Funding for.

To The contrary.

Coming up, on To The Contrary, I would say that the one thing I am most hopeful about is that our president and vice president clearly understand the problem and are working to try to help solve.

So we know that there are things we can do right away that are fast, that are cost effective.

But we need to look beyond the problem today and start to plan for tomorrow.

Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe.

Welcome to To The Contrary, a weekly discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

The US has a homelessness crisis.

The latest numbers from January of last year found 650,000 people without homes.

That's 12% higher than the previous year.

The woman who was overseeing this enormous issue for the past three years was Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Marcia Fudge.

We are getting ready to change lives, and I was glad to be a part of it.

We're going to be connecting the dots between housing supply.

The innovation of innovative solutions on display and homeownership through what we are calling our House party 2.0.

We do things like community development, block, grants, choice neighborhoods so that we can build more housing in communities of need.

And we do it on a huge basis.

Fudge recently stepped down, retiring from public life.

But before she left HUD, the former longtime member of the House of Representatives from Ohio and chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, sat down with To The Contrary.

She told us homelessness in America is an urgent issue to resolve.

It needs to be front and center.

Welcome, Secretary Fudge.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's a pleasure to be with you today, And thank you for joining us.

So tell me, 650,000 people, no homes.

How does first of all, is it a solvable crisis?

Second, how- how does that impact the economy?

When you think about homeless families and the kids can't stay in school and transportation issues are a nightmare, and all the rest of that stuff.

But I would say that, yes, it is solvable.

There's no question about it.

But the greatest nation in the world should not have people sleeping on its streets.

It is a, a tragedy, a travesty that we are where we are.

Because the real answer is housing.

It's just that very simple.

Not only is there a crisis of homelessness or unhoused people, there is a crisis of having low income and moderate, affordable homes.

As a nation, we have neglected to build affordable homes for many, many years.

Decades, literally.

And it has finally caught up with us.

So when you realize the fact that not only is it affecting people who are being pushed to the streets because they have no place to sleep, but think about young people coming out of school, or young couples who can't afford their rent or have to stay with their parents because rents have become so high because of a lack of supply, the basic economics, supply and demand, that's a lot of it.

But secondly, of course, we have not done a real good job of dealing with people who have mental or emotional issues.

It's another thing that we've not done.

We tend to not provide services that address things like, drug addiction, mental health.

We have not done a good job as a nation to take care of people who need us most.

When you think about the fact that probably 200,000 veterans sleep on our streets almost every night.

What does that say about us people who have given their lives?

So yes, I know that it can be solved.

We just need the will to do it.

And we just have to make ourselves, as a nation say it's important enough to do.

Too many of our children are born without a safe and stable place to call home.

Too many children live in neighborhoods that do not have access to healthy foods, decent schools, or clean air.

I remember Ronald Reagan signing some law or or edict when he was president that said that, localities could no longer put people in mental institutions against their will, and that, at least back then, was a big factor in homelessness, that people who otherwise might be taking care of in institutions, well or not very well is another question.

But at least they would have a bed to sleep in at night.

Does this pit the, some portion of the social justice movement against the housing movement?

In other words, on the one hand, some folks want there to be freedom to stay on the streets if that's what the person wants to do and others say no, they should get a house.

I would say that data shows very, very strongly that people do not want to sleep on the streets.

People- give you an example.

I met a gentleman in San Francisco.

I was out there with with Mayor Breed, and we were going into a place, a shelter, which was an older apartment house that the city had purchased to housed, those who had been in shelters.

The gentleman says to me, I was not on the streets because I wasn't an addict.

I was not on the streets because I was a criminal.

I make $1,000 a month in my benefits.

There is nowhere here I can live.

So it's not about people choosing necessarily to live on the street.

And I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but it doesn't happen often.

People now with young families, which is one of the fastest growing groups of people on the street, they do not want their children sleeping on the streets.

Women my age are now another fast growing group of people who are sleeping on the streets, don't want to sleep on the streets, but because we have a lack of housing, we have a lack of a real plan, and we don't tend to want to prioritize the fact that every person in this country should have a decent place to sleep.

