ONE EXAMPLE OF THE ERODING TRUST IN AMERICA'S INSTITUTIONS.

FOR DECADES, AN ELITE MAJORITY HAS WEAPONIZED LANGUAGE AND PROMOTED FALSE HISTORY ACCORDING TO HISTORIAN HEATHER COX RICHARDSON.

SHE EXPLORES THIS IN HER NEW BOOK.

>> THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> SUCH A PLEASURE.

>> AS YOU AND I ARE SPEAKING NOW, WE'RE IN THIS REALLY STRANGE MOMENT WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, KEVIN McCARTHY, IS LOSING HIS JOB BECAUSE HE COMPROMISED WITH THE DEMOCRATS TO KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OPEN.

ALL THESE OTHER THINGS.

LOOKING AT ALL THE THINGS GOING ON IN OUR POLITICS AT THE MOMENT, IS THERE A WAY YOU CAN PUT THIS INTO CONTEXT FOR US?

>> YES.

BUT LET'S START WITH WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

THE IDEA THAT THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE TO WORK WITH DEMOCRATS TO KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OPEN IS SOMEHOW SOMETHING THAT MAKES HIM IN HIS OWN CONFERENCE BE UNPOPULAR.

THAT IS COMPLETELY ANTITHETICAL TO THE WAY THIS GOVERNMENT WAS ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO WORK.

SO FROM THE BEGINNING WE'RE IN A REALLY UNUSUAL MOMENT.

ONE OF THE THING THAT I STUDY IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

ONE OF THE THINGS I LIKE TO EMPHASIZE, THIS IS NOT YOUR MOTHER'S REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IT HAS BECOME AN EXTREMIST FACTION THAT HAS WITHIN ITS GOALS TO GET RID OF THE KIND OF GOVERNMENT UNDER WHICH WE'VE LIVED SINCE 1933.

SO YOU HAVE TO START FROM THE PREMISE THAT YOU CAN'T BOTH SIDES THIS ISSUE.

WE HAVE A NATIONAL PROBLEM THAT IS EMBODIED BY ONE HARD-RIGHT EXTREMIST PARTY.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY THE DEMOCRATS ARE RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING BUT THIS IS A MOMENT IN WHICH WE HAVE TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND RECOGNIZE A LARGER CHALLENGE TO OUR DEMOCRACY THAT HAPPENS TO BE EMBODIED RIGHT NOW BY A CERTAIN PARTISAN DIVISION, BUT ONE THAT ECHOS OTHER MOMENTS IN OUR HISTORY THAT WE GOT THROUGH BY WORKING TOGETHER TO ISOLATE EXTREMISTS.

>> AND I'LL ASK YOU TO WALK US THROUGH YOUR ARGUMENT.

THAT IS THE SUBJECT OF YOUR BOOK, "DEMOCRACY AWAKENING."

I WANT TO SKIP AHEAD TO THE POINT YOU MAKE SEVERAL TIMES IN THE BOOK.

YOU MAKE THE POINT VERY PERSUASIVELY AND CHILLINGLY, I HAVE TO SAY, THAT SOMETIMES PEOPLE GET TO THE POINT WHERE THEY'RE SO INVEST IN THE THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM, THEY DON'T CARE WHAT'S TRUE.

SO I'M JUST INTERESTED IN, IF YOU BELIEVE THAT IS WHERE WE ARE, HOW DO YOU ADDRESS THAT?

>> WELL, YES, AND THAT'S NOT ORIGINAL TO ME.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT SCHOLARS OF AUTHORITARIANISM AND TOTALITARIANISM HAVE IDENTIFIED AT LEAST SINCE WORLD WAR II.

THE QUESTION IS THIS.

WHY DO WE NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE RISE OF DICTATORS?

WHEN THE REAL PROBLEM IS THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THE DICTATORS.

EVERY GENERATION HAS AUTHORITARIANS AND DICTATORS.

BUT ONLY IN SOME GENERATIONS DO THEY GET ENOUGH TRACTION TO TAKE OVER A GOVERNMENT.

I THINK WHAT WE SEE NOWADAYS IS THE RISE OF POLITICS THAT ERASES REALITY IN FAVOR OF A REALLY ATTRACTIVE IMAGE.

OR ATTRACTIVE IMAGE FOR SOME PEOPLE.

WHAT THAT SAYS IS WE CAN TAKE YOU PEOPLE WHO FEEL DISAFFECTED, ECONOMICALLY OR RELIGIOUSLY OR CULTURALLY, SOCIALLY, AND WE CAN MAKE YOU FEEL AS IMPORTANT AS YOU USED TO.

