>> MANY ISRAELIS AND PEOPLE THE WORLD OVER ARE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THIS BARBARITY CAME FROM.

TERRY IS A ANALYST, HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR OF HAMAS CONTAINED.

HE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT THAT ORGANIZATION FOR YEARS.

HE JOINED MICHELLE MARTIN FOR CONVERSATION ABOUT THE COMPLEX HISTORICAL AND POLITICAL DYNAMICS LEADING UP TO THE RAMPAGE OF OCTOBER 7.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT YOU ARE A HISTORIAN, YOU ARE NOT A SPOKESMAN FOR HAMAS YOU ARE NOT AN APOLOGIST FOR HAMAS YOU ARE A HISTORIAN WHO HAS STUDIED THE MOVEMENT FOR MANY YEARS.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, GIVE US THE SHORT COURSE ON HOW HAMAS DEVELOPED.

WHAT IS THE ORIGIN OF THE STORY?

>> HAMAS IS A CHAPTER OF THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WHICH IS PRESENT THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST AND COMMITTED TO WHAT THEY CALL -- IT REALLY STARTED AS A SOCIAL NETWORK THAT LOOKS AT PROVIDING EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES, HEALTHCARE, CHARITABLE WORK, VOCATIONAL CENTERS AND IT EMBEDS ITSELF IN SOCIETY AS A MOVEMENT THAT WANTS TO HELP PALESTINIANS LIVE A VIRTUOUS ISLAMIC LIFE.

IN 1987, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FIRST PALESTINIAN, WHEN PALESTINIANS ROSE UP AGAINST ISRAEL'S OCCUPATION, THAT ISLAMIC PARTY WHICH WAS PRESENT IN THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES SPAWNED OFF INTO WHAT CAME TO BE KNOWN AS HAMAS.

HAMAS IS THE HAS BEEN ISLAMIC RESISTANCE PARTY.

IT IS COMMITTED TO THE LIBERATION OF PALESTINE THROUGH THE USE OF ARMED STRUGGLE.

IT IS BELIEVED THE ONLY WAY ISRAEL IS COMPELLED TO END THEIR OCCUPATION IS THROUGH RESISTANCE AND ARMED FORCE.

>> IS THERE A PIVOTAL MOMENT WHEN HAMAS CREATED ITS OWN MOVEMENT AS IT WERE?

SORT OF APART FROM OTHERS THAT WERE THERE?

WAS THERE A PIVOTAL EVENT?

>> IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF.

HAMAS PARENTS, LET'S SAY THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD BELIEVED IN ONE THING, THEY BELIEVED IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE LIBERATION, PALESTINIANS NEED TO HAVE A SOCIETY.

IT FOCUSED ON THE SOCIAL ELEMENTS RATHER THAN POLITICAL OR MILITARY ELEMENT OF RESISTING THE OCCUPATION.

AT THE BEGINNING WE SAW PALESTINIANS ENGAGE IN POPULAR STRUGGLE THROUGHOUT PALESTINE AGAINST ISRAELI OCCUPYING FORCES AND ISRAEL RESPONDED WITH FORCE.

-- BEING CALLED ON THE ISRAELI ARMY TO BREAK UP THE PROTESTERS AND HERE WE ARE TALKING MOSTLY CHILDREN GOING OUT TO FIGHT WITH ROCKS AGAINST TANKS.

HAMAS AT THE TIME SAW THIS AS A VERY CRITICAL ESCALATION AND DECIDED THAT THE LONG-TERM PROJECT OF LIBERATION HAD TO BE SWITCHED ON ITS HEAD.

RATHER THAN, BEFORE LIBERATION THE GROUP DECIDED ACTUALLY THE WAY NOW IS TO ENGAGE IN ARMS RESISTANCE AGAINST ISRAEL OCCUPATION FORCES AS A MODE OF LIBERATING PALESTINE.

