO THIS FIELD?

>>I GUESS I STUMBLED ON IT.

BEING A WOMAN, OF COURSE, YOU ARE ALWAYS INTERESTED IN ALL THE ISSUES THAT AFFECT YOU AS A WOMAN.

AND AT CERTAIN LEVEL, YOU WOULD THEN WANT TO HELP SUPPORT OTHER PEOPLE.

NOBODY TELLS YOU WHEN YOU ARE BORN, THAT YOU WILL BE WORKING ON THIS.

BUT I HATE INJUSTICE AND INJUSTICE AGAINST WOMEN, BECAUSE THE WOMEN, IN ANY CULTURE, IN ANY COUNTRY ARE FACED WITH TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PROBLEMS, AND THEY ARE ALWAYS TRYING TO SURVIVE, AND TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

SO, PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE FACILITATORS, MAKING SURE THAT VOICES ARE AMPLIFIED AND HEARD, AND THERE ARE RESOURCES FOR THEM.

AND, THERE IS PRESET TO MAKE THE CASE, TO SUPPORT THEM AGAINST VIOLENCE, SUPPORT POLITICAL PARTICIPATION, SO THE LAWS WOULD CHANGE.

ONE THING LEADS TO THE OTHER.

SO YEAH, I THINK IF YOU ASK ANY WOMAN, "HOW DID YOU GET INTO THIS?"

THEY WOULD TELL YOU, "IT'S HER STORY".

IT'S EVERY WOMAN'S STORY, THERE IS NO ONE POINT THAT YOU SAY, "WELL, THIS IS THE MOMENT I GOT INVOLVED".

ANYBODY CLAIMS THAT, "BECAUSE THEY WANT TO HELP WOMEN", THAT'S NOT IT.

BUT FACILITATING, AND BECAUSE YOU CAN, YOU HAVE THE LUXURY AND THE PRIVILEGE TO BE IN A POSITION TO SUPPORT THAT AND FACILITATE.

I THINK I WAS VERY LUCKY.

YEAH.

>>HIBAAQ, AND I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT WOMEN KNOWING THAT THEY MUST DO THIS.

AND WHEN IT COMES TO A PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE, CAN YOU SHARE WITH US A FEELING THAT YOU REMEMBER, THAT MAY HAVE TRIGGERED THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU DECIDED TO DO WHAT YOU SAY THAT WE SHOULD DO AS WOMEN, THAT YOU CAN GO BACK TO, THAT YOU CAN THINK OF, THAT CAN ALIGN WITH YOUR WORK TODAY?

>>I WISH I COULD TELL YOU, "THIS WAS THE MOMENT", TO BE HONEST.

BUT I GUESS, I WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO WAS NOT TOLD TO LEAVE THE TABLE, OR TO WAIT FOR THE BOYS TO EAT.

SO, I WAS LUCKY IN THAT SENSE.

BUT I HAD A SENSE OF AGITATION AND ANGER BECAUSE THERE WAS NO EQUAL.

EVEN IN THE SAME FAMILY, THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS WHEN IT COMES TO BOYS.

NOT NECESSARILY IN MY OWN STORY, BUT IN OTHER STORIES WHERE THE BOYS WERE SENT TO A SCHOOL, WHERE THE GIRLS WERE FORCED TO MARRY AT A VERY YOUNG AGE, WHERE THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GET OUT OF THE HOUSE, OR GET A JOB AND ALL THIS.

>>I MEAN, THAT ABSOLUTELY WAS SOMETHING THAT REALLY MADE ME VERY, VERY ANGRY.

AND I WAS VERY LUCKY BECAUSE MY FAMILY WAS NOT NECESSARILY...

THEY CERTAINLY BELIEVED IN GETTING MARRIED AT A VERY YOUNG AGE.

I MEAN, MY GRANDMOTHER ALWAYS REMINDED ME THAT SHE GOT MARRIED AT THE AGE OF NINE, AND MY SISTER AND MOTHER, AT THE AGE OF 10, OR MY SISTER AT THE AGE OF 14.

AND I THINK SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS NOBODY EXPLAINS TO MY MOTHER OR MY GRANDMOTHER, THAT THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO, BECAUSE SHE'S DOING HOW... SHE'S BASICALLY FOLLOWING THE FOOTSTEPS OF HER MOTHER, AND HER MOTHER'S MOTHER, AND THE CULTURE, AND THE RELIGION, AND THIS, AND THAT.

IT'S JUST SOMETHING VERY NORMAL.