THE WAY WE'LL DO THAT IS BY GOING BACK TO A SERIES OF LAWS THAT ARE EITHER DIVINE OR SET DOWN BY THE UNIVERSE THAT OUR ENEMIES, AND WHO THOSE ENEMIES ARE DOESN'T REALLY MATTER, ARE IGNORING.

AND ON THAT BEAUTIFUL STORY, A NUMBER OF PEOPLE BEGIN TO REST THEIR IDENTITIES.

THEY DON'T NECESSARILY EXPECT THEIR LIVES WILL GET BETTER.

THEY EXPECT THEY'RE DEFENDING THIS TRADITIONAL IMAGE OF A COUNTRY.

THIS IS NOT UNIQUE TO THE UNITED STATES.

THE TRICK TO THIS IS THOUGH, PEOPLE BEGIN TO BE ATTRACTED BY THAT FALSE REALITY.

SOME PEOPLE REALLY DO GIVE UP THEIR IDENTITIES.

MOST PEOPLE ARE MORE THAN WILLING TO EMBRACE A DIFFERENT IDENTITY.

AN IDENTITY THAT ACTUALLY SOLVES PROBLEMS.

AN IDENTITY THAT ACTUALLY MOVES THIS COUNTRY FORWARD TO EXPAND DEMOCRACY AS THEY HAVE IN THE PAST.

THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WE WANT TO BE TALKING TO AND EMPHASIZING RIGHT NOW.

NOT THE 20% OF AMERICANS WHO ARE SIMPLY LOST.

AND YOU WILL SEE THAT IN ANY KIND OF RISE OF A TOTALITARIAN MOVEMENT.

AND THEN IT'S FALL.

SOME PEOPLE CANNOT LET GO OF THAT IDENTITY BUT MOST PEOPLE CAN RECOGNIZE, EITHER THAT THEY'VE BEEN DUPED AND THEY'VE BECOME APATHETIC OR THEY NEED TO FIGHT BACK AND TAKE BACK A REAL COUNTRY.

>> SO WHO IS YOUR BOOK FOR?

WHO ARE YOU WRITING FOR?

>> SO THIS BOOK IS FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO UNDERSTAND OUR COUNTRY, WANT TO FEEL A PART OF IT, BUT FEEL LIKE THERE IS TOO MUCH COMING AT THEM TO UNDERSTAND ALL THE DIFFERENT PIECES.

WHEN DID THE PARTIES SWITCH SIDE?

WHAT IS THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE?

WHAT DOES THE CONSTITUTION SAY IN THE 14th AMENDMENT?

ALL THOSE THINGS IN THE NEWS BUT AREN'T THERE IN SUCH AN ORDERLY WAY THAT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THEY WILL.

SO THIS IS A SERIES OF SHORT ESSAYS THAT TAKE YOU THROUGH HOW WE GOT HERE FROM 1937 TO 2015.

WHAT THE RISE OF AN AUTHORITARIAN MEN FROM 2015 TO THE PRESENT, AND THAT FINAL SECTION, HOW DO WE LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO CAME BEFORE US AND HOW THEY FACE AD SIMILAR MOMENT AND GOT OUT OF IT?

>> LET'S START WITH THE NEW DEAL.

THAT IS THE FIRST SECTION OF THE BOOK.

YOU SAID FDR CREATED A LIBERAL COULD N CONSENSUS THAT DEFINED AFTER WORLD WAR II.

HOW DID THAT LIBERAL CONSENSUS COME ABOUT?

WAS IT THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY SAW MATERIAL IMPROVEMENT IN THEIR LIVES?

OR WAS IT THE EXTERNAL THREAT OF THE WAR?

>> THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE OF WHAT IS GOING ON.

I'M GLAD YOU CALLED THAT OUT.

THE LIBERAL CONSENSUS COMES NOT ONLY FROM FDR WHO DOES IN FACT HELP PEOPLE'S MATERIAL LIVES DURING THE DEPRESSION BY INVENTING A GOVERNMENT, OR PICKING UP A GOVERNMENT THAT REGULATES BUSINESS, PROVIDES A BASIC SOCIAL SAFETY NET, PROMOTES INFRASTRUCTURE, THINGS LIKE THE TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY, AND BEGINS TO FLIRT WITH THE IDEA OF THE GOVERNMENT PROTECTING CIVIL RIGHTS IN THE STATES.

IT'S NOT REALLY THE DEMOCRATS WHO PUSHED THAT.

ALTHOUGH TRUMAN DOES QUITE A LOT.

IT IS UNDER REPUBLICAN DWIGHT EISENHOWER THAT THE GOVERNMENT BEGINS TO PROTECT HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE STATES.

