HONOLULU’S RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM IS AT A CRITICAL JUNCTURE.

MISTAKES, DELAYS AND A SKYROCKETING BUDGET HAS DERAILED THE ORIGINAL TIMELINE AND HAS BUILT UP A LACK OF PUBLIC TRUST.

TONIGHT WE’LL DISCUSS THE DIFFICULT TASK OF GETTING RAIL UP AND RUNNING.

THAT’S NEXT ON INSIGHTS.

NOT ON TIME AND WAY OVER BUDGET.

THE DREAM OF HONOLULU’S RAIL PROJECT TO HELP ALLEVIATE TRAFFIC ON OAHU, SEEMS MORE LIKE A NIGHTMARE.

A MULTITUDE OF PROBLEMS RANGING FROM POOR PLANNING TO DEFECTIVE PARTS, CONTINUES TO SUBSTANTIALLY RAISE THE PRICE TAG AND DELAY FURTHER CONSTRUCTION.

SO WHAT NOW?

WHERE WILL THE MONEY COME FROM AND WHERE EXACTLY WILL THE RAIL LINE END?

TONIGHT’S LIVE BROADCAST AND LIVE STREAM OF INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII START NOW.

ALOHA AND WELCOME TO INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII...I'M YUNJI DE NIES.

BEFORE CONSTRUCTION STARTED ON HONOLULU’S ELEVATED RAIL SYSTEM TEN YEARS AGO, THE CITY SAID IT WOULD BE UP AND RUNNING FROM KAPOLEI TO ALA MOANA CENTER BY 2020 AT A COST OF 5.2 BILLION DOLLARS.

IT’S NOW 2021.

ABOUT THREE QUARTERS OF THE ROUTE IS BUILT AND EXPENSES CONTINUE TO BALLOON.

THE LATEST PROJECTIONS INCLUDE A PRICE TAG OF NEARLY 12 AND A HALF BILLION DOLLARS WITH THE SYSTEM FULLY OPERATIONAL BY 2031.

WITH NEW LEADERSHIP IN PLACE, THERE ARE TOUGH DECISIONS TO BE MADE TO GET THIS PROJECT BACK ON TRACK.

WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR PARTICIPATION IN TONIGHT'S SHOW.

YOU CAN EMAIL, CALL OR TWEET YOUR QUESTIONS.

AND YOU’LL FIND A LIVE STREAM OF THIS PROGRAM AT PBSHAWAII.ORG AND THE PBS HAWAII FACEBOOK PAGE.

NOW, TO OUR GUESTS.

JOE UNO IS ON THE HONOLULU AUTHORITY FOR RAPID TRANSPORTATION OR HART BOARD.

WE WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT MR. UNO WILL BE VOICING HIS PROFESSIONAL AND PERSONAL OPINIONS TONIGHT AND IS NOT REPRESENTING OR SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE ENTIRE BOARD.

BRANDON ELEFANTE WAS ELECTED TO THE HONOLULU CITY COUNCIL IN 2014.

HE REPRESENTS DISTRICT 8 WHICH INCLUDES PEARLRIDGE, WAIMALU, PEARL CITY, WAPIO GENTRY AND WAIPAHU.

MARCEL HONORE IS A REPORTER FOR CIVIL BEAT DOT ORG, PRIMARILY COVERING HONOLULU’S RAIL PROJECT.

HE PREVIOUSLY WORKED AT THE HONOLULU STAR ADVERTISER WHERE HE FOCUSED ON TRANSPORTATION.

AND PANOS PREVEDOUROS IS PROFESSOR OF CIVIL AND ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEERING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF HAWAI?I AT MANOA.

HIS AREA OF SPECIALITY IS TRANSPORTATION ENGINEERING INCLUDING TRAFFIC ANALYSIS AND SIMULATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE SUSTAINABILITY.

BEFORE WE START WE WANT TO LET OUR VIEWERS KNOW THAT PBS HAWAII INVITED HONOLULU MAYOR RICK BLANGIARDI AND INTERIM HART CEO LORI KAHIKINA TO PARTICIPATE ON TONIGHT’S PANEL.

BOTH INITIALLY ACCEPTED OUR INVITATION TO TAKE PART IN TONIGHT’S DISCUSSION BUT LATER CANCELLED THEIR APPEARANCES DUE TO “UNFORESEEN CIRCUMSTANCES.” WE ASKED IF THEY COULD SEND OTHER REPRESENTATIVES BUT THAT INVITATION WAS DECLINED.

WE HOPE TO HAVE THEM ON AT A LATER DATE.

BEGIN.

START WITH YOU.

FROM WHERE YOU SIT ON THE BOARD, WHERE IS THE PROJECT RIGHT NOW?

WE'VE SEEN THESE COST OVERRUNS CONTINUE TO PILE UP.

CAN YOU TELL US SORT OF THE LATEST ON WHERE WE ARE IN TERM RAIL LINE ITSELF AND THE BUDGET.

>> RIGHT.

THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION.

RIGHT NOW, THE AIRPORT GUIDEWAY STATIONS GUIDEWAY AND STATIONS CONTRACT ENDS AT MIDDLE STREET.

AS SOON AS IS PAU, SUPERSTRUCTURE CONSTRUCTION IS GOING TO BE FINISHED AT THAT POINT, WE DON'T HAVE ANY PLANER OR CONTRACTS GO FORWARD FROM THERE AT THIS POINT.

WHAT WE'RE WORKING ON NOW WITH THE DILLINGHAM AND LIKE LORI SAID, EXPLAINED ABOUT THE MAUKA SHIFT.

TRYING TO FIND A ROUTE TO MINIMIZE SOME COSTS AND DELAYS.

AND AS YOU SAY, WE'RE AT 12 POINT SOMETHING BILLION.

I WANTED TO POINT SOMETHING, THAT 12.5 BILLION, INCLUDES ABOUT A BILLION DOLLARS OF FINANCING COSTS.

BUT IT'S ALSO WHAT WE CALL P65 OR THE, IT HAS A 65% I'LL THAT IT WILL COME IN AT THAT NUMBER OR BELOW IT.

THERE'S A VERY GOOD CHANCE THAT IF YOU GO TO A P90 OR P100, THAT THE COSTS WILL GO UP.

MAYBE IT COULD BE 13 AND A HALF OR $14 BILLION.

IF YOU WANTED TO GET SOMETHING THAT WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE, THAT WE WERE MORE SURE OF, INSTEAD OF 65 PERCENTILE.

WENT TO HIGHER PERCENTAGE.

WE WOULD GET A HIGHER NUMBER.

THAT'S SOMETHING TO KEEP IN MIND WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ESTIMATED COSTS.

>>Yunji: YOU'VE BEEN COVERING THIS PROJECT FOR SOME TIME.

WHERE ARE THESE COST OVERRUNS COMING FROM?

>> REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I COULD PROBABLY TAKE MOST OF THE HOUR GOING INTO A LOT OF THAT.

YOU KNOW, JOE CAN BACKSTOP ME ON SOME OF THIS.

REALLY, YOU KNOW, I LIKE TO WITH PEOPLE ASK ME ABOUT THIS, AS OF LATE, I REALLY BEEN BOILING IT DOWN TO THE TROUBLES ALONG THE DILLINGHAM CORRIDOR.

THAT HAS JUST BEEN JUST BANE OF THIS PROJECT.

THE INABILITY TO GET THE DESIGNS AND FINAL APPROVALS, DONE IN A TIMELY MANNER, AND IN MY REPORTING ON THIS, IT'S EVEN, MORE SAD IN THAT RAIL OFFICIALS, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST ITERATION OF A RAIL PROJECT, THAT CORRIDOR HAS BEEN FLAGGED FOR SEVERAL DECADES EVEN.

GOING BACK TO THE I WANT TO STATE LATE 80s OR EARLY 90s.

IT WOULD BE A REAL PROBLEM FOR ANY SYSTEM.

IN ANY CASE, THAT IS REALLY STYMIED.

I SEE IT AS A CORE PROBLEM THAT HAS LED TO, HELPED STALL THE ISSUING OF THE CONTRACTS LIKE JOE MENTIONED, IT'S STOPPING AT MIDDLE STREET AND THEY HAVE NOT ISSUED THEY'VE ATTEMPTED AND CANCELED CONTRACT PROCUREMENT FOR THE REMAINING 4 MILES THREE TIMES NOW.

AND WORK ON FOURTH TIME.

A LOT OF THAT STEMS WITH VARIOUS PROBLEMS, GETTING AFFAIRS IN ORDER TO RELOCATE UTILITIES IN THAT CROWDED CORRIDOR ALONG KALIHI.

IN RECENT YEARS, REALLY BOILS DOWN TO DILLINGHAM.

