(upbeat music) (graphic pops) - Hello and welcome to "The Journal."

I'm Steve Kendall.

Too many of those who have served our country carry invisible burdens.

H.O.O.V.E.S.

is an equine-assisted healing program that seeks to address those issues for people who find themselves with certain challenges.

We're joined by Amanda Held and Mike Panza.

I wanna welcome you both to "The Journal."

Thank you for coming on to talk about this very important thing that you work on.

And Amanda, kind of give us a background, the startup of Hooves and what's behind it, just sort of an overview of what you folks do.

- Absolutely.

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having us today.

And I founded the H.O.O.V.E.S.

Program in 2009, and we became a 501-C3 officially in 2011.

And I like to say the program was really created from my own personal struggles and my own personal success story.

So I transitioned out of the Air Force, active duty in 2003, and I had a great military career.

What I really struggled with was the transition.

And I really felt like I had left purpose behind.

I had a hard time going back into society, and I was living in Colorado at the time, and on the Air Force Academy, and I got introduced to wild horses.

And I had been an equestrian all my life until I left for the military.

And there was one particular horse, her name's Shelby, and I adopted her.

And as I was navigating my transition, I would go work with Shelby every day, and what I realized is I was putting myself in a specific mindset every day before I would go and work with her, and I didn't know at the time about neuroscience and all the things I know now.

I just knew that I was actively putting myself in a good head space, and over time, I felt better, and I started to make better decisions for my life.

So I ended up actually moving back to Swanton, Ohio, where I'm from, and I went to school for business.

And in doing that, I wanted to start a boarding and training facility for horses.

So I went into business with my dad.

I took him to lunch and told him he needed a retirement investment.

(pair laughs) - [Amanda] Bless his heart.

Well, you know, the quickest way to make a million dollars on a horse farm?

- [Steve] What's that?

- [Amanda] Start with 2 million.

- [Steve] Start with 2 million, ah.

(everyone laughs) - [Steve] Dun dun dun dun.

(claps table) No, go ahead.

- [Amanda] So anyway, I did the whole boarding and training, and I didn't feel like it was purposeful.

I didn't feel like it was having the impact that I wanted to have.

Meanwhile, I had joined the Air National Guard, and what I had noticed is the struggle that my fellow service members were experiencing when they came back from deployment.

And in 2009 is when I was introduced to Equine Assisted Psychotherapy and Learning through the Eagala Program, which is the Equine Assisted Growth and Learning Association.

And as soon as I found out about it, it was just like lightning struck my body and I was like, "This is my purpose, and I know that this will work for our veterans."

And so I founded the H.O.O.V.E.S.

Program.

- Yeah, yeah, and Mike, you're a participant.

How did you come to be involved in this?

- So, for me, H.O.O.V.E.S.

kind of started out as a personal journey.

There's a gentleman that I worked with, and we were both going through some things in our life.

Where we're located at is in Delta, Ohio, which is relatively close to Swanton, and we had heard about Hooves.

I will admit to being highly skeptical on my way in.

Not a horse person or a farm person by nature.

Honestly, I didn't even want to get in the same pen as a horse.

[Steve] They can be intimidatin because they're big animals.

- Yes, absolutely.

So, but talking with my buddy Chris, and kind of working through some things, and we both decided that we wanted to see, you know, does this work.

We'd heard about it, we wanted to see if it was gonna work.

So we made the decision to go.

And it was really kind of cool for me.

I have another friend that I was in the military with, Robert Drake, and he lives all the way on the other side of the country in Washington.

And I think that's part of the H.O.O.V.E.S.

story too, because I mentioned this to him in passing a week before I went to H.O.O.V.E.S., and never anticipating he might show up.

He lives in Washington.

- [Steve] Yeah, okay.

- And, you know, he mentioned he was, you know, considering looking for some assistance himself, and kind of dropped it at that, and a week later, I'm sitting at Hooves and I'm actually out on her patio, sitting at the table and the van from the airport pulls in, and my buddy from work is sitting there and we're kind of going back and forth, and this guy gets out of the van, and I'm looking at him and I'm going, "Man, he looks familiar."