We know that most people who really should have a home don't have one.

And so we have made it easier for people of color and people of modest incomes to purchase a home.

We said no longer will student debt prevent you from buying a house in this country.

So we've reached.

So we have changed the way we calculate student debt.

You shouldn't be punished for getting a better education.

we have said that when people come to us saying, they have no real credit history, we would say that they were not, worthy of credit because they don't have any credit.

It is now such that if you have a positive rental history for 12 months, we consider that good credit.

If you just pay your rent on time.

And then the last thing we have done is we have said that we know that people who pay their rent regularly can pay a mortgage because it is generally less than rent.

The impediment is the down payment.

So we're giving downpayment assistance.

We're giving it upfront and putting it on the back end.

And- and there are so many demands on the federal budget these days, and there's so little money available to solve all kinds of societal issues.

how much face time do you get with President Biden about increasing the housing budget?

I would say that the one thing I am most hopeful about is that our president and vice president clearly understand the problem, and are working to try to help solve it.

The president put forth a plan that was knocked down by Congress.

Admittedly, but he continues to put in his budget more and more resources for building homes.

I mean, just over the last two and a half years, we as an agency have participated in supporting the building of more than 500,000 low income and moderate income housing, but with 3 million housing units, short.

So the president continues to put resources in our budget, but it's not enough.

We need to pick it up.

We need to quicken the pace because people need the help now.

And it takes a while to build housing, so it takes a while to turn it around.

I am here today because I want to say that this community is so deserving.

Yeah, this $50 million.

So we are going to assist you with building more than 900 new homes.

Inter generational homes, homes where everybody in this community want more.

And I'm happy to be here today because we have listened and we know that your communities are made up much more than buildings and facilities, that your tribes are your people, that your culture, your heritage and your traditions.

That's why I'm pleased to share that HUD, through the Indian Housing Block Grant Competitive program, will award Kenaitze and Salamatof $7.5 million as part of a larger $128 million of awarding to 22 different tribes.

This investment, we estimate, will support at least 400 new or acquired home and rental units in tribal communities across this nation.

But I was in Savannah, Georgia, a couple of weeks ago.

They've started to build just villages of tiny homes for veterans until they can find some place for them to go.

I'm in other places where they are building shelters that are one room types of shelters.

Los Angeles is using shipping crates, carts to build housing.

So we know that there are things we can do right away that are fast, that are cost effective.

But we need to look beyond the problem today and start to plan for tomorrow.

But so you mentioned tiny homes.

You mentioned shipping crates.

Would- that can have heat And I suppose running water inserted somehow?

Or are these the kinds of answers we should be looking for instead of, don't know, trying to cut the cost of buying a new home or subsidize the cost of buying a new or used apartment or home.

There are two things that I think that we need to look at right away.

One is we cannot continue to live in our parents and grandparents houses.

We need to look at things that are more energy efficient.

That can be, built in a much shorter period of time, that are more cost effective.

And we can't do it by continuing to build single family homes.

We need to build in more density, which is also a problem in many communities because of their zoning and other issues that create problems for us.

but the other thing is, we have to understand that in order to turn this crisis around, we all have to work together to make it happen.

That means developers.

It means mayors and communities.

Pursuing a number of solutions to this crisis, including zoning reform.

But we know this innovation must be a part of the equation.

So, in fact, today I'm announcing a new partnership with Turner Housing Innovation Labs to identify challenges and opportunities for new technologies.

And what they present for housing in the future including how new tech impacts racial equity and affordability.

But to the president's credit.

Cities, states have more money today to use to address these issues than they have ever had in the past and will probably ever have again.

Between the rescue plan, the CARES act, the infrastructure bill and I could go on and on.

Resources are available.

We just need for people to say either they have a plan or let us help them develop one so that we can move forward as quickly as we can.

I just heard a report, within the last couple of days, the governor there will know that he has been bussing migrants, undocumented migrants coming into the country and landing in Texas up to the northeast, flying them up to Massachusetts, New York City.

right now, as a result of that, has 60,000 migrants sent up from Texas by the governor there, who don't have homes and keeping them, at least even temporarily, homed.