PRIOR YEARS, OTHER ISSUES WITH HOT CONSTRUCTION MARKETS, POOR PLANNINGING LOW CALLING COST ESTIMATES, KIND OF WHERE I SEE THE PROJECT RIGHT NOW, IT'S JUST A FUNDAMENTAL FAILURE AT DILLINGHAM BOULEVARD.

>>Yunji: AS ENGINEER, I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THIS.

>> DEFINITELY.

ONE OF THE KEY WORDS OF THE WHOLE PROCESS IS MISMANAGEMENT MOSTLY ON THE PART OF HART AND ENGINEERING AND STAFF THAT THEY HAD THERE.

I WAS QUITE IMPRESSED WITH KIEWIT WAS ABLE TO SUBMIT, DELIVER TO OUR CITY FIRST 10 MILES FOR $700 MILLION.

THAT WAS AMAZING.

BUT LATER ON, THEY CAME WITH A LOT OF DISPUTES WITH HART.

SO CONTEMPLATED, WALKED OUT OF TOWN.

DIDN'T WANT TO DO ANY OTHER SEGMENT DOES RAIL.

SUBSEQUENT SEGMENT, ONLY 4 MILES AROUND THE AIRPORT, I THINK IT CAME AT A PRICE OF OVER $1.5 BILLION.

DOUBLE THE AMOUNT FOR LESS THAN HALF THE LENGTH.

OF COURSE WE HAD THE OTHER FOUR MILES TO GO FINALLY TO ALA MOANA.

THAT HART BUDGETED FOR ROUGHLY $1.6 BILLION.

NONE OF THE BIDS CAME ANY LESS THAN 2.3 BILLION.

BASICALLY, VARIOUS CONSTRUCTERS DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH HART AND UPPING A LOT OF CHARGES OF UNCERTAINTY IN ORDER DO THEIR PARTS.

IT'S A VERY COMPLICATED SYSTEM BUT THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE COST IN ADDITION TO ANY OTHER WRONGDOING THAT THE DOJ MIGHT SHOW, IS MISMANAGEMENT.

MISMANAGEMENT IS PRETTY OBVIOUS.

>>Yunji: MR. ELEFANTE, AS SOMEBODY REPRESENTS DISTRICT THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE GOING RIGHT THROUGH, WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM YOUR CONSTITUENTS AND DOES THE CITY COUNCIL HAVE THE APPETITE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FUND ALL OF THIS?

>> THANK YOU.

THANK TO YOU PBS HAWAII.

AND MY FELLOW PANELISTS FOR JOINING ME THIS EVENING FOR THIS VERY IMPORTANT TOPIC.

I REPRESENTED DISTRICT SINCE 2014.

ALWAYS BEEN A RAIL SUPPORTER OF IT.

MY DISTRICTS HAS EXPERIENCED SO MUCH CONSTRUCTION AND HAVOC COMING THROUGH THE CORRIDOR ALONG FARRINGTON HIGHWAY AND KAMEHAMEHA HIGHWAY.

FOR A LOT OF THEM, LIVE ON THE WEST, I LIVE IN PEARL CITY.

THEY WANT TO SEE THE PROJECT COME TO FRUITION.

ALBEIT THAT AS JOE MENTIONED, THEY MENTIONED, COST OVERRUNS, MISMANAGEMENT, SO PEOPLE ARE FRUSTRATED AND MORE DELAYS THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE NEWS.

THINK NOW, WITH HART AND NEW LEADERSHIP TEAM THAT THEY HAVE, I'M HOPEFUL THEY CAN WORK WITH THE CITY COUNCIL.

WE DO HAVE TO FIND THAT GAP FINANCING.

I'VE ALWAYS BEEN SOMEONE THAT LOOKED AT G.E.T.

IN PERPETUITY.

THAT IS A TOUGH SELL AT THE LEGISLATURE.

LOOKING AT FLEXIBILITY IN T.A.T.

OR PERHAPS MAYBE LOOK AT FEDERAL FUNDING.

I KNOW SENATOR SCHATZ MENTIONED ABOUT THE 70 MILLION.

HART AS WELL AS COUNCIL CHAIR, ALONG WITH THE MAYOR WROTE A LETTER TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR $800 MILLION.

ALTHOUGH THAT'S A LONG SHOT.

WHETHER OR NOT WE CAN GET THAT.

WE HAVE TO ENSURE THAT WE COMPLY WITH OUR FULL FUNDING GRANT AGREEMENT.

WHICH IS TO BUILD RAIL TO ALA MOANA.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I KNOW FOR THE PEOPLE THAT I REPRESENT THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE COME ON LINE, BECAUSE RAIL IS REALLY TRANSFORMATIVE AND GAME CHANGER PROJECT FOR THE COMMUNITIES.

>>Yunji: TO THAT END, I WANT TO BRING IN THE AUDIENCE BECAUSE THESE QUESTIONS ARE ALREADY PILING UP.

THERE WAS ONE THAT WAS SPECIFIC TO YOU.

DENNIS IN MAKIKI SAYS COUNCILMEMBER ELEFANTE ASIDE FROM THE FEDERAL COMPLIMENT TO REACH ALA MOANA.

WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT REACHING THE SHOPPING MALL?

WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO DENNIS TONIGHT?

>> THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION.

HAS BEEN LONG PLANNED.

HAS BEEN IN OUR EIS STATEMENT AND LONG PLANNING FOR MANY YEARS.

20 MILES IN 21 STATIONS.

FOR THE RESIDENTS LIVING ON WEST SIDE, FROM KAPOLEI, COMING INTO THE CORRIDOR OF ALA MOANA, WE DO HAVE TO DELIVER THAT.

THAT'S PART OF OUR FULL FUNDING GRANT AGREEMENT.

IMPORTANT WE GET THERE.

FINANCING OBVIOUSLY, RESPONSIBILITY WORKING WITH THE HART BOARD, WORKING WITH THE MAYOR, COLLEAGUES ON THE COUNCIL, TO LOOK FOR WAYS TO GET IT TO THAT POINT.

>>Yunji: BUNCH OF QUESTIONS COMING IN ABOUT NEWS THAT BROKE IN THE LAST 24 HOURS, THIS OF COURSE IS ABOUT COLLEEN HANABUSA FORMER CONGRESSMAN COLLEEN HANABUSA, ANNOUNCED, ALSO FORMER HART BOARD CHAIR, ANNOUNCED SHE'S BEEN AWARDED A CONTRACT TO BE OUTSIDE CONSULTANT.

READ NUMBERS HERE.

VALUED $216,000.

COULD EARN AS MUCH AS $924,000 OVER SIX YEAR PERIOD.

IF HER CONTRACT WAS EXTENDED.

WE DO WANT IT MAKE CLEAR WE DID INVITE MISS HANABUSA TO APPEAR ON TONIGHT.

BUT SHE DECLINED OUR INVITATION.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THIS CONTRACT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, AS I STATE IN THE STAR ADVERTISER, I DON'T THINK IT'S QUITE THAT BIG OF A DEAL.

I THINK COLLEEN HANABUSA IS LIKE I SAID, ONE PERSON IN THE WORLD WHO COULD GET ANOTHER ACT ONE THROUGH OUR LEGISLATURE.

I THINK IF BRANDON POINTED OUT, GETTING THE G.E.T.

AND T.A.T.

EXTENDED IN PERPETUITY, IS GOING TO BE A BIG HELP FOR HART.

I MEAN, AND THE COMMUNITY.

BECAUSE EVEN IF WE DID, WE'RE ABLE TO MODIFY THE FULL FUNDING GRANT AGREEMENT AND STOP AT MIDDLE STREET, STILL HAVE OPERATING AND MAINTENANCE EXPENSES.

WHICH THAT WOULD BE BIG HELP IN FUNDING.

I'M HAPPY.

ACTUALLY THAT COLLEEN IS THERE.

SHE'S THE ONE PERSON I THINK THAT CAN DO THIS.

>> POLITICALLY.

>>Yunji: I WANT TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS.

I WANT TO READ A FEW OF THESE QUESTIONS TO GIVE YOU SORT OF A PULSE ON WHAT PEOPLE ARE THINKING RIGHT NOW.

WERE THERE OTHER PEOPLE EVEN CONSIDERED FOR THE POSITION GIVEN TO HANABUSA THAT WAS ANNOUNCED?

JOHN SAYS, WHY DID YOU APPROVE, BUT ACTUALLY LORI KAHIKINA.

APPROVING COLLEEN HANABUSA $200,000 PLUS CONTRACT?

KAHIKINA FIRED ALL CONSULTANTS AND HIRES HANABUSA FOR $200,000.

WHY?

OBVIOUSLY, MENTIONED, COME WAS A SKILL SET EXTREMELY UNIQUE AND SO ONE WOULD SAY SUITED FOR THIS POSITION.