AND THOSE FOUR PIECES MAKE THE LIBERAL CONSENSUS WHICH DOES HELP PEOPLE'S ECONOMIC LIVES.

THAT MATTERS BECAUSE WHEN PEOPLE'S ECONOMIC LIVES ARE BETTER HISTORICALLY IN THE UNITED STATES, THEY ARE MUCH MORE WILLING TO ACCORD RIGHTS TO PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THEY'RE NOT WHEN THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE.

THEY ARE FIRST A REACTION TO THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY HAS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE DEPRESSION.

CRUCIALLY, WHAT FDR BEGINS TO DO IS TO ARTICULATE THE PRINCIPLES OF DEMOCRACY THAT MINORITY POPULATIONS HAVE BEEN HOLDING HIGH ALL ALONG.

SO HE BEGINS VERY ARTICULATELY TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY, AND TO DEFEND THE PRINCIPLES OF DEMOCRACY AGAINST FASCISM, FOR EXAMPLE, IN A WAY THAT REALLY INSPIRES PEOPLE TO CARRY THAT TORCH FORWARD.

AND YOU CAN SEE IT REALLY DRAMATICALLY IN THE MOMENT THAT ROME FALLS, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND HE GIVES A VERY POWERFUL SPEECH ABOUT EVEN THOUGH THE FASCISTS PROMISE EVERYTHING, LOOK WHO IS FEEDING THE STARVING PEOPLE IN ROME.

IT'S US, THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS.

SO THAT IDEA OF HELPING PEOPLE AT A VERY BASIC ECONOMIC LEVEL AND ALSO THE SOON TO BE AT THE LEVEL OF CIVIL RIGHTS AND THE STATES THEN BACK'S PROFOUND DEFENSE OF THE CONCEPT OF HUMAN SELF-DETERMINATION AS IT IS EMBODIED IN DEMOCRACY.

>> YOU DRAW A THROUGH LINE FROM FDR TO JOE BIDEN.

THE INFLAKES REDUCTION ACT AND SO FORTH.

YOU ALSO DRAW A THROUGH LINE THROUGH THE COUNTER VEILING FORCES WHO YOU SAY TRY TO MARSHAL RACIAL GRIEVANCE IN THE SERVICE OF AN UNBALANCED ECONOMY THAT BENEFITS THE FEW AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MANY.

I'M SOAR CURIOUS.

WHEN YOU SAY, WE'VE SEEN THIS HAVE MANY OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WHY DOES IT STILL WORK?

>> I'M MAKING THE POINT THAT THAT IDEA THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS CERTAINLY RUNS ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE UNITED STATES.

THROUGH THE 1890s AND THE RISE OF THE ROBBER BARONS AND THE SLAVERS IN THE 1850s, ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE FOUNDING FATHERS.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, I THINK WHAT I'M REALLY ARTICULATING IS THE ONGOING STRUGGLE, AT LEAST IN THE UNITED STATES, BETWEEN THE CONCEPTS THAT EVERYBODY IS CREATED EQUAL AND HAS AN EQUAL RIGHT TO BE TREATED EQUALLY BY THE LAWS AND ON THE OTHER HAND, THE IDEA THAT SOME PEOPLE REALLY ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS AND HAVE A DUTY AND A RIGHT TO RULE OVER THE REST OF US.

THOSE ARE TWO REALLY FUNDAMENTAL IDEAS ABOUT THE WAY HUMAN SOCIETY SHOULD BE ORGANIZED.

NOW, WHY WE KEEP EMBRACING THE ONE, THE EXPANSION OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, AND THEN ABANDONING IT, I THINK IT COMES FROM THE FACT THAT BECAUSE IT WORKS, PEOPLE TEND TO THINK WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE IT AND THEY STOP PAYING ATTENTION AND THEY STOP DEFENDING IT.

IN 1960 THERE WAS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST WHO SAID, LISTEN.

WE ALL AGREE ON A LIBERAL CONSENSUS.

LET'S STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

AND INSTEAD, BUILD COALITIONS FOR THINGS THAT WANT DIFFERENT THINGS FROM THAT LIBERAL GOVERNMENT.

WHEN THAT HAPPENED, THAT LEFT ROOM FOR A NEW NARRATIVE TO COME UP OF THE SMALL FACTION OF PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO OVERTURN THE LIBERAL CONSENSUS.

THEY GAVE US THE IDEA OF THE COWBOY STANDING ALONE AGAINST THE BIG GOVERNMENT.

THE SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT.

