(upbeat music) - Welcome to Inspire.

Today's show may be creepy for some, but quite interesting for many of you, as we are talking about the increase in women like you watching, reading, and listening to true crime stories, coming up on Inspire.

(bright music) - [Announcer] Inspire is sponsored by Kansas Furniture Mart, using furniture to inspire conversation, and by the Blanche Bryden Foundation.

- [Announcer 2] The Friends of KTWU, honored to support programs and services that enrich the lives of our viewers.

- [Announcer 3] And the Raymond C. and Marguerite Gibson Foundation.

(upbeat music) - Hello, and welcome to Inspire.

I always enjoy being here with my two wonderful partners in crime, Betty Lou Pardue and Danielle Norwood.

I'm very excited for today's show, as we're talking about a topic that is of great interest to me - true crime.

- And I will confess I love the partners in crime deal.

But, you know, I have been watching these types of shows for a long time, and I don't know what has drawn me, but I keep being drawn in.

And so we're hoping that you're gonna be drawn in to today's Inspire.

- Thank you for clearing that up, Betty Lou.

(Danielle laughing) However, we're here to discuss the interesting statistics that shows the increase in women filling their free time with reading books, listening to podcasts, and binge watching true crime series.

Joining us to talk about women's interests in true crime are Rachel McCarthy James, author of the true crime novel "The Man from the Train," and joining us via Zoom, Dr. Ian Punnet, Kansas State University Professor of Practice and author of "Toward a Theory of True Crime."

Thank you both for joining us.

- Thank you so much for having me.

- [Betty Lou] Yeah, this is wonderful.

- I am so excited to talk about this because as someone who has online dated - and apparently there's a connection between Tinder and true crime - I wanna get both of your opinions on just exactly why women are so fascinated by it.

So I'm gonna start with you, Rachel, and then I'm gonna go to you, Dr. Ian.

- So I think a big element in it is it's, yeah, about feeling safe and about wanting to foresee where we're going with this and what could the dangers could be out there.

But I think it's also, you know, there's a lot of trends, and when there's something good being produced and other people are inspired to make more art and media that's catered to that interest.

So I really think it's about the availability of what's out there and the fact that it's so much, there's greater production values in it these days, too.

You know, it used to be kind of not really a mainstream thing, but I think in the last 10, 15 years, people have been taking it a lot more seriously.

So we're seeing people taking it more seriously.

We're seeing people who are, you know, just producing better things.

And I think that that really adds to the, adds to the stream of content that people are consuming.

So, yeah.

- And there's a whole channel devoted to it now.

- Yes.

- Which is interesting to me.

- Oh, yeah.

- Ian, what's your thought?

- Well, can I start by saying on a definitional basis, you can't say true crime novel.

- [Danielle] Okay.

- If it's a novel, it's fiction.

- Exactly.

- If it's fiction, it's not true crime.

- Exactly.

Nonfiction.

- The true crime that we experience today, in many ways, is no different than the true crime that was being produced 50 years ago, except now with just more platforms.

It, true crime has been dominated by women consumers.

At some point, there was this shift in the 1960s and into the 1970s.

Up until that point, nobody was really tracking that.

But when a series of books came out that were focused on aspects of our culture that seemed to be more interesting to women, the true crime became the genre that it is today.

- I wanted to ask you a little bit about going back 100 years ago, the Victorian era and how popular going to the actual trials was for women.

That was a really, a social outlet and an intellectual outlet for them, especially during Lizzie Borden trial and other trials of that era.

Do you think that has anything to do with how it's coded femininely these days and in the '60s?

- Well, I'll push you back even further than that.

In pre-United States Colonial America, there was something called execution sermons.

And these execution sermons were delivered by circuit-riding preachers who came in on the day that an accused in a community was to be executed.

And they would write their story and they would tell their story for the moral purpose of restoring some sort of norm, a normative behavior to the community.

And then these circuit-riding preachers would take these sermons and they would often be sold in the next town.