BUT WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS AND WHAT IS YOUR REPORTING ABOUT THIS HIRE?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, I WAS PRETTY AMAZED.

WE POSTED THIS STORY LATE LAST NIGHT.

WELL, YESTERDAY EVENING ON CIVIL BEAT.

IT'S JUST DRAWN A TREMENDOUS RESPONSE.

I KIND OF WONDER, IN THE ECONOMIC CLIMATE, THAT WE'RE IN, ESPECIALLY IN HAWAII, I JUST THINK AT THIS PARTICULAR POINT IN TIME, IT'S WAY PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING, MIGHT HAVE JUST HIT KIND OF A SOUR NOTE.

YEAH, THERE WERE NO OTHER BIDDERS.

IT WAS SIMPLY COLLEEN HANABUSA AND THE CONTRACT LANGUAGE AS WE LAID OUT, IN THE REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS, WAS VERY SPECIFIC.

IT HAD VERY SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS AND QUALIFICATIONS.

THEY WERE LOOKING FOR IN TERMS OF SOMEBODY WHO HAD BEEN LAWYER FOR 20 YEARS, SOMEBODY WHO HAD SO MUCH EXPERIENCE, I BELIEVE IT WAS ABOUT FIVE YEARS EXPERIENCE ON THE STATE LEVEL, WITH DRAFTING POLICY AND LEGISLATION AND DITTO ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

AS CAN YOU IMAGINE, THAT WAS VERY NARROWLY SCOPED.

I THINK PEOPLE DO HAVE A REASON TO KIND OF RAISE THEIR EYEBROWS HOW THAT HAPPENED.

THAT SAID, I'VE GONE THROUGH TWO ROUNDS NOW WHERE THE CITY AND HART HAVE GONE TO THE LEGISLATURE SEEKING A BAILOUT.

AND I CAN TELL YOU, I MEAN, THEY WERE ALMOST PAINFUL TO WATCHES A REPORTER, WATCHING FORMER MAYOR KIRK CALDWELL AND DAN GRABOWSKY AT THE TIME, FORMER CEO AND THESE GUYS, THERE WAS A REALLY JUST, YOU COULD TELL THERE WAS A FUNDAMENTAL, IT'S BEEN A VERY WELL DOCUMENTED RIFT BETWEEN THE FORMER MAYOR AND A LOT OF THE LEGISLATIVE LEADERS THERE.

AND I PARTICULARLY REMEMBER WHEN ON THE SECOND GO ROUND, 2017, IT WAS, COLLEEN HANABUSA AND I BELIEVE SHE WAS BACK IN CONGRESS, REPRESENTATIVE HANABUSA AND SENATOR SCHATZ.

CAME IN AND YOU COULD ALMOST TELL WHEN THEY TESTIFIED, IT DID SEEM TO KIND OF PUT A LOT OF THE LEGISLATORS A BIT MORE AT EASE.

INTANGIBLE IT'S, SKILL SETS.

RELATIONSHIPS BUILT MAY SEEM ARBITRARY.

TALKING ABOUT PROJECT LIKE THIS AND HUGE DOLLAR AMOUNTS TO PUT PEOPLE AT EASE, TALK THEM OFF THE LEDGE.

BIG REASON WHY THE BOARD WENT WITH WITH LORI KAHIKINA.

DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF TRANSPORTATION EXPERIENCE.

BUT THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT SHE HAD WITH THE CITY COUNCIL.

KIND OF THE SAME.

DYNAMIC.

>>Yunji: I SEE YOU WANTING TO WEIGH IN ON THIS.

>> RIGHT.

I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT SHE WILL BE USEFUL TO HART.

BUT SHE WILL BE TERRIBLE FOR THE COMMUNITY.

BECAUSE IF SHE'S ABLE TO OBTAIN MORE MONEY FOR HART, TO SINK THIS PROJECT, THAT WOULD BE VERY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE.

WE HAVE TO FIND A PROPER AND SUITABLE SOLUTION TO STOP IT ASAP AND NOT CONTINUING THROWING BILLIONS OF GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD MONEY.

TERRIBLE POLICY.

NOW, PANDEMIC TIMES, ALL THE RIDERS EXPECTATIONS OUT THE WINDOW.

HOPEFULLY WE'LL GET TO TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

IT'S NOT GOING TO PAN OUT.

THE AMOUNT OF HELP WE EXPECTING FOR TRAFFIC RELIEF AND MOBILITY.

PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO BE RIDING THAT 3 P HUNDRED PEOPLE JUMP INTO A TRAIN (300 PEOPLE JUMP INTO A TRANSIENT VACATIONAL RENTAL TRAIN.

>> NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

>>Yunji: EXPERTISE OF TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IMPACT THIS PRO CORRECT WILL BE ALLEVIATING TRAFFIC WE'LL SEE ESPECIALLY IN PREPANDEMIC TIMES?

>> ACTUALLY DIRECTLY I WANTED TO REFER TO MR. ELEFANTE CORRECTLY SAYS THAT HE IS CONSTITUENTS ARE EXPECTING RELIEF.

BUT IF HE AND HIS CONSTITUENTS HAVE READ THE EIS, WHEN IT WAS PRESENTED, IN 2008, IT CLEARLY SAID THAT IN THE FUTURE CONDITIONS WITH THE RAIL, IN EFFECT, ANY BETWEEN PEARL CITY AND ALA MOANA MORE ADVANTAGEOUS THAN BUS AND CAR THAN BY THE RAIL.

IT WILL ONLY WORK IN TERMS OF SPEEDING TRAVEL TIME FOR IT, MINORITY OF THE POPULATION.

SO AS A MOBILITY PROJECT, IT'S NOT A PROBLEM.

>> EVERYTHING I LOOKED ABOUT IT WAS LOSER SINCE 2008 WHEN I RAN FOR MAYOR.

THOSE WERE THE GOOD NEWS.

NOW, WE'RE FACING, DISCUSSED FINANCIAL COLLAPSE.

NOW RIDERSHIP.

EVEN UNDER PROPER, IF YOU DID IT, WHAT IS CALLED PEER COMPARISON OF OUR PROJECT WITH SIMILAR PROJECTS ON THE MAINLAND AND SIZE OF CITY, DENSITY ASSETS, EXPECTED RIDERSHIP 60 TO 70,000 RIDERS A DAY.

CITY'S EXPECTING 118,000.

PREPANDEMIC.

SO THEREFORE, I THINK CORRECT ESTIMATE FOR IT WOULD BE SOMEWHERE IN THE ORDER OF 70,000 LIKE OTHER CITIES.

MINUS THE EFFECT OF THE PANDEMIC.

WHICH IS AT LEAST 20% DECREASE.

MOST OF THE TRANSIT SYSTEMS IN THE NATION TODAY ARE OPERATING SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 40% AND 80% LOWER PREPANDEMIC.

THERE IS GOING TO BE A HISTORY, NONE OF THE EXPERTS ARE EXPECTING THAT TRANSIT RIDERS WILL EVER RECOVER TO THE POINT THAT THEY WERE.

SO OUR BRAND NEW SYSTEM IS GOING TO START OPERATING AT A DEFICIT ALREADY BECAUSE OF THE LOWER RIDERSHIP THAN EXPECTATIONS.

>>Yunji: MR. ELEFANTE, I WANT TO GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO RESPOND TO THAT.

I MEAN, IF THOSE PROJECTIONS ARE CORRECT, ARE WE JUST THROWING MONEY AWAY?

>> I DON'T FEEL WE'RE THROW MONEY AWAY AT ALL.

TRULY INVESTMENT IN THE COMMUNITY.

TRANSIT ORIENTED TYPE OF PROJECT THAT'S A MULTIMODAL PROJECT.

IT'S BEEN A STRUGGLE FOR MANY DECADES.

HAD WE DONE THIS BACK MANY DECADES AGO, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD BE IN THE SITUATION WE ARE IN TODAY.

WITH HICON INSTRUCTION COSTS, WITH INCREASE IN POPULATION, HIGH CONSTRUCTION COSTS ADJUSTING TO DENSITY AND GROWTH.

ESPECIALLY GETTING INTO THE DILLINGHAM CORRIDOR.

INVESTMENT FOR THE COMMUNITY.

I'LL JUST SAY THIS, THOSE WATCHING, IF YOU'VE EVER EXPERIENCED RUSH HOUR TRAFFIC, COME AND LIVE IN PEARL CITY AND WAIPAHU OR KAPOLEI.

TRAVEL IN THE MORNING TRAFFIC WE TRAVEL IN EVERY DAY.

AND EVEN TODAY, IN JUST THE PANDEMIC, IT'S STILL TAKES ABOUT HALF AN HOUR FROM PEARL CITY TO DOWNTOWN HONOLULU.

BY CAR.