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM, WHEN THINGS LOOK LIKE THEY'RE STABLE, WE BACK OFF AND SAY WE'RE ALL SET NOW AND THAT OPENS THE WAY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE STANDING AGAINST THAT CONSENSUS TO GET A REAL FOOT HOLD.

>> ON THE ONE HAND, MANY PEOPLE CONSIDER OUR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS TO BE AT A TIME OF GREAT PERIL.

BUT THEN OTHER PEOPLE WOULD LOOK AT THIS AND SAY THEY'VE SURVIVED BEFORE.

THEY'VE SURVIVED GRIEVOUS THREATS.

THE CIVIL WAR, FOR EXAMPLE.

IS THERE SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY SELF-PROTECTIVE ABOUT THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE THAT ACTS AS, A I DON'T KNOW, BULWARK AGAINST THIS.

>> WHAT YOU'VE IDENTIFIED TO ME IS THE EXCITING PART OF THIS BOOK.

AND THAT IS, THE CENTRAL QUESTION.

WHY WHEN ALL SORTS OF OTHER COUNTRIES FELL TO FASCISM, WHY DIDN'T AMERICA?

WHAT I CAME TO BELIEVE IS THAT WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS BOOK, THROUGH MY YEARS AS AN HISTORIAN, THE UNITED STATES HAS IN A FUNNY WAY HAD AN INOCULATION AGAINST FASCISM.

FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT IT HAS ALWAYS HAD SUCH A COMPLICATED HISTORY WITH RACE AND IMMIGRATION.

THAT IS THAT MARGINALIZED AMERICANS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING CENTERED THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND THE IDEA THEY MUST BE TREATED EQUALLY BEFORE THE LAWS AND THEY MUST HAVE A RIGHT TO A SAY IN THEIR GOVERNMENT.

WHILE OTHER COUNTRIES COULD TAKE THAT FOR GRANTED OR SAY THAT THIS HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED, WE DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT.

AMERICANS WERE OUT THERE EVERY MINUTE SAYING, HEY, WAIT A MINUTE, WHAT ABOUT US?

AND BECAUSE OF THAT, THAT CONSTANT STRUGGLE TO MAKE THAT LIBERAL DEMOCRACY ACTUALLY BECOME REAL, AMERICANS HAD IT IN FRONT OF THEM AND STILL HAVE IT IN FRONT OF US IN A WAY THAT WE MIGHT NOT, WERE WE NOT SUCH A MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY.

>> AN EXAM OF PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT HISTORICALLY MARGE ALLIESED PEOPLE ARE THE ONES WHO HOLD AMERICA TO ITS IDEALS.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY JUMPED OUT IS THE NAACP, THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED PEOPLE WHICH WAS FORMED IN 1909, SORT OF TECHNICALLY AROUND-ISH ABRAHAM LINCOLN'S BIRTHDAY WHITE DELIBERATELY.

IT IS A MULTIRACIAL, MULTIRELIGIOUS, MULTICULTURAL GROUP THAT SAYS WE MUST MAKE THE PRINCIPLES OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE TO EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY.

YOU LOOK AT THE NAACP AS ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF IT IS IDA B.

WELLS, A FJOURNALIST IN THE LAT 19th AND 20th CENTURIES.

ONE OF THE OTHER PEOPLE, DEBOYCE, A BRILLIANT SOCIOLOGIST.

CO-DO ANYTHING HE WANTS.

WHAT DID DOUGH?

HE DECIDES TO EDIT THE CRISIS.

HE TAKES ALL THE EXTRAORDINARY TALENTS TO THE MAGAZINE AND CONSTANTLY HAMMERS ON, THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS IN THIS COUNTRY TO HAVE SOME PEOPLE TREATED DIFFERENTLY BEFORE THE LAW THAN OTHERS.

IF YOU GO FORWARD FROM THAT MOMENT OF 1909, THE NAACP IS CONSTANTLY HANGING OUT FLAGS EVERY TIME SOMEBODY IS LYNCHED.

MAKING SURE THE POPULAR FIGURES IN AMERICAN CULTURE ARE OUT THERE TALKING ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS WHEN IN FACT A YOUNG WOMAN WALKING HOME FROM CHURCH IS GANG-RAPED.

WHAT IT MEANS WHEN SOMEBODY COMES HOME FROM FIGHTING IF WORLD WAR II AND HAS HIS EYES PUT OUT.

EVEN THOUGH THE PERPETRATOR CONFESSES TO THE CRIME, ENDS UP BEING ACQUITTED OF IT.

THEY KEEP THAT IN FRONT OF PEOPLE CONSTANTLY.