It is costing the city billions of dollars, billions of dollars.

Now, you you mentioned that that localities have more money than ever.

Do they have the money to deal with these kinds of emergencies?

And is this part of what you're trying to do?

Is is this part of it?

Does this go on your heap of papers as another problem that you need to solve?

Well, it certainly goes on my plate.

it's not a problem- it's not a problem that HUD can solve by itself.

And the government right now hasn't really all of government approach at the direction of the president and vice president, that we all need to be looking at this.

So we have actually, a commission that deals with homelessness outside of what we do.

The VA deals with homelessness in a different way, but we just all need to come together and start to try to find ways to work together.

But I would say this any unhoused person is on my plate in some way, shape or form.

Now you talk about the governor of of Texas.

I mean, certainly I don't know what we can do to stop that kind of activity.

I mean, to me, it's trafficking.

I believe it's against the law, but that's me.

That's my legal hat.

That's not my HUD hat, my HUD hat says every single person who was unhoused is on my plate.

Now we have put resources into cities like New York, Chicago, where this is happening on a high scale.

But no, nobody was prepared for this to happen, quite frankly.

I would say to you that I am pleased that the numbers are going down over the last month in particular, but we do still have to deal with basic humanity.

We have to say that we can't allow this to continue to happen and not make some progress towards working for working with it.

So there are more resources going to the coast, because you'll find 40% of all the homeless people live either in New York or California.

So we know that the coast are getting hit extremely hard.

Texas is up there, but not with those two.

The biggest problems are the coastal, states.

So we are working with those governors and those mayors in those, communities to try to find ways to assist them as best we possibly can.

What do you think is the biggest factor nowadays driving, people to becoming un unhoused?

You mentioned that 200,000 of the 650,000 or so people, who lack homes are veterans.

Is it PTSD from what they experienced in the military, or is it other factors?

It's a number of factors.

That is a small factor.

There's no question about that.

But I think the bigger factor is, as we look at the fact that over the last three years, we at HUD have assisted, through our resources, more than a million persons who have been unhoused, either through, supporting them with services or actually getting them housed a million plus.

And we still have a problem with 600,000, because the more people we get off the street, of course, another group of people goes to the streets.

But I go back to where I started.

There is no place for them to go where they can afford to live.

The answer is housing.

So we have to get people to understand that even when we can get people to a place where we know that they are stable enough to move into permanent housing, we have to have the housing.

No one should have to sleep in their car, have to couch surf.

Can you imagine every day not knowing where you will sleep or eat?

It is a very difficult thing to do in the greatest nation in the world.

We should be ashamed of what we allow to happen to our children every day.

So it is my job, and those people who work with me to ensure that everyone has a chance to live in a just community where people can find quality rental housing, no matter whether they have money in the bank or whether they have a housing voucher in their hand.

In Cameron communities, those who reenter society will finally get a real second chance to live in a place that they can call home.

And I say, as both the HUD Secretary and as someone who grew up poor growing up should not be hard.

It should not be hard.

But too many people, especially young people in this country, don't have those opportunities.

We have landlords who don't want to take vouchers.

And so we have that source of income discrimination that we deal with on a regular basis.

We have just not enough housing in particular communities or we don't have housing where there are jobs and people have no transportation.

It is all of that, and it is all of government that have to solve the problem.

Why not just try to get Congress and maybe not this Congress or this House would approve it, but why not just increased vouchers for rent or for purchasing a small home for people now it.

Don't think it's not because we didn't ask.

we though, I would say, have given out 120,000 more vouchers than has ever been distributed.

We, over the three years that we have been here, have given more vouchers that have been given in the last 20 years, because we know that that's a problem.

In the president's budget last year, we asked for 250,000 new vouchers.

No luck.

So we can only deal with what we have.

even though the president and vice president continue to fight, as you say, there are lots of things that are pulling on the Congress of the United States, and they have lots of priorities.

I just wish this one were a bigger one.

How much do you believe developers, commercial developers, are responsible for not building enough units that are smaller, that are more reasonable for people to rent and buy?

Well, you know, I can't really fault them for building something that, to their way of thinking has not been profitable.