>> I UNDERSTAND FROM YOUR WRITINGS THAT YOU THINK CALLING HAMAS A TERROR GROUP MISREPRESENTS REALITY.

>> IT IS MANIPULATIVE TO USE THAT TERM BECAUSE IT, IT THE CONTEXTUALIZES HAMAS.

IT SUGGESTS THAT THEY ARE ENGAGING AND ARMED RESISTANCE FOR VIOLENCE FOR THE SAKE OF VIOLENCE.

IT MISSES THE POINT THAT HAMAS HAS ENGAGED IN ARMED RESISTANCE AGAINST A COLONIAL FORCE.

WHEN WESTERN POLICYMAKERS VIEW HAMAS AS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION THEY ARE SUGGESTING THAT IT CAN BE DEALT WITH MILITARILY.

THEY ARE ALLOCATING THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO -- >> A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAMAS AND THE PLO IS PLO RECOGNIZED THE RIGHT OF ISRAEL TO EXIST AND HAMAS NEVER HAS HER THE WHOLE POINT OF HAMAS CHARTER, HAMAS MAKES CLEAR THE REFUSAL TO RECOGNIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND ALSO IT HAS BEEN COMPLETE WITH ANTI-SEMITIC REFERENCES BUILT ON STEREOTYPES AND HOW ARE WE TO LOOK AT THAT?

OBVIOUSLY THE WAY THAT A NUMBER OF ANALYST LOOK AT THAT IS IT IS BLOODLUST AND THAT IT IS A FANTASY THAT ISRAEL WILL BE WIPED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

I WOULD JUST LIKE TO HEAR YOUR TAKE.

>> THERE ARE TWO POINTS AND BOTH ARE IMPORTANT.

THE FIRST IN TERMS OF THE PLO RECOGNITION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

BEFORE THE PLO RECOGNIZES THE STATE OF ISRAEL IT TO ENGAGED IN ARMED RESISTANCE AND IT TOO WAS DEEMED TO BE A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION BY THE U.S. AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

TO DENOUNCE THE RESISTANCE AND THE STATE OF ISRAEL IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH THE STATE OF PALESTINE.

FAST-FORWARD THREE DECADES PALESTINIANS DO NOT HAVE A STATE THAT THEY HAVE MORE ENTRENCHED OCCUPATION.

THEY HAVE A REGIME THAT IS MORE FASCIST THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN IN HISTORY.

IT IS EXPANDING COLONIAL VALENT VIOLENCE AGAINST PALESTINIANS -- THE IDEA THAT THE RECOGNITION OF ISRAEL HAS PAVED THE WAY FOR PALESTINIAN RIGHTS HAS COMPLETELY UNDERMINED BY THE WAY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS REFUSED TO HOLD ISRAEL ACCOUNTABLE.

THE SECOND POINT IS HAMAS.

HAMAS SEES THE EXPERIENCE.

THEY UNDERSTAND THE RECOGNITION OF ISRAEL IS NOT GOING TO LEAD TO PALESTINIAN RIGHTS BECAUSE WE HAVE THAT HISTORY AND WE SEE THE TRACK RECORD.

THE BEST WAY TO SECURE PALESTINIAN LIBERATION IS THROUGH ARMED RESISTANCE.

AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, WHICH HAMAS HAS NOT DISMISSED, THEY HAVE TALKS ABOUT POSSIBLY NEGOTIATING BUT THAT HAS TO COME FROM A POSITION OF FORCE.

I WANT TO SAY ONE POINT ABOUT HAMAS ANTI-SEMITISM.

HAMAS IS CHARTER WAS ANTI- SEMITIC.

THEY ENGAGED AROUND TROPES AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE INCLUDING TEXT OF ZION AND DEALING WITH, AROUND THE JEWISH PEOPLE CONTROLLING THE MEDIA AND CONTROLLING WORLD POWERS.

