We have Rachel Ferrell and Eric Whitney joining us from IG.

And Rachel serves as a director of mental and behavioral health Design, and currently she specializes in complex high tech projects and incorporates user experience insights to deliver solutions that positively impact people and their communities.

And Eric is a senior medical planner and health care operations consultant that assists healthcare providers with their caring patient care models.

He has 30 years of experience working with healthcare organizations of all different sizes.

Yeah.

So welcome to our lecture series.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you.

You want to start?

So the stage is all yours.

You as well as Dr. Jafari.

Can you hear Rachel Ferrell?

I'm the director of mental behavioral health Design for Hpf.

So that means that I have the honor and privilege to collaborate with design professionals globally.

It is an amazing platform for us to collaborate and to cross-pollinate ideas geographically.

So leveraging experience and some hospitality experience and some sports have been used in others.

So today we're going to talk about the current time frame.

You can see that we've listed a few.

So let me talk about the values of co-morbidity.

And so people that have cooperated physical ailments with mental health and interventional psychiatry has a platform that contains things like that, but not limited to AZT and CNS.

We'll will also talk about psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

We'll talk about noninvasive ejaculation strategies and environmental solutions.

We'll talk about price stabilization as it has become a hot topic in the cold world lately.

And then we'll open up to questions and answers and let you all free from this so they can hear it.

Yeah, And I think we just went over us.

We'll go to the next slide.

So I wanted to kind of set the around for conversation about what we have seen happen in this country specifically.

So before the pandemic, we saw a lot of events across the country that really identified mental health as a this was starting as a conversation more seriously with things like school shootings, increased rates and suicidal ideation and execution.

So it really started to increase dramatically post-pandemic.

And I think that there is this perception about mental health just in general being something that is an ugly term.

There's a lot of stigma around mental health.

I think that we have this idea based in entertainment on like the movies that we've seen where there is a mental health or psychiatric environment that has kind of informed about, you know, our mental health today.

And Erik and I had the pleasure of trying to really undo that stigma that surrounds these facilities with patients and loved ones that are supporting family and friends that are enduring these illnesses.

So one of the things that we point to more recently is they're really staggering rates around pediatric mental health.

So in 2018 and 2019, suicide was actually number two in terms of the leading cause of death for peers and adolescents.

And I think that hits home with a lot of parents.

But I think that that should also really resonate with people here at university, with siblings, with nephews, nieces.

I think that we need to really understand this is not just a forensic patient that is, you know, has had a lot of interventions and is now in a state inpatient space.

This is all of us.

We are all just degrees away from having a crisis or a struggle that really impacts us deeply.

So the market analysis that you see leads us to a couple of design responses that we've implemented across the country.

Again, these are going to be kind of the four or five buckets that we speak to in terms of the design responses that we have implemented to come alongside of care givers.

So designing for comorbidities, noninvasive de-escalation strategies, interventional psych, psychedelic, assisted psychotherapy and crisis of decision will go into these in depth.

So other than saying designing for comorbidities, this is something that really peaked around the pandemic as we tried to figure out how to support patients that had severe ramps, although I'm using to address some of the comorbidities that we've considered, you can see here on the left, this is a diagram that kind of illustrates the variety of the care continuum and how that actually plays out per facility type.

So the designing for co-morbid comorbidities is such a huge issue and addressing the challenges for providing both due to the needs.

So today we went and observed Dr. Jafari's class and we talked a lot about the needs of psychiatric state hospital and how that was really contained around the conversation that was promoting agency, promoting safety, promoting wellness.

So those those kinds of consideration.

So when you are designing for that and the medical treatment side, then you have to it basically invites different products, different solutions, different processes that are inherently not going to provide safety in the environment.

Things like med gases, instrumentation, equipments, people that might not be trained to specifically operate and support a patient that's in a mental health crisis.

So trying to provide flexibility and I guess the care within these spaces becomes a little bit of a design challenge.

So this is one of the projects that we're working on right now in Dallas.

So you can start to see it's this environment starts to look a lot like a hospital general exam room.

But the nuances here are that where you typically have a staff.

So patient zone, family zone, it starts to kind of flip where you would want to see those spaces.

Because the drivers that we work with in a psychiatric environment become how do we prevent patients elopement, patients that are trying to leave their active care environment.