WHEN IT ABOUT THE EXPANSION OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY IN MY ERA, WE TEND TO FOCUS ON HEROES.

FOR EXAMPLE, ROSA PARKS AND SAY HERE FEET WERE TIRED.

SHE WORKED FOR THE NAACP.

SHE HAD BEEN OUT THERE IN THE FIELD COLLECTING THESE STAT STATISTICS, WORKING WITH PEOPLE, MAKING SURE PEOPLE KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE NAACP BECOMES THIS EXTRAORDINARILY POWERFUL WAY TO SHINE LIGHT ON THIS FUNDAMENTAL CONTRADICTION.

THEY'RE A GREAT EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE SAYING, HEY, WAIT A MINUTE.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL.

IT'S NOT ABOUT A CERTAIN GROUP.

IT'S ABOUT THE COUNTRY AND WHAT THIS COUNTRY IS SUPPOSED TO STAND FOR.

>> HOW DO YOU ADDRESS, BASED ON YOUR HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE AND YOUR DEEP REPORTING, THE ONGOING POWER OF WHITE GRIEVANCE?

AND FOR WHATEVER REASON, AS YOU POINTED OUT IN YOUR BOOK, THIS KIND OF, WE'RE NOT GETTING OUR FAIR SHARE ARGUMENT.

OR THAT THESE PEOPLE, THESE OTHER PEOPLE, THESE MINORITY PEOPLE, THESE BROWN PEOPLE ARE GETTING MORE THAN THEIR FAIR SHARE AT THE EXPENSE OF US.

IT IS A VERY POWERFUL ARGUMENT.

HOW DO WELL-MEANING PEOPLE WHO DO BELIEVE IN A GOVERNMENT AND IN A COUNTRY THAT INCLUDES ALL THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE AND CONTRIBUTE TO IT, SHOULD BENEFIT FROM IT.

HOW DOES ONE ADDRESS THAT?

>> WELL, HISTORICALLY, THAT IS WORKED BY MAKING THE ECONOMIC PIE FAIRER.

PEOPLE ARE VERY SUSCEPTIBLE TO THAT LANGUAGE.

WHITE PEOPLE ARE VERY SUSCEPTIBLE TOM LANGUAGE WHEN THEIR OWN TABLES ARE BARER THAN THEY USED TO BE.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THE RISE OF WHITE GRIEVANCE TRACKS VERY CLOSELY TO THE WEALTH AT THE TOP OF THE SCALE.

YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE 1990s, IN THE 1850s.

THE 1850s AND THE EARLY 1860s IN THE AMERICAN SOUTH.

IN FACT, WELTD WAS DRAMATICALLY CONCENTRATED IN 1% OF THE WHITE POPULATION, MUCH OF IT HOMELESS.

SO IT'S ALWAYS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THOSE THING TRACK EXECLY AS WELL.

>> LET'S SAY, I KNOW YOU IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS A CONSERVATIVE.

YOU SAY THE WAY LINCOLN DID.

THESE WERE THE PRINCIPLES ARTICULATED IN THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENT.

WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY?

WHO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT?

I'M A CONSERVATIVE BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN SMALL GOVERNMENT.

I BELIEVE THAT TRADITIONAL FAMILY STRUCTURES ARE THE BEST.

I BELIEVE IN A MINIMAL FEDERAL FOOTPRINT.

DO YOU HAVE AN ARGUMENT FOR THEM?

>> YES.

AND THE ANSWER IS, OF COURSE, BY REACHING BACK TO LINCOLN AND TRYING TO RECLAIM THE MANTLE OF CONSERVATISM FOR PROGRESSIVISM, I'M TRYING TO MAKE THE POINT THAT TODAY'S REPUBLICANS WHO TALK ABOUT SMALL GOVERNMENT ARE SIMPLY NOT TRYING TO DO THAT AT ALL.

THEY'RE IN FACT TALKING ABOUT A LARGE GOVERNMENT THAT WILL IMPOSE CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM ON THE REST OF US.

WE NEED TO HAVE WORKING POLITICAL PARTIES THAT ARE FUNCTIONING IN THE REAL WORLD IN THIS MOMENT.

AND IT'S THE GIVE AND TAKE BETWEEN THOSE THINGS THAT WILL GET US TO A REASONABLE GOVERNMENT THAT OPERATES IN THE REAL WORLD.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

AND WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW IS THAT THOSE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THOSE THINGS NEED TO WORK WITH PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON IT TO GET RID OF THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH THOSE PRINCIPLES ALTOGETHER.