The condemned would often participate in their own execution sermon because they would be standing there saying, "Kids, don't be like me.

Don't do what I did."

And women, there was a higher proportion than you would think of women being executed for things like infanticide or, you know, killing of one's own parents or a husband.

And so there's a continuum from that period through the Lizzie Borden trial, through other aspects that we now look at and we say, "Well, these narratives of these cases were then shared, sold, packaged, because people found the idea of normative behavior and 'you shouldn't do that,' and there was a moral to the story that's not unlike, you know, perhaps fairytales or folktales from the era before that."

- So it seems there's this element of cautionary tale here, right?

Especially from a historical perspective.

But when we look at that in modern times, it could be educational, in a way, teaching women, in particular, to be aware of situations.

- Right.

- But in addition to that educational element or entertainment element, from a psychological perspective, is it possible that women, in particular, are using this as almost a place to put some of their anxieties and concerns about things like this potentially happening to them?

- Absolutely.

I want to...

I think the idea of enforcing norms is really important to this, because women always feel the need to live up to norms, I think, more so than men in a lot of ways.

And so I think it's about that kind of discussion and connection and building those kind of community norms that makes it such a ripe area for discussion among women.

- What about you, Ian?

- It was sort of a feminist statement.

It said, "Women are taking a prominent position in our culture, in our society, and they are just as likely to perpetrate a crime."

And there were tons of magazines that were dedicated to women perpetrators.

The criminality of women, for some people, was like, well, of course, anytime a woman did something, it was a man that made her do it.

But that wasn't what a lot of these women were saying.

They did it because, well, it's a little bit like the, you know, I don't wanna sing, but even the "Chicago" Bob Fosse, you know, that's, "He had it coming."

- That's exactly what I was thinking about this whole time.

- "He had it coming."

There was kind of a celebration of, "This is my independence, and this person's holding me back."

And so I think that was what true crime took seriously, the perpetration of women as opposed to just them being victims.

- Wonderful.

Thank you so much, Rachel and Ian.

We're gonna take a short break to feature Lisa Sandmeyer from the Topeka Cemetery.

We'll be right back to talk more true crime.

(upbeat music) (gentle music) - I'm Lisa Sandmeyer.

I am Superintendent of Historic Topeka Cemetery.

Well, superintendent is essentially the general manager.

I'm in charge of hiring both the grounds staff and the office staff.

I help families arrange for burials.

I do a lot of research on the 35,000 souls who are in the cemetery.

Give tours.

I keep records of burials.

I manage the archives.

I write the guidebook.

Pretty much if something needs to be done, I do it.

(gentle music) A lot of folks think that this business is maudlin or tragic, but cemeteries are about remembering people.

When families come in to arrange a burial, we're talking about their loved one, and we hear the stories and we understand the importance of that person to them.

I tell my staff here that our job is to provide the best possible experience on a person's worst possible day, and that's what we strive to do.

(gentle music) It is rewarding because I'm naturally curious and I love telling stories.

I learn wonderful stories from people that are searching their genealogy.

Most recently, a woman sent an email saying, "Well, the family lore is that great-grandma was in the holding vault at Topeka Cemetery for 28 years."

So I pulled the file, and there was 28 years of correspondence where the cemetery is trying to get this woman's son to bury her.

(Lisa laughs) They finally go, "Send us $100 and we'll bury her."

There's still an outstanding bill of $1,240 for vault rent.

(Lisa laughs) (gentle music) You know, I really think that cemeteries are a place where people should be able to come and get inspiration.

I have learned about some really incredible people in Topeka's past.

Topeka's role in the Civil War is a big deal.

Cyrus Holliday, founding the Santa Fe Railway, which was the city's lifeblood.

But yes, I think just in enjoying the grounds and seeing the statuary and the monuments and just the beautiful green space, there's a lot to inspire people out here.

(gentle music) (upbeat music) - Welcome back.

We're visiting with authors Rachel McCarthy James and Dr. Ian Punnet about their true crime features.

Rachel and Ian, we were talking about the importance of women in this, of course, and why women are so fascinated with true crime.