THE MOVEMENT SINCE THE EARLY INCEPTION HAS EVOLVED QUITE SIGNIFICANTLY.

IN 2017 HE ISSUED A NEW DOCUMENT THAT IS TO REPLACE THE ORIGINAL CHARTER.

IN THAT DOCUMENT IT OPENLY DISTINGUISHES BETWEEN JEWS AND ZION NEST.

PROJECT OF LIBERATION IS AGAINST ZIONIST COLONIALISM .

>> WHAT I'M ASKING THOUGH, IS IS STILL DIVISION OF HAMAS THAT ISRAEL SHOULD BE ELIMINATED?

IF NOT, WHAT IS THEIR VISION OF WHAT SHOULD OCCUR?

>> THE WAY THAT HAMAS TALKS ABOUT ITS VISION, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY THE VISION THAT IS SHARED BY MANY PALESTINIANS.

HAMAS'S VISION IS THAT IT WOULD LIBERATE PALESTINE.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS IT WOULD CREATE ESTATE AS IT DEFINES IT THAT IS GROUNDED IN ISLAM AND HAS ISLAM AS ITS FOUNDING PRINCIPLES UNDER WHICH JEWS, CHRISTIANS AND PALESTINIANS WOULD LIVE IN EQUALITY.

THAT IS HOW THEY DEFINE THEIR PROJECT.

WHAT THAT MEANS IN PRACTICE IS.

IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT DESTRUCTION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND THE WAY THAT IS MANIPULATED WHICH IS THROWING ISRAELI JEWS INTO THE SEA, THAT IS NOT PART OF THEIR POLITICAL PROJECT .

THERE ARE MEMBERS IN HAMAS THAT BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE DOING THAT, BUT THE POLITICAL PROJECT AS THEY DEFINE IT IS THE CREATION OF THE STATE OF PALESTINE IN WHICH ALL THREE RELIGIONS CAN LIVE AND IT IS A STATE GROUNDED IN ISLAM.

>> WHY HAS IT HAMAS HAD ELECTIONS IN 17 YEARS SO THEY CAN DEMONSTRATE THEIR VISION FOR PALESTINE?

IF THEY HAD THE MEANS TO DEVELOP THIS COMPLEX SERIES OF TUNNELS UNDERNEATH THE STRIP WHICH HAS ALLOWED THEM TO MOUNT THESE ATTACKS, WHY HAVE THEY NOT BEEN ABLE TO INSTITUTE OTHER PRINCIPLES OF GOVERNANCE?

>> THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

IN THE LAST SET OF ELECTIONS THAT HAPPENED IN THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES, HAMAS WON THE ELECTIONS.

IT WAS CHOSEN BY THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN 2006 TO COME INTO A SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT.

THOSE ELECTIONS WERE DEEMED FAIR BY INTERNATIONAL OBSERVERS.

WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE NEXT ROUND OF ELECTIONS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO THINGS, FIRST OF ALL WILL THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY INCLUDING THE U.S.

EXCEPT HAMAS AS THE VICTOR?

RIGHT NOW IN 2021 THE LAST, THAT IT WILL WIN.

THE SECOND QUESTION, TO HAVE DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS IT HAS TO BE IN PALESTINE THAT MEANS INCLUDING THE WEST BANK AND THE GAZA STRIP.

RIGHT NOW, THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER IS SPEAKING, NOT ME, HE HAS OPENLY ENDORSED THE POLICY OF SEPARATING THE GAZA STRIP FROM THE WEST BANK.

ALL EFFORTS TO ENGAGE IN A UNITY GOVERNMENT OR TO ENGAGE IN DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS ARE UNDERMINED BY ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.

>> YOU HAVE A PIECE IN THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS THAT I FOUND FASCINATING.

YOU SAID THERE IS SOMETHING OF A SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT AND HAMAS.