SO WHEN THE YOUNG GIRLS, ACTUALLY, THE MEN HAVE SOMETHING ELSE IN MIND, BECAUSE THE IDEA IS, "GET WHEN THEY'RE YOUNG, AND MOLD THEM THE WAY THAT YOU WANT THEM".

AND THEY ALWAYS GO AFTER YOUNG GIRLS WHO DID NOT OPEN THEIR EYES YET, WHO DO NOT GO TO SCHOOL.

SO, WHEN THE MODERN HK YOUNG GIRLS WERE GOING TO BE SENT TO SCHOOL, THE LAST THING A MAN WANTED WAS TO SEND THEM TO THE SCHOOL.

SO, I COULD SEE SOME GIRLS WHO WERE NOT SENT TO SCHOOL, AND AT A YOUNG AGE, YOU DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND THAT.

YOU JUST, YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND, MAYBE THE FAMILY... YOU DON'T ANALYZE IT.

IT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS.

SO, YEAH.

I MEAN, AND OF COURSE AT AN OLDER AGE, FOR EXAMPLE, AT THIS AGE, WHEN I SEE WOMEN WHO ARE NOT BEING APPOINTED TO IMPORTANT POSITIONS, IT PISSES ME OFF.

AND OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO REALLY GET THE EXPOSURE, AND EDUCATION, AND SUPPORT FOR THEM TO HAVE THEIR OWN CONSTITUENCY.

AND AT CERTAIN LEVELS YOU COME TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING, AND THEN SOMETHING BECOMES MORE IMPORTANT.

AT A VERY YOUNG AGE IT WAS, "GIRLS SHOULD GO TO SCHOOL".

THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY...

FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION WAS WRONG.

POLYGAMY WAS ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

MISINTERPRETATION OF THE CULTURE AND USING IT AS RELIGION... JUSTIFYING BY RELIGION WAS WRONG.

SO YOU COME TO UNDERSTAND WHAT CAN BE DONE.

BUT I WAS JUST, I WAS NEVER AFRAID TO STAND FOR WHAT I BELIEVE IN, EVEN AT A VERY YOUNG AGE.

>>YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE WAS FEELING OF ANGER, AND I WANTED TO TOUCH ON HOW YOU WERE ABLE TO CONVERT THAT, OR, WERE YOU ABLE TO TAKE THAT AND CHANNEL THAT INTO USING IT TO SOMETHING POSITIVE IN YOUR OPINION?

>>ANGER, MAYBE, IT'S A LACK OF BETTER WORD.

BUT OF COURSE, CONCERNED.

BECAUSE, I BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE WAS EQUAL FROM START.

SO I NEVER REALLY UNDERSTOOD THERE WAS MEN AND WOMEN, AND THEY WERE NOT EQUAL.

AND COMING FROM A CULTURE THAT REALLY EMPHASIZES THAT A MAN IS HERE AND A WOMAN IS DOWN SOMEWHERE HERE.

OF COURSE, THAT'S CONTINUOUSLY BEING CONFRONTED WITH WHAT MY BELIEF WAS, AND WHAT THE CULTURE WAS.

OF COURSE, IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO RECONCILE THAT.

AND THEN AGAIN, COMING FROM SOMALIA, AND ALSO TRYING TO DO...

LIVING IN THE STATES AND IN OTHER PLACES, IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME THAT WHEN MY COUNTRY WAS FALLING APART, THERE REALLY WEREN'T MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE HELPING AND SUPPORTING WOMEN COMING FROM CONFLICT AREAS.

SO, I REMEMBER GOING TO THE CONGRESS, AND DOING DEBRIEFING, AND STARTING ORGANIZATION FOR LOBBYING, FOR AFRICAN ISSUES.

AND THEN FROM THERE, STARTING ANOTHER ORGANIZATION CALLED CENTER OF STRATEGIC INITIATIVES, WHAT I UNDERSTOOD WAS IT WAS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO WORK WITHIN A NETWORK, TO BUILD A CONSTITUENCY.

OF COURSE, YOU LEARN BY MISTAKES, BECAUSE IF YOU GO AND SAY, "I'M GOING TO DO A BRIEFING FOR THE CONGRESS", OR "I'M GOING TO DO A BRIEFING FOR THE CONSTITUENCY", OR "I'M GOING TO GO AND TALK TO MY OWN COMMUNITY", YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO SPEAK THE LANGUAGE OF THE COMMUNITY.