And I kind of catch myself staring at him, and then I catch him staring back, and I'm thinking, "I don't even know if I know this guy."

It's been 24 years since I've seen my friend.

But then he spoke, he was like, "Mike Panza," and I was like, "Robert Drake."

This was just an immediate thing.

So for me, I feel like I got a really little bit extra when I went through H.O.O.V.E.S.

because I got to bring a friend of mine from in the military when I was in combat, and I got to bring another military brother of mine that I met at my employer.

So like, I got to bring like almost a fire team with me to H.O.O.V.E.S.

to go face the large farm animals.

- Yeah, and I guess Amanda now, was his story be...

I know there's no typical situation here, but is that what can happen where you get one person, who then you now have other people joining them because of their connections in their previous endeavors, and now they're here and they find out this works for them as well?

- We've had a little bit of that in the past, but I wouldn't say to this degree.

I think there's a community of healing retreats for veterans, and so some people will go to them together, but I do feel like this was a really special circumstance, and we did keep it a secret.

So we knew what was coming, and he had no idea.

- [Steve] Ah, okay.

- And it was just so special.

- [Steve] Yeah.

- [Steve] It really was special.

- Yeah, because obviously, you want to make people at ease.

That's the whole idea of this, and then expand upon that, and as you said, you had a little bit of trepidation about, and especially if you've never been around animals at all.

Even people who grew up on farms that don't have livestock, when they encounter them, it's like, oh.

You know, so if you had no experience, that would be another area to be just a little concerned about.

But obviously, the program puts you at ease right away.

- [Mike] I don't know if I'd say right away.

On day one, you actually sit outside and you talk about perception.

So you're outside of a pen, and you're watching some horses, and they're interacting.

And the horses that they chose that day were, I wanna say Petie, Pistol and somebody else.

So I didn't really know the horses at that point.

I just saw a blonde horse and a much larger, bigger horse, and there was a couple other ones, but those were the ones that kind of drew my eye.

And as we're sitting outside the pen watching him, the blonde horse walks over and bites the big horse, not hard, it just walks over and like nips at 'em, and the big horse, like now they're getting rowdy.

And remember, I'm not real fond of big animals in the first place, and now I'm like, and we had just talked about, once we talk about our perception about the horses, we're gonna go in and meet them and test our perceptions.

And now I'm sitting there thinking, I've ran at people with guns.

You are not gonna get me in that pen though.

I don't think that's going to happen today.

But by the end of it, yes, you get in there, and you're around the horses and you kind of face your fear, and you look for how to interpret the horse, and you kind of read the horse the same way that you would read a person, or a dog, or an animal that you're more familiar with.

And that's really what it kind of turns into.

Once you get that level of comfort, then you can be around them and you're not nervous, and now it's like this whole new interaction you get to have with an animal that you don't have very much background with, and that can make it really powerful as well, because you know, you're there, you're dealing with a lot of really deep issues.

So to have something that pulls your interest and kind of takes the focus off of the really heavy material that you're dealing with, like that's a little bit of magic right there.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we'll talk more about that because it is interesting the way it brings you into a situation where you don't, in a way, maybe you're not even aware that you're sort of adapting to all of this and feeling better about it, which then moves over into the other areas that you were there for in the first place.

So when we come back, we can talk more about that, and the horses too, because you mentioned, horses have very unique personalities and they develop relationships and friends, and not so much friends, occasionally, amongst themselves.

But we can talk about that as well.

Back in just a moment with the folks from Hooves, here on "The Journal," back in a moment.

Thanks for staying with us on "The Journal."

Our guests are Amanda Held and Mike Panza from H.O.O.V.E.S.

And Amanda, we've talked a little bit about the background, and then Mike talked about his initial experience, but kind of talk about the more overall thing, because obviously, he has a set of experiences, and as you mentioned, not maybe as typical as some.

So kind of talk about, yeah, how you go about this process, because obviously, you wanna make everybody at ease.