I'm fascinated with your books.

Rachel, if we could start with you.

- [Rachel] Absolutely.

- I love that - "The Man on the Train."

- Of course.

Yes.

- And the fact that you did so much research to find out about the murders - [Rachel] Yes.

- that were in Kansas and Iowa.

And how do you go about researching, back to the beginning, their first crime?

- It was really a labor of going through all of the data.

So what I did was, once I realized that we had a lot of murders, families murdered late at night in rural communities near the train with these specific ritualistic details, with an axe or another blunt object to the head.

Once I started looking for that, I realized that there were a ton of these events between 1898 and 1914, which was when he was active, so our theory goes.

So it was really about going through those details and making sure that I sifted through them correctly.

Story deserved to be told and not forgotten in this horrible series of events.

- Well, and I love the fact that you, you want to pay homage to the victims, as well.

- Absolutely.

Absolutely.

- I know we'll get back to that.

Ian, will you tell a little bit about your process?

- Well, I wanna comment on it, because I really applaud that kind of research and, in fact, Ann Rule, who is generally regarded as the queen of true crime, Ann Rule, having written like 45 number one bestsellers and helped create the whole book genre of true crime.

She believed that it's not real true crime if it's not victim-centric.

- Absolutely.

- That, and this is where I separate out from...

I mean, there's a lot of bad "true crime" out there.

- Right.

- Just like there's a lot of bad jazz.

You know?

But the bad jazz doesn't have to define the fact that the genre's not any good.

It's just these are poorly trained or not actually very good musicians trying to do jazz.

And that's what a lot of these platforms do.

They play fast and loose with the title True Crime.

They like that category.

But that's the kind of research that I think Ann Rule would appreciate.

I certainly do.

- Thank you.

That's so kind of you to say.

- And that's victim-centric.

You're speaking for the victims.

- [Rachel] Yeah.

- That's still the best kinds of true crime out there.

If you're not helping the victims, if you're not letting them speak from the grave, then it's just what I call crime porn.

It's just people who are just writing about gory stuff.

- And it's so important to remember the survivors and to remember, and to, you know, not focus on the gory details so that their lives get lost in the details.

And there are a lot of gory details, because the gory details are what define this one crime from the other here.

But really, one of the advantages of this book is that we don't know that much about the man that we believe did this.

We have a few biographical details, we've got some physical descriptions, but we've got a greater wealth of details about each of the victims.

Like, there's this man, Lewis Cassoway, who was in Houston Heights in 1910, 1911, a man who had a multiracial family in Houston in 1910.

That's very difficult.

His birthday party was in the paper and things like that.

His social events were in the paper.

When he was promoted to head janitor at a school, that was on the front page of the paper, actually.

So that's what I really love about it is being able to go through and find these.

But you also, especially, I think, with more modern true crime, you have to really think about what the impact is on the people who are still living.

And I think that's what gets lost with what you were talking about with when you're trying to chase a trend and you're trying to churn out content instead of trying to make something that's responsible and reflects history and the times that it was in which it happened.

I think that gets lost.

And I think that's what you have to be careful about, which is why my next book, "Whack Job," which is also about axe murder, has taken me eight years to write.

- Wow.

And where is the passion that you have for true crime coming from?

How did both of you get involved in just really focusing on this particular genre?

And I'm gonna start with you, Rachel.

- Sure.

So actually it was my dad, Bill James, the baseball author, who has always been obsessed with really two things, baseball and crime.

So after he'd accomplished a lot in baseball, he turned to crime.

I'd always been interested in true crime, but I've never really been a fanatic, like some people.

There are some great classics, "In Cold Blood," Ann Rule, "Helter Skelter," that I'd really read and enjoyed.

But I came at it from a bit of an outsider perspective, which I think was valuable.

But now, you know, I'm caught up.

I've got a lot of great friends who are great true crime writers.

