AMNA: AT STANFORD'S SOCIAL NEUROSCIENCE LABORATORY, SCIENTISTS HAVE SPENT YEARS STUDYING KINDNESS, CONNECTION, AND EMPATHY.

BUT THOSE CAN ALL SEEM IN SHORT SUPPLY AT A TIME OF DEEP DIVISIONS AND UNCERTAINTY.

THE HEAD OF THAT LAB, JAMIL ZAKI, OFFERS A DIFFERENT VIEW: A DATA-DRIVEN REASON TO BE HOPEFUL ABOUT EACH OTHER AND THE FUTURE.

I SPOKE WITH ZAKI RECENTLY ABOUT HIS LATEST BOOK CALLED "HOPE FOR CYNICS: THE SURPRISING SCIENCE OF HUMAN GOODNESS."

WELCOME TO THE NEWS HOUR.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

YOU HAPPEN STUDYING HUMAN GOODNESS AND KINDNESS FOR 20 YEARS, WHICH SEEMS LIKE A GREAT JOB.

YOU WROTE IN THIS BOOK THAT OVER THE LAST 10 OR 15 YEARS, YOU YOURSELF STARTED TO LOSE HOPE.

YOU SAID I COULD RECITE EVIDENCE ABOUT KINDNESS FROM MY LAB AND A DOZEN OTHERS.

BUT AS THE WORLD SEEMED TO GROW GREEDIER AND MORE HOSTILE, MY INSTINCTS REFUSED TO FOLLOW THE SCIENCE.

THIS IS PROBABLY SOMETHING A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO.

SO DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT WAS IT YOU WERE FEELING?

JAMIL: WELL, IT IS A COOL JOB, FIRST OF ALL.

IT'S THE STUDY OF HUMAN GOODNESS.

AND I THINK BECAUSE OF THAT, I HAVE BECOME A LITTLE BIT OF AN UNOFFICIAL AMBASSADOR FOR HUMANITY'S BETTER ANGELS.

PEOPLE ASK ME TO SPEAK OR WRITE WHEN THEY WANT TO FEEL GOOD ABOUT OUR SPECIES.

BUT I CAN TELL YOU STUDYING SOMETHING ISN'T ALWAYS THE SAME AS FEELING IT.

AND FOR ME, ESPECIALLY DURING THE EARLY PANDEMIC IN LOCKDOWN, WHEN I WAS EXPERIENCING HUMANITY MOSTLY THROUGH SCREENS, I STARTED TO REALLY FEEL AS THOUGH NO MATTER HOW MUCH I LOOKED AT THE SCIENCE, I FELT AS THOUGH PEOPLE WERE SELFISH AND DISHONEST.

I FELT A SPLIT BETWEEN MY JOB AND MYSELF.

AMNA: YOU TALK ABOUT THAT CYNICISM, RIGHT, AS A LACK OF FAITH IN OUR FELLOW HUMANS.

YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT IT AS A TOOL OF THE STATUS QUO.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

WHO BENEFITS FROM CYNICISM?

JAMIL: SO CYNICISM, AGAIN, IS THE THEORY THAT PEOPLE ARE SELFISH, GREEDY AND DISHONEST.

IT'S ON THE RISE.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY, WELL, MAYBE THAT'S GOOD BECAUSE CYNICS MIGHT BE RADICALS WHO HOLD POWER TO ACCOUNT.

IT TURNS OUT THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE.

CYNICS SEE SOCIAL PROBLEMS, BUT THEY DON'T SEE ANY SOLUTIONS.

AND IF YOU THINK THAT OUR PROBLEMS REPRESENT WHO WE REALLY ARE, WHY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT?

SO CYNICS END UP VOTING LESS OFTEN THAN NON CYNICS, PROTESTING LESS OFTEN.

AND IN FACT, THE PEOPLE WHO BENEFIT FROM A POPULATION THAT DOESN'T TRUST ITSELF ARE OFTEN AUTOCRATS AND AUTHORITARIANS.

THAT'S WHY I CALL IT A TOOL OF THE STATUS QUO.

AMNA: YOU ALSO DOCUMENT, AND THERE'S A LOT OF DATA TO BACK THIS UP IN YOUR BOOK, REAL-WORLD PHYSICAL AND SOCIAL BENEFITS TO LIVING IN LOW CYNICISM, HIGH TRUST SOCIETIES.

WHEN ARE THOSE BENEFITS?

WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND?

JAMIL: THEY REALLY OCCUR AT EVERY LEVEL.

SO TRUST IS OUR WILLINGNESS TO BE VULNERABLE TO OTHER PEOPLE.

AND IT'S CRUCIAL TO BUILDING IMPORTANT RELATIONSHIPS IN OUR LIVES, TO HAVING NOURISHING COMMUNITIES THAT HELP US FEEL HAPPIER AND LESS STRESSED, BUT ALSO TO HAVE IN COMMUNITIES THAT - - TO HAVING COMMUNITIES THAT FUNCTION, FOR INSTANCE, CIVICALLY AND ECONOMICALLY.