JUST BECAUSE YOU COME FROM THAT COMMUNITY DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL UNDERSTAND.

SO, COUPLE OF THINGS.

NUMBER ONE, BUILDING A CONSTITUENCY AROUND ME WAS VERY IMPORTANT.

I UNDERSTOOD BECAUSE I WAS AGITATED, THERE WAS WAR GOING IN MY COUNTRY.

I WAS AGITATED BECAUSE WOMEN WERE NOT EQUAL WITH MEN.

AGITATED BECAUSE THERE WERE A LOT OF OBSTACLES OF THINGS I COULD DO OR OTHERS COULD HAVE DONE, BUT THEY COULDN'T BECAUSE OF THEIR GENDER.

AND I THINK WHAT HAPPENS AT WAR IS, WOMEN FIND THEMSELVES IN A POSITION WHERE THEY CAN MAKE DECISIONS, BECAUSE NOBODY'S GOING TO TELL YOU, "DON'T TALK TO THE CONGRESS", "DON'T GO TO THE MEDIA", "DON'T TALK TO THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS IN YOUR COMMUNITY", BECAUSE EVERYTHING JUST, THE MEN PICK UP THE GUNS AND THEY LEFT.

AND I WAS VERY LUCKY TO BE IN A PLACE WHERE OTHERS HELPED ME, SUPPORTED ME.

AND, I WAS VERY MULTI-CULTURED.

SO, I WAS NOT SOMEONE WHO WAS TRYING TO FIGHT FROM A VILLAGE, BUT I UNDERSTOOD THE POWER OF VILLAGE.

SO THE THING THAT MADE, I THINK DIFFERENCE WAS, I UNDERSTOOD IT WAS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO BE CONNECTED, WHETHER YOU ARE IN NEW YORK, WASHINGTON, GENEVA.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEAK, YOUR OWN CONSTITUENTS, YOU NEED TO LOOK LIKE THEM, TALK LIKE THEM, USE THEIR TERMINOLOGY, AND PUT THAT IN A WAY THAT THE COMMUNITY UNDERSTANDS.

BECAUSE THEY TRUST YOU, BECAUSE YOU'RE SPEAKING IN A WAY THAT THEY UNDERSTAND, YOU'RE SPEAKING...

THEY TRUST YOU, AND THEY TELL YOU THEIR CONCERNS.

BUT YOU HAVE TO PACKAGE THAT IN A WAY THAT THE DECISIONS THAT ARE AFFECTING THEM IN NEW YORK, WASHINGTON, AND GENEVA, OR PARIS, OR WHATEVER IT IS, I ABSOLUTELY HAVE THE RIGHT INFORMATION.

AND WITHIN THAT, TO CONNECT WITH ALSO MORE PEOPLE LIKE ME, WHO CAN THEN MAKE THAT INFLUENCE.

SO, I UNDERSTOOD THE CONNECTION WHEN HERE SO, IT NEVER REALLY LEFT MY COMMUNITY.

AND THIS IS WHERE KARAMA COMES IN ALSO, BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY KARAMA.

WHAT WE ARE DOING AT KARAMA IS, WE ARE CONNECTING THE DOTS.

WE ARE MAKING SURE AND LISTENING WHAT THE WOMEN ON THE GROUND, WHAT ARE THEIR NEEDS?

AND I LEARNED THAT AT THE PERSONAL LEVEL, BECAUSE I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO ANYTHING, IF I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS NEEDED.

I WOULDN'T BE AGITATED IF I DIDN'T KNOW THAT SO MUCH WAS MISSING, AND IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY.

BECAUSE I DON'T THINK YOU JUST BECOME ANGRY ABOUT SOMETHING, BUT IT'S WHEN YOU KNOW, THINGS DON'T HAVE TO BE THE WAY THEY ARE, WHEN YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THINGS COULD CHANGE.

SO IF IN SOMALIA, GIRLS WE'RE NOT GOING TO SCHOOL, THE SCHOOL HAD TO BE CREATED.

IT'S NOT ABOUT MONEY, IT'S NOT ANYTHING, IT'S CONVINCING THE COMMUNITY.

IF YOU NEED TO CONVINCE THE COMMUNITY, YOU NEED TO TALK TO THEM.

THEY HAVE TO RESPECT YOU.

YOU HAVE TO BE SOMEBODY AT THAT LEVEL THAT THEY RESPECT, THAT YOU CAN TALK AND CONVINCE THEM TO SEND GIRLS TO SCHOOL.