THEY WANT TO GET RID OF THE AMERICAN GOV BUT DOES THINGS LIKE PROTECT CIVIL RIGHTS, THAT DOES THINGS LIKE REGULATE BUSINESS OR HAS A BASIC SOCIAL SAFETY NET OR PROMOTES STRUCTURE.

THOSE THINGS THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS AGREE ON.

IT IS TRADITIONAL IN THIS COUNTRY.

THEY ARE THE THINGS UNDER WHICH WE TEND TO HAVE THE MOST JUST SOCIETY.

ECONOMICALLY, CULTURALLY, AND RELIGIOUSLY.

AND THOSE ARE THE TRUE VALUES OF AMERICANS.

AND THOSE ARE THE THINGS ON WHICH WE NEED TO STAND RIGHT NOW.

ONCE WE'VE DONE THAT, SURE, LET'S GO FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL ABOUT MORTGAGE RATES.

LET'S GO FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL ABOUT WHAT TO DO IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

UNTIL WE HAVE THE RESTORATION OF OUR DEMOCRACY, THE REST OF IT NEEDS TO BE MOVED OFF THE TABLE.

>> HEATHER COX RICHARDSON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> FEIGNLEY, A REAL TREAT WITH A MUSICAL LEGEND.

HERB ALPERT MADE HIS NAME AS A TRUMPETER, SONGWRITER, AND BANDLEADER, RECORDING HITS LIKE "SPANISH FLEE" WITH HIS BAND, THE TIJUANA BRASS.

♪ W. WITH ARTISTS LIKE BURT BACHARACH AND SAM COOKE, HE SIGNED BUDDING MEGA STARS LIKE THE CARPENTERS, CAROLE KING AND JANET JACKSON.

NOW AT 88, HE'S REALLY SINGING A BRAND NEW ALBUM OF HIS OWN MUSIC CALLED "WISH UPON A STAR."

OUR WISH HAS CERTAINLY BEEN GRANTED TODAY.

HE JOINS US NOW.

I DO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE THE FIRST TRUMPETER TO MAKE AN APPEARANCE ON AMANPOUR.

DON'T QUOTE ME ON IT.

>> I LIKE IT.

>> IT IS SO GREAT TO SEE YOU.

I CAN'T BEGIN TO TELL YOU HOW EXCITED WE'VE BEEN FOR THIS SEGMENT TO BE ABLE TO TALK TO YOU, AND CONGRATULATIONS ON THE NEW ALBUM.

LET'S JUST START THERE.

IT HAS DEBUTED ALREADY IN NUMBER ONE ON THE CHARTS FOR CONTEMPORARY JAZZ ALBUMS.

IT IS A COLLECTION.

IT TAKES ON CLASSIC SONGS FROM THE BEATLES, AND ELVIS, AND THE NAME SAKE, WHEN YOU WISH UPON AER AT A. I WANT TO PLAY A RENDITION OF EASTBOUND AND DOWN.

>> OH, BOY.

♪ ♪ >> THAT TAKES ME BACK.

TALK TO US ABOUT THIS NEW ALBUM AND WHY YOU CHOSE TO MAKE IT.

>> WELL, IT'S JUST A SERIES OF SONG THAT HAUNT ME.

THAT SONG THAT YOU JUST PLAYED, I SAW THAT SMOKY AND THE BANDIT MOVIE ABOUT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO, AND I COULDN'T GET THIS SONG OUT OF MY MIND.

IT WAS WRITTEN BY JERRY REED.

HE WAS IN THE MOVIE.

HE WAS DRIVING AN 18-WHEELER, AND THE SONG WAS PLAYING.

AND EVER SINCE THEN, I JUST FELT, IS THERE A WAY I CAN DO THIS SONG THAT MAYBE HASN'T BEEN DONE THAT WAY BEFORE?

AND JUST DID IT.

AND LO AND BEHOLD, I GOT INVITED TO PLAY WITH THE GRAND OLE OPRY, AND I DID IT ABOUT A MONTH AGO.

IT WAS A FABULOUS NIGHT.

ONE OF THE BEST NIGHTS OF MY LIFE AS A MUSICIAN.

>> YOU HAVE A LEGION OF FANS FROM AMATEURS, AND THOSE WHO ARE PROFESSIONALS ALIKE.

MILES DAVIS SAID YOU HEAR THREE NOTES AND YOU KNOW IT IS HERB ALPERT.

TELL US MORE ABOUT YOUR UNIQUE STYLE.

IN FACT, WE SHOULD TELL VIEWERS, YOUR SONG "RISE" HAS BEEN CITED BY SEVERAL WRITERS INCLUDING NOTORIOUS B.I.G.

>> I JUST WRITE SONGS THAT TOUCH ME.