IF WE WERE HAVE A SYSTEM UP AND RUNNING TO GET TO THAT, OBVIOUSLY, REDUCE EFFICIENCY.

YES, WE WOULD HAVE A REDUCTION IN SOME SORT OF TRAFFIC.

NOT A BIG REDUCTION.

PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO THINK ABOUT HOW TO THEY WANT TO RIDE OR GET TO PLACES WITH TELEWORK, WITH THE PANDEMIC.

AT THE SAME TIME, GIVES PEOPLE AN OPTION.

>> ALSO QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUE THAT PRESENTS TO PEOPLE THAT MAY WANT TO LIVE ALONG TRANSIT IN THE FUTURE.

>> MAY I?

RESPOND?

I'M REALLY GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP.

THIS IS A MULTIMODAL MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM.

THIS WAS DESIGNED TO BE BOTH RAIL AND BUS.

I THINK RIGHT NOW, OPPORTUNE TIME TO LOOK AT THE LAGOON DRIVE STATION, WHICH IS ALREADY WRITTEN IN OUR RECOVERY PLAN WE PRESENTED TO THE FEDERAL TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY.

THE LAGOON DRIVE STATION, IF IT WAS USED AS A TRANSIT HUB, YOU COULD BRING GET ON THE TRAIN, LIKE YOU SAY, BRANDON, IN WAIPAHU, PEARL CITY, AIEA TRAVEL ALL THE WAY TO LAGOON DRIVE, GET ON EXPRESS BUS THAT WOULD HAVE DEDICATE LANE TO DOWNTOWN AND ALA MOANA AND WAIKIKI.

YOU COULD GET ON A BUS THAT COULD GO TO CHINATOWN, DOWNTOWN, KAKAAKO, ALA MOANA, AND WAIKIKI.

AND ALSO THE UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII.

I BELIEVE THAT IF YOU USE AN EXPRESS BUS FROM THAT LAGOON STATION, THAT REALLY WILL GET YOU INTO THE DOWNTOWN WITH ONE TRANSFER IN JUST ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME AND I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WORK WITH PROFESSOR ON THAT KIND OF PROJECTION.

BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE TIME IS NOT GOING TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS.

I REALLY THINK, YOU SAY THAT THIS IS INVESTMENT IN OUR FUTURE.

BUT IN MY MIND, AND WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THE OPPORTUNITY COSTS THAT WE'RE GOING TO LOSE BY GOING INTO DEBT 3.5 TO $4 BILLION, THAT'S KIND OF THINGS THAT THE CITY WON'T HAVE THE RESILIENCY TO PAY FIREND, AMBULANCE AND POLICE PROPERLY.

WE WON'T BE ABLE TO HAVE THE RESILIENCE TO SOLVE OUR HOMELESS PROBLEM.

TO END BIG ONE IS PAY DOWN SOME OF THOSE UNFUNDED LIABILITIES THAT WE KEEP ON KICK DOWN THE ROAD EVERY YEAR.

I WOULD SAY THAT BETTER INVESTMENT WOULD BE TO STOP AT MIDDLE STREET.

USE THE LAGOON DRIVE STATION.

AND HOPEFULLY GET MORE BUSSES AND ROBUST STATION.

>>Yunji: IDEA ENDING AT MIDDLE STREET BIG TOPIC DURING THE HONOLULU MAYOR RACE.

ALL OF THE DEBATES WAS ABOUT THIS QUESTION.

THERE IS THE FEDERAL AGREEMENTS THAT WE SIGNED.

HOW WOULD THIS ACTUALLY WORK IF THE CITY DID, OR THE HART BOARD, LORI KAHIKINA, WHOMEVER IS THE PERSON MAKES THAT FINAL CALL, IF THEY MAKE THE PHONE CALL TO END AT MIDDLE STREET, AS FAR AS YOU'RE REPORTING GOES, WHAT HAPPENS?

>> I HATE TO SAY.

KIND OF HEDGE ON THAT.

WE'RE NOT 100% SURE WHAT HAPPENS WITH THAT.

I THINK WHAT THE CITY AND WHAT HART GENERALLY FEAR WOULD HAPPEN IS THAT THE PROJECT WOULD FORFEIT REMAINING $744 MILLION.

AND IN A WORST CASE SCENARIO, THE FTA WOULD REQUIRE A FULL PAY BACK OF THE $1.55 BILLION.

IN OTHER WORDS, $800 MILLION AND CHANGE, I FORGET THE EXACT NUMBER, BUT BASICALLY, HOW MUCH WE'VE SPENT, WHICH IS JUST OVER HALF OF THAT 1.55 BILLION.

I THINK THE KEY QUESTION THERE IS WOULD THEY BASICALLY JUST CUT US OFF AT 800 SOMETHING MILLION.

OR WOULD THEY DEMAND A FULL REFUND.

THERE IS NOT A HUGE AMOUNT OF PRECEDENCE ON THAT.

THERE WAS, I KNOW THE HART BOARD WAS ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THIS BEHIND, IN EXECUTIVE SESSION.

TALK ABOUT THE FFPA, OBLIGATIONS, ALL ON THE CITY.

ONE OF THE DETAILS THAT ACTUALLY KIND OF LEAKED OUT, NOT IN ANY IMPROPER SCANDALOUS WAY, MENTION AFTER THE EXECUTIVE SESSION, ABOUT NEW JERSEY.

AND THIS IS THE PROJECT THAT THEN GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE CANCELED.

FTA REQUESTED A FRACTION BACK, BUT NOT ALL OF IT.

THAT'S ALL TO SAY THAT MAYBE ALSO THROWING IN THERE, THERE'S A LOT OF REPORTING, FTA KEEPS KIND OF KEEP THEIR CARDS CLOSE TO THEIR CHEST, BUT WHAT DOES GET OUT IS THAT THAT AGENCIES IS NOT HAPPY WITH HONOLULU.

THEY'RE KIND OF FED UP WITH HONOLULU.

FORMER BOARDMEMBERS TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY JUST HOLD IT UP AS JUST KIND OF WORST STRUGGLE RIGHT NOW IN MEGA PROJECT THAT THEY'RE DEALING WITH.

SO YOU KIND OF ALSO MIGHT WANT TO FACTOR IN, AGAIN, THESE INTANGIBLES AND I DON'T KNOW.

THOSE ARE THE POSSIBILITIES.

THOSE ARE THE OPTIONS.

AND SHOULD THEY STOP AT MIDDLE STREET, I MEAN, WE WOULD HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE.

>>Yunji: IS THAT A RISK WORTH TAKING?

>> I REALLY BELIEVE SO.

TALK ABOUT NEW JERSEY CASE.

THAT WAS A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT HOPEFUL GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE, OPPOSING A OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AT THE TIME.

THEY OWED $271 MILLION FOR A PROJECT THAT THEY CANCELED.

SO THE PROJECT DIDN'T EVEN GO FORWARD.

IT'S NOT LIKE OURS.

WHERE WE HAVE 75% OF IT BUILT.

AND CHRIS CHRISTIE WAS ABLE TO SETTLE FOR PAYING BACK 90 MILLION OF THE 271 MILLION.

ONE THIRD OF THE 271 MILLION.

WHICH MEANS HE KEPT 180 MILLION OR 2/3 OF THAT MONEY.

IF YOU DID THAT IN HAWAII, OR HONOLULU, WITH THE RAIL RIGHT NOW, $800 MILLION THAT WE HAVE ALREADY SPENT, IF WE WERE SUED AND SETTLED JUST LIKE A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR WOULD HAVE SETTLED, WE WOULD BE PAYING BACK 271 MILLION.

I ASK YOU, WOULDN'T THAT BE A BETTER DEAL, KITCHEN TABLE ECONOMICS.

BRANDON, THIS IS THE PEOPLE IN YOUR DISTRICT, KITCHEN TABLE ECONOMICS.

YOU PAY BACK $271 MILLION.

TO KEEP YOU FROM GOING INTO DEBT BY 3.5 BILLION.

I MEAN, THAT'S BASIC KITCHEN TABLE ECONOMICS.

I JUST I CAN'T MAKE THOSE NUMBERS WORK.

SORRY.

>>Yunji: THOSE NUMBERS ARE ALSO NOT GUARANTEED IN ALL FAIRNESS TO THE COUNCILMAN.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE?

WOULD THE CITY COUNCIL BE WILLING TO TAKE THE RISK OF PERHAPS JUST HAVING TO PAY A PORTION BACK AND ENDING AT MIDDLE STREET?

>> SIMPLE ANSWER TO THAT WOULD BE NO.

HERE IS WHY.

I RESPECT JOE AND I THINK MARCEL BROUGHT UP REALLY GOOD POINTS.

FTA AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT REALLY HOLDS THEIR CARDS CLOSE TO THEIR CHEST.

AS TO WHAT CAN WE DO.