TO STOP, FOR EXAMPLE, THE FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION.

AND IT'S NOT JUST ME, BUT FINDING THOSE WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THAT, AND THEN SUPPORTING THEM, AND AMPLIFYING THEIR VOICE AT THE REGIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL LEVEL.

SO THEN THEY CAN MAKE AN INFLUENCE, SO THEY CAN GET THE RESOURCES THEY NEED.

SO, I THINK BEING A WOMAN IS VERY COMPLICATED ACTUALLY, BECAUSE YOU WILL HAVE SO MANY ROLES, AND SO MANY THINGS, AND YOU'VE BEEN ON SOME, AND OTHERS DEPEND ON YOU, AND ALL THAT.

BUT TO ME, IT WAS ALWAYS A STORY.

YOU WILL MEET WOMEN WHO UNDERSTOOD EARLY ON THAT THEY HAVE TO CHANGE THE LAW, BECAUSE YOU JUST CAN'T SAY, "WOMEN'S RIGHTS" FOR THE SAKE.

AND SOMETIMES WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT ALL THE [INAUDIBLE] IN THE WORLD, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S POSSIBLE, AND THEN TAKE THAT INTO, WHAT THE REALITIES ON THE GROUND, AND SORT OF MOLD IT TO THE POINT WHERE, OKAY, EVERYONE SEES IT.

"YEAH, A WOMAN RUNNING FOR OFFICE IS OKAY, IT'S NOT AGAINST MY CULTURE OR RELIGION, BECAUSE THIS IS THEIR PRIORITY, THIS IS WHAT THEY HAVE PUT".

AND THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND.

IT'S LIKE, THEY'LL THINK CULTURES ARE REALLY BAD AND THEY CONCENTRATE ON THE BAD THINGS.

EVERY CULTURE IS VERY DIFFICULT.

WHETHER IT'S THE U.S, OR WHETHER IT IS IN AFRICA, OR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, YOU JUST HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHATEVER YOU ARE TRYING TO DO, IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO AFFECT THE PEOPLE.

AND IF IT'S GOING TO AFFECT THE PEOPLE, IT BETTER BE SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE PRIORITIZED, THAT THEY CAN RELATE TO.

>>YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HIBAAQ, BEING BORN IN SOMALIA, SEEING YOUR COUNTRY LITERALLY FALL APART, YOU'VE ALSO WORKED SINCE THEN, IN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE GONE THROUGH TURMOIL.

IT'S 10 YEARS SINCE THE "ARAB SPRING", QUOTE UNQUOTE, OCCURRED.

THERE ARE SOME WHO WOULD SAY MAYBE CONFLICT, AND WHEN THERE'S INSTABILITY, ISN'T THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

>>THAT'S THE BEST TIME TO TALK TO BECAUSE, THINGS ARE SO GOING CHAOS.

AND IF YOU LOOK, FOR EXAMPLE, AT THE "ARAB SPRING", OR "ARAB NIGHTMARE", MANY PEOPLE OF COURSE REFER TO DIFFERENT WORDS.

BUT, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, WOMEN WERE AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE REVOLUTIONS.

THEIR VOICES WERE LOUDER THAN ANYONE, THEY CONSISTENTLY AND PERSISTENTLY WERE AT THE TAHRIR SQUARE, DAVID AS YOU KNOW.

OR, TO ALL THE SQUARES.

THEY BROUGHT THEIR CHILDREN, THEY BROUGHT THE FOOD, THEY ENCOURAGE THE MEN TO STAY ON.

AND I THINK THE REVOLUTIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN A TOTAL DISASTER IF THE WOMAN WERE NOT THERE.

BUT WHAT HAPPENED, I MEAN, THEY COMPLETELY LOST THAT FEAR.

AND YOU HAVE TO...

IN COUNTRIES THAT WERE MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN OTHERS, LIKE EGYPT, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY LOST THAT FEAR.

SOMETHING, JUST THAT WALL OF FEAR WAS GONE.

BUT THEN WHAT HAPPENED?

THE MINUTE THE REVOLUTION BECOMES SUCCESSFUL AND THE TRANSITION TAKES PLACE, THEN THE WOMAN ARE PUSHED BACK.

ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE SALAMIS CAME AND WOMEN SHOULD NOT DO THIS, AND WOMEN WERE BEING RAPED, OR WOMEN WERE BEING HARASSED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TAHRIR SQUARE, AND OTHER PLACES.