My friend Elon Green, Sarah Weinman just wrote "Last Call" and "Scoundrel," which are really upholding those standards and trying to shed a light on things that were, how the society has changed and how we can best reflect on those, what led to the circumstances of these crimes.

- And Ian, what about you?

- Well, as you know, I'm a fan of your dad's.

- Oh, I didn't know that.

That's so cool.

- You know, no, and talked to him about this once.

There's so much to be said for that understanding of the victims' families.

And you don't, one of the things I like about true crime is that it's, and what proper journalism should just be reporting on those facts, those news stories, which are most relevant for that day.

True crime has a very long tail, right?

So we can go back anywhere in history, we can look for these things.

And it is about the ogres.

- Yeah.

- That are out there.

And the ogres that are on the road right now.

There's an estimate that we might have literally thousands of serial killers who are working the highways, - My goodness.

- the truck stops.

I mean, it sounds crazy, but they go, they may be the ones most accountable for all of these unidentified or missing people or bodies that go unidentified.

- Preying on vulnerable people, yeah.

- Exactly.

At a time when they're disassociated from their home.

I was drawn to it because my grandmother's first cousin, a woman named Verna Garr, was murdered by the then-Lieutenant Governor of Kentucky.

- Whoa.

- What?!

- Yep.

And she was murdered in a way which was pretty obvious to most people that he had done it.

But, and it was the subject of many true crime magazines and covers.

And I grew up with those.

I grew up reading her story through that lens.

So that when I was getting my PhD, Arizona State University asked me to find the line between what is good crime reporting, good crime journalism, and true crime.

So that's how I came up with a theory of true crime, trying to understand what makes true crime.

And by the way, "In Cold Blood" is no longer considered true crime.

- Really?

- It's based on a true story.

- Truman Capote's whole 95% recall thing turned out to not be so accurate.

It's a great story, but... - And the fact is, yeah, he just made up too many details, made up too much dialogue.

It's...

But based on a true story.

But it's not true crime.

- This has been such a fascinating discussion.

We need way more time than we have today to talk about it.

But Rachel McCarthy and Dr. Ian Punnet, thank you both for being on the show.

- Thanks for having us.

- And talking true crime with us today.

And now I'm inspired to go, like, get some books and check this out.

Especially the whole Tinder thing.

You know?

Maybe I didn't look good enough in terms of the people I was kicking it with.

But anyhow, we're going to take another short break, and Amber and Betty Lou and I'll be back to discuss our thoughts about women and true crime.

(upbeat music) (gentle music) - The Friends of Historic Topeka Cemetery started the Ghost Tours, I wanna say 2016.

And originally, we were doing one tour guide with a bunch of people following.

And that limited the numbers we could have.

And people had to make reservations.

Well, 2020 and Covid rolls around, and we come up with this idea that we would have stationary storytellers and people would move in small group between them.

We moved 150 people through here in one night.

And this was after doing tours with 20 people.

And it was a huge hit.

And so that's how we do it now.

People can show up.

We start the tours at 6:30.

They run until 9:00 PM.

The tours this year are Friday the 13th - we don't know what might happen that night - and Saturday, October 14th.

(gentle music) One of the missions of the Friends of Historic Topeka Cemetery is to educate the populace.

The Friends want to give people a reason to come out here.

They sponsor all of the tours that we have.

The Ghost Tours, specifically, were designed to be a fundraiser.

(gentle music) This is a site where this year's Ghost Tours will begin and end.

Our big finale is Arthur Capper.

In February of 1926, there was a big hearing in the Senate to discuss whether fortune telling should be outlawed in the District of Columbia.

And the star witness against fortune tellers was Harry Houdini himself.

So we have some wonderful pictures of Arthur Capper and Harry Houdini together.

This is the Capper-Crawford gravesite.

Arthur Capper's father-in-law was Samuel Crawford, who was the third governor of Kansas.

It was interesting.

Arthur Capper's wife died in 1926, the same year as these hearings, and one of the mediums claimed that Arthur Capper was one of her clients.

The same medium claimed that she kept Thursdays open for lawmakers and members of the Supreme Court.