SO IT TURNS OUT THAT FROM INDIVIDUALS TO FAMILIES TO ORGANIZATIONS TO CULTURE WRIT LARGE, TRUST HELPS US OPERATE, HELPS US SUCCEED, AND CYNICISM DISINTEGRATES THAT.

AMNA: I THINK HERE IN THE U.S., ESPECIALLY AROUND NOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT CYNICISM AND THOSE DIVIDES WE SEE ALONG POLITICAL LINES OF JUST HOW PEOPLE HAVE SORTED.

YOU WRITE ABOUT THAT IN YOUR BOOK AND YOU SAY, DURING THE SAME ERA IN WHICH AMERICANS LOST TRUST IN ONE ANOTHER, THEY GREW CONTEMPT FOR PEOPLE WITH WHOM WE DISAGREE.

IN 1980, U.S. REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS FELT LOTS OF WARMTH TOWARDS THEIR OWN PARTY.

NEUTRAL ABOUT THE OTHER.

BY 2020, EACH PARTY DISLIKED THE OTHER SIDE MORE THAN THEY LIKED THEIR OWN.

SO YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES AT THE LAB IN 2022 BROUGHT TOGETHER 100 AMERICANS, BASICALLY, WHO DISAGREED AND HAD THEM ENGAGE IN RANDOM ZOOM CALLS WITH EACH OTHER TO TALK ABOUT REALLY DIFFICULT THINGS.

WHY DID YOU FIND?

JAMIL: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE ARE DIVIDED, AND I DON'T WANT TO DIMINISH THAT.

THERE IS SO MUCH DISAGREEMENT AND A LOT OF REALLY DANGEROUS DIVISION IN OUR NATION AS WELL.

BUT THE DIVISIONS IN OUR MIND ARE MUCH LARGER THAN THEY ARE IN REALITY.

AMNA: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

JAMIL: WELL, IT TURNS OUT IF YOU ASK DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, WHAT DOES THE AVERAGE PERSON YOU DISAGREE WITH THINK?

WHAT DO THEY WANT?

WHAT DO THEY LIKE?

WE ARE WRONG ON NEARLY EVERY MEASURE.

WE THINK THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON WE DISAGREE WITH IS FAR MORE EXTREME THAN THEY REALLY ARE.

WE THINK THAT THEY ARE TWICE AS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, TWICE AS HATEFUL, AND FOUR TIMES AS VIOLENT AS THEY REALLY ARE.

IN MANY WAYS, WE ARE FIGHTING PHANTOMS BECAUSE WE DON'T INTERACT WITH PEOPLE WE DISAGREE WITH AS MUCH AS WE USED TO.

SO IN OUR LAB, WE TRIED TO CHANGE THAT.

WE BROUGHT PEOPLE TOGETHER FOR THESE CONVERSATIONS, THINGS LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE AND GUN RIGHTS.

AND WE ASKED THEM TO PREDICT HOW DO YOU THINK THESE CONVERSATIONS WILL GO?

AND THEY SAID SOMEWHERE BETWEEN NEUTRAL TO POORLY.

WE THEN HAD THEM HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS AND ASKED, HOW DID THAT GO, ON A SCALE OF 0 TO 100, IN TERMS OF PLEASANTNESS AND THE MOST COMMON RESPONSE WE GOT WAS 100.

PEOPLE LOVED CONNECTING.

THEY WERE SHOCKED BY HOW OPEN MINDED, WARM, AND INTERESTED IN THEM THE PERSON ON THE OTHER SIDE WAS.

AMNA: YOU ADVOCATE FOR THIS, THIS IDEA OF TAKING LEAPS OF FAITH, OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE BOOK.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

HOW CAN PEOPLE DO THAT?

JAMIL: THE DATA ARE REALLY CLEAR.

PEOPLE ARE OVERALL MORE TRUSTWORTHY, KINDER, MORE OPEN MINDED, AND FRIENDLIER THAN WE REALIZE THEY ARE.

OF COURSE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO HARM OUT THERE, BUT THE AVERAGE PERSON UNDERESTIMATES THE AVERAGE PERSON.

AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT WHEN WE GIVE PEOPLE A CHANCE TO SHOW US WHO THEY ARE BY PUTTING THOSE LITTLE LEAPS OF FAITH, OF SMALL ACTS OF TRUST INTO THEM, OFTENTIMES WE ARE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED BY WHAT THEY GIVE BACK.

AMNA: YOU START THE BOOK WITH YOUR OWN CRISIS OF HOPE, AS IT WERE.

WHERE ARE YOU NOW?

JAMIL: I WOULD CONSIDER MYSELF A RECOVERING CYNIC, NOT RECOVERED.

THIS PRACTICING HOPE TAKES TIME.

THE SAME WAY THAT PRACTICING RUNNING OR YOGA TAKES TIME.

IT TAKES EFFORT, BUT MOST THINGS THAT ARE WORTH IT DO.

AMNA: THE BOOK IS "HOPE FOR CYNICS: THE SURPRISING SCIENCE OF HUMAN GOODNESS."

THE AUTHOR IS JAMIL ZAKI.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

JAMIL: THANK YOU.