AND, IT WAS REALLY, THE FAMILIES WERE THEN AFRAID FOR THEIR CHILDREN, FOR THE GIRLS, AND SAID, "STAY IN".

AND THEN THE GIRLS OF COURSE, WENT BEHIND THE BOARD AND WERE THE ONES WHO STILL WERE CALLING PEOPLE TO COME UP.

AND THEN WHEN THE TRANSITION TAKES PLACE, THEY'RE PUSHED BACK.

SO, BUT SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED.

WOMEN WOULD NEVER BE THE SAME AFTER THESE REVOLUTIONS.

THEY ARE STILL WORKING ON THE LAW.

THEY ARE STILL TRYING...

THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY PUSHED, FOR EXAMPLE, AS YOU KNOW IN EGYPT, THE CONSTITUTION THAT WAS DRAFTED HAD 18 LAWS THAT PROTECTS WOMEN AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

AND THAT WAS GREAT.

BUT THE QUESTION IS THEN, WHEN THE PARLIAMENT IS ELECTED AND THE RIGHT WOMEN ARE NOT ELECTED, NO ONE'S GOING TO IMPLEMENT THAT.

BUT THE POINT IS, UP TO TODAY, THEY ARE WORKING AND MAKING SURE THAT THESE LAWS ARE IMPLEMENTED, AND ENFORCED, THAT'S ONE.

SO IN TUNIS, IT'S THE SAME WAY.

SO ARE WOMEN ABSOLUTELY STILL AT IT.

THE REVOLUTION HASN'T FINISHED AS FAR AS WOMEN ARE CONCERNED.

SO, THEY DIDN'T GO BACK TO THE KITCHENS YET.

THEY ARE IS STILL WORKING TOGETHER, THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY SORTED OUT THEIR DIFFERENCES IN TERMS OF, "LET'S CONCENTRATE ON THESE LAWS TO BE PASSED".

THEY ARE WORKING MORE TOGETHER THAN THEY EVER DID BEFORE IN THEIR HISTORY.

SO, COMING TOGETHER ON FIRED ISSUES WHEN IT COMES TO THE WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

OF COURSE, THERE'S A LONG WAY TO GO, BUT THAT'S THAT'S THAT.

SOMALIA IS VERY DIFFERENT.

SOMALIA IS VERY CONSERVATIVE.

THE CIVIL WAR OF COURSE, WAS DEVASTATING.

THE WOMEN WERE NOT GIVEN THEIR RIGHT PLACE.

AND UP TO TODAY, THEY HAVE 30%.

AND THIS IS THE MISTAKE THAT PEOPLE MAKE, WHEN THEY SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, "WE NEED 30 WOMEN", MAYBE THE GOVERNMENT WILL TAKE 20 WOMEN AND APPOINT THEM.

THEY WILL TAKE WOMEN WHO ARE SAFE FOR THEM, BECAUSE ONE IS, AND I THINK WE HAVE SEEN THAT IN THE STATES, OR IN EUROPE, OR ANYWHERE.

IF THEY DON'T COME FROM THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT, AND THEY'RE JUST SOMEBODY'S WIFE, OR SOMEBODY'S RELATIVE, OR SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN IN THE PARTY, AND THEY'RE APPOINTED, THEY JUST WILL KEEP THE PARTY LINE.

BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT WOMEN'S WOMEN, LET'S JUST PUT IT THIS WAY.

THEY ARE NOT WOMEN'S WOMEN.

THEY ARE WOMEN WHO ARE BASICALLY HAVE THE PARTY LINE AND WHO ARE PROTECTING THAT PARTY.

THEIR LOYALTY IS NOT WITH WOMEN.

AND I THINK THAT'S A MAJOR PROBLEM, BECAUSE NOW IF YOU LOOK AT THE UN ASSEMBLY, WE ARE ALWAYS PUSHING FOR WOMEN TO BE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ALL THIS PEACE, WHAT DO YOU CALL, PEACE AGREEMENTS AND THE PEACE PROCESSES.

THERE IS A WHOLE RESOLUTION, 1325, THAT SAYS "WOMEN SHOULD BE INVOLVED IN THE PEACE AGREEMENTS, AND THE PEACE PROCESSES THROUGHOUT THE PEACE PROCESS".

AND WE'RE STILL, AFTER 20 YEARS, THERE HAS TO BE NATIONAL ACTION PLANS, WE'RE STILL FIGHTING FOR IT.

