♪♪♪ Scott: County supervisors recently voted to adopt the All In Sacramento plan that strives to address the challenges of people experiencing homelessness.

Two long time leaders focused on the issue, Kris Martin and Erin Johansen join us today to discuss the plan and what solutions really work.

Kris, when you look at the landscape of how Sacramento has faced its homeless crisis, what comes to mind as to the things that we've done right and what have we done wrong?

Kris: I think that people in positions of power and influence have really well-meaning thoughts about how to deal with homelessness.

What I find is that it's not a one size fits all problem.

Therefore, one size fits all solution is not going to work, and that doesn't work -- from my vantage point, the Housing First approach works for a few people, but not for the whole homelessness problem.

Scott: Housing First, um, approach, uh Erin, what is that exactly?

I'm not sure what that is.

Erin: So Housing First has been in... en vogue for about 15 to 20 years.

And it's really an initiative that HUD has advanced based on research.

And it really says that we bring people into housing as they are.

Come as you are.

There is no requirements.

There are no rules for... for at the time we house you.

The idea is that it shouldn't be housing only that services and supports should be provided to a person and that they -- it is their -- They're in the driver's seat.

They decide what to accept, what to follow, and what to do.

As we as service providers are accepting them as they are, but helping them to the next step.

Kris: And what I find with that, Erin, as you know, is that once they're housed, 99% of the people don't want service people don't want services.

They're perfectly happy, they're warm, they're dry.

They can do whatever they want to do inside the confines of their roof, and so why bother to go through all the craziness of getting clean and sober or dealing with their mental health issues?

They don't have to.

Erin: And I guess I want to say we... we are not in total agreement with that it's 99% of the folks that I know.

My experience is that Housing First works for the majority of people.

But there's a huge contingent of folks, as Kris mentions, that it doesn't work for and we don't have solutions for them.

So I think that part of the problem is, is that what the government likes to do is say, this is the answer, this is the direction we're going to go.

This is the only things we're going to fund.

And then from there, we're expected to implement and then we're losing a whole bunch of people that it doesn't work for.

Scott: So, Kris, let's go back to your objection to Housing First as being like a blanket solution or a blanket approach.

What are... what are the unintended consequences from your perspective of the Housing First strategy that the policymakers did not contemplate or take seriously enough?

Kris: Well, let me just take Cottage Housing as a perfect example.

Cottage Housing started out 30 years ago with Quinn Cottages, which were 60 tiny homes long before tiny homes were ever started or ever even thought about.

And it was a clean and sober community, um, transitional housing, which means that the people could stay there for up to 18 months.

And what they did when they came in was to begin to work on the causal factors of their homelessness.

And it was... our approach was very much client centered, which means that it was... it was the residents plan for themselves.

It was what they wanted to achieve in the 18 months to two years that they were there.

And we had screaming success about it.

We can't do that now.

Be it Housing First, you know, Scott: You cant?

Kris: No, we can't, we're not allowed because we are - Erin: Well, you cant get funded You can do it, but you can't get Kris: Well, thats true.

Erin: support by the government.

Kris: In our case, we can't do it because our buildings are also owned by Mercy Housing and their... whatevers, um, don't allow us to be clean and sober.

They get Housing First money and they have tax, um, and investor consequences.

Scott: But... but finish your point.

So, um, you have this amazing track record in terms of the work that Cottage Housing is done where -- I believe the statistics is -- are that 75% of the people who went through your historic program went on to be sustainable in their new life circumstances.

And you're saying that you can't do that now.

Walk us through step by step what has happened and how the outcomes are different now.

Kris: Well, what has happened is that we can -- we have to take whoever is next in line on the continuum of care and with SHRA So whoever is -- they may or may not be appropriate for our program and for what we can do.

Scott: And SHRA is the City County Joint Powers Authority, right?

Kris: Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Housing, Sacramento Housing Authority.

And so they come into our -- we have -- we don't have a say over whether or not they can come in.

Theyre next in line.

They come in, they have a cottage they don't have to participate in anything.

They don't have to be clean and sober.

They can do whatever they want to do.

And so because we can't say this is a clean and sober facility and we want you to work on your issues, If they don't want to work on their issues, they dont have to do anything.

They can just live happily ever after in their... in their cottages and they can drink, they can do drugs, they can do whatever they want to, again, within the confines of their home.

And what that does for us is to really impact the people who are trying to be clean and sober.

So we have created another group within called Community Within at Quinn, of the people who want to be clean and sober and they're working on their issues, they're working on whatever their issues happen to be.