And we also want to make sure that staff members and family members are able are able to leave without getting any kind of intersection with a patient that might be responding aggressively based on discomfort or dissatisfaction within their environment.

So you can start to see how that plays out here.

Other nuances to just note are the use of the medical gases.

The head wall looks very different.

So we want to make sure that the head wall is controlled.

We want to make sure that whatever risks there might be, we are mitigating them to the degree in which is possible.

So interventional psychiatry is one of the things that Eric and I both get really passionate speaking to because it is such a crucial way to manage and maintain treatment from the inpatient side to the outpatient side and then back into society.

It's also a great platform in departments for outpatients to seek independently without ever escalating or elevating to an inpatient.

But interventional psychiatry is basically the most diagnostic and treatment platform.

If you're thinking within health care, within a psychiatric environment.

So this is we're going to hold procedures like E, C, T, and TMS.

These are containing different kind of sub modalities that might include all kinds of clean rooms, soiled rooms.

They have all kinds of different pockets of acute care spaces that kind of plug in formerly known as shock therapy and got a really bad stigma.

And the, you know, 50, 67 days for being damaging to folks.

It can be a scary treatment.

It can still be very dangerous if not done appropriately.

But they're magnetic stimulation and it literally is not what's happening in that particular slide.

But it's literally magnets that go on either side of the head and through the magnet, through basically magnetic pulses.

They abbreviate it in therapy, but they're accompanied with traditional talk therapy.

So that's why the kind of column interventional is that there is a physical intervention and then a traditional kind of talk therapy intervention as well.

The advent of ketamine as therapy, I don't know if anybody's familiar with what ketamine is, but ketamine is a you know, it was an anesthetic.

It's a horse tranquilizer.

It's used in Vietnam for more than a year.

We found it actually ketamine therapy, when properly done, actually is a great treatment for treatment resistant depression.

So if you're if you know of anybody that's depressed, you probably have heard all of the different medicines that are out there, the different medication.

And ketamine is one of again, when properly these are all things that need to be properly observed.

And so we have to create special spaces for these treatments to happen, both pre and you know, you'll see a pre and post sweet, but you also see a treatment suite where we actually they actually receive the ECT treatment and it's a mix of that we create these spaces that are treatment spaces, but also places where the counseling will happen is an interactive piece as well.

One of the things, one of the pieces that I'm I'm pretty passionate about as a professional is the advent of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

And I'll be honest, I think this is kind of like the if it's a very exciting time to be in, in this profession.

It's a very exciting time to be talking about mental health because of the treatments that were labeled as dangerous treatments in the sixties and seventies and some of these medicines that were put on the schedule one list for being, you know, terrible medicines or, you know, hallucinogenic medicines, they actually have therapeutic benefits in those.

Therapeutic benefits were being studied in the forties and fifties, and our government kind of put the kibosh on it in the seventies.

And so for 30 years they've not they've gone unnoticed.

I had the pleasure of working with Dr. Ben Sessler, folks at MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Sciences, and then unfortunately, Dr. Griffiths is the gentleman who actually introduced me to these types of therapies.

He recently passed away from cancer, one of the most terrible things that a person could have.

But what a gentle man.

These are pioneers that we're going to be talking about in 50 years, and our responsibility as architects is to create spaces where these therapies can happen safely.

And so as you can imagine, when you're underneath these these, you know, these drugs, you're you're in a psychedelic experience and they're not done blindly.

They're done with a they'll be done with a therapist there.

And what it does is if you think of your brain from like kind of birth to 25, your brain is fairly neuro plastic.

Well, you know, it's a better ability to learn new things, learn how to cope in society, those types of things.

And you had about 25.

Your brain becomes more like concrete.

These are an architectural term.

What psychedelic medicines have proven in those post 25 year old folks figuring out that being a military member makes you an automatic disabled person when you come back.

The VA has really adopted the philosophy that what people see over sees and what they experience when they come back.

It literally makes them a disabled folks and a person.

And so what's really nice about the way the way VA is treating and the way VA spaces get designed is right alongside of a primary care physician that's going to look at you from a physical perspective.

They place a mental health professional right alongside of them.

And that care model is such that that intervention, that that that therapy is coordinated between the two, the two places.

And Dr. Griffiths was instrumental in getting the VA to consider using research therapies of MDMA or what was known as ecstasy for the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder and alcohol and substance abuse disorder, not just alcohol use disorder.