BECAUSE THEN THE GOVERNMENT TURNS AROUND, AND THE MILITIA, OR THE OPPOSITION TURNS AROUND AND SAYS, "OF COURSE, WE HAVE FOUR WOMEN IN THE MEETING".

BUT THOSE WOMEN ARE NOT WOMEN'S WOMEN.

THOSE WOMEN ARE WOMEN WHO ARE APPOINTED BY THE GOVERNMENT, WHO ARE LOYAL TO THE GOVERNMENT, OR TO THE MILITIA, OR OPPOSITION, WHO ARE LOYAL TO THEM.

AND IT'S NOT JUST SOMALIA, IT'S NOT IN ANY COUNTRY, I THINK IT'S EVERYWHERE.

BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE INVOICE FOR SYRIA, OR LIBYA OR ANYWHERE, THEY'RE ALL MEN IN SUITS MOST OF THE TIME.

SO THE UNITED NATIONS CANNOT EVEN IMPLEMENT THEIR OWN RESOLUTIONS.

EUROPEANS, THE SAME THING.

IF YOU LOOK AT ANY GIVEN MEETING, YOU WILL ONLY SEE MAYBE ONE WOMAN, AND THE REST ARE MEN.

SO FOR US, THE QUESTION IS NOT, WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO.

WE HAVE TO CHANGE THE LAW.

WE HAVE TO CHANGE... WE HAVE TO BUILD STRONG CONSTITUENCIES ACROSS NATIONS AND NATIONALITIES TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER, TO MAKE SURE THAT MORE WOMEN ARE THERE.

YEAH.

>>HIBAAQ, IS THERE A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE WOMEN WHO ARE THERE AS WHAT I WOULD SAY, OUR POTENTIAL PLACEHOLDERS IN THESE POSITIONS...

IN GOVERNMENT POSITIONS, AND FEAR?

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO GET RID OF THAT SCENARIO AND HAVE WOMEN WHO REPRESENT WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN THOSE POSITIONS, IN THE FUTURE?

>>WE HAVE TO HAVE VERY STRONG WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS AND WOMEN'S MOVEMENTS THAT WILL PUSH A WOMAN'S AGENDA.

AND WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE, EVEN FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S SAY IN THE STATES, FOR EXAMPLE, ANYWHERE, WOMEN WHO ARE RUNNING AND WHO HAVE A WOMAN'S AGENDA SHOULD BE SUPPORTED.

AND I THINK WOMEN NEED TO REALIZE THEIR OWN POWER, THAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY POWEROUS BY NUMBERS.

THAT WHEN YOU ARE HERE, FOR COUNTRIES THAT ARE LUCKY, THAT CAN ACTUALLY ELECT AND HAVE ELECTIONS AND DEMOCRACY, THERE IS NO REASON WHY THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE A WOMAN WHO HAS A WOMAN'S AGENDA.

BUT, SOME WOMEN ARE AFRAID OF WOMEN WHO HAVE A WOMAN'S AGENDA.

THEY REALLY ARE SCARED.

AND OF COURSE, THERE ARE SOME, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU LOOK AT IN SOME COUNTRIES, IT'S ACTUALLY THE POLITICAL PARTIES THAT ACTUALLY HAVE TO GIVE A LIST OF WOMEN TO RUN.

AND THE POLITICAL PARTIES OF COURSE, THE LIST OF WOMEN THEY WILL GIVE, ARE NOT NECESSARILY A WOMEN'S WOMAN.

THEY WILL GIVE SAFE WOMEN, WHO ARE MORE LOYAL TO THE PARTY THAN THEY ARE TO THE ISSUES.

SO WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY AND FIGHT, AND ORGANIZE, TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE WOMEN WHO ARE GOING THERE, HAVE A WOMAN'S AGENDA.

BUT EVEN IF THEY DON'T HAVE WHEN THEY GO IN, THERE IS NO REASON WHY THEY SHOULDN'T BE REALLY PRESSURED TO SUPPORT WOMEN'S ISSUES.

>>SO YOU WANT TO GET AWAY FROM THIS TOKENISM THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

BUT I KNOW YOU DON'T LIKE USING THE WORD "EMPOWERMENT", WHY IS THAT?

>>BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

NOBODY CAN EMPOWER YOU.

SEE, WOMEN ARE STRONG, TO BEGIN WITH.

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE BRINGING... NINE MONTHS THEY HAVE A CHILD IN THEIR STOMACH.

AND, THEY ARE STRONG.