Scott: Incidentally, which is the majority and which is the minority?

Kris: Far and away, the minority is the community within people.

Scott: The people who want to get clean.

Kris: Really want to change their lives, who want to live sustainable, healthy, participatory lives, living in communities that where they can use the skills and the the issues that they have... have dealt with to make their own communities stronger.

Scott: Okay, Erin, I want to get you in here.

I'm scratching my head right now because it sounds like you're a supporter of this approach.

Give us a little bit of backstor So we can understand where Erin: Okay.

Scott: yourre coming from.

Erin: At Hope Cooperative, for the last -- since the nineties, we have been a Housing First organization before it was ever required of us, of the government.

We... we have always served people with serious mental illness, the most vulnerable, whoever the county referred to us or our people.

And so what we did is we attempted to get them housed and to encourage them to take part in the services that we made available.

But we were also providing intensive case management and really walking alongside every single person with small caseloads for years.

And we had great success.

It was well over 90% sustainable housing during most of those years.

I will say that it's gotten a little bit less successful since methamphetamines have become so rampant within the homeless community that has made the job a lot harder.

And, um, so, but... but I do think that there is great success to be had in an environment where you deal with the person's most... most important priority first, they're... they're living under a bush by the side of the road, and you deal with their housing needs as... as a first step.

And that is a little bit where Kris and I might depart on this.

But I also agree that there needs to be both options for those people that want them.

So Hope operates a sober living house.

We started two of them, actually We started them a few years ago and they are funded through the county Behavioral Health Department, not through HUD housing.

So that's kind of where the... the difference is, is that now there's a little bit more funding for sober living through a different kind of mechanism.

And it's short term, it's about a year that a person can stay there, up to a year, and that is where the person who really wants to change their life, who wants to be clean and sober, who wants to address addiction, can do so.

And we don't have enough of those resources available.

And... and I think what Kris is talking about is that when the government makes a housing plan and says every housing program has to be Housing First, then programs like Quinn are caught in that sort of... that sort of cycle of we can't do the thing we know works the best for our population, but because of the funding that we're getting in order to do the thing that we do, if that makes sense.

Kris: You put it much better than I do.

Scott: It... it makes perfect se I guess, Erin, the thing that I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around is I understand that the crisis facing the person right now is homelessness.

And so that that's the need that according to this methodology that you address first.

At the same time, it almost comes back to... to you know, there's an old book and I can't remember the author's like “what I learned in kindergarten, ” right?

And that if... if we're going to extend the support to someone, that it's fair to have reasonable expectations for their behavior, uh... Um, you know, as a consequence of that and it -- help us... help us understand how allowing someone to receive what is their emergent need, but requiring nothing and essentially being silent, um, in them continuing, potentially, the behavior that's not only destructive for others, but most importantly, destructive for themselves.

How that's okay.

Erin: Well, we're not silent.

I think that's the difference, is that we're not silent.

We are providing services continuously and we are encouraging and walking beside.

And I think what... what Kris talked about client centered, to really start to work with that person, to say, what is it you want out of your life and how can we help you get there?

And it's a pretty successful model.

Statistically, it's not a successful model for everyone.

So that's kind of where the problem comes in, is that, you know, if you look at 80%, I think the number today is 80% of people who enter housing in a Housing First model with intensive services will still be housed a year to two years later.

That's still a pretty big number and a pretty good number.

Statistically, it's not for everyone because there are those people who live in that... that environment who can't be successful because of the...

The... Um, the things that are around them, the people around them.

Also, one other thing that I think is important is that they're not allowed to just -- there are some rules of, you know, there are certain leases... lease agreements that have to be followed.

So what Kris said, you live inside your own home, what you do inside your own home, we can't stop.

But you can't deal drugs out in the parking lot, at the community meal.

You can't be a, um...

Uh, your behavior can't so egregious that there's violence in this and that you will lose your housing for things like that that affect the community at large.

But just like in the real world, people are allowed to drink and use drugs in their own home, in the real world as well.

So there's that, um - Scott: Well, they're not exactly allowed, or at least there are limits.

Suppose -- theoretically, still.

But I get your point.

I...

I get your point.

Kris, there... there are those who state, though, that programs like yours, like Hope Cooperative and others are really kind of in some ways a bit of a distraction because, no disrespect, because that the vast majority of people that are on the street really aren't interested in coming into either of your programs or the others that make up part of the provider community because they want the freedom to live how they live.

Kris: Absolutely correct.