I TRY TO BE HONEST THE WAY I PLAY.

I'M A JAZZ MUSICIAN AT HEART.

I LIKE IMPROVISATIONAL TYPE MUSIC.

AND I JUST GO FOR THE SONGS THAT MAKE ME FEEL GOOD WHEN I HEAR IT.

ODDLY ENOUGH, I DON'T KNOW IF I'VE TOLD THIS TO TOO MANY PEOPLE.

ANYBODY LISTENING?

I MAKE SONGS FOR MYSELF.

I RECORD SONGS THAT MAKE ME FEEL GOOD.

AND THEN IF I HAVE A COLLECTION OF SONGS, I'LL PUT THEM IN AN AL BUM.

THAT'S ABOUT IT.

I DON'T HAVE LIKE A MAJOR PLAN, ACTUALLY.

I GET LUCKY.

AND I GOT LUCKY WITH, SOMEBODY PICKED UP ONE OF MY SONGS THAT I RECORDED 60 YEARS AGO ON TIKTOK.

AND SO FAR, I'VE HAD 200 MILLION STREAMS ON THAT ONE SONG CALLED "LADY FINGERS."

SO THIS IS TOTALLY OUT OF THE BLUE.

>> I THINK IT TAKES A LITTLE MORE THAN LUCK BUT LUCK GOES A LONG WAY, TOO.

YOU'VE HAD LUCK FOR 80 YEARS NOW.

YOU WERE 8 YEARS OLD WHEN YOU FIRST PICKED UP A TRUMPET.

I GUESS IT WAS LOVE AT FIRST SOUND.

SPEAKING OF TIMELESS MUSIC, CAN WE PLAY SAM COOKE'S "WONDERFUL WORLD"?

♪ DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT HISTORY ♪ ♪ DON'T KNOW MUCH BIOLOGY ♪ DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT SCIENCE BOOKS ♪ ♪ DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE FRENCH I TOOK ♪ ♪ BUT I DO KNOW THAT I LOVE YOU ♪ ♪ AND I KNOW THAT IF YOU LOVE ME TOO ♪ ♪ WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD THIS WOULD BE ♪ >> I MEAN, TALK ABOUT TIMELESS MUSIC.

THAT IS JUST A SONG THAT YOU CAN HEAR TIME AND TIME AGAIN NO MATTER HOW OLD YOU ARE, NO THE MAER WHO YOU WERE WITH.

WHEN YOU HEAR THAT SONG NOW, DOES IT RESONATE WITH YOU DIFFERENTLY THAN IT DID THE FIRST, I DON'T KNOW, THOUSAND TIMES YOU DID?

>> WELL, IT DOES.

I LEARNED A LOT FROM SAM.

SAM WAS A FANTASTIC ARTIST.

A WONDERFUL GENTLEMAN.

HE USED TO COME TO ME WITH A NOTEBOOK FILLED WITH LYRICS.

HE SHOWED ME THIS LYRIC AND HE SAID, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE LYRIC?

HE LOOKED AT ME.

THIS IS THE CORNIEST LYRIC I'VE EVER SEEN.

I DIDN'T SAY THAT TO HIM.

I SAID WHAT DOES THE SONG SOUND LIKE?

HE PICKED UP HIS GUITAR AND STARTED SINGING THIS SONG.

AND I'M SAYING, HOLY -- IT AIN'T WHAT YOU DO.

IT'S THE WAY HOW YOU DO IT.

THE WAY HE PHRASED THE SONG, THE MELODY HE PUT TO THE SONG.

THE PASSION HE PUT INTO IT.

I SAID THAT'S MUSIC.

THAT'S MAKING MUSIC.

I LEARNED A LOT FROM HIM.

WHEN I HEAR THAT SONG, I THINK ABOUT SAM.

HE WAS A LOVELY PERSON.

>> WE SHOULD NOTE THAT YOU AND YOU ARE WHY PARTNER AT A & M, YOUR ROSTER, CAROLE KING, JANET JACKSON, WELL, JERRY RECENTLY PASSED AWAY.

I'M SORRY FOR THE LOSS OF YOUR PARTNER AND DEAR FRIEND AND A LOSS TO THE MUSIC WORLD.

I WANT TO READ SOMETHING STING SAID IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

HE SAID THEY WERE GENTLEMEN.

I THINK THEIR EXTRAORDINARY SUCCESS WAS REALLY PREDICATED ON THOSE VERY HUMAN QUALITIES.

NOT BEING RUTHLESS BUSINESS OR KILL TO BE KILLED PEOPLE.

THEY WERE ARTIST FRIENDLY.