The horses have to be at ease, all of that.

So kind of explain the interaction that takes place, as people come and go, and horses come and go.

- Absolutely.

So we have put the program in a five day intensive format.

We also offer 11 months of success coaching afterwards online because we bring veterans in nationwide.

And so they'll show up on a Tuesday evening, and Tuesday evening is really just about decompressing, connecting.

There's no agenda, we do introductions, and other than that, it's just like, relax, enjoy the space.

And then we follow a format where in the morning, we'll do a mindfulness practice every morning.

So that's meditating with the horses, that's yoga, breath work, anything we can do to show people, or give them different options to reconnect with their body.

Then we go into the classroom and we do about four to six hours a day of a curriculum that I've developed, and the curriculum is largely based on the laws of nature.

And we, I like to say, you're not who you were before you joined the military.

You're not who you were while you were serving in the military, and if you don't know who you are, that everybody that loves you is happy to tell you who you should be.

- [Steve] Oh, okay.

Ha ha.

- And if that's not congruent, then you can find yourself in a dark place.

So the curriculum is really about finding out who you are, how can you manage your perspective to live better, and then who would you like to become in the future?

So we do that and we take what we discover about ourselves in the classroom in the afternoon out to the horses, and that's where we like to say the magic happens, but the magic is actually a lot of science as well.

- Yeah, there is scientific content for the process.

So you get to the point where now you're with the horses.

Yeah.

- Absolutely.

And it feels magic, but I like to say, horses will reflect the life inside of the human.

So anything that we're suppressing, our horses, scientifically, they can tune into our heart rate variability.

They can sync with our heart rate, or they can help elevate our heart rate, so they can really tune into our nervous system, our energy field.

And so they're gonna pick up on all the things that are shoved down in there, and they are gonna start to express those repressions.

So that might look like, you know, maybe inside, everybody's feeling like they're not being authentic and the horses are gonna go to the other side of the arena, and they don't want anything to do with the people.

- [Steve] Yeah, because it's not real for them.

They sense you're not getting true feelings- - [Amanda] Yeah, and if you're not congruent, if the outside doesn't match the inside, you're not safe.

And so, you know, we do the mental part in the classroom where we think about our lives, but then we put it to the test with the horses, and what will happen, a lot of times, and we kind of use chaos theory to a degree, is that they'll be given different activities to do with the horses, and if they're not congruent already, which most people aren't when they come in, they'll get frustrated.

But when they get to a certain breaking point of frustration, they get broken open, they get cracked open, and that's when the authenticity comes out and the vulnerability comes out.

And, you know, sometimes that's messy, but the horses don't care.

They don't care if it's messy, they just wanna see if it's real.

And so somebody will maybe get frustrated.

I'll have Mike share maybe an experience that he had, but then they start to speak their truth, and they become magnetic.

And then all of a sudden, all these horses are around you and they're validating like, this is who we wanna see.

This is who everyone wants to see because this is really you.

And once you get a taste of who you are, it's easier to get back to that place when you leave.

- [Steve] Yeah, and I guess Mike, and as you were mentioning earlier, your first visioning of the horse was like, "Oh my, oh my."

And you're somebody who's dealt with really stressful situations, dangerous situations, and yet, your initial thing was, "I don't know if I'm comfortable with this at all."

So yeah.

- [Mike] 100% Oh, you know what's even funnier is I ended up working with Pistol, who was the blonde horse that bit the big horse, that first intensive.

He ended up being the horse that, for whatever reason, we had a connection and- - [Steve] Yep.

- So, you know, I can take you even to the next day.

So the next day after you do your impressions, you've gotta go out there and you meet the horses, and you're deciding who you're gonna bring back with you, or who's interested in coming back to the pen to work with you.

So, you know, you're being let out.

Now, it's not just a couple of horses, you're gonna walk out amongst one of the herds.

So as you're approaching, it's a much larger pen, but there are many more horses inside the pen.