Scott: And so give us the... the -- separate the fact from the fallacy on that particular assertion.

Kris: I think that what you say is absolutely true.

I think that most of the people who are a large majority of people who are living on the streets don't want to come in because they want the independence that living rough gives them and there going to be some.

Of course, there are a lot of people who... who do want a roof over their heads, but the price that they have to pay, they're not willing to pay for that.

And I disagree with Erin.

We have tried very hard to evict a number of people where violence has occurred, where I know that they're selling drugs in Quinn.

At Quinn Cottages, but I have to catch them in the act.

Well, that's not going to happen They are living in my community.

I can watch them walk past my window and wave to me because I know them and they're likable people, but I can't evict them.

So I can't even make my gated community a safe place for all the residents.

And, you know, I don't know...

I don't know the answer to that unless you've got very specific rules and regulations about who lives there.

And they sign a contract saying that they will abide by those rules.

But if I just take Joe Schmo off the street because he's homeless and give him one of the cottages at Quinn, you know, and we do walk with our people, we talk.

I talk to everybody living there and they all know who I am.

And all of our personal development coaches are there and they're working with people and they're working with people who want to work -- with whom want to be worked.

It's -- I think it's a huge dilemma.

The business of... of independence versus requirements.

And I mean, we deal with it with our children as well.

You have... you have to bear some of the the consequences of your... of your actions if you want to become a strong, sustainable, you know, a human being.

Scott: Okay.

Kris: Does that make any sense?

Scott: It makes perfect sense.

Let's... let's move to All In Sacramento.

This new plan that's just adopted by the county Board of Supervisors.

Erin, what's going to be different about this new plan that the last seven, you know, didn't accomplish?

Erin: Right.

Well, I kind of know a lot about this because I was the chair of the Continuum of Care board where this... this was born about three years Where All In Sacramento started to happen.

And I will tell you, the major difference between then and now is that no one was working together at all.

The city would get an allotment of money from the government and they would spend it in their way and the county would get their allotment of money and they would spend it in their way And then the continuum of care would try to take their piece of the money and fill in some gaps.

There was no, um, cohesion amongst what all of us were trying to do out there, and it was a mess.

Uh, as a service provider, as a community, as a person living on the street, what you encountered was a mess.

If you didn't know the right person or have the right phone number or you have the golden ticket you were not going to get housed What is different today is that these entities have agreed to work together.

It's difficult bedfellows because they all have different objectives.

Kris: And approaches.

Erin: Yeah, and approaches.

But they are really trying to work together in a... in a cohesive... cohesive manner to develop pathways for people to get from the streets to housing, those that want to and those that participate.

They're trying to do that in a way that is not so difficult to navigate.

So I think that what has happened with All In Sacramento has been tremendous because it has gotten all the right people to the table to have those hard conversations and to try to come up with something in our community that is... that has a chance of being successful.

Prior to All In, there wasn't really a chance of being successful because all of the different strategies were at cross-purposes.

Scott: Kris, you have a thought on this?

Kris: I think Erin did a real good job of explaining.

And I'm very hopeful that it will work.

I...

I am...

I am eternally hopeful.

Erin: Right.

And I think that's what I have is hope.

I don't, you know, I mean, it's still difficult.

It's not solved.

And part of the problem is... is that, as I think Kris alluded to in the beginning and kind of what you... what was your original set up question is, you know, what's working and what's not working?

What is necessary is about a six pronged approach.

You know, you need -- we need more affordable housing, We need more shelter space while we wait for that, more affordable housing to be available, we need more drug and alcohol treatment.

We need more mental health treatment.

We need employment resources so that those people who can be successful can move out of that very, very scarce and expensive, permanent, supportive housing.

Kris: We also need, excuse me for interrupting, Erin: Yeah, no, go.

Kris: We also need... We also need some resources for people who are just about to lose their homes.

Erin: 100%.

Prevention resources Kris: Yes.

Exactly.

Erin: Because we have to stop - Kris: Where are any of those?

Erin: Yeah.

We need Kris: And... and... and, its - Erin: All of that in... in much larger supply than we currently have and we need them all to be working together so that this path is a path, not a random assortment of Whac-A-Mole.

Kris: And we need to stop being competitive with one another.

And that's what happens when there's just a pot of money, is that we are all grappling for that little whatever, whatever the pennies are that we're grappling for, you know, an audit was just done, $24 billion in the last five years has been given to California to deal with homelessness, $24 billion.