(Lisa laughs) This all came out during the hearings over telling fortunes in Washington DC.

So it's a very interesting story.

We talk a lot about spiritualism.

But this is where it starts and ends on Friday, October 13th, and Saturday, October 14th.

(gentle music) (upbeat music) - Ladies, what an interesting discussion.

I definitely fall into the category of people who like true crime.

And what I really found fascinating about our conversation today was the idea of really honoring the victims and really telling their stories.

Because I think when you have irresponsible true crime reporters, there's really this lack of integrity in terms of that honor.

- Right.

- Or trying to sensationalize something that quite frankly doesn't need to be sensationalized.

Right?

These things are horrific and terrible on their own.

- Right.

- And so to honor not only the victims, but their remaining family members and other loved ones, I think that there's something really beautiful in that.

So that perhaps the story doesn't become all about the crime itself, but becomes about the person who, like both Rachel and Ian were saying, you know, they've had this sort of stoppage to their life and what could have been before them.

They don't get that opportunity anymore, and I think that's heartbreaking.

And so it's beautiful to see people honoring those people as they were.

- And I think you're seeing that even today in the news, the families are saying, "We don't want to hear the name of who did this."

- Yeah.

- "We want to focus on our family member who was murdered."

And to Rachel's credit, too, I love this on the end, 'cause I was thinking, "Who was 'the man on the train'?"

So she doesn't tell you 'til the end.

So you really need to watch that.

(all laughing) Which are, you know, watch and listen and learn and read, which I love.

But just the details of everything I think is so important because it helps you go back to where that original person was.

Why did he commit that first crime?

And then how did it evolve?

And in many of the stories, we do see that.

And the whole thing about journalism helping, you know, 'cause at first, nobody really reported; it was just town gossip.

But once the wires came and then all the journalism outlets could share information, I think that was incredibly healthy and helpful.

- I've always been a fan of soap operas, so this is, like, right up my alley.

And I've never really gotten into true crime.

But when he said Tinder and true crime, I'm like, "Okay, wait a second."

- Yeah.

- Because you don't know who is out there.

And the whole feeling empowered to do research, 'cause that's something we didn't get to talk about... - Right.

- Is to vet people ahead of time so you're not in a situation that could be particularly scary.

So maybe going to the true crime books can help me strategize, like, "Okay, what are some things to look for?"

And to be able to just really get everything in a row to know that, you know, "Hey, I'm not gonna be a victim.

I'm gonna be the one to know ahead of time what I'm looking at and what I'm looking for."

- I think that's a really interesting way to look at this genre.

So even if you're not a person who's interested in the genre in and of itself, I do think that idea of a cautionary tale is super important because some of us don't move through our lives being fearful.

And some of us move through our lives being very fearful.

So if you're not, you know, having these stories to say, "Maybe I do wanna take that pause and have more situational awareness," or, you know, share my location if I'm meeting somebody, or...

I think that that is something that's really valuable in these stories.

- I agree.

You know, as always, we could always go on.

I hope you have learned something very valuable from this.

We will be back with more good things.

And we wanna thank our crime authors, Rachel McCarthy and Dr. Ian Punnet, for joining us today.

And we thank Lisa Sandmeyer from the Topeka Cemetery for the wonderful Ghost Tour and the enlightening spooky discussion.

- As a reminder, you can watch this program again at watch.ktwu.org.

And if you're so inspired to learn more about our guests, find out about what's coming up on future shows, and get access to additional content, be sure to visit our website at www.ktwu.org/inspire.

- Inspiring women, inspiring research on women's interest in what some would consider to be a hair-raising topic.

Thank you so much for joining us, and we hope you feel inspired.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] Inspire is sponsored by Kansas Furniture Mart, using furniture to inspire conversation, and by the Blanche Bryden Foundation.

- [Announcer 2] The Friends of KTWU, honored to support programs and services that enrich the lives of our viewers.

- [Announcer 3] And the Raymond C. and Marguerite Gibson Foundation.