So, you know, they upped the stakes on you a little bit, and it's fun because, you know, I've been back a few times now as a mentor, and went through some e-whim, and it's relatively the same feel every time.

You're walking up to the pen, and you're looking out, and the horses are doing their own thing, and as soon as you open the gate, there's a few that turn around and look like, "Well, maybe I'm ready to come and see what the humans are doing."

And then there's the rest that just turn around and walk to the other side of the pasture.

They're like, "Nope, not today.

Sorry, pal."

- [Steve] Not interested at the moment.

Yeah, yeah.

- And that's also, for me on day two, is when I really started to look at the horses that we were gonna be working with, and one of the things that I'll share that really struck me was how many of them have some kind of visible physical injury, a missing eye, very prominent scar somewhere.

You know, at this point, I'm sure Amanda told us that they were, you know, she rescued horses, but that didn't sink in, because we were there as humans trying to be rescued.

But you know, you go out there that second day, and you're looking, and there's these big, giant, beautiful horses, and he turns his head, and he's missing an eye, and you're like, "Oh wow."

- [Steve] So he's gone through some trauma, some stress, so yeah.

- [Mike] Yes, you know, this horse has been through something too, and that's when it really first started to hit me, like, but he's part of this herd.

And you know, these horses don't look like they came from the same parents.

So, you know, these are horses from all over the place that have been through something, and they've formed their own little unit in this pasture, and they just kind of go about life.

So that was kind of my day two initial thought.

And then they hand you a lead and this funny looking contraption, and they're like, go put this on the horse, and I'm gonna share with you that that is a lot harder (laughs) than it looks.

- [Steve] Than they make it look on TV?

(laughs) - Yes.

(laughs) So- - [Steve] Oh, I'll bet.

- [Mike] You get the headgear on and then you're like, trying to figure out where do I buckle it, and then I'm thinking, how's this horse gonna take it when I reach underneath his head?

But you know, you get him hooked up, and I thought that I had won the battle because, you know, they opened the gate, and a couple of the horses were walking, and I didn't know that Pistol was just following the other horses at this point.

So I'm walking and I think, I've got this game won.

- [Steve] I got this done, yeah.

Yeah, we're good, yeah.

- [Mike] So we keep going and we get over to the pen, and I may be 10 feet away, and I'm thinking, I've won the game, right?

And then Pistol decides he's seen some grass that he wants to eat.

- [Steve] Ohhhhhh... - So he goes over and he puts his head down, and like, he's not trying to resist me, he's just that much stronger than I am.

You know, he puts his head down, and I'm a big guy, so my first thought was, I'm gonna pull this leash, like I would with a dog- - [Steve] dog and he'll follow.

- (laughs) No.

(pair laughs) That's not how that goes.

- [Steve] That's not how this goes.

- And the best part is, is like the staff is sitting there, and they can see that Pistols eating, and the rest of the horses are in the pen, and they can see that I am growing increasingly frustrating, and they're watching, and eventually one will come over and go, "Try putting your foot under his nose."

And I'm thinking, he's eating the grass, why would I put my foot in between his mouth and the grass?

But you wave your foot, and as your foot's coming, the horse lifts his nose up so that you don't hit him in the side of the head, and then he puts his head right back down.

So now I'm playing that game with the horse.

I slide my foot, he lifts his nose.

As soon as the foot's passed, he's right back to eating like nothing has happened.

So, you know, there's like this compound movement.

It's the sweep, the foot, pull on the rein, and once his head's up, you gotta start walking somewhere to redirect him.

It took me probably 20 minutes to get the last 10 feet into that pen.

And by the time I got in there, like I wanted a medal.

I'm gonna be very honest with you.

I wanted a ceremony at the end.

I wanted a star, I wanted something, because I got this horse into this pen.

- [Steve] Yeah, and feel good about how you went about doing it, yeah, yeah.

- And then the whole rest of the time you're in there, you don't have the lead, and now you're trying to get the horse, as Amanda said, you know, there's something that we're trying to do.

You know, we're working through some exercise and the horse is like our co-author in here.