IF HE WERE TO STOP AT MIDDLE STREET.

I'VE NEVER BEEN A BELIEVER IN STOPPING AT MIDDLE STREET.

ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT WE HAD TO BUILD FULL 20 MILES, 21 STATION AS I SPECULATE IN THE FULL FUNDING GRANT AGREEMENT.

THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE TO COMPLY WITH.

NOW, UNDERSTANDING THAT COSTS HAVE GONE UP.

BUT LET ME JUST MAKE THIS POINT HERE.

EVEN IF WE ARE TO STOP AT MIDDLE STREET, HERE IS IN THE SITUATION LIKE NEW JERSEY WITH FORMER GOVERNOR KRISTI.

THINK ABOUT COST DELAYS.

LAWSUITS.

ALL OF THAT PILING UP.

THEN HAVING TO HAVE A CONTRACTOR TEAR DOWN THE RAIL SYSTEM.

WHAT DID WE PLAN FOR DECADES?

JUST PLAN REALLY FOR NOTHING.

AS SOMEONE THAT IS HAS BEEN BORN AND RAISED HERE, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS A TRANSFORMATIVE PROJECT FOR OUR COMMUNITY THAT I CARE ABOUT, THAT WILL BENEFIT FUTURE GENERATIONS.

WHILE YES, THE COST HAS BALLOONED HIGH.

WE THINK ABOUT IT.

GO TO THE STORE.

WE PAY FOR TAX, CUP OF COFFEE, HOW MANY OF US THINK, OKAY, WELL, TAX THAT I'M PAYING FOR THAT, G.E.T.

ON THAT GOING TO RAIL.

WE ALL CONTRIBUTE.

RESIDENTS AND VISITORS ALIKE TO THAT.

WE DO HAVE TO GET A POINT B.

MAKE SURE THAT WE FINISH THAT.

THAT DECISION IS GOING TO REST WITH JOE AND FELLOW COLLEAGUES ON THE BOARD HOW THEY GO FORWARD.

IMPORTANT THAT THE FTA, CLEAR PARTNER IN THIS.

WE'RE IN THIS TOGETHER ALONG WITH THE CITY AS WELL AS OUR STATE COLLEAGUES.

>>Yunji: GO AHEAD.

>> THERE ARE THREE THINGS THERE THAT I WOULD LIKE TO CLARIFY.

NUMBER ONE, IS THAT'S BEEN MADE CLEAR THAT THE CITY COUNCIL IS ACTUALLY THE SIGNATORY TO THE FULL FUNDING GRANT AGREEMENT.

AND NOT HART.

SO THE ACTUAL PEOPLE THAT MAKE THE DECISION AND SIGN THE PAPER FOR THE CITY & COUNTY ON THE BEHALF OF CITY & COUNTY IS CITY COUNCIL.

AND THE MAYOR.

THE OTHER THING IS YOU MIGHT HAVE MISSED MY POINT ABOUT MULTIMODAL MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM.

I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF TEARING ANYTHING DOWN.

BRANDON.

I WANT TO UTILIZE EVERY MILE AND EVERY STATION THAT WE HAVE ALREADY BUILT.

I THINK WE HAVE REALLY GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT.

NUMBER 3, YOU MENTIONED DELAYS.

THERE IS GOING TO BE TEN YEARS FROM NOW, A DECADE, FROM WHEN WE PLAN ON FINISHING.

>> AGAIN, THAT'S A P65 PLAN ON FINISHING IN 2031.

65% CHANCE THAT THAT IS THE DATE.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION, THE THIRD DECADE OF THIS 21ST CENTURY IS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE MOST TRANSFORMATIVE DECADES IN MY LIFE AND DEFINITELY IN YOUR LIFE.

AND THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE OF THE CITY & COUNTY OF HONOLULU.

AND THE WORLD.

THERE ARE SOME TRANSFORMATIVE DISTRUPTIVE TECHNOLOGIES RIGHT NOW.

THAT ARE CONVERGING AND THINGS LIKE AUTONOMOUS DRIVING AND AUTONOMOUS VEHICLES, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AND A NUMBER OF OTHER DISRUPTIVE TECHNOLOGIES THAT I THINK YOU KNOW, BY THE TIME TEN YEARS GOES BY, THIS IS GOING TO BE LIKE STANDING ON THE ALA MOANA STATION IF YOU GET YOUR WISH, AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE HOLDING A MOTOROLA BRICK PHONE.

PROBABLY TOO YOUNG TO REMEMBER THOSE.

THAT WAS THE FIRST >> I REMEMBER THOSE.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

TECHNOLOGY IS GOING.

IT IS MOVING FAST.

IT'S MOVING AT EXPONENTIAL RATE.

I THINK IT'S REALLY WISE FOR US TO STOP AND CONSIDER THAT.

CONSIDER AGAIN, I'M GOING TO REPEAT, OPPORTUNITY COSTS THAT WE WOULD LOSE IF WE GO INTO DEBT FOR 3 AND A HALF TO $4 BILLION, TO FINISH THIS TO ALA MOANA.

>>Yunji: I WANT TO GET YOUR INSIGHT ON THIS.

SPECIFICALLY, ALSO JUST AS A ENGINEER.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SORT OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE AROUND MIDDLE STREET.

IS IT REALISTIC TO ACTUALLY HAVE THE STATION AND THERE?

DO WE HAVE THE BUS LINES?

ESSENTIALLY, DO WE HAVE THE SPACE FOR THAT TO ACTUALLY WORK AS AN END POINT FOR THIS PROJECT?

>> IT'S QUITE REALISTIC.

WHILE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SLIGHTLY TWO DIFFERENT PLACES LAGOON AND MIDDLE STREET, VERY CLOSE TO EACH OTHER.

MIDDLE STREET WAS DESIGNED WITH FTA MONEY AS INTERMODAL CENTER.

SO IF WE WERE TO GIVE SLIGHT TURN TO THE TRAIN AND BRING IT ON TOP, OF THE EXISTING INTERMODAL CENTER, IT'S A WIN, WIN, WIN.

WE HAVE RAIL, BUS AND TRANSIT RIGHT THERE.

PARATRANSIT.

INTELLIGENCE ELECTRIC BUSSES TAKING EVERYWHERE THEY NEED TO GO.

SO ACTUALLY, THIS IS A WINNING LOCATION FOR FTA.

BECAUSE IT'S NOT REALLY STOPPING IT.

IT'S REALLY ENABLING IT TO CONTROL THE COSTS AND STILL PROVIDE THE RIDERSHIP AND THE SERVICE THAT PEOPLE WERE EXPECTING.

WE NEED TO MAKE LEMONADE OUT OF THE LEMONS THAT WE WERE DEALT.

NOTHING TRANSFORMATIVE IN THE RAIL RATHER THAN TAKING US BACK TO 19TH CENTURY.

THERE IS NO WAY THAT YOUNG PEOPLE WILL FIND TRANSFORMATIVE AND STEEL ON STEEL, CLACKITY CLACK.

DOESN'T BELONG WITH TRANSPORTATION.

WORKING THREE CARS.

PING PONG, TRAINS BETWEEN STATION.

DOES VERY LITTLE.

THAT'S NOT MY OPINION.

EIS SAID THAT.

AT THE TIME EIS WAS CONDUCTED, MAKING 4 MILLION TRIPS A DAY.

EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE THE CITY, 118,000 OF THEM WILL BE ON RAIL.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT, TWO DROPS IN THE BUCKET INSTEAD OF ONE.

SO LET'S STOP TALKING ABOUT TRANSFORMATION AND OPPORTUNITIES.

THIS IS A COMPLETE LOSER FROM DAY ONE.

I AGREE THAT AT LEAST SOME PEOPLE LIKE JOE AND PERHAPS A FEW MORE THINKING ABOUT SALVAGING AND MAKING SOMETHING THAT WILL WORK AND WILL STOP THE BLEEDING.

ENABLING THIS SYSTEM WITH AN EXTRA $3.4 MILLION REMEMBER, JOEY EXPLAINING IT, I HOPE YOU FOLKS UNDERSTAND, P65 MEANS 65% PROBABILITY.

NOR 35% PROBABILITY THAT THE PROJECT WILL GO HIGHER.

I CAN PROVIDE YOU WITH DOCUMENTATION OF 2,009, THAT THE FTA HAD RAN THIS PROJECT HAVING 10% PROBABILITY OF HAVING COST OF $10.5 BILLION OR MORE.

BACK IN 2009.

FTA KNEW THAT THIS PROJECT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO CONSTRUCT ISLAND COMMUNITY AND THEIR PRODUCTION CAME TRUE.

THEY HAVE BEEN A PARTNER IN THIS.

THEREFORE, I AGREE WITH MARCEL, WE DON'T HAVE THE CLEAR ANSWER HOW THEY'RE GOING TO DEAL WITH IT.