So there's the reason why I'm telling you all of this is there's a lot of things that are going to be happening in the care environments for this type of therapy are literally evolving as we speak.

I mean, they're the the codes are being written for things like this.

And so, you know, the the whole idea that you can go in and get a treatment and within two or three treatments be cured of PTSD instead of being on a medicine for 30 or 40 your whole life.

It's just incredible what's going to be happening.

And we as designers are going to have a really great, great kind of side analysis or side perspective of being able to design the spaces for this to safely occur.

It's not going to be something where you're going to go to CVS and get MDMA all of a sudden, don't think that that's going to be happening.

It's not.

And and doctor and Doctor Griffiths was pretty insistent on that.

But the way that this type of therapy is done is it's it's not done just pill based.

It's literally in therapeutic spaces in, you know, the whole different venues where it's not just the mental hospital experience for, for mental health.

It's it's literally the community of spaces that will change cost sometimes tens of thousands of dollars to do where these particular therapies are done spaces.

There are literally more like hospitality oriented spaces, spas like spaces.

These are the types of things that you're going to start to see in health care environments, and they're going to become more prolific as we move forward.

So one facet of what really makes the psychedelic space is that Eric was speaking to like highly effective is understanding how those therapies impact our senses.

So when you are under growing any of those therapies, you have a very heightened reaction and a very active reaction to sound, to light, to touch the smell to all of your senses are on red alert.

That is the kind of state that a lot of other mental health patients endure every day.

So this could impact neurodiverse patients differently than it impacts patients with psychosis.

But I think that a lot of our studies for the last five years have really focused on sensory design and senses.

Just to understand the passive and active responses in order to help the environment act as an extension into a support for those patients and care teams.

So you can see on the left, this is an installation that we did at South by Southwest in Austin, Texas to gain greater feedback on a sensory lab that the research team was designing.

This was a really interesting installation that gave us a lot of great feedback on the right.

We're doing a lot of studies into an adolescent population and an adult solution for things specifically, we we talked about this in your class earlier, but specifically on how to slowly integrate patients based on what triggers them most so that their response is normative.

So there are patients that have very active responses that do not allow them to engage in everyday life easily.

So if we can control the environment in such a way that we can just slowly over time, basically expose them to things like light or sound, when they have extreme reactions to those senses, then we can basically rehabilitate them.

So noninvasive de-escalation has been a really exciting thing to explore not only in psychiatric environments but in hospital environments and schools and pretty much everywhere.

It's a very positive distraction.

You can see a lot of kids when they're in an environment like on the top right.

And then if there is like anything creating custom scenes that are curated based on trying to again, kind of incrementally scale patients into what is a normative response, and then there's things that are kind of just for fun.

So what's interesting to me again, fans of virtual basically virtual space, so interesting to me that the apple goggles that look like, you know, that must be heavy on your head, actually, you know, they wear your neck out kind of thing.

We don't need those because we can create spaces that actually act almost like a if you're a Star Trek.

Fanning and Star Trek fans in here, you know, like Holodeck, you know, like that their technology is becoming real where we can actually control the sights, the things we see, the things we smell, the things we hear in a room to an architectural point where it will seem like we're on a beach, you know, in Costa Rica.

But we could be in Lubbock, Texas.

But to build on what Eric was speaking to earlier about, when you're in a neuro plastic state and you are trying to work through trauma, things like PTSD, when you have a visual sense that you're back in that space, you can work through and kind of tease out some of those traumas in a way where your brain is so distracted from self-protection that those pathways are restored and you can kind of move on with your life in a healthy way.

So absolutely, we are very excited about this topic.

We could probably spend the next 24 hours.

Yes.

Yes.

One of the big kind of new things that the code has been about UDL is also a really good model that has kind of informed the progress and development of this space.

So this is something that in your visit that day, they help to kind of provide some bridging into the care continuum.

They can help you to find a resource that is specific to kind of what it is that you're there for and they can identify and kind of triage you appropriately based on what it is that you're symptomatic presentation is saying at that moment.

So here is one example of how this model flushes out.

You can see that there's always going to be a really strong divide between the adult side and the pediatric side, but there's lots of opportunity to co-locate shared support spaces and amenities.

But this kind of helps to redirect behavioral health patients from the emergency department.