The only thing is, is the co-author is way more interested, like she said, in whether or not what's inside of you is jiving with what it's seeing on the outside of you than it is with whatever it is you are trying to accomplish.

- Yeah, so it's, yeah, yeah.

Well hold that thought because we'll come back and pick that up.

I know, I hate to interrupt you right there, but they're telling me we gotta go on for a second.

But yeah, 'cause it's interesting because the amount, and the thing that surprises me the most about this is the fact that the horses really sense what you are feeling, because we look at horses and go, as you thought, "Well, they'll just follow along.

I'll do this and that."

So we come back, we can talk a little bit more about that and your experience as well, continue this story.

Back in just a moment here on "The Journal."

You are with us on "The Journal," I guess, for Amanda held and Mike Panza from H.O.O.V.E.S.

And Mike, you were in the middle of a great story.

So pick that up again where you were at, because we were going down a great line of thought there.

- So we're in the pen and I've got 'em in, and I'm having all those elated feelings, and the lead comes off and, you know, I'll actually use one of the examples is, you know, you as the folks that are in the intensive, you set up a series of obstacles that represent obstacles in your life, and you know, it's been a journey with the horse, and you know, the task that day is to get the horse to follow you without a lead, without, you know, bribing him, cajoling them.

You have to get the horse to follow you through the obstacles, and you're out in the pasture until this is done.

And dinner is in the house with the air conditioning.

And that is a really, really difficult thing to do if you've never really worked with a horse, because, you know, like we've been talking about, the horse is trying to decide if you're balanced enough that it wants to interact with you.

- [Steve] Yeah, does it trust you to yeah, to follow your lead kind of stuff.

- [Mike] Yes, and you've put yourself in a situation that's gonna stress you out.

So the more stressed out you are, the less balanced you are, the less this horse wants anything to do with you.

So as you're trying to figure this out, you have to get to a point where you finally, like, you hit this breaking point, and as you break, as you admit to yourself, there's no way that I can will this horse to do these things.

All of a sudden, you start to come into alignment with yourself, and the horse just comes over.

And the next thing you know, you're walking, and the horse is just following you.

You don't know why.

- [Steve] Just hanging out with you.

- [Mike] It has decided to follow you, but it has, and you know, that's the real fun thing for me is that, you know the 45 minutes after we leave pasture, before we break for the evening for dinner, they're gonna explain to you why that happened, and that's one of the really cool things about Hooves is as you're going through it, you want to know, why did that just happen, because it's not lining up with the experiences that I've had before, even the experience I had yesterday while I was here.

So there's a lot of really, really cool things like that, just the way that they have things set up, and the interactions, and the stages you go through with the horses.

And, you know, for me that was some of the stuff that you really, it hooks you.

You want to come back, you wanna understand it, you want to do it.

- Yeah, and then obviously, bring others along too who will benefit from that.

Now, we were talking a little bit off camera about the fact that for the horses, this is sort of, it's very therapeutic for them because they've been through some situations.

You said they're rescue horses, so they're almost reacting the same way that the humans are to them.

They're doing that same sort of thing mentally and physically in their mind as well.

-[Amanda] Absolutely, all of the horses at the farm are rescues and sometimes when we get them in, sometimes they're angry, and they're expressive in that form.

Sometimes they're just so far into learned helplessness that they're shut down and the life seems to be gone.

And I feel like for rescued horses and humans alike, I think what we really want is just to be seen and listened to.

And so a lot of our work just revolves around holding a container for whatever to come up, to come up without judgment.

Because the horses definitely go through a process as well, and the cool thing is, they can be healing and going through that process at the same time as the veterans, because we're really, as facilitators, we're just creating a container, - [Steve] A space.

- A space for authenticity on both ends, and then all of a sudden, it's like the human is heard by the horse, and they're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm seen and heard.

Something in me has healed," right?

And they're giving that energy back to the horse, and then the horse is saying, "I was heard as well."

- [Steve] It's like the same thing.

Wow.