THEY ARE THE FOUNDATION OF THE SOCIETY.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO LOOK AT A SOCIETY AND PREDICT WHERE THAT SOCIETY IS GOING, YOU HAVE TO LOOK HOW THEY ARE TREATING THEIR WOMEN.

ANY SOCIETY WHO'S LEAVING THEIR WOMEN BEHIND BY NOT SUPPORTING, THEY DON'T HAVE LAWS THAT SUPPORT A WOMEN, THEY ARE NOT GIVING THEM POSITIONS THAT CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR THE SOCIETY, THEY ARE BASICALLY WANT TO KEEP THEM IN THEIR HOMES, THAT SOCIETY IS NOT GOING TO GO ANYWHERE.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE GOING CRAZY MORE THAN OTHERS, OR ARE FALLING APART, REALLY, A LOT OF TIMES, AND I'M SURE THIS IS GOING TO BE CONTROVERSIAL, BUT YOU WILL FIND OUT THAT THOSE COUNTRIES ARE A LOT OF COUNTRIES THAT DO NOT REALLY, AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S WHY ALL THE CHAOS IS HAPPENING, BUT THEY DID NOT...

THEY IGNORED 50% OF THEIR SOCIETY AND LEFT THEM BEHIND.

THEY DIDN'T EDUCATE THEM, THEY DID NOT SUPPORT THEM, A LOT OF TIMES.

IT WAS FUNNY BECAUSE I WAS TALKING TO A PARLIAMENTARIAN FRIEND OF MINE IN EGYPT, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

AND SHE SAID SHE WAS IN PARLIAMENT.

AND SHE SAID, I BROUGHT UP, "WHAT ABOUT THE WOMAN'S RIGHTS, THIS?"

, AND SOME GUY STOOD UP AND SAID, THAT IS, WHAT DO YOU CALL THIS?

THAT'S SECTARIANISM.

THAT'S NOT THE WOMAN'S ISSUE.

IS LIKE A RELIGION.

SO WE SAID, NO-NO, WE SHOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT THAT.

SO, THAT'S THE POINT.

WE HAVE TO REALLY BE...

THIS TOKENISM AND WOMAN EMPOWERMENT, IT DIS-EMPOWERS YOU.

WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

YOU ARE POWERFUL.

YOU ARE THERE.

YOU ARE THE TEACHER.

YOU'RE THE MOTHER.

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO'S BRINGING ALL THESE CHILDREN, AND WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE HOUSE, YOU ARE THE FOUNDATION.

SO NOBODY CAN REALLY SAY, I'M GOING TO EMPOWER A FOUNDATION.

FOUNDATION IS WHAT HOLDS THE SOCIETY.

SO WOMEN ARE FRONT AND CENTER.

SO WHEN YOU TELL THEM, "WE ARE GOING TO EMPOWER THE WOMAN", YOU'RE ACTUALLY DISEMPOWERING.

WHAT YOU NEED IS, YOU HAVE TO FIND THEIR STRENGTH AND SUPPORT THAT STRENGTH, SO THAT THEY CAN LIVE A BETTER LIFE.

BECAUSE IT WILL CHANGE THE ECONOMY, IT WILL, ACTUALLY, THEY SAY WHEN WOMEN ARE INVOLVED IN PEACE AGREEMENTS, 15% OF THE TIME, IT WORKS.

AND THEN YOU HAVE ONLY 2% OF THE WOMAN WHO EVER SIGN THIS PEACE AGREEMENT.

SO, YEAH.

WOMEN ARE ABSOLUTELY, AND I'M NOT JUST SAYING IT BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO SAY, BUT IT'S THE SMART THING TO DO, REALLY.

BECAUSE I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WOMEN SHOULD BE LEFT BEHIND, OR WHY THEY'RE ALWAYS AFTERTHOUGHT.

IT JUST, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE... AND AS WOMEN, WE NEED TO THINK THAT WAY.

WE CAN NOT THINK OF WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO LIBERATE US FROM OURSELVES.

IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

YOU HAVE TO BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE.

>>AND HIBAAQ, IF THOSE WOMEN ARE HAVING SELF-ESTEEM ISSUES, THEY'RE IN DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SITUATIONS, THERE ARE CULTURAL ISSUES INVOLVED TOO, WHAT ADVICE DO YOU GIVE THESE WOMEN WHO, THEY NEED TO FIND THAT STRENGTH THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

WHAT DO YOU USE TO HELP THEM SEE AND FIND THAT WITHIN THEM?

BECAUSE THAT'S HARD, SOMETIMES.

>>IT IS HARD.