IT COMES AT A TIME WHEN THERE IS A DEBATE ABOUT GENIUS, NO MATTER WHAT INDUSTRY YOU'RE IN, HAS TO COME WITH SOMEBODY BEING RUTHLESS OR COOL.

YOU SORT OF DISPROVE THAT.

WOULDN'T YOU SAY?

>> WELL, I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME.

TIMING PLAYS SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART IN IT ALL.

WE WERE AT THE RIGHT PLACE.

AND PRIOR TO A & M, I RECORDED FOR A MAJOR COMPANY AND I WASN'T CRAZY ABOUT THE WAY THEY WERE TREATING ME.

I WANTED TO DO SOME THINGS THAT I THOUGHT WERE APPROPRIATE AND THEY WOULDN'T LET ME BECAUSE OF THE UPNION PROBLEMS, ET CETERA, AND I SAID IF I HAD MY OWN RECORD COMPANY, I WOULD DO IT A DIFFERENT WAY.

THE RECORD COMPANY, THE MUSIC COMPANY SHOULD REVOLVE AROUND THE ARTIST AND THAT'S THE WAY WE MADE IT.

>> I HAVE TO MENTION THAT BEHIND YOU, I SPY A TRUMPET.

AND I WOULD BE KICKING MYSELF IF I DIDN'T ASK YOU, IF YOU DON'T MIND, IF YOU WOULD FEEL -- [ LAUGHTER ] >> WOULD YOU LIKE TO HEAR?

>> I'LL LET YOU PICK.

>> ANY PARTICULAR KEY?

>> I'LL LET YOU PICK.

I WON'T BE GREEDY HERE.

>> SO IT STARTED OUT WITH -- ♪ SO THAT'S THE ONE.

♪ ♪ THAT WAS WHAT YOU ALREADY PLAYED BEFORE.

SPA SPAN FLEA.

AND THEN -- ♪ ♪ THAT WAS THE NUMBER ONE RECORD.

I HAVE THIS RECORD OF BEING THE ONLY ARTIST THAT HAS THE NUMBER ONE RECORD AS A VOCALIST, THIS GUY IS IN LOVE WITH YOU, AND THAT SONG I JUST PLAYED, RISE.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> I LOVE THAT SONG, SMILE.

A SONG WE PLAY IN CONCERT AND EVERY TIME I DO IT, IT GETS A GREAT REACTION.

SOMETHING ABOUT THAT MELODY.

IT IS ALL ABOUT MELODY.

I THINK IT IS ALL ABOUT MELODY.

YOU CERTAINLY HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD LYRIC IF YOU'RE WRITING, YOU KNOW, A VOCAL.

BUT THE MELODY IS SUPREME.

A GREAT LYRIC WITHOUT A GOOD MELODY ISN'T GOING TO GO AS FAR AS A GREAT MELODY WITH A GREAT LYRIC.

THAT'S BURT BACHARACH.

>> JUST LOVELY.

I DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO SPEAK.

I DIDN'T WANT TO INTERRUPT THAT BEAUTIFUL MUSIC WITH THE SOUND OF MY VOICE.

IN THE FINAL SECONDS WE HAVE LEFT, WHAT IS NEXT FOR YOU?

YOU GOT A NEW ALBUM.

YOU'RE CLEARLY SO PASSIONATE ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

WHAT DO YOU ENJOY DOING NOW?

>> WELL, I WANT TO GIVE BACK AS MUCH AS I CAN TO ARTISTS.

I THINK ARTISTS ARE THE HEARTBEAT OF OUR WORLD.

NOT ONLY MUSICIANS BUT PAINTERS, SCULPTORS, ACTORS, POETS, YOU KNOW, WE'RE THE ONES THAT KIND OF IDENTIFY AND MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD.

AND EVERYBODY FOR THE MOST PART IS CREATIVE.

I THINK WE KIND OF BEAT CREATIVITY OUT OF KIDS AT A YOUNG AGE.

IT WE SHOULD GET MORE CREDIT TO THE ARTS.

AND I HOPE THERE ARE POLITICIANS THAT RECOGNIZE THAT.

THE ARTISTS ARE CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT TO THE SURVIVAL OF OUR WORLD.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN A GIFT TO THIS WORLD AND I DO WANT TO CORRECT MYSELF.

YOU'RE NOT THE FIRST TRUMPETER ON WITH CHRISTIANE, OF COURSE NOT.

IN 2016, YOU'RE IN GOOD COMPANY.

SHE INTERVIEWED WHITNEY MARSALIS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

IT HAS BEEN A REAL SPECIAL TREAT.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE ALBUM.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.