BUT I DOUBT IT THAT SINCE THE PROVIDED ALL OF THIS INFORMATION FROM THE EARLY YEARS, OF THE SYSTEM CAN BECOME VERY EXPENSIVE TO CONSTRUCT, COME BACK AND SAY, GIVE US THE MONEY BACK.

THEY THEMSELVES SAID THAT THEY COULD COST $10 BILLION.

IF WE STOP, THEY SAY OKAY, YOU STOP, BUT WE WANT YOUR MONEY BACK.

ALTHOUGH WE HAD TOLD YOU THIS WOULD COST OVER $10 BILLION.

THEIR OWN DOCUMENTATION WILL TELL US IF WE HAD TO SUE THEM, TO NOT RETURN A DIME.

>>Yunji: I WANT TO MOVE ON TO SOME, JUST PHYSICAL PROBLEM WAS THE TRAIN.

LORI KAHIKINA ANNOUNCED NOT TOO LONG AGO, ISSUES WITH THE WHEELS ON THE TRACK.

CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE PHYSICAL PROBLEMS WE'RE SEEING WITH THIS SYSTEM BEFORE WE EVEN HAVE ANY TRAINS RUNNING ON IT?

>> I GOT TO SAY.

THIS ONE WAS PRETTY JARRING.

COVERED A FEW OF THE DEFECTS AND SOME OF THE GLITCHES THAT HAVE HAPPENED.

ALONG THE WAY.

BUT THIS SEEMS TO BE A FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DRIVERLESS TRAINS WOULD BE THE FIRST MAJOR DRIVERLESS SYSTEM, AND THE LIKE.

BUT THE FUNDAMENTAL, PROBLEMS THAT HAVE JUST BEEN SPRINGING UP ARE VERY BASIC.

BASICALLY ABOUT HOW THE STEEL WHEELS FIT ON THE TRACK.

THERE WERE, I THINK IT'S ABOUT DIFFERENCE OF HALF OF AN INCH WIDTH WHERE THE WHEELS ARE SLIGHTLY TOO NARROW.

THEY KIND OF JUT OUT AND FIT ON TO THE TRACK.

SO AT CERTAIN JUNCTURE, THE CROSSING, WHICH ARE CALLED FROGS IN THE END INDUSTRY, SO THESE ARE SEVERAL POINTS JOE CAN CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, FIVE OR SIX POINTS ON THE WEST SIDE, WHERE THE TRAIN HAS TO ACTUALLY KIND OF TURN AND CURVE ON THESE CROSSINGS.

THE WHEELS ARE NOT OPERATING CORRECTLY.

THERE'S ISSUES WITH WEAR AND TEAR BASED ON THIS SLIGHT DIFFERENCE IN THE WIDTH FOR HOW WIDE THE WHEELS HAVE TO FIT OVER THE RAILS.

TALK ABOUT FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES OF WHEELS, STEEL WHEELS FITTING ON TRAIN TRACKS.

WHICH HAS TO GIVE ANYBODY PAUSE.

WE'RE HEARING DEBATE ABOUT THE VALIDITY GOING ON TO MIDDLE STREET.

OR SORRY, ALA MOANA.

BUT YOU KNOW, JUST THIS ISSUE HAS CROPPED UP ON SUCH A BASIC LEVEL, IS A LITTLE DISCONCERTING AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HART HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO YEARS, RACING TO TRY AND GET AT LEAST LIMITED OPERATION.

ALONG THE FIRST TEN MILES.

WE'RE ALL TALKING RIGHT NOW, NOBODY CAN SAY 100% HOW THIS WOULD BE RECEIVED AND WHAT THE RIDERSHIP ULTIMATELY WOULD BE.

AS WE ALL KIND OF TALK ABOUT THIS.

VERY GOOD POINTS.

BUT WHAT HART AND THE CITY, IF THEY REALLY WANT TO TURN THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION, AND REALLY START TO GET PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT RAIL DIFFERENTLY, INSTEAD OF ALL OF THESE ISSUES AND STORIES I HAVE TO WRITE ABOUT, LATEST SNAFUS, NEED TO GET PEOPLE ON THE TRAINS AT LEAST TRY IT OUT, SEE HOW IT WOULD WORK AND THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO FOR YEARS.

THEY WERE ON THE CUSP OF DOING IT.

ANNOUNCED LAST YEAR.

BY THE END OF 2020.

OPERATIONAL AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FINALLY ENCOUNTER AND EXPERIENCE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THE POSSIBILITIES WOULD BE DOWN THE ROAD SEVERAL YEARS PRESUMABLY WHEN THEY COMPLETE THE FULL 20 MILES.

THIS FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HAS PUT THEM BACK AT LEAST WHAT HART IS REPORTING, LORI KAHIKINA REPORTING, COULD BE ANOTHER YEAR DELAY ON GETTING THOSE INTERIM SERVICE OPERATIONS GOING.

WHICH AGAIN, JUST FROM THE STANDPOINT OF TRYING TO GET PEOPLE COMFORTABLE WITH RAIL, UNDERSTANDING IT, AS SOMETHING THAT IS MORE THAN JUST THIS GIANT KIND OF MONEY PIT, IT'S I REALLY BAD SITUATION.

TO BE HONEST.

>>Yunji: HOW DIFFICULT THIS PROBLEM TO FIX?

>> COMPLETE REPLACEMENT.

NOTHING ELSE WE CAN FIX THERE WITH TOOLS.

I BELIEVE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF FROGS IS SOMEWHERE 70 OR 80.

THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED WITH SOMETHING THAT FITS THE SPECK OF THE WHEELS OF THE TRAIN.

MORE EXPENSIVE TO TRY TO RETROFIT THE TRAINS.

I THINK THEY NEED TO DO BRAND NEW EQUIPMENT ON THE TRACK.

THAT WILL BE BOTH EXPENSIVE AND TIME CONSUMING.

UNFORTUNATELY, BECAUSE OF THAT, TRAINS CANNOT GO AT 50 MILES PER HOUR AT ANY POINT.

DELAY UNTIL THESE ARE FIXED.

>>Yunji: AS FAR AS THE BOARD OR IN YOUR POSITION, WHAT YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO SEE.

NOT SPEAKING ENTIRE BOARD.

BUT PRIVY TO A LOT MORE INFORMATION THAN MOST US.

WHOSE FAULT IS THIS AND WHO IS GOING TO PAY TO FIX IT?

>> WELL, WISH IT WAS THAT EASY.

EXTEND BLAME.

BUT I'M SURE THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG DRAWN OUT PROCESS.

I THINK THAT LORI WAS VERY CONFIDENT IN HER ASSESSMENT THAT THE CONTRACT LANGUAGE, SPECIFICATIONS THAT WERE WRITTEN, CLEARLY DELINEATED THAT HITACHI WAS RESPONSIBLE FORFEITING THE CAR AND THE TRAIN ON TO THE TRACK.

APPARENTLY THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE BEEN DONE PROPERLY.

SO FROM WHAT I HEAR, THAT AND I THINK LORI SAID THIS PUBLICLY, THAT WE BELIEVE THAT THE FAULT IS WITH THE HITACHI.

AND YEAH.

>>Yunji: I WOULD IMAGINE THAT ON THE CITY COUNCIL, SEEING THIS COME IN, YOU'RE TRYING TO BOOST CONFIDENCE IN THIS PROJECT.

AS OTHER PANELISTS HAVE MENTIONED.

THERE HAS BEEN THIS SORT OF PUSH TO GET PEOPLE ACTUALLY ON THESE TRAINS IN SOME CAPACITY.

TELL US YOUR REACTION TO THAT NEWS.

>> WELL, I WAS VERY ALARMED BY THAT AND SURPRISED ON THE FROGS.

PARTICULARLY BECAUSE IT WAS THE FIRST THAT I HAD HEARD OF IT WHEN DIRECTOR KAHIKINA BROUGHT IT TO ATTENTION, GENERAL PUBLIC AND BEFORE THE CITY COUNCIL.

CLEARLY, WE DO NEED TO REMEDY THAT ISSUE AND FIX THAT.

BECAUSE WE NEED TO HAVE A SAFE SYSTEM IN PLACE.

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THE TRAINS HAVE HAVE TO SLOW DOWN WHEN THEY GET TO THE CROSSPOINTS OR FROGS AREA WE DON'T WANT TO JEOPARDIZE PEOPLE THAT GET ON TRANSIT TO NOT FEEL SAFE.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PROJECT IS SAFE, THAT PEOPLE CAN FEEL COMFORTABLE, BUILD CONFIDENCE IN PEOPLE TO RIDE THE SYSTEM.

>>Yunji: I HAVE ANOTHER SORT OF BASIC QUESTION ABOUT THE TRACK ITSELF.

