- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been provided by Stockton University.

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- This is One-On-One.

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- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone, Steve Adubato.

We're about to have a compelling, important, and very personal conversation with a longtime friend.

She's Maud Dahme, she's a Holocaust survivor, a former president of the New Jersey Board of Education, and the author of this book, "Chocolate, The Taste of Freedom: The Holocaust Memoir of a Hidden Dutch Child."

Maud, good to see you.

- Good morning.

- Maud, we've known each other for many years as a very young man at a different time in my life in the state legislature.

You were doing Holocaust education, you were talking to many of us in the legislature and others outside of government about your experience and about why the Holocaust matters.

And your book is extraordinary.

Tell folks at what age you were taken away from your parents to avoid the potential horrors of what was happening in the Holocaust.

- Well, I was six and a half, and my sister was four and a half, just the two of us.

- Where were you taken from and where were you taken to?

- I lived in a town called Amersfoort in the Netherlands, and we were taken to a farming family living in Oldebroek in the western part of the country.

- You were taken from your parents?

- Yes.

- And you talk in the book about how incredibly difficult it must have been for your parents and you didn't realize that at the time, being only six and a half, you realized that your parents realized that the only way they could potentially save you and your sister, who was four at the time, was to have you separated from them, but you also had to take on different identities, correct?

- Yes, we did.

- Talk about that.

- When we arrived on the farm that day, they hid us first in a wheat field.

But my sister started crying for her mommy so they brought us in the house.

And that evening, this couple in their 60s, never had children, but sat me down and told me they are going to tell me something that I must remember no matter who asked you, "Who are you?"

- So you had a different name, but you also had a different story that you had to memorize and repeat as to how you were even there.

- Yes, we were supposed to be this couple's nieces who had been bombed out of a city.

Of course, war had started, there was a lot of bombing and many people were homeless and everybody was kind enough to take people in.

So that was a good excuse.

- Let's get the dates here.

We're talking about July of 1942, correct?

- Yes.

- You did not reunite with your parents until 1945.

- Correct.

- How the heck, and the book tries to do this.

Describe your greatest fears, your strongest emotions during that time, those three years.

- It was very hard.

You know, I was only six and a half years old, but they told me that if I did not remember my new name or where I was from, that the soldiers, German soldiers, who were everywhere, were gonna take us away.

And I was so afraid of that.

- You saw those soldiers?

- Oh yes, they were all over.

- Did you ever have a direct confrontation with one of those Nazi soldiers?

- Yes, I did.

One day they had sent us away for the day to another friend or family, came back that evening at dusk and we had to call the couple who took us Aunt and Uncle.

And that evening, Uncle took me outside and he looked around, there were no German soldiers anywhere, and we walked into one of the barns.

And that barn was totally open at one end.

You could look into the next farm.

And we had all our wood there 'cause there was no gas or electric, so all the wood was stored there.

So he bent down and cleared away some of the wood and there was a trap door.

He opened it up and there was a young Jewish boy hiding in there.

I met him, I was introduced to him, and then we left again, trap door down.

He covered it with the wood and went in the house and they told me I had to bring him something to eat once a day.

But be very, very careful that nobody sees you.

Everything worked fine for a while until one day I had... And they had a few steps down into this hole where he was hiding.

I had just come up the steps with the pot in my hand and there were six German soldiers standing there looking at me and I didn't know what to do 'cause I was sure they were gonna shoot me right then and there and take away- - What happened?

What happened?

- I pretended I didn't see them.

I acted as if they weren't there.

Put the trap door down, covered it with the wood, picked up the pot, had to turn my back to walk out and prayed that they wouldn't shoot me and they didn't.

They let me go in the house.

- Maude, this family that took you in, as I'm reading about this, they're a Christian family.

- Yes.

- And was there a pattern of Christian non-Jewish families taking in children who were incredibly vulnerable because of what the Nazis were doing to Jews?

- Yes, and that whole area was very... They called it, like, the Bible Belt, very religious evangelists and many, many Jews were hidden right in this area where we were also.

But people took a risk too, because if we were discovered, they too would be taken away.

But people just stepped up and it didn't matter even though they knew that they risked their own lives to save us.

Children as well as adults also.

- You were responsible for... And you talked about the last conversation... By the way, Maud we're taping this program in the fall of 2025.

If I'm not mistaken, we do not engage in fake news here, Maud will be turning 90 in January of 2026, correct?

- That's correct, yes.

- Is that a gift in and of itself?

- Yes, very much.

I value every day.

I thank God that people save me and I'm alive and have a wonderful family because of how they cared for us.

- Did you ever get a chance to tell that family how much you appreciated what they did?

- Oh yes.

(Indistinct).

It was now my new aunt and uncle.

Uncle died while we were there.

And we also had to go to another family at one point.

But after the war, every vacation my sister and I had, we went to visit aunt and also the other family.

And even today, of course, they've all passed, even today when I'm in the Netherlands every year, I meet up with all the nieces and nephews and their children.

And yes, I'm part and my assumed name was Spronk, my last name during the war.

So I am a Spronk and with all of them and we celebrate and it's just so wonderful.