ONE POINT THAT YOU MADE IS THE VERY ISOLATION THAT THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT HAS INSTITUTED AND MAINTAINED OVER THE GAZA STRIP ACTUALLY ALLOWED GAZA TO DEVELOP RESISTANCE MOVEMENT MORE THOROUGHLY.

COULD YOU SAY A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK IT IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.

OVER THE PAST 16 YEARS ISRAEL'S POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT AND CERTAINLY THEIR MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN CONTAIN HAMAS IN THE GAZA STRIP.

THEY BELIEVE THEY CAN TOLERATE AND EVEN ENABLE HAMAS TO OPERATE AS THE AUTHORITY IN THE HAMAS -- GAZA STRIP.

THAT WOULD ALLOW ISRAEL TO DEFLECT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF OCCUPYING FORCE.

BY PLACING HAMAS OR ALLOWING HAMAS TO CONTINUE TO EXIST AS A GOVERNING ENTITY IN THE GAZA STRIP IT WOULD, FROM THE REST THE PALESTINE.

IN SO DOING ESSENTIALLY -- 2 MILLION PALESTINIANS FROM UNDER ITS CONTROL.

TO MAINTAIN HAMAS AS A GOVERNING AUTHORITY, ISRAEL RELIES ON SOMETHING THE MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT CALLS.

WHICH MEANS THAT EVERY FEW YEARS IT WOULD CARRY OUT A MILITARY ASSAULT ON THE GAZA STRIP TO TRY TO UNDERMINE HAMAS'S MILITARY CAPABILITIES AND IN EXCHANGE IT WOULD EXPECT HAMAS TO CONTINUE TO EXIST IN GAZA, RAIN IN RESISTANCE FROM GAZA AND ACQUIESCED TO REMAINING UNDER.

DURING THAT TIME, IT IS NOT CLEAR THAT HAMAS HAS BEEN USING ITS ROLE AS A GOVERNING ENTITY AND THE GAZA STRIP TO DEVELOP AN ARSENAL AND TO SHIFT BACK THE DYNAMIC.

RATHER THAN ACCEPTING TO CONTINUE TO LIVE SILENTLY, IF THEY WERE PREPARED TO TURN THE TABLES ON ISRAEL AND REASSERT THE PALESTINIAN PROJECT.

>> ONE THING THAT WE HEAR FROM ISRAELI LEADERS AT THIS JUNCTURE IS THAT THEY HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE WAY THEY ARE PURSUING THEIR SHUTDOWN, PARTICULARLY IN THE WAKE OF THIS GRUESOME ATTACK.

ARE YOU SAYING HAMAS FEELS THE SAME THAT THEY HAVE NO CHOICE?

>> NO.

I DISAGREE WITH THAT TAKE FROM THE ISRAELI POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT.

>> DO YOU DISAGREE OF THAT TAKE FROM HAMAS?

THE CAPABILITY THEY DEMONSTRATED IN BUILDING OF THIS ARSENAL AND RESISTANCE, SOME OF THAT COULD HAVE BEEN DIRECTED TOWARD IMPROVING THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN GAZA AND THEY CHOSE NOT TO DO THAT.

>> WHAT WOULD IMPROVING THE LIVES OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA LOOK LIKE?

IF THEY INVESTED IN HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE , AND THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA ARE ENJOYING A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE WHILE ISRAEL CONTINUES TO MAINTAIN, THAT MEANS FOOD, MEDICINE, FUEL, ELECTRICITY IS STILL CONTROLLED BY ISRAEL, THE MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA ARE UNDER A 16 AND THEY HAVE NEVER LEFT THE GAZA STRIP AND THEY HAVE SUFFERED NUMEROUS WARS AND MILITARY ASSAULT.

WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS HAMAS SHOULD HAVE INVESTED IN MAKING THE LIVES OF PALESTINIANS BETTER WHILE REMAINING IN THEIR PRISON CELL.