AS WE MENTIONED AT THE TOP, 3/4 APPROXIMATELY ALREADY BUILT.

ANY DOWN SIDE TO LEAVING THIS UNUSED IN THE TIMES TAKING?

SHOULD WE AT LEAST GET TRAINS RUNNING ON IT IN SOME CAPACITY, PROVIDED THAT THE ISSUE THAT WE JUST LAID OUT IS FIXED?

IS IT BAD TO ESSENTIALLY JUST HAVE THE EQUIPMENT SITTING THERE?

>> NOTE SO MUCH FOR THE TRACK.

BECAUSE RUST IS ACTUALLY PROTECTANT.

>> SYSTEM, RAIL ASKS RUST AND THEY'LL BE FINE AFTER 2 OR 3 YEARS IF YOU WANT TO USE THEM.

HOWEVER, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE CONDITIONING OF THE TRAINS BECAUSE WE KEEP BUYING TRAINS AND WE HAVE THEM IN THE BARN NEXT TO THE VERY HIGH SALT ENVIRONMENT.

HUMIDITY.

SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF IMPACT THIS WOULD HAVE ON THE QUALITY OF TRAINS WHEN WE PUT THEM IN OPERATION.

HOW LONG THEY WILL LAST AND WHETHER THEY'LL HAVE PROBLEMS OF HUMIDITY AND SALT AFFECTING THEIR ELECTRONICS.

>>Yunji: WE'VE GOT A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS.

WANT TO POSE THIS.

ABOUT THE VARIOUS AUDITS THAT HAVE HAPPENED.

MARK ON FACEBOOK SAYS, HAS ANYONE HIRED FORENSIC ACCOUNTANTS TO LOOK FOR ILLEGAL ACTIVITY OR WASTE?

WHEN IF EVER CAN WE THE TAXPAYORS OF HAWAII HAVE A FORENSIC AUDIT ON THE FUNDS SPENT ALLOCATED OR ALLOTTED, FINISHING THE TRAIL ALONG WITH WITH TRANSPARENT RESULTS OF THE AUDIT.

CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE FINANCIAL REVIEWS?

THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL.

>> THERE'S BEEN NUMEROUS PERFORMANCE AUDITS.

BOTH ON THE STATE AND CITY LEVEL.

THEY HAVE LAID OUT, MADE MY JOB EASIER FRANKLY IN A LOT OF WAYS.

WHEN THEY LAY OUT OF A LOT OF ISSUES.

AS FAR AS FORENSIC AUDIT, SOMETHING THAT DIRECTLY LOOKS FOR MALFEASANCE, THIS IDEA HAS BEEN THROWN AROUND FOR SEVERAL YEARS.

AND I BELIEVE IT WAS COUNCILMEMBER ELEFANTE CAN CORRECT ME, COLLEAGUE COUNCILMEMBER TSUNEYOSHI PROPOSED, I WANT TO SAY EITHER IN 2019 OR 2020, PUTTING MONEY, I THINK MONEY WAS ACTUALLY ALLOCATED FOR A FORENSIC AUDIT AT A MOMENT WHEN IT SEEMED LIKE IT COULD WORK.

AND THAT ALLOCATION WAS PULLED.

CASUALTY MORE OR LESS OF THE PANDEMIC, THAT'S HOW IT WAS EXPLAINED AT THE TIME.

THAT THEY BASICALLY PULLED BACK FROM EXECUTING THIS FORENSIC AUDIT.

A LOT OF WOULD HAVE BEEN OCCURRED, CONTRACTED DO THAT INDEPENDENT, SPECIALIZED IN IT.

THAT WAS MOVING FORWARD ON THE CITY COUNCIL LEVEL.

I DON'T BELIEVE IT HAS BEEN RESURRECTED IN ANY WAY.

AND THIS IS ALL YOU KNOW, PANOS ALLUDED TO THIS BRIEFLY EARLIER.

ALL STILL IN THE BACKDROP ARE INVESTIGATIONS INTO POTENTIAL CRIMINAL WRONGDOING ANIMAL FEES AND BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

FEDERAL LEVEL AND ON THE STATE LEVEL.

AND AS A REPORT, I CAN TELL YOU, EXTREMELY HARD TO KIND OF CRACK THAT SHELL AND REALLY SEE WHAT IS GOING ON OTHER THAN THE SUBPOENAS AND YOU KNOW, LIMITED THINGS HERE AND THERE, BUT IT DOES SEEM CLEAR THAT THAT IS STILL PROCEEDING IN SOME FASHION.

THEY ARE INVESTIGATING TO SEE, LOOK, WAS THERE REAL FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY, ANY SORT OF MALFEASANCE.

YEAH, THAT IS KIND OF, I THINK THAT'S WHERE IF YOU'RE GOING SEE SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR, FORENSIC AUDIT, IT WOULD COME OUT OF THAT.

OH, AND I MEANT TO SAY THAT'S BOARD, JOE CAN ATTEST, BRIEFED ON THIS IN EXECUTIVE SESSION ABOUT A MONTH AGO.

SO THERE DOES AND THEY STAYED IN THERE FOR A LONG TIME.

SEEMED PRETTY CLEAR THAT IT WANT TO JUST SAY THAT, OH, WE'RE GOOD.

EVERYTHING IS DONE.

THEY WERE BRIEFED FOR A GOOD AMOUNT OF TIME.

IT DOES SEEM THAT THAT KIND OF ACCOUNTABILITY LOOKING FOR THOSE KIND OF ISSUES IS STILL MOVING ON.

>>Yunji: MR. ELEFANTE, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT THE COUNCIL STILL WANTS?

>> I HAVEN'T SEEN A PROPOSAL.

EARLIER PROPOSAL IN OUR EARLIER AMENDMENTS FOR THAT.

STILL ONGOING INVESTIGATION BY THE DOJ PERHAPS MAYBE SOME FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY.

WE NEVER KNOW WHAT THAT INVESTIGATION IS.

SO THERE'S STILL THAT.

AND SOME PERFORMANCE AUDITS DONE.

I KNOW HART AS WELL AS BOARD WORK TO DO MEET SOME OF THOSE METRICS AND ADDRESS SOME OF THE CONCERNS FROM THE PERFORMANCE AUDITS IN THE PAST.

>>Yunji: IT'S HARD TO HAVE PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN THIS KIND OF PROJECT WHEN YOU HAVE THOSE CLOUDS HAPPENING OVERHEAD.

PROBABLY LIMITED WHAT YOU CAN TELL YOU.

DO YOU THINK THERE SHOULD BE SOME KIND OF PUBLIC FORENSIC AUDIT FOR THIS PROJECT?

>> DEFINITELY.

PROJECT OF THIS MAGNITUDE, DESERVES TO HAVE A FORENSIC, NOT ONLY FORENSIC AUDIT BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE PROCEDURES IN PLACE WHERE AND MY COLLEAGUE NATALIE, IWASA CAN SPEAK TO THIS BETTER THAN I CAN.

PROCEDURES PUT IN PLACE WHERE FRAUD CANNOT HAPPEN.

WOULD BE CAUGHT.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOMEONE WATCHING HEN HOUSE SO TO SPEAK.

I DON'T WHEN YOU SPEAK OF PUBLIC CONFIDENCE, I THINK COUNCILMAN ELEFANTE, YOU AND I REPRESENT INSTITUTIONS PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS, YOU AT THE CITY COUNCIL AND MYSELF AT HART, RECENTLY, MARCEL ORGANIZATION DID A POLL AND 80% OF THE PEOPLE IN THAT WOULD RESPONDED TO THAT POLL COULD NOT RESPOND POSITIVELY TO THE COMMENT OR THE STATEMENTS THAT THE GOVERNMENT INCLUDING HART I THINK, TO A BIG DEGREE, ARE HONEST OR TRANSPARENT OR WORKING IN THEIR BEST INTERESTS.

I THINK YOU AND I AS STEWARDS OF PUBLIC TRUST PUBLIC MONDAY.

>> WE HAVE TO TAKE A BIG LESSON THAT FROM AT THAT KIND OF POOL 80% HUGE NUMBER DON'T BELIEVE IN THE INSTITUTIONS THAT YOU AND I REPRESENT.

I FEEL THAT REAL HEAVY WEIGHT FROM THAT REALIZATION.

SO THANK YOU TO MARCEL, TO CIVIL BEAT FOR DOING THAT POLL.

IT WASN'T COMFORTABLE.

IT'S NOT COMFORTABLE BUT IT IS WHERE WE'RE AT.

BIG DEAL FOR BOTH OF US.

>>Yunji: I WANT TO GET TO THIS BECAUSE IT SPEAKS TO THINK A LITTLE BIT.

COUNCILMEMBER ELEFANTE.