And also with the second family, also the same thing.

I celebrate with them every year.

- Tell me about your sister.

Your mom told you you're responsible for your sister.

- Yes.

- Describe the best you can how those three years you believe it impacted your relationship with your sister.

- We were very close.

Of course, she didn't appreciate me sometimes because I was acting like her mother, but- - At six and a half.

- Yes.

Well, you know, this couple had never had children either, so they didn't know what to do with two little girls.

But I had to watch out for her and take care of her as much as I could.

And we've always been very, very close since then.

- Maud, let me ask you something.

I said this at the beginning that I met you many years ago in a different part of my life in the state legislature.

Why do you still work to... And by the way, a shout out to the folks at, I'll come back to this, Stockton University, one of our new higher ed partners, you worked with the Stockton University's Sarah and Sam Schoffer?

- Yeah.

- Schoffer Holocaust Resource Center to in fact produce this book.

- Yes.

- And all the proceeds go to Stockton and to the scholarships that they're providing for students to study Holocaust education.

- Yes, I just started this year.

I have copyrights as do they, but I didn't want any money.

I wanted all the proceeds of the book to go back to the Holocaust Resource Center.

- And the scholarship is in fact in Maud's name.

Let me ask you this.

Why the commitment all the way back.

I remember being in my mid-twenties when you were there and I was like, who's this person who I believe was lobbying and talking about education policy?

But then you started talking about... I was like, "She's a Holocaust survivor?"

And you started talking to folks, and then you started taking trips.

- Yes.

- To educate legislators and others about not just your experience, but about the Holocaust, why?

- Because I think it's so important, and as of today I have been going doing this trip since 1998.

And right now, it's mostly teachers, current classroom teachers.

And it's so important for people to actually be there and to smell it, to taste it, to touch.

It is so different than seeing films or reading books about it.

And it's been such a bonus for the teachers who are teaching the Holocaust, who have been able to participate.

Thanks of some financial help also from NJEA that we're able, through the Holocaust Commission, to do this.

- And also the Russell Berrie Foundation.

Last time I saw Maud was at one of the events for the Russell Berrie Foundation, very much dedicated (clears throat) in part, and not just to our "Making A Difference" series, but to Holocaust education as well.

And Maud has been recognized there as well.

Maud, lemme try this.

You did not speak... Aimee, our producer, shared this in a pre-interview she did with you.

You did not speak a word of your hidden child experience until you saw a segment on the Holocaust on "60 Minutes" 40 years later?

- 30 years later, yes.

I came to this country 1950.

This was 1981.

- What happened in that segment on "60 Minutes" that impacted you?

- They did a story on Raoul Wallenberg who saved many Hungarian Jews.

I watched it, and usually with "60 Minutes," the following week, at the end of the following week's program, they show you parts of letters that people had written in on the previous week's program.

And I was rather curious to see the reaction.

And up came a note and it basically said that that was all fabrication.

There were no concentration camps, and it was signed by someone I know.

And I was very, very upset about that.

And I went public at that point.

And "Politics Makes Strange Bedfellows" was the headline.

But I have since spoken because I thought it was so important then if there were people who believed the Holocaust never happened, it was important for me to start to speak.

- There are people right now who think that.

- I know.

Yes.

- How does that impact you?

- It impacts me very much 'cause I've lived through it and so many people have lived through it.

My parents too, so that it's so important for me to speak, especially to the students at this point.

I'm in schools, a great, great deal talking to students from fifth grade all the way through college.

- You told our producers, you don't wanna talk about politics and religion.

I get that.

I get that.

But one of the things about you that I've always thought is that your voice, your experience, your compassion and empathy matters a great deal.

With so many people denying the Holocaust and so many people seeming to be insensitive and unempathetic toward other people's suffering in these incredibly challenging times.

I don't see this as political or religious.

I see it as humanitarian, a humanitarian crisis.

What concerns do you have?

Big picture, not politics.

About the fact that we don't seem to empathize and care about anyone else other than our own too often.

You know where I'm going with this Maud.

- Yeah.

It troubles me so much to see what is happening in the world today.

Whether it's in Europe or it's in... You know, Ukraine right now, and Israel and Gaza right now, it really upsets me so much because when you ask the average person, they do not want war.

People want to live in peace and harmony.

And my message to students is about how to respect and care for each other by using my story as an example, how people helped.

And I hope and pray, but I just hope by reaching our young people, that maybe someday there will be peace on earth and that we would respect each other.

And it really hurts me so much to see on the news every day the horrible pictures that I see.

I've been there.

And it continues.

- Maud, one more thing I'm curious about.

You never used the word hate, and there's so much hate and there's so much... Yeah, hate.

In the book, you talk about the German soldiers, you talk about the Nazis, you talk about your experience, you talk about these extraordinary people who protected you when you were six and a half and your sister was four.

Do you feel hate toward Hitler and the Nazis?

- No.

I don't have hate.

And I've never had hate even after all this as I grew older and understood it more, certainly as a 6-year-old, I didn't.

But no, I don't have hate.

We are 80 years later and the only thing that bothers me about 80 years later is that we haven't learned and continue to do this to each other during these very, very sad times.