You'll see a lot of crisis stabilization units that are very close to or directly connected to psychiatric hospitals.

So that if someone is in acute need of serious help, long term, that patient can be admitted.

They can go through the intake process and move into an inpatient bed as quickly as is available.

Will also at these you start, you know, you guys understand the difference between going to an emergency room and then going to like an urgent care center.

And so, you know, the temptation or what's happened historically, we back, you know, emergency departments back up in in America, we have a law that's called in town and I don't remember.

It's EMT a la I don't remember what all the acronym stands for.

But basically it says that if I show up at an emergency department, whether I can pay or not, you have to see me.

And so you can't turn away a patient.

It's not as simple as believing what you guys are thinking about opening.

He's overburdened or we just turn patients away.

You can't do that.

And so these types of units, when you're coupled with an emergency department, you can appropriately direct them away from the emergency department to this area so that those folks that actually are severely injured and required emergency attention can go there.

You know, just along side of that, too, you have urgent care centers for things like I've got a sore throat, I've got the sniffles, those types of things.

People show up to those places as well.

In crisis and mental health crisis.

I don't think that anybody in this room knows anybody that hasn't been through a mental health crisis or is experienced one themselves.

So we all go through and there are times where, you know, people don't know where to go, you know, where do you want to go?

And I'm like, just unbelievably overburdened.

I don't go to NPR.

I don't go to an urgent care center or where do I go?

And so it's educating the public about these types of spaces as an entry point to get mental health care in our country.

And it's one it's one.

It's it's something that we shouldn't have to lead as architects.

But because of the location work here happens, we as architects are kind of creating these spaces alongside caregivers to say, Well, this CSU is actually alongside an ad.

What does a CSU look like when it's right alongside of an urgent care center?

Or is this space part of a community center that I just go to because I go to art therapy people?

And so you think of health care as I'm severely in crisis.

And I in you step them down into normal, into into reintegration, into life.

Those are the types of spaces that Rachel and I are talking about, whether they're acute, you know, the most severe to where they're just the common place where you can go to get help when you're not feeling your best.

What else do you have to add to that?

Because our next question is questions and answers.

I think if you go back to the last.

Sure, yeah, we hear about school shootings, we hear about people that go into Walmart and shoot up places.

When you don't have access to good mental health care, you don't have to be schizophrenic to seek out mental health care.

That stigma that's gone, it when you're in a crisis, if you go unchecked, you either go to the places that Rachel was talking about or you result into those types of violence.

And these it's incredibly.

Rachel it's incredibly hard to change health care codes if the providers are saying we need these types of spaces in our areas and we need to be able to bill insurance, by the way, and that's because these therapies cost money.

It costs money to go to the E.R.

to not be treated well for you know, we have questions and answers and we'd love to just open it up for a discussion.

And I don't know if this microphone is something that we can share with everybody.

Dr. Zafar, does that is that guys, is that something possible?

So if anybody has any questions and also comments from outside, great.

Now, so now 13 is my lucky number, by the way.

I mean, literally it is.

I think that's a great thing.

I mean, my grandfather up in happens looking on me and smiling down on us.

So anybody have any questions here in the room?

absolutely.

Pop quiz.

I've never my question was, I'm sorry.

I hear the echo now.

Don't just ignore it.

Just like be fascinated by things that are interactive.

And yeah, I guess kind of my question, I think, but understanding the scale is usually where we start first.

So understanding like the furniture needs is going to be different.

Understanding that children are typically not going to walk into these spaces alone.

They'll probably have their parents or a group of people with them.

So understanding how to really create kind of clustered furniture go easy to clean.

People get very snarky in crisis stabilization units and you have access to food.

And so a lot of the recliners that we put into the space to make people very comfortable also just collect a lot of crumbs.

So understanding that children are going to want different kinds of snacks and again, just like the heights and scales are different and then what we put into the space is for positive distraction is very different.

So where adults might want access to arts or to books, we typically provide that kind of distraction.

We've had a lot of feedback from clinicians on not putting televisions in the space because who gets control over who says what is on the TV?

And then there's a lot of imagery that people can put on the screen, like the news that could be really triggering if there's like a group of people that show up at the crisis stabilization unit based on an event that happened and they're seeing the events kind of unravel.

And that's really counter productive.