ALOMA SAYS, HOW CAN THIS COST BE JUSTIFIED WHEN THE ISLAND INFRASTRUCTURE IS IN SUCH DISREPAIR?

COUNCIL EVERYBODY YOU'RE MAKING A LOT OF DECISIONS ON THE CITY BUDGET.

WHEN YOU SPEND ALL OF THIS MONEY ON RAIL, OBVIOUSLY.

OTHER THINGS COULD SUFFER.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO ALOMA ABOUT THOSE DECISIONS.

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

EVERY YEAR WE LOOK AT OUR CIP, CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROJECT BUDGET.

EVERY YEAR.

PAST WHEN OUR ROADS WERE DETERIORATING.

ADMINISTRATION WORKING WITH COUNCIL, WOULD PUT IN OVER HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO REPAIR DISREPAIRED ROADWAYS AND INFRASTRUCTURE.

HART PROJECT IS ONE ISSUE.

AND INFRASTRUCTURE AS WE GET INTO OUR CITY & COUNTY, CAN BE ANOTHER.

SO WE HAVE HART.

WITH FEDERAL FUNDS.

G.E.T.

T.A.T.

OTHER SOURCES.

FOR THAT.

AT THAT CAN HELP FOR THAT.

WE ALSO HAVE THESE OTHER NEEDS LIKE INFRASTRUCTURE.

YES, WE CAN LOOK AT BOTH OF THAT.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THAT ALSO COMES WITH NEEDS AND DEMANDS FOR THE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES WHETHER IT'S STAFFING, FUNDING FOR AREA AND AS WE KNOW, YES, ALL ON SOME TIGHT BUDGETS ESPECIALLY DURING THIS PANDEMIC.

AND MAJOR SOURCE OF REVENUE FOR THE CITY IS REAL PROPERTY TAX.

VERY LIMITED AS TO WHAT WE CAN DO IN TERMS OF FUNDING PROJECTS FOR INFRASTRUCTURE.

BUT I DO THINK, WITH RAIL, AND FUNDING MECHANISMS WITH IT, THERE'S NOT MUCH FLEXIBILITY ESPECIALLY WITH AS JOE MENTIONED, ACT 1 TIES THE HANDS HOW WE CAN USE FUNDING AND FLEXIBILITY FOR IT.

>>Yunji: I WANT TO MAKE SURE I GET TO EACH YOU TO GET A FINAL THOUGHT TONIGHT.

I WOULD JUST LIKE TO KNOW, GIVEN ALL THAT WE LAID OUT AND THERE WAS MUCH MORE WE COULD PROBABLY DO A WHOLE OTHER HOUR ON, I HAVE A BIG STACK OF QUESTIONS HERE.

WHAT IS THE BEST CASE SCENARIO WITH THIS PROJECT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD BE DONE RIGHT NOW SO THAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE TAXPAYORS SO ALL OF THIS MONEY HAS NOT GONE TO WASTE.

I'LL START WITH YOU.

>> I THINK WE SHOULD FOCUS ALL OF OUR EFFORTS TO TRY TO COMPLETE THE SYSTEM TO MIDDLE STREET OR NEAR IT AND GIVE IT TO THE PEOPLE TO USE.

EVERY LIVING MOMENT AND EVERY DOLLAR THAT HART HAS SHOULD, AREN'T PROVIDING OPERATIONAL CITY FOR OUR SYSTEM.

FORGET ALA MOANA.

ANOTHER $4 BILLION.

UNACCEPTABLE POLICY POSITION.

THIS RAIL NEEDS TO BE DONE AND GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE WITHIN A COUPLE OF YEARS.

PERIOD.

AND THEN DECIDE LATER ON IF WE WANT TO EXPAND IT TO ALA MOANA OR BEYOND.

BUT FOR NOW, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

IT'S BECOME WAY TOO RIDICULOUS, WAY TO EXPENSIVE.

IT'S ALSO VERY SIGNIFICANT THAT'S DONE AND NEEDS TO BE DONE AND GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE TO RIDE IT.

BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, IT'S JUST A CONSTRUCTION PROJECT FOR TEN YEARS.

12 YEARS.

AND NOTHING IS BEING ENJOYED BY OUR CITY.

IT'S TIME TO ENJOY WHAT WE HAVE AND THEN PERHAPS EXPAND IT.

>>Yunji: MR. ELEFANTE?

>> WHAT I WOULD SAY TO THAT, IS THAT WE DO HAVE THE FINISH THE PROJECT WHAT WE START WITH.

FROM POINT A TO POINT B.

WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE.

THE KEY IS DILLINGHAM CORRIDOR.

DO THE SHIFT, WORKING WITH FTA.

AND CITY CENTER.

MIGHT BE SOME DELAYS TO HOW WE GO ABOUT THAT.

MIGHT NOT HAPPEN RIGHT AWAY AS WE GET STATIONS ON LINE.

GUIDEWAY.

AND GETTING UTILITY RELOCATION ALL OF THAT.

THAT'S GOING TO BE THE CHALLENGE.

I DO FEEL THAT WE DO HAVE TO HAVE SYSTEM IN OPERATION SOON.

AND I THINK IT'S CRITICAL THAT WE CAN START OPEN UP THAT FIRST 10 MILES TO ALOHA STADIUM AND MAYBE STATIONS COME ON LINE, TO THE AIRPORT, AND FURTHER, REALLY HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT AND CONTINUE TO COLLABORATE WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT PARTNERS THAT ARE INVOLVED.

AS WE LOOK TO SEE HOW WE CAN COMPLETE IT TO GET TO POINT B.

>>Yunji: YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> YOU KNOW, I TRY TO FRAME THESE THINGS IN SIMON, HAS A BOOK CALLED START WITH WHY.

AND I BELIEVE THAT IS A REALLY GOOD WAY TO START.

FOR ME, HART REPRESENTS THE WHY IS TO PROVIDE MULTIMODAL MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM THAT WORKS AND IS AFFORDABLE.

AND I THINK IF WE CHANGE SOME OF OUR VIEWPOINTS TO THAT, AND RECOGNIZE THAT THAT IS WHY WE EXIST, TO PROVIDE A SYSTEM THAT WORKS, WITHIN THE FUNDING THAT WE HAVE.

I THINK THAT WILL HELP SOLVE OUR PROBLEMS.

LAGOON DRIVE STATION STUDIED LIKE I SAID.

IT IS PART OF THE RECOVERY PLAN THAT WE ARE OPERATING UNDER AT THIS MOMENT.

LAGOON DRIVE STATION HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS A GOOD PLACE TO STOP AND TO HAVE, TO HAVE PEOPLE GET OFF AND ON THE TRAIN.

AND ON TO BUS, OFF AND ON TO BUSSES.

SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE A REAL GOOD OPPORTUNITY AND AGAIN, I'M GOING TO JUST MENTION THAT OPPORTUNITY COSTS, I THINK THAT IS A BIG, BIG DEAL.

I REALLY DO.

GOING INTO DEBT FOR ANOTHER 3.5 TO $4 BILLION IS GOING TO ROB US OF THE RESILIENCE AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THINGS BETTER THINGS FOR OUR, WHOLE OF OUR CITY IN THE FUTURE.

>>Yunji: JUST HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT.

WITHOUT ASKING YOU TO EDITORIALIZE, HOW DO YOU THINK WE FLIP THAT 80% IN THE OTHER DIRECTION IN?

>> I'M SORRY.

80%.

>>Yunji: THE POLL.

>> TRUST.

I WANTED TO DO MAKE A QUICK POINT.

HEARING LOT OF GREAT IDEAS ALL SIDES OF THIS.

MAYBE TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, WE NEED MORE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS.

I KNOW JOE UNO MIGHT KIND OF SHRUG AT THAT.

HEARING ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT IDEAS.

PANOS ON ONE END.

COUNCILMEMBER ELEFANTE ON THE OTHER END.

FROM U.H., SOME SORT OF ECONOMIC COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS TO GIVE PEOPLE A CLEAR PICTURE AT THIS 12.4 BILLION COST.

>>Yunji: WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

MAHALO TO YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT – AND WE THANK OUR GUESTS HART BOARD MEMBER JOE UNO, HONOLULU CITY COUNCILMAN BRANDON ELEFANTE, MARCEL HONORE FROM CIVIL BEAT.ORG, AND CIVIL ENGINEER PANOS PREVEDOUROS.

NEXT WEEK ON INSIGHTS, THE HAWAII STATE LEGISLATURE JUST WRAPPED UP A SESSION LIKE NO OTHER.

WE’LL HEAR FROM STATE LAWMAKERS AND COMMUNITY WATCH DOGS TO GO OVER WHAT EXACTLY THEY DID AND HOW IT WILL BENEFIT HAWAII RESIDENTS.

PLEASE JOIN US THEN.

I’M YUNJI DE NIES FOR INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAI`I, ALOHA!