I WAS IN SOUTH AFRICA ONCE, AND I WENT TO VISIT A SHELTER AND IT NEVER, UP TO NOW, I'M HAVING NIGHTMARES ABOUT IT.

THERE WAS THIS WOMAN WITH THREE KIDS, AND HER HUSBAND WAS LOOKING FOR HER.

AND IF HE FOUND WHERE SHE WAS, HE WAS GOING TO KILL HER, AND KILL THE CHILDREN AND EVERYONE.

AND I'M TALKING TO THE WOMAN AND ONE EYE, SHE'S KEEPING HER SON AND HELPING HIM TO DO HOMEWORK.

THE OTHER EYE, THE YOUNGER CHILD WANTS TO RUN OUTSIDE TO PLAY, AND SHE HAS THE OTHER EYE ON THIS.

THE OTHER ONE, SHE IS WATCHING THE ONE THAT'S FEEDING ANOTHER ONE.

SO NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE, WOMEN ARE ALWAYS TAKING THEIR RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE FAMILY AND FOR THEMSELVES.

SO SUPPORTING THEM AND HELPING THEM SO THEY CAN GET OUT THAT FEAR, A, YOU HAVE TO COME UP WITH STRONG LAWS THAT DOES NOT ALLOW FOR A MAN TO TOUCH OR BEAT A WOMAN.

YOU HAVE TO KEEP THOSE VIOLENT MEN, OR CRIMINALS AWAY FROM THEM, BY LAW, SERIOUSLY.

BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES WE HEAR NIGHTMARES WERE THE WOMAN CALL THE POLICE, AND THE POLICE DOES NOT TAKE HER SERIOUSLY.

OR IN OUR CULTURES, THE FAMILY OR THE TRIBE GETS INVOLVED.

AND THEN THEY SAY, THAT FAMILY TOO.

AND THEN IN A WEEK OR FEW DAYS, THAT WOMAN GETS KILLED.

SO, NUMBER ONE, YOU NEED THE LAW.

AND NUMBER TWO, DON'T KEEP THEM IN SHELTERS.

HOW MANY SHELTERS ARE WE GOING TO OPEN UP FOR WOMEN?

THAT SHELTER ISSUE SHOULD BE TEMPORARILY.

AND THEN YOU HAVE TO FIND THE RESOURCES TO MAKE SURE THAT SHE'S NOT HOMELESS, THAT HER CHILDREN ARE GOING TO SCHOOL.

THAT IS THE WAY TO SUPPORT.

SUPPORTING IS NOT JUST TO SHOW WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN BEATEN UP, AND THEIR PICTURES, AND THEN RAISING MONEY FOR THEM.

THAT'S NOT WHAT IT IS.

YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT HER, SENDING HER CHILDREN TO SCHOOL, GO BACK TO SCHOOL.

MAKING SURE THAT ECONOMICALLY, THAT SHE CAN AFFORD THE HOUSE, THAT SHE CAN FIND A JOB.

AND PREPARING HER AND THOSE WHO ARE NOT EDUCATED, TRAINING THEM FOR A JOB AND GUARANTEE THEM FOR A JOB.

THIS IS WHAT IT IS.

THIS WHOLE IDEA OF SHELTER IS VERY GOOD, BUT IT HAS TO BE TEMPORARILY.

THE LAW, THE POLICE, THE POLITICIANS, IT NEEDS A WHOLE NATION TO WORK TO MAKE SURE THAT WOMAN IS SUPPORTED.

>>WE'RE RUNNING LOW ON TIME.

SO VERY BRIEFLY, HOW DO YOU DEFINE SUCCESS?

>>BEING SAFE.

>>EXCELLENT.

>>BEING SAFE AND GOING OUT, AND JUST SAYING, "OH!

NO ONE IS GOING TO COME AND KILL ME".

YEAH.

BEING SAFE AND SECURE.

AND MAKING SURE THAT YOU DON'T GET... THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY IMAGINE TOMORROW, A BETTER TOMORROW.

>>WELL, HIBAAQ OSMAN, IT'S BEEN A REAL PLEASURE TO TALK TO YOU.

YOU'RE DOING SOME FANTASTIC AND VERY IMPORTANT WORK.

AND WE COMMEND YOU AND LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING TO YOU AGAIN IN THE FUTURE.

>>THANK YOU.

IT HAS BEEN A PLEASURE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DAVID.

THAT'S AWESOME.

>>AND THANK YOU.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

ON ANOTHER EPISODE OF GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.