So I think that kids love to have like access to toys or those bubble walls or anything that they can touch and play with is usually a good go to for us.

But, you know, I was going I was just going to add to that, you know, the the ADHD Asperger syndrome, these are all things that are being kind of discovered.

We're literally just learning about adult autism.

I have autism.

Didn't find out until 40 years ago that 48 years old.

And so I lived 48 years on this world not being able to communicate and autism and neurodiversity are usually communication disorders and not mental health disorders.

So it's a way it's a just a different way that we communicate.

But there are similarities because all of the sensory issues that Rachel was talking about are related to the neuro diverse world as well.

And so we could talk, we could do another presentation on neurodiversity and what we as designers do for new diverse patient groups or for people we want as as architects, we manipulate the senses.

We create spaces that create all.

What does all mean?

All means something different from a neurotypical person to somebody that's neuro diverse, which may go into a place that's just all inspiring and just be totally uncomfortable because of the scale of such a huge space or the echoes that you hear in a beautiful cathedral or in Europe.

We care what was going with that comment, but it's a related topic that we as architects need to be mindful of as we're talking about designing these types of spaces, because that crisis stabilization unit is typically where you find out for the first time that you are neuro diverse and there's no humiliation.

And I'm proof that you can carry a job for 48 years and or for a long time and not know that you're neurotypical or neurodiverse.

So any other questions in the room?

Yeah, you're coming from the crisis stabilization units, like how do you determine like what colors like colors like furniture would work for that too?

Like that typical type of space because it's like what?

I think it's like a multi observation area.

So I feel like it's a like a treatment area for like acute patients.

So it's like, how do you deal with that?

It's like people come in for different symptoms and it doesn't like overwhelm other people's like based on perception.

Yeah, I love this question a lot.

I get into color psychology pretty much every day in conversation, so choosing things like furniture, art, any kind of textile that you're introducing into the space, even if it's just a really subtle floor pattern, becomes a really critical focus.

So I would say that within crisis stabilization, there's kind of like the hierarchy of options.

We consider things like color.

So we know that we're not going to be able to choose something that every single patient, caregiver or family member is going to love.

But we can be really intentional.

And knowing that there are certain colors that are going to have a general impact and effect on everyone.

So color psychology, what do you think of if I show you something that's like bright red, is it going to have like an effect on you in a certain way?

What kind of effect does it have on you?

Feel like you make me anxious?

Anxious?

Yeah, I would say that that's about what 80% of respondents would probably say.

So choosing colors that are not going to end like immediately, like trigger someone choosing colors that are like food warmer.

So this morning we talked a lot about biophilia, natural kind of colors, textures, Textiles are typically where we start.

We try not to bring anything into this space.

This is not necessarily directly connected to furniture, but like with imagery that is going to resemble something that could be misinterpreted by somebody who's in a crisis.

So we are really careful with any kind of photo or drawing or anything that looks like a person that's like hurting or a person that.

So things like that we just try to like, really evaluate to make sure there's nothing.

And that could be misinterpreted by anyone.

We talked to a lot about, like how skin tone was one that we typically try to stay away from in any kind of artwork, because that's immediately where your brain kind of goes.

So those kinds of considerations find their way into like furniture, flooring, art, any kind of objects that you're bringing into space.

So in describing the spaces, experiential spaces, this is like, how do we put in on the interior development side, the architectural space itself?

Can you describe for us your design process that is in that fashion?

So students will want to develop such a state well before the launch of Instagram.

I don't think anyone's ever asked me that question.

That's a great question.

That's an awesome question.

I would say your first question in terms of like I'm interpreting it this way.

So tell me if this isn't hitting the mark, but we evaluate kind of the blocking and stacking.

We put a large emphasis on the interior of the numbers have a different emphasis, and then the spaces where there's a ton of patience, a lot of observation, different emphasis, and then there's spaces in the facility that are really more back of house that we don't have the same kind of drivers and needs around and then the same kinds of considerations happen outside.

So there we didn't really talk about it in this presentation as much, but the ability to access quality exterior spaces has a massive impact on patients, length of stay satisfaction, clinical results.

So a large part of what we do at each case is try our best to give patients direct or easy access to the exterior.

So it might not always be like you get to leave your room and walk directly outside.

This is not like motel style hospital architecture.

We have joked about that internally a lot, but we have not done it.