- So it is, it all just flows.

So I don't know if I explained that well.

- [Steve] No, no, because in essence, both the horse and the human are moving in this path together.

It's a shared thing.

You may not know it at the time, but that's what's going on, and yet, that's how it works.

They're healing the same way that you are, and in the end, hopefully everybody's in a better place when it's over.

- [Amanda] Absolutely.

A lot of people ask me like, "What type of training do the horses have to go through to be able to do this for the veterans?"

And I say, "None."

It's more about un-training for people and horses.

I just need the horse to be a horse.

I just need the person to be a person.

- [Steve] Yeah, just everybody just, yeah.

It's easy to say, "Just relax and go with it," but in essence, that's what you sort of have to do is just follow along and go where the horse or the human is leading, and then see who follows along and how fast they follow along, and that kind of thing.

And then, yeah.

Now when people come to you, does everybody, I mean obviously, how many people you have at a given time, probably some people move through this faster, better than others, because obviously, we're all different.

We all have different experiences, different things that we're bringing to the table, good and bad.

So how do you, I mean, is there any concern that maybe someone feels, "Hey, I'm not, it should be going better than this."

Because we all have that whenever we're doing anything.

So how do you deal with that, that some people are hitting it off right away, and other people are like, "I don't know, I've been with a horse for three days and she's looking at me like, 'What are you doing here,' kind of, yeah.

- Absolutely.

We keep joking that I'm gonna get a shirt that just says, "Trust the process."

Because there are people that come the first day and they're like, they are bought in.

They're like, "This is amazing.

I'm so bought in."

You know, and then sometimes people are like, "They're just horses being horses.

Like, none of this makes sense."

I've learned over time, you know, and after doing this for 15 years, yeah, when I first started, I would get nervous before every session.

Like, is it gonna work?

What if somebody doesn't get anything out of it?

But there's never been a time that people didn't get what they needed, you know?

And some people come through, like Mike did a whole life upheaval, restructure, you know, and some people come through and they just wanna sleep better at night, you know?

- [Steve] Yeah, what they can take away from it that works for them.

- I try to remind myself, and when I teach my facilitators, the moment that we worry about an outcome, we've made it about us.

It's not about the clients and the horses anymore.

And so we really all just truly trust the process, and after you do that so many times, you know, yes, sometimes people don't get their breakthrough 'til Sunday morning.

It's like, you know, we've got graduation in eight hours and they're still like, "I don't get it."

- [Steve] Yeah, they're not there yet, but then- - But the program is built for everyone when they're ready to have their breakthrough, and it looks different for everyone.

But yeah, the process, it really just works, and we have just gotten to this point now where we just let it flow, and let it unfold.

- [Steve] Now if someone wants to find out more, wants to get in touch with you, or say, I think I might want to be involved in this, what's the simplest way for them to do that?

- The best way is just to go to our website, Hooves.US.

On September 1st, we are going to launch our documentary on YouTube.

So we filmed a documentary for Suicide Awareness Month.

We are gonna put that on YouTube.

That will also be on our website.

So the website's a great way to get plugged in.

We always need volunteers.

This program is provided at no cost to our veterans.

So we're always looking for sponsorships.

We have our Save 22 Club, it's just $22 a month.

And if you know a veteran that's struggling, you know, this is not cost.

All they have to do is be willing to show up.

- Okay, well great, Amanda Held, Mike Panza, thank you so much.

Learned a lot and hopefully a lot of people did too, because you can read, you can see, but when you guys explain it the way you talked about it, Mike, really brings it back to what it really is like.

So we appreciate you doing this and we appreciate you coming on, and feel free to get in touch with us and come on anytime, because obviously, it's a very important thing that you guys are doing.

So we appreciate it very much.

- [Amanda] Thanks Steve.

- [Mike] Thanks for having us.

- Yeah, thank you.

You can check us out at WBGU.org.

You can watch us every Thursday night at 8:00 PM on WBGU-PBS.

We will see you again next time.

Goodnight and good luck.

(upbeat music)