FOR HAMAS, IF THEY ARE LOOKING TO OVERTURN THAT REALITY, TO BREAK OUT OF THE BLOCKADE THERE IS NO WAY.

THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE MOVEMENT GOT TO EASILY.

HAMAS OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST FEW YEARS, LET'S NOT TALK ABOUT 30 YEARS LET'S TALK THE LAST FEW YEARS, HAMAS HAS ENGAGED IN VARIOUS TACTICS.

THEY HAVE OFFERED TO ENGAGE IN POPULAR STRUGGLE.

THAT MEANS PALESTINIANS IN GAZA MOBILIZED THROUGH CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE AND POPULAR MARCHES IN 2018 THAT WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST CIVIL SOCIETY PEACEFUL PROTESTS LED BY THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, ACTUALLY AN PALESTINIAN HISTORY, IT LASTED FOR MONTHS.

ISRAEL RESPONDED WITH SNIPER FIRES.

THEY KILLED OVER 200 PALESTINIANS, CIVILIANS INCLUDING MEDICS AND JOURNALIST AND IT RESULTED IN THE AMPUTATION OF MORE THAN 36,000 LIMBS IN THE GAZA STRIP.

POPULAR RESISTANCE DID NOT WORK.

HAMAS HAS OFFERED.

AT VARIOUS POINTS IN ITS HISTORY THOSE WERE DISMISSED AS TERRORIST.

THE MOVEMENT HAS ENGAGED IN OTHER OPTIONS BUT ISRAEL MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY ARE INTERESTED IN DEALING NOT ONLY WITH HAMAS BUT WITH PALESTINIANS IS THROUGH FORCE.

THROUGH MILITARY REPRISALS NOT THROUGH POLITICAL MEANS.

>> SUICIDE BOMBER SPIRIT THAT HAS BEEN A CONTINUOUS TACTIC OF HAMAS.

>> HE WAS SIDE BOMBERS WERE CONTENTIOUS FOR HAMAS.

BY THE WAY HAMAS WAS NOT THE ONLY PARTY ENGAGED IN SUICIDE BOMBINGS, SO IS, WHICH IS NOW UNDER.

THOSE ARE CONTENTIOUS PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY WERE TARGETING CIVILIANS.

OBVIOUSLY THEY WERE WAR CRIMES.

THE MOVEMENT, AS DID THE PALESTINIANS MORE BROADLY IN THE HISTORY OF THEIR STRUGGLE ENGAGED WITH ARMED RESISTANCE IN A MANNER, THEY TALK ABOUT THE MORAL IMPLICATIONS AND THEY TALK ABOUT THE STRATEGIC IMPLICATIONS.

IT WAS NEVER A STRAIGHTFORWARD QUESTION.

THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER HAS BEEN THAT IN THE PAST ISRAEL HAS RESPONDED MOSTLY TO FORCE AND ACTIVELY MILITARIZE THE PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT.

WHEN WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE SUICIDE BOMBINGS, IT BEGAN AS A POPULAR MOBILIZATION BY THE PALESTINIANS.

ISRAEL MILITARIZE THAT FROM THE EARLIEST DAYS BY SHOOTING ON CIVILIANS.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN?

IF YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE SAYING WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN?

>> THE ONLY WAY FOR THIS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE TO END AND FOR SECURITY TO BE ENJOYED BY ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS IS FOR THE DEMANDS OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, WHICH ARE RECOGNIZED IN INTERNATIONAL LAW , ARE SECURED THE DEMANDS ARE CLEAR.

THE DEMANDS TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES AND FOR PALESTINIANS TO BE ALLOWED SELF-DETERMINATION, TO HAVE A STATE OF THEIR OWN.

UNTIL WE ENGAGED WITH PALESTINIANS POLITICALLY AND NOT MILITARILY THERE WILL BE NO SECURITY FOR ISRAEL HE CHOOSE JEWS.

THAT WAS VERY CLEAR .

>> THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.