But we try to give them the easiest access with direct observation so that the interventions that we put into the space for safety and security don't have to be as aggressive.

So they're more noninvasive measures like cameras or putting a nurse station at the point in which a patient can go in and outside the building so that we don't have to do much more to protect them.

So there is a large emphasis on the interior.

We consider the risk associated with each of those kind of four levels of risk.

we think about the equipment, the furniture, the height of ceilings, the materiality of things like walls and floor, so that we're really, really careful with what we place into the facility so that we can trust the patient and give them as much agency as possible to rehabilitate our last one thing.

I've been at each case for about six weeks before I joined Rachel's team.

I had my own company and I work more on the owner side as more health care operations and strategy.

That's my specialty.

So when you're asking about color, that's why I joined the company is because I'm not that type of architect.

I'm the kind of architect that looks at a building and says this can function optimally and it's not stressful on staff members.

So when I bring to the table, when I start to look at a health care space is uniquely through the lens of a nurse, a doctor, a staff member who is there, you think about we even made a comment.

There was a comment made in the studio presentation this morning about the person, the the people that are in a mental facility the longest are the inpatients.

It's not that they're not the truth.

The people that are in the mental hospital the longest, the staff people, the people that work there and we often as architects overlook that.

We cut it when budgets get to be pretty tough, the first thing we used to major cut was the staff lounges.

There are no areas for respite.

I can't in in most places I can't tell you how many times that I have sat in a nurse's car with them while they're coming down from just watching a traumatic event happen in the health care space, whether it be in EDI, whether it be surgery, whether somebody just passed away.

We literally looking for places to go within spaces.

What why I joined each is because of the team that Rachel's put together and there's about 20 of us and it's mental and behavioral health.

What we've talked about are hospital settings here.

What how do we reshape education spaces, schools?

How do we reshape sports venues?

How do we reshape hospitality spaces?

That's the type of questions that we tackle and that we champion as the mental and behavioral health team at HHS.

So when we're a quote unquote building type, our building types could be not health care related at all.

In fact, I would love to redesign an elementary school using these types of of interventions.

So when you ask about form in space, it's kind of related to the actual use case.

But what I really appreciate from Rachel's perspective and in hiring me is saying, you know what, the operations person has to have a voice and design.

And I just happened to be back on the dark side.

Yeah.

But I think when I think why I'm saying this is for any aspiring architect, there's more to mental and behavioral health.

There's more to architecture than just being an architect.

You can use your design degree in so many cool different ways.

And I've used it for the better part of like 25 years talking about operations, like how a nurse, you know, does her work at the work at nurse stations and literally getting into the analysis of the steps that are taken by a nurse every day.

The fact that, you know, the average nurses like this tall and we still design storage that way the heck up here and they're having to get on two stools to get to it.

We still commit those errors.

We have an intervention and we also have an advisory group that is dedicated at class to tackle these types of questions in every different type of building type.

And so that's what makes each case unique.

I think that was part of your question to you is what makes excuse me, I think the second question was very interesting.

I just want to start to address if I feel like there would be a whole coffee conversation after this.

Yes.

To reduce the number of patients that are becoming mental health patients, is that the question?

Or within like an architectural firm, you have the 96% burnout last year.

Yeah.

we that's where you went with that question percent.

Whereas once they say that they and their work has affected their lifestyle.

Yeah, can I answer that question because we literally just talked about it this morning because I think it really starts here.

We had a whole conversation about how we have to protect our energy now in architecture school and whatever university college you're in, but your practices and habits that you're establishing now will follow you.

So learning healthy habits here will come with you and the business that will come with you and your family.

They will follow you later in life.

But I think that that's a really hard lesson to learn.

We talked about it kind of at length this morning, but I think also understanding within the actual environment for like the hospital itself.

So if we're designing a psychiatric space, we want to make sure that we're not trying to work from a space where we're moving patients as quickly as possible through the system.

We want to give everything enough room so that we're not having repeat patients that are coming back to the facility over and over again.

And then just go ahead.

I know that you're excited about this.

You know, can find out.

We need to have a big discussion.

Okay.

That's another.

shoot.

Okay.

We just yeah, I will answer your I will continue to answer your question afterwards.

So and if possible, I will share your information.

Absolutely.

So that they can stay in touch.

Well, thank you again, Rachel and Eric for.