As I said, I tried to bring a positive message of respect, and from the letters I get from students, they kept my message.

They understand and promise they would be kind to people and help people.

- Maude do this, so in 1945, you reunite with your parents.

It was a little fishing village, Elburg?

- Yes.

- First of all, how the heck does that happen?

And second, describe being reunited with your parents.

Three years, three years.

- Right.

- Three years, we were separated.

There was no contact during the war at all.

I mean, never talked to my parents or anything or saw them because they were hidden in my hometown by friends, with friends.

- Did you know if they were alive?

I'm sorry for interrupting, Maud.

- No.

- Did you know if... Did they know if you were alive?

- They didn't know.

So after the war, from the fishing village, Elburg, we went back to the farm to wait for my parents.

And when they stood there, I didn't know who they were.

And we were hiding behind Aunt.

And then she gave me a bit... - Just one second, Aunt was the Christian- - Farmer's wife, yes.

- That, I'm sorry.

- First family.

Actually, we called her Tannie 'cause my sister couldn't say Tante, which was the (indisinct).

And so we were hiding behind Tannie.

And she gave me a little shove and said, "This is your mommy and your daddy, shake their hands."

Which I did and ran back behind her, didn't know who they were.

- How'd you reconnect?

- They stayed with us for a little bit on the farm so we could get used to them.

And then my mother told me, I don't remember, but my mother told me that, 'cause we knew they wanted to take us back home.

And my mother said... I'm now nine and a half years old.

I said, "Okay, we will go back with you, but if we don't like you, we're coming back and living with Tannie."

- You told your mother this?

- Yes.

- Were you always that independent?

- Yes, I still am.

- No kidding.

By the way, the title of the book, "Chocolate, The Taste of Freedom."

Tell us about the title.

- Well, the title is... We were in the fishing village and it was April 19th, 1945 when the Canadians entered the village.

And I will always remember that day, as a matter of fact, I was just there on April the 19th, 80 years later, but the Canadians came in and German soldiers had already left the village.

So they knew it was safe.

They came in with their huge tanks, and they were throwing out their rations and whatever else they had because they knew the Netherlands had had the Hunger Winter of 1944-45.

We were all starving.

I was eating bugs and tulip bulbs in order to survive.

So they were throwing out.

And I was standing next to the daughter of that family and she caught something and she wanted to give it to me.

I don't want it.

I didn't know what it was.

She unwrapped it, and I still didn't know what this brown thing on her hand was.

It was chocolate.

She broke off a piece and shoved it in my mouth.

That day as we stood there near the tanks and chocolate was my first taste of freedom.

- What's it like when you have a piece of chocolate now?

- I am inundated with chocolate everywhere.

I still love chocolate.

- Does it bring you back to that moment?

- Oh yes.

And especially this past April the 19th for a whole reenactment and the Canadian ambassador to the Netherlands was present and presented me with Canadian chocolate as a gift.

- Wow.

- And as a memory of what happened 80 years earlier.

- And by the way, the book is called "Chocolate, The Taste of Freedom: The Holocaust Memoir of a Hidden Dutch Child" by Maud Dahme.

Given this unimaginable experience from six and a half to nine and a half, you and your sister separated from your parents during the war with German soldiers everywhere, with millions of people who were Jewish or connected to things that the Nazis thought were, but warranted them being murdered, incinerated in these horrific gas chambers.

I've known you long enough to know that on some level... I've got this little stone around here somewhere.

It says, I know it sounds weird, but "gratitude," I try to remind myself that I have every reason to have gratitude, but my life is pretty boring compared to yours.

You feel gratitude, I've always known that about you.

How and why?

- I feel gratitude because people cared so much.

And you know, not only for my sister and I, but so many other people.

There were many in the Netherlands who hid Jews during the war and the gratitude of them risking their lives.

And now I look back, I'm alive.

I have a big family, four children, nine grandchildren, two great-grandchildren, all because they saved us.

And my sister's family is large too.

And I'm just so thankful.

So very, very thankful what these people did for us, 'cause I'm here today because of it.

- People have good in them, right, Maud?

- Yes, they do.

And I try to bring it out even more by speaking about my story.

- Hey, Maud, thank you.

- You are welcome.

- Thank you for not just today in this interview, which I know will have an impact, but also the years, the many, many years of educating, informing, engaging, sharing your story, your experience, and helping us tap into, as Lincoln said, our "better angels."

All right.

- It's so important.

I don't get any benefits from speaking.

I do it because it's so important to share and instill in people of what humankind did for us and many, many others and what they should do.

- Thank you, Maud.

All the best.

- You're welcome.

Okay, thank you.

- Can I say happy birthday in advance of your birthday coming up in January, nine-zero, 90.

- You are the first.

Okay.

(chuckles) - Happy birthday, Maud, all the best.

- Thank you, bye.

- That's why we got into this business, to have conversations like that with people who matter.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Stockton University.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Holy Name.

The Russell Berrie Foundation.

PSE&G.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

South Jersey Industries.

Valley Bank.

And by The Adler Aphasia Center.

Promotional support provided by BestofNJ.com.

And by New Jersey Monthly.

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