Thats - Scott: And... And... And... And the way that you emphasize the B in billion on that kind of goes back to the way that a lot of people feel these days, which I'd like you to react to, Kris and then Erin, I'd like you to jump in on this, too, which is that there seems to be a hardening of people feel that homelessness is hopeless in terms of trying to solve.

And they are... they've gone from compassionate to exasperated.

And so you have actions like our DA, who has initiated litigation against the city of Sacramento, but he's not alone.

There are... there are actions, both formal and informal, taking place all over California.

And I'd like to get from... from your standpoint, Kris, will start with you.

What is it that is reasonable for the public to expect in terms of a plan like All In Sacramento or any other activity to show some real progress that's measurable and that people can feel that this issue is really starting to get movement?

Kris: I won't quite answer that question, but what I will say is I don't see any incentive for ending homelessness.

Scott: What?

Explain what you mean.

There's no incentive to end homelessness.

There are a lot of people that are concerned about it.

There are a lot of people who... who are worried.

There are a lot of people who are experiencing homelessness that are miserable.

But what's the incentive for ending it?

Follow the money.

We have bureaucracies after bureaucracies, after bureaucracies that are dealing with this money.

It's providing a whole lot of jobs for people.

It's... it's... providing a lot money for the developers.

But what's the incentive to end it?

Scott: Erin, I'd like your reaction to Scott: Erin, I'd like your reaction to what Kristian said to the question.

Erin: I think that...

I think back to your point.

I think the p -- the citizens are angry and the people experiencing homelessness are angry and they have the right to be -- I mean, everyone has the right to be angry.

I think that there's been a historical failing due to some really reasonable circumstances all the way back to the Great Recession, when we didn't build one unit of housing for about eight years.

That's... that's where it starts.

We're way behind in our capacity to house people in California and... and in Sacramento as well.

Not just affordable housing, all housing.

So... so that's part of the problem.

Then we have a pandemic where we brought all kinds of people inside to the underutilized motels, which was great.

And then that money ran out and then they're all back on the street again.

And we have a criminal justice system that I'm going to say doesn't participate with the rest of us.

So in the -- during the pandemic, there was orders to reduce the jail population.

So lots of people went out into the street to homelessness without a plan.

And so -- and that continues today.

So I'm not an advocate for keeping people in jail, but I'm an advocate for having a plan for those folks when they're exited from jail so that they can have a place to go so that they can get the service that they need.

So they don't recidivate, the district attorney is... is... is speaking what the community, you know, speaking the community's anger.

But he's not offering up solutions about post incarceration release and neither is the sheriff.

So if they were to participate with us and really be All In Sacramento, we might be able to deal with some of that piece of the problem as well.

Scott: Hold on for just a sec.

You're saying the D.A.

and the sheriff aren't participating?

It was -- this plan was passed by the county Board of Supervisors.

They are part of the county's leadership.

Erin: They are elected... Theyre elected officials.

Scott: I understand they're elected.

But are you saying that they were not partners in this process for this plan that you have so much hope for?

Not to the extent that that I think they should be, which is to participate in having an exit strategy for the people that leave incarceration and being part of how do we do that better because there isn't a plan for that.

And that's a piece of the number of people on the street.

It's not all of it.

I'm not saying every homeless person on the street is a criminal or every homeless person came from the jail.

They didn't.

But some number of folks are exited from incarceration every day and they're exited to homelessness.

So we all need to work together on that.

And I think they're... they need to come to the table as well.

And maybe part of that criminal justice budget should be spent on post incarceration release.

Kris: And I think that we also have to remember that it took us 50 years to get here.

It's -- we're not going to solve this problem in five or six years.

It's not going to -- or in a year.

I mean, these... these programs are touted out and rolled out and they said, we're going to end homelessness.

Well, we're going to end homelessness in 30 years.

If we do it right.

And we can have everybody on the same page.

But we're a society that is... that is very impatient and we want a solution now.

We don't want to see tents on the sidewalk anymore.

And, you know, you get you talk to those of us who are on the ground, but it's not going to happen that fast.

Scott: Well, we're going to have to leave it there.

There's last count.

There was somewhere between 16 thousand and 20 thousand people Kris: In Sacramento... Scott: that are considered to be homeless in Sacramento County.

And so let's hope that this new plan and efforts by advocates and leaders like yourself start to make a difference.

Thank you both for coming on and good luck in your work.

Kris: Thank you.

Erin: Thank you for having us.

All right.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guests and thanks to you for watching.

Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪♪ All episodes of Studio Sacramento Along with other KVIE programs are available to watch online at KVIE.ORG/VIDEO