They are in businesses.

But what we have done since we have come in is we have said to developers, we are going to give you more resources to make it affordable.

We're going to make you whole by closing some of the gaps that come with building affordable and low income housing.

So we've changed the way that we deal with low income housing tax credits.

We changed the way that we, look at financing and are giving them better packages.

We're looking at ways that we can deal with insurance in a different way as well as we are saying, more money is being put into the housing trust fund for the lowest, income persons.

But we are working with communities to assist them with loan packages, to assist them with vouchers for, whole development.

So we are working with developers every day, and they are starting to come forward because they see that we're making an effort.

We can make it profitable and we will work with them.

So you are seeing now more and more homes being built, but we've got a long way to go.

The other thing we are doing is saying to developers and others, you have to preserve what you have.

Everybody in this country wants new.

We need to preserve the housing we have in this country because there are thousands and thousands of empty structures in this country today, whether they be commercial properties, whether they be older homes.

So we have to start to find ways to preserve those as well.

Tell me about what are they?

I mean, are they old warehouses?

Are they old houses?

Are they old apartment buildings?

What what?

All of the above.

They could be old apartment buildings.

Some of them are commercial buildings.

some of them are old warehouses, as you suggest.

Some of them were office buildings that have plenty of the structure that we want.

But what we need is just a structure that is found because think about it.

You've already got an infrastructure in place.

So we don't have to necessarily worry about running pipes, doing excavating.

So it's all there.

So if it is something that we can retrofit or rehabilitate in a way that makes it comfortable for people to live.

You see it in New York and every place else, these lofts and things that people are paying the zillions of dollars for.

We could do that for people of modest means as well.

So but I'm a little confused because you say that states and localities and the federal are devoting more financial resources to this than ever before, and yet the problem still exists.

So do you, Secretary Fudge, do you see a time when the housing crisis will ever be solved?

I do believe very, very strongly that this still is the greatest nation in the world.

I think it will be solved when we decide we want to solve it.

If we put our minds and our resources towards helping communities in need, to help those who are most at need.

We can solve it.

The possibilities are endless.

We have a lot of work to do to live up to our possibilities and to our promise.

So we must work to build a just and caring community and ensure that our children of all backgrounds, in all neighborhoods can thrive, not just grow, but thrive.

As the 18th Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, I know that having access to good housing is key to having a good life.

I was a kid that grew up poor, didn't even know I was poor.

And let me tell you why I didn't know I was poor because I had a home.

I had a place where I could go and feel safe and feel encouraged and supported and unapologetic about my circumstance in life.

We lived in this big two family house.

On one side was my great grandparents, my, uncle, their six kids, and whoever came from the south.

On our side was my grandparents, my mother, my brother and I, my aunt and her kids and whoever came from the South.

That is how we grew up.

And I thought nothing was wrong with it.

I never thought about the fact that I was living in overcrowded conditions.

I never thought about anything because I felt loved and supported and safe.

Every child should feel that same way, no matter their circumstance.

So when we talk about building a country that lives up to its ideals, we must talk about building communities for everyone has an opportunity to succeed, and we must start with housing.

It is the foundation for everything that comes after.

We know that we have 3 million housing units short.

We know that public housing, most of it, is 60 or 70 years old and needs to either be replaced or needs to have significant facelifts, even just to get the plumbing and electricity, etc., where it ought to be.

But you can't do it when you know that just in New York City alone.

Public housing needs about $70 million to bring everything up to code.

But our budget is three is 3 million for capital improvement.

And we have these units all across the United States.

So when we decide that we are serious enough that it is a big enough problem, then we'll fix it.

But, Bonnie, the thing that I will say to you last is that we have become a nation that almost ignores the pain of poor people.

You drive by and encampment long enough, but you stop seeing it.

You don't see the people in it.

All you see is a tent.

So until we can make it personal, we're not going to solve it.

But I do believe strongly that we can.

And if anybody can do that, you're it, believe me.

your passion shows for this issue.

Thank you for all your good work.

Thank you for your time, Secretary Fudge, on this issue.

And